Permission to place a cache - Michigan Q

[Guest Max Wedge]

Seeing as a lot of people have placed caches in Michigan, I'm assuming that someone would know what the rules are for State Forests/State land/County Game areas, etc. or who to contact. Anyone know? (Go easy on me, I'm still a newbie).

Thanks,

MW

[Guest rusty]

All three of my caches are in either State or National forest land along the North Country Trail and I havn't asked permission on any of them. I figure it's easier to be forgiven than get permission. Seriously I've never heard any instances of people getting flak over caches in Michigan but use common sense. Don't place any on Nat'l Parkland or designated Wilderness areas. If a park says stay on trails then don't head off to place a cache.

 

I think if people would use a little common sense in placing and maintaining their caches we would have very little trouble from authorities.

 

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Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page

[Guest Max Wedge]

quote:

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Originally posted by rusty:

All three of my caches are in either State or National forest land along the North Country Trail areas. If a park says stay on trails then don't head off to place a cache.

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I was thinking of State forests mostly, and I was wondering if anyone had any problems or had heard of anything that outright banned it.

I was also considering approaching my sons' teacher who is teaching latitude/longitudes in class, and using a cache and the geocaching website as a teachers aide. (There is a beautiful abandoned orchard behind the school.)

[+Don&Betty]

Took me about a month to get permission to place "Michigan Space Center" on the Jackson Community College grounds. Seems no individual thinks he alone has authority to say yes. So they kick it up to a higher, often group authority. They meet on it and tend to say "no" because they think they, in their exhalted position, would be setting a big precident regarding a new unknown activity. They want to "wait and see". I finally got permssion there. (There's been only 2 finders since September! No great impact on the environment there.)

 

I digress. No I don't know of any blanket permission authorized by anyboty in Michigan. I suppose you can hide on state recreation lands. They permit tree stands and ORV's and horses and things like that.

 

I was denied permision to place a cache on Audubon Society property. I guess they thought the activity would not be in keeping with the purpose for which the land had come to them.

 

I was denied permission to place a cache in a public "nature preserve" in Illinois. Again, a lower-level person thought it would be fine but had to kick it up to a state-level committee. They denied it, saying they had to "wait and see."

 

I sought permission to place one or more caches in Jackson's city parks. The one parks director person even brought it up (I believe) at a city meeting, then said I should present my case in the next meeting, two months later.

 

Seems they either feel they don't have the authority, or if they do, like the committee, they don't want to assume the responsibility to make a committment to authorizing something different.

 

I suppose this is so strange to them because its so unusual for anybody to actually ask permission to do something in a park etc. What gets me is, they hold giant gatherings in the parks, they permit ORV's, jet-skis, logging, mining, grazing, ... but they think it's too much liability, or too much environmental impact for a guy and his kid walking along the path then off into the woods a little ways looking for a concealed box. They say its abandoned trash (though actually it's constantly monitored on the net by the hider). They say it will cause unintended "social paths" (unintended by them that is.)

 

These geocaching things of course seem much worse to them than do the giant festivals and the oil spills and the logging roads and the clearcuts that they do permit the moneyed well-lobbied exploiters to do.

[Zuckerruebensirup]

quote:

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Originally posted by rusty:

I figure it's easier to be forgiven than get permission. [...] Don't place any on Nat'l Parkland or designated Wilderness areas. If a park says stay on trails then don't head off to place a cache.

 

I think if people would use a little common sense in placing and maintaining their caches we would have very little trouble from authorities.

---

 

This describes my viewpoint perfectly.

 

Although, after reading Don&Betty's note that they were specifically denied permission by the Michigan Audubon Society, I now wonder whether it's inappropriate for me to leave the last two caches that I just hid in the Baker Sanctuary south of Bellevue?

 

(In my experience, a large percentage of things we ask permission for get denied, because "No" is the easiest and least risky answer. But for most of those same types of things, if I just go ahead and do them, once the authorities find out, they don't ask me to 'undo' them. Again, it's easier for them to let it go, than to make an issue of it...especially if it's something fairly small, and seems to be working satisfactorily.) When asking permission, the responsibility is on us for convincing them why they should allow an activity. When we do it first, and then get discovered...they tend to ask themselves why they shouldn't allow it. In a sense, it shifts the burden of proof. (Of course there are also the handful of authoritarian people who appear to enjoy weilding their power...and choose to deny things without explanation...just because they can.)

 

I'd rather have us establish a precedent of having caches exist, and showing a history of no negative impact...in order to have some 'evidence' to provide as examples if/when permission is required.

 

I'm curious, Don&Betty, why you've chosen to ask permission in advance for all of your caches (at least that's what it sounds like you've been doing)...and also, everyone's opinion of whether I should remove my caches, now that I have been made aware of a previous precedent by the MAS of disallowing caches? Has the 'ignorance is bliss' excuse been taken away from me...or since I haven't personally been told "no", is it fair for me to continue with my assumption that it's ok until I'm told otherwise?

[+clatmandu]

The state parks don't seem to have any problems with caches. I have one in Highland Rec Area, the first person to look for it got help looking for it when the ranger asked what they were doing.

[+Don&Betty]

Why do I ask permission in advance? I don't know. Actually I don't. In two cases I actually placed the cache, then figured I ought to ask permission before listing it on the net. Didn't get the permission so didn't list them. They're both still out there though, not bothering anybody. Maybe I'll get permission eventually.

 

Why ask? Geochaching.com says you're supposed to. I doubt that hardly anybody does! I've only placed 3 so far, of which only one, "Michigan Space Center" is approved and listed.

 

I've got 10 ammo boxes and a hatful of ideas. They're all pretty tough though, and take a lot of time to plan. I get more fun out of planning them than in seeking and finding them. I plan to put some on the Grand River and on a chain of lakes off the Grand, and in state recreation areas. I won't need permission for those. I really want to do several in the Jackson city parks, but they haven't given permission yet.

 

I wonder if people really want to do tough ones rather than the easy "kiddy" ones. Seems like they don't, since there's so much talk about the numbers found, and the bunches of them found in one day. Nobody's going to find a bunch of mine in one day! They will have experienced an activity in finding any one though.

[Zuckerruebensirup]

quote:

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Originally posted by Don&Betty:

I wonder if people really want to do tough ones rather than the easy "kiddy" ones. Seems like they don't, since there's so much talk about the numbers found, and the bunches of them found in one day. Nobody's going to find a bunch of mine in one day! They will have experienced an activity in finding any one though.

---

 

I think a lot of people get more enjoyment out of the challenging ones...but that many people have trouble finding time to take an entire afternoon (or even all day) away from other responsibilities to dedicate to Geocaching.

 

So, if it means do NO caches, or to do a couple of easy ones...the easy ones end of getting the action.

 

Personally, I have trouble relating with the intense competitiveness that some people display here. "Number of finds" is so very subjective...depending on the difficulty, the average number and distance of caches to people, how many people who were helping to look, whether you used the hints, etc. I think it's nice to be able to track our finds...but in my opinion the "standings" lists are rather pointless. (But hey, if some people get warm fuzzies from seeing their name at the top of a list, who am I to rain on their parade? )

 

Personally, if I find myself rushing through a cache...especially one in a nice area I've never had the chance to see before...just so I have time to "get another" in before the day is done...I know that I'm only cheating myself.

[Zuckerruebensirup]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Don&Betty:

I wonder if people really want to do tough ones rather than the easy "kiddy" ones. Seems like they don't, since there's so much talk about the numbers found, and the bunches of them found in one day. Nobody's going to find a bunch of mine in one day! They will have experienced an activity in finding any one though.

---

 

I think a lot of people get more enjoyment out of the challenging ones...but that many people have trouble finding time to take an entire afternoon (or even all day) away from other responsibilities to dedicate to Geocaching.

 

So, if it means do NO caches, or to do a couple of easy ones...the easy ones end of getting the action.

 

Personally, I have trouble relating with the intense competitiveness that some people display here. "Number of finds" is so very subjective...depending on the difficulty, the average number and distance of caches to people, how many people who were helping to look, whether you used the hints, etc. I think it's nice to be able to track our finds...but in my opinion the "standings" lists are rather pointless. (But hey, if some people get warm fuzzies from seeing their name at the top of a list, who am I to rain on their parade? )

 

Personally, if I find myself rushing through a cache...especially one in a nice area I've never had the chance to see before...just so I have time to "get another" in before the day is done...I know that I'm only cheating myself.

[+Rusty & Libby]

Getting a bit off topic here, but we need MORE of the challanging caches. As of last fall there were only a handfull of Michigan cachers with over 20 finds and now there are about 50. Tough caches are not the best first choice for newbies and thats who account for most finds. They find 3 or 4 caches and are never heard from again. After you gain experience the caches you remember are the ones that you really had to work for or had unique charachteristics to make them special.

 

I placed a difficult cache last summer that involved solving a puzzle onsite, at first I thought nobody wanted to do it. It had almost no activity compared to a 1/1 cache about .75 miles away. Recently as more and more cachers have passed the newbie stage it is being visited by some that skipped it the first time through.

 

I plan to do a couple very difficult ones this year. I don't know if they will be hunted or not but I enjoy the planning and the people that do go looking appreciate the time taken to create a cache that is unique and challanging.

 

Don&Betty: Don't dispair, place the cache. I have not hunted in the Jackson area yet but when I do, I would definitly try the one you are talking about. I'm sure others will too.

 

Rusty...

 

Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page

[Dinoprophet]

From the DNR FAQ

 

Question

What is the DNR's policy about using state lands for playing the new game of geocaching (www.geocaching.com)?

 

Answer

The DNR has no problem with individuals playing geocaching on State land, as long as the activity does not become an event with large numbers of players. An event would require a DNR permit and include permit fees. We are especially pleased with the Cache In, Trash Out policy advocated by the official web page www.geocaching.com.

 

I've just sent an email to Oakland County Parks (my area) to see what their policy is.