Impossible Puzzles

[+m0bean]

I'm relatively new to geocaching, though I'm thoroughly enjoying it, I'm still trying to figure out what things are acceptable or useful. I've encountered some puzzle/mystery caches that are impossible--and by that I don't mean that they are too difficult for me to figure out, I mean that they are solved by acquiring digits from a series of traditional caches, some or all of which have been archived--therefore making the puzzle impossible. Would this be an instance where a NM or NA log should be posted? (I also consider that there may be some people who have already found some or all of the archived caches before, so that the mystery 'final' is still achievable for them--so if it were to be archived, would this perhaps be taking that away from someone who would still want it?) Would it also be generally considered alright to just email the CO or a past finder for the coords for the mystery 'final' caches? I realize that I could just ignore these caches too--but is it helpful to do something about these?

[+WRASTRO]

I'm relatively new to geocaching, though I'm thoroughly enjoying it, I'm still trying to figure out what things are acceptable or useful. I've encountered some puzzle/mystery caches that are impossible--and by that I don't mean that they are too difficult for me to figure out, I mean that they are solved by acquiring digits from a series of traditional caches, some or all of which have been archived--therefore making the puzzle impossible. Would this be an instance where a NM or NA log should be posted? (I also consider that there may be some people who have already found some or all of the archived caches before, so that the mystery 'final' is still achievable for them--so if it were to be archived, would this perhaps be taking that away from someone who would still want it?) Would it also be generally considered alright to just email the CO or a past finder for the coords for the mystery 'final' caches? I realize that I could just ignore these caches too--but is it helpful to do something about these?

If the "impossible" puzzle is still active I would suggest you contact the cache owner for direction on how to proceed. Until you do that you have no real way to determine if you can complete the puzzle or not.

[+Roman!]

You could ask a friend for the final coordinates

[+Harry Dolphin]

There was a local puzzle cache that required finding numbers from several traditional caches. One cache disappeared, as did the CO. It is now impossible to solve. I put NA on the cache. The missing owner has not responded. Stopped caching almost two years ago. It is now archived. As well as the bonus cache, and the missing cache.

[+Team Microdot]

Post a Needs Maintenance log explaining that as far as you can tell this puzzle is unsolvable in the absence of the associated feeder cache(s).

 

If there's no response after a month, post a Needs Archived.

 

That way those who haven't solved it so far will be informed and can avoid wasting time trying to solve it, and those who do have the coords still have the opportunity to go find it.

 

If the CO is now inactive, the chances are that the cache will remain in place anyway - so those who have the coords have lots of time to go and find it as there's nothing to stop them logging the find after the cache is archived.

[+Touchstone]

I would probably begin with a Needs Maintenance log entry in a situation like this, and if there were no response, follow it up with a Needs Archived.

 

I wouldn't be too concerned with folks being in the process of finishing the series up. Chances are the contain will be around for a bit (assuming it's not missing as well), and they can always Log the Archived Listing if they do find the Final after Archival.

[+The Rat]

I'm relatively new to geocaching, though I'm thoroughly enjoying it, I'm still trying to figure out what things are acceptable or useful. I've encountered some puzzle/mystery caches that are impossible--and by that I don't mean that they are too difficult for me to figure out, I mean that they are solved by acquiring digits from a series of traditional caches, some or all of which have been archived--therefore making the puzzle impossible. Would this be an instance where a NM or NA log should be posted? (I also consider that there may be some people who have already found some or all of the archived caches before, so that the mystery 'final' is still achievable for them--so if it were to be archived, would this perhaps be taking that away from someone who would still want it?) Would it also be generally considered alright to just email the CO or a past finder for the coords for the mystery 'final' caches? I realize that I could just ignore these caches too--but is it helpful to do something about these?

It may not always be the case that just because a cache is archived that you cannot "acquire" the digit as you put it. You may be able to get the missing digit(s) from someone who did find that cache earlier. The digit may be written in the final archiving note by the CO. The could be a picture of the cache with the digit visible by one of the finders. If it's a puzzle (I know you specified traditional caches) it may just involve solving a puzzle to get coordinates, without finding the cache. If you go to the previous location of the archived cache, the CO may give you the digit if you email proof, like a photo of the site. Still, your point is valid that a CO should ensure that a puzzle cache is solvable, so in this case, he or she should modify the cache page to substitute another cache or put the missing digits in a hint or in the cache description, etc.

[+The_Incredibles_]

You could ask a friend for the final coordinates

 

WWRD (What would Roman! do?)

 

Seriously, though, if the numbers are missing, you will have to email the CO or other cachers for help.

 

Is the CO still around? What people have done here if caches are missing is just include those numbers on the cache page for the final cache. If the CO's still alive and kicking, you could suggest that.

[+dprovan]

It may be impossible to find the numbers now, but it's possible that many people found the numbers in the past and just haven't gotten to the final. Sometimes a series like that can take a long time to track down. You might not want to rain on their parade. After all, what difference does it make to you? You still won't be able to find it after it's archived. Better to contact the CO -- either privately or through a note to the log -- to see if they'll fill in the missing numbers or will provide some alternative way of getting the answer. If you don't hear from the CO, you might ask previous finders.

 

If you don't hear anything, and it hasn't been found for a year or two, then you can start thinking about posting an NA. Until then, just ignore it.

[+The A-Team]

It may be impossible to find the numbers now, but it's possible that many people found the numbers in the past and just haven't gotten to the final. Sometimes a series like that can take a long time to track down. You might not want to rain on their parade. After all, what difference does it make to you? You still won't be able to find it after it's archived.

Archiving the cache won't rain on their parade. If the CO has left the game*, the cache will still be there to be found and a finder can still log their find online. In effect, nothing would change regarding their experience. The problem is that for anyone who hasn't started the series yet, it's an impossible cache.

 

I'll turn around one of your questions: what difference does it make to someone who can still come up with the coordinates whether it's archived or not? As I said above, they will likely still be able to find and log the cache after it's archived. Getting it archived removes an impossible cache from the map for anyone who hasn't already started it. This way, everyone wins. If it's left on the map, only some people win.

 

*Which I believe is the scenario we're discussing here, otherwise changes can be made to make it not impossible

[+The_Incredibles_]

There was a series here with the exact same problem. CO unresponsive. The whole series got archived by our reviewer, including a traditional that was in good shape. This surprised me. I got the missing numbers from another cacher and went to pick up the pieces. I guess in the end, the archival made sense although I don't like the idea of a cache getting archived and then just sitting there forever as trash.

[+Walts Hunting]

That is what the ignore list is for. Problem goes away and you can move on.

[+dprovan]

I'll turn around one of your questions: what difference does it make to someone who can still come up with the coordinates whether it's archived or not? As I said above, they will likely still be able to find and log the cache after it's archived. Getting it archived removes an impossible cache from the map for anyone who hasn't already started it. This way, everyone wins. If it's left on the map, only some people win.

I certainly understand your point. As it happens, I encountered just such a cache early in my caching career and posted an NA. And despite your logic, people were upset and pleaded that it be retained.

 

The downside of archiving is that the cache disappears from the lists. Instead of people digging it up as you suggest, they'll just forget about it. In addition, once the cache is archived, the container is geolitter and should be collected by the CO or, failing that, the next person in the area. And once it's archived, the final location no longer has the protection of the density rules.

 

The main downside of not archiving is that people see a cache that's impossible for most of them to get. No more of a problem than a kayak cache or, for that matter, a very hard puzzle cache.

 

There was a series here with the exact same problem. CO unresponsive. The whole series got archived by our reviewer, including a traditional that was in good shape. This surprised me. I got the missing numbers from another cacher and went to pick up the pieces. I guess in the end, the archival made sense although I don't like the idea of a cache getting archived and then just sitting there forever as trash.

I've been focusing on the the fact that impossibility depends on what information one has in hand or can get through unusual channels, making it a dubious reason to ask for archival. I don't mean to imply that a series that's falling apart shouldn't be archived, and, in fact, I've been quietly ignoring that fact that the series the OP brings up might already be at that point.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

It's not impossible to solve the puzzle. You could simply keep trying different numbers and seeing if the cache is at the coordinates you come up with. Yeah, I wouldn't do that either, but the puzzle is technically still solvable. Just depends on how badly you want it

[+edscott]

It's not impossible to solve the puzzle. You could simply keep trying different numbers and seeing if the cache is at the coordinates you come up with. Yeah, I wouldn't do that either, but the puzzle is technically still solvable. Just depends on how badly you want it

 

I've done that twice that I can remember. In both cases I was only missing one numeral in the latitude so I started at nn nn.nn0 and carefully walked a bearing toward nn nn.nn9.

[+The A-Team]

That is what the ignore list is for. Problem goes away and you can move on.

No, the problem has been ignored, but it still exists.

 

Your view is a very individualistic one: it no longer affects me, and that's all that matters.

 

However, there's also a geocaching community. In that community, a problem can affect more than one person. As someone who has chosen to join that community, I feel compelled to have problems dealt with for the benefit of the entire community, not just myself.

 

You're entitled to cache the way you want, and I'm fine with that. It just isn't the way I see things.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

That is what the ignore list is for. Problem goes away and you can move on.

No, the problem has been ignored, but it still exists.

 

Your view is a very individualistic one: it no longer affects me, and that's all that matters.

 

However, there's also a geocaching community. In that community, a problem can affect more than one person. As someone who has chosen to join that community, I feel compelled to have problems dealt with for the benefit of the entire community, not just myself.

 

Very well said. If more people actually felt that way, there would be a lot fewer problems.

[+Team Microdot]

That is what the ignore list is for. Problem goes away and you can move on.

No, the problem has been ignored, but it still exists.

 

Your view is a very individualistic one: it no longer affects me, and that's all that matters.

 

However, there's also a geocaching community. In that community, a problem can affect more than one person. As someone who has chosen to join that community, I feel compelled to have problems dealt with for the benefit of the entire community, not just myself.

 

Very well said. If more people actually felt that way, there would be a lot fewer problems.

 

I'm with The A-Team and NYPaddleCacher on this one

 

There will always be issues that can only be resolved by the CO - and those that therefore can't be resolved because the CO doesn't care to resolve them or isn't active any more, and the sensible option here is to move on.

 

But if an opportunity exists to have a positive impact - especially one that will benefit the larger community then why not take that opportunity?

 

Positive action gets my vote over apathy

[+Paganmen]

Any time there is a problem or issue with a cache then a log message is in order. You can contact the CO or post a DNF along with an explanation. If there is no action then request a cache to be archived. There are times when a CO will quit the game but they leave all their active caches out there without maintenance or assistance to other cachers. By rules of geocaching you are not supposed to leave geotrash or abandoned caches out there. If someone is so inclined they could volunteer to adopt abandoned caches and take them over for maintenance or archiving.

[+Harry Dolphin]

If someone is so inclined they could volunteer to adopt abandoned caches and take them over for maintenance or archiving.

 

You cannot adopt caches by missing cache owners. The cache owner has to initiate the cache adoption.

[+LordJeff]

If you can't get help from the CO, then try contacting someone who has found the cache and appears to still be active. Once you find the unobtanium data, post a note to help the next geocacher along. It's likely if the CO isn't responding, they won't delete your note with data either.

[+Team Microdot]

Once you find the unobtanium data, post a note to help the next geocacher along. It's likely if the CO isn't responding, they won't delete your note with data either.

 

Restrictions. Permission to use our services is subject to the following restrictions. Whether these restrictions have been violated shall be determined in our sole discretion. You agree not to:

 

xxiii. Publish on our websites the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the geocache owner.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

[+Lloyd & Harry]

I would just ask if you can post to archive it.