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Geocaches In MN State Parks - Illegal

skyrover

By skyrover
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skyrover

skyrover

Posted
Posted

This was just posted on the DNR web site...

 

Geocaching prohibited in the Minnesota State Park system

 

Due to concerns related to natural resource protection, visitor safety, staff workloads and liability, geocaches are not permitted on lands administered by the Minnesota State Park System. Caches that were placed in state parks without permission must be removed by July 1, 2002. After that time, they will be considered abandoned property.

 

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/state_parks/index.html

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kenny&lisa

kenny&lisa

Posted
Posted

It seems the government is never happy with anything that they didn't come up with, or are not able to tax. The caches would go missing if kids or some jerk not knowing what it was, were to find it anyway. I doubt if the park board is watching this site to find the caches anyhow. So just hide them a bit better off the beaten path. Next time I am in the area, I will be sure to hide one there just for kicks. All property left for any length of time is usually deemed abandoned, within legal discretion.

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Tree Hugger

Tree Hugger

Posted
Posted

If everyone picked a park and placed a large number of virtual caches in there, say 50 or 60, then maybe the parks dept. would get the message that the alternative is worse than working with geocachers to agree on a sensible policy.

 

I see that Ramsey County Parks Dept. Has done just that.

 

No one ever got anything changed by rolling over and playing dead. Take positive action before this all gets out of hand.

 

TH

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Oinos

+Oinos

Posted
Posted

The best way, in my opinion, to show the DNR that geocaching should be allowed in the state parks is by working with the managers of the county parks. Ramsey county is embracing the sport, and that's huge victory for geocaching. If the county parks report to the DNR saying that they like geocaching in their parks, the DNR is more likely to embrace it as well.

 

According to emails that folks have posted, the door is open at the DNR. They're willing to talk, but their stance right now is to ban geocaching. If we prove that geocaching is a benefit to everyone, perhaps next year they'll lift the ban.

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TeamCNJC

+TeamCNJC

Posted
Posted

quote:
Don't use the name of the park in the cache name. They will search for names. Use a waypoint outside of the park that you must find to get the coordinate of the actual cache or make stages to it. ...

 

... Let's hope they don't post a sign at the park entrance. "Check in your GPSR before entering"

 

If they're going to search for a name, then they'll probably look for a certain radius around the park using the park's coordinates. The tools that geocaching.com has to make it easier on us to find caches makes it easy for the rangers as well.

 

I'm not trying to pick on this poster, or anyone in particular, but I'm not sure that the message that I've quoted above (and others here and in the GEM forum as well) is the right message that we, as geocachers, want to send. This is not a case of "do you agree with me or don't you understand." The park services has rules that their workers believe they need to enforce. Making it harder for them to enforce the rules doesn't make it right for us to break the rules.

 

There are, however, ways around the rules. The "without permission" description of "abandoned" property gives us hope. With the permission of the park ranger/supervisor/DNR, we can legally place traditional geocaches. We just haven't got to the permission stage yet.

 

If you look closely at the announcement on the DNR page, the reference is to "geocaching" in general, but the part of the statement that quotes the rules only prohibits placing of traditional caches. So, if we're going to go to the extreme of placing multi-stage virtual/micro offset caches to culminate in a traditional cache within park boundaries, as has been suggested, why not make the final cache virtual as well? Or better yet, use the trail signs, historical markers, and other permanent, public facilities as a code-type of virtual cache. (If you're really into the toys and trinkets, the final coordinates could be to the gift shop - "took a polished rock and a bumper sticker, left an imprint of my Visa card" icon_biggrin.gif )

 

We need to continue the positive dialogue that many on this board have initiated. I think, IMHO, we need to limit the talk of how we're going to find ways around the rules in order to get our way. Otherwise, we may see signs in the future advising us to "leave your GPSR in your car."

 

My 2 cents...

 

-Craig from TeamCNJC

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TeamCNJC

+TeamCNJC

Posted
Posted

quote:
Don't use the name of the park in the cache name. They will search for names. Use a waypoint outside of the park that you must find to get the coordinate of the actual cache or make stages to it. ...

 

... Let's hope they don't post a sign at the park entrance. "Check in your GPSR before entering"

 

If they're going to search for a name, then they'll probably look for a certain radius around the park using the park's coordinates. The tools that geocaching.com has to make it easier on us to find caches makes it easy for the rangers as well.

 

I'm not trying to pick on this poster, or anyone in particular, but I'm not sure that the message that I've quoted above (and others here and in the GEM forum as well) is the right message that we, as geocachers, want to send. This is not a case of "do you agree with me or don't you understand." The park services has rules that their workers believe they need to enforce. Making it harder for them to enforce the rules doesn't make it right for us to break the rules.

 

There are, however, ways around the rules. The "without permission" description of "abandoned" property gives us hope. With the permission of the park ranger/supervisor/DNR, we can legally place traditional geocaches. We just haven't got to the permission stage yet.

 

If you look closely at the announcement on the DNR page, the reference is to "geocaching" in general, but the part of the statement that quotes the rules only prohibits placing of traditional caches. So, if we're going to go to the extreme of placing multi-stage virtual/micro offset caches to culminate in a traditional cache within park boundaries, as has been suggested, why not make the final cache virtual as well? Or better yet, use the trail signs, historical markers, and other permanent, public facilities as a code-type of virtual cache. (If you're really into the toys and trinkets, the final coordinates could be to the gift shop - "took a polished rock and a bumper sticker, left an imprint of my Visa card" icon_biggrin.gif )

 

We need to continue the positive dialogue that many on this board have initiated. I think, IMHO, we need to limit the talk of how we're going to find ways around the rules in order to get our way. Otherwise, we may see signs in the future advising us to "leave your GPSR in your car."

 

My 2 cents...

 

-Craig from TeamCNJC

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TeamCNJC

+TeamCNJC

Posted
Posted

Pennsylvania has recently come up with a policy that approves geocaching in PA State Parks, with permission. The thread describing the policy can be found here. I'm sure that they don't have any more resources than MN does. Any other states that have come up with a policy? Maybe our response can be "You don't have to study geocaching in State Parks - it's already been done in PA, etc."

 

-Craig/TeamCNJC

 

... Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--

I took off through the thorns, chest high, ...

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Dinoprophet

Dinoprophet

Posted
Posted

I thought you Minnesotans might like to know that geocaching is approved in State Parks here in Michigan. Having a list of states that have approved geocaching should prove beneficial as you discuss the issue with your DNR. Here is the Michigan DNR FAQ; search for "geocaching" for their statement:

http://midnr.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/MiDNR.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php

 

I do urge you to *discuss* it with them and not resort to some of the guerrilla tactics I see listed here. Giving geocachers a roguish image is more likely to prompt the closing of more areas than to open areas that are already closed.

 

Recently, some caches in a Manistee National Forest in MI were shut down. But the concerned parties got together with the authorities and now certain areas of the Forest are now open to our sport. Note that this is a National Forest, and those are as a general rule strictly closed to geocaching. If it can be done there, I'm sure you can bring it back to your state parks.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Dinoprophet

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irvingdog

irvingdog

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by dinoprophet:

I do urge you to *discuss* it with them and not resort to some of the guerrilla tactics I see listed here. Giving geocachers a roguish image is more likely to prompt the closing of more areas than to open areas that are already closed.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Dinoprophet

Amen Dino. Lets try to make this a major emphasis at the GEM picnic. Oh, BTW, it is starting to get difficult to track down the official info for the picnic. How about a dated "update" both here and at the GEM forum.

 

>

 

boo2.jpg

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irvingdog

irvingdog

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by dinoprophet:

I do urge you to *discuss* it with them and not resort to some of the guerrilla tactics I see listed here. Giving geocachers a roguish image is more likely to prompt the closing of more areas than to open areas that are already closed.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Dinoprophet

Amen Dino. Lets try to make this a major emphasis at the GEM picnic. Oh, BTW, it is starting to get difficult to track down the official info for the picnic. How about a dated "update" both here and at the GEM forum.

 

>

 

boo2.jpg

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Salvelinus

+Salvelinus

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by TeamCNJC:

Pennsylvania has recently come up with a policy that approves geocaching in PA State Parks, with permission. The thread describing the policy can be found http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=1640962783&m=9620972115. I'm sure that they don't have any more resources than MN does. Any other states that have come up with a policy? Maybe our response can be "You don't have to study geocaching in State Parks - it's already been done in PA, etc."

 

-Craig/TeamCNJC

 

 

I wouldn't consider what PA has done a policy. They (The Pa Dept of Conservation and Natural Resources) have developed a form for geocache approval on State Parks to be used as Park Managers see fit. A Park Manager is not required to use it, if he/she is comfortable with letting geocachers place caches on their park.

 

In your defense...the post you referenced is an "evolving post". Interested readers of this thread should follow it.

 

Smoochnme

 

FYI: Almost 1/3 of Pennsylvania is covered by State Forest and State Parks. Mostly State Forest. I've visited MN quite a bit and believe that the public resouces are quite different for each state. Imagine the fun if we could geocache in the BWCAW!

 

goldfish.gif

"When your learning to take, the path at your pace...

 

Every road is worth your while"

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syd_b_lives_on

syd_b_lives_on

Posted
Posted

First of all, excuse the avatar. I changed it awhile ago but it hasn't updated for some reason.

 

In MN I do believe definite no-no's are state parks, national parks, and national forests. As of right now, I see that caches are still in the state parks and are still being found. The Blue Mounds cache page one was found only a week ago.

 

[This message was edited by Syd on July 19, 2002 at 02:33 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by Syd on July 19, 2002 at 02:34 AM.]

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TeamCNJC

+TeamCNJC

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by smoochnme:

I wouldn't consider what PA has done a policy. They (The Pa Dept of Conservation and Natural Resources) have developed a form for geocache approval on State Parks to be used as Park Managers see fit. A Park Manager is not required to use it, if he/she is comfortable with letting geocachers place caches on their park.

 

Actually, it IS a policy: Geocaching is allowed if approved by the local park management. In MN we would love to have someone is St. Paul tell us that it is up to the local guys to make a decision - they're reachable. Right now, the MN DNR policy is "NO," and the response to opening a dialogue with the DNR is "No thank you." Also, the "resources" I was referring to is the time and manpower to study geocaching to see if it will work in MN state parks. I'm sure that the PA DCNR resources are not the same as they were a few years ago. I know that the natural resources are vastly different from state to state.

 

We'll continue watching what's going on in PA from afar. The direction you're moving is a lot better than here in MN.

 

quote:
I've visited MN quite a bit and believe that the public resouces are quite different for each state. Imagine the fun if we could geocache in the BWCAW!

 

The BWCA falls under the jurisdiction of the Wilderness Protection Act, and is part of the Superior National Forest. Two strikes against geocaching. Personally, when I go to the BWCA, I take my GPS as an emergency backup to map and compass, and probably wouldn't feel right about finding Tupperware just off the portage trail.

 

-Craig/TeamCNJC

 

... Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--

I took off through the thorns, chest high, ...

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Dawgies

+Dawgies

Posted
Posted

Received this one today.

 

************************

You are very welcome on the response. I like having some communication, like this, when I can find the time to catch up on it. I don't have any particular thoughts on others that you might contact. I will pretty much take care of keeping our staff advised what is going on, and, eventually, I would be the one to pull some folks together to look at the activity and how we would go about approaching it. So, I think we are well covered internally and know of the interest of geo-cachers in the activity. We just need to buy some time until we can move it up in priorities and make sure that we have the resources to take it on in the shape that we have to put it in to make it work as we will need it to. Thanks.

 

Ron Hains [ron.hains@dnr.state.mn.us]

 

*************************************

 

Where there's communication ~ There's hope! icon_smile.gif

 

~Honest Value Never Fails~

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Dawgies

+Dawgies

Posted
Posted

Received this one today.

 

************************

You are very welcome on the response. I like having some communication, like this, when I can find the time to catch up on it. I don't have any particular thoughts on others that you might contact. I will pretty much take care of keeping our staff advised what is going on, and, eventually, I would be the one to pull some folks together to look at the activity and how we would go about approaching it. So, I think we are well covered internally and know of the interest of geo-cachers in the activity. We just need to buy some time until we can move it up in priorities and make sure that we have the resources to take it on in the shape that we have to put it in to make it work as we will need it to. Thanks.

 

Ron Hains [ron.hains@dnr.state.mn.us]

 

*************************************

 

Where there's communication ~ There's hope! icon_smile.gif

 

~Honest Value Never Fails~

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15Tango

+15Tango

Posted
Posted

quote:
Okay I here that lands andmistered by the MN State Park System include State Forests too, what else does it include...does this include like wayside rests even???

I think rest areas are administered by MNDOT--they seem to have no problem taking over a rest area, closing it down, and parking their construction equipment there for the duration of whatever construction project is nearby. All the rest areas I've been to in the state have a caretaker, but I've never looked close enough at their uniforms to determine what agency they work for. But there are caches at rest areas all across the nation, including Minnesota, and I haven't heard of any problems with these caches. 15T

 

www.1800goguard.com

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Jaycookestaff

Jaycookestaff

Posted
Posted

You may not be aware of this but the State of Minnesota has banned geocaching in their State parks. Any geocaches found will be removed. Please discourage your members to refrain from placing them in any MN state parks. It creates extra work for an all ready over stretched staff. Not only in removing the caches but in undoing the damage that the people placing and searching for them do to the area. We have trails for a reason we want people to walk on them not off of them. When people place a geocache off of a trail they mey be doing so in a sensitive area causing damage to fragile plants or the surrounding area. In the park where I work we have a problem with erosion and with people walking all over off of trails they damage the ground cover that has been placed in areas to help prevent erosion. Also it is a safety issue. We have the trails so that people walk in areas that are safe for them to walk. Not through poison Ivy or other plants. Or along an unstable river bank or rock formation. Also we don't know what people will put in the caches, it seems to me that it is a great place to plant dangerous things. So please help us in discouraging people from placing caches in our State Parks.

 

JayCookeStaff

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bk11

bk11

Posted
Posted

I really like the logs you left on the cache pages, Jay Cooke Staff.

 

Ash Ridge Trail

Grand Portage

4 Sisters

 

quote:
July 28 by Jaycookestaff (3 found)

Hello I work at the park and this cache has been found and removed. It is illegal to place cache's in the park and any found will be removed. If you don't like it tough it is a safety as well as environmental issue. We can't have people wandering through the woods off of trails looking for these things.

 

Looks like you deleted/changed them now I guess.

 

Why won't you answer the email I sent you? You're a representative of the park and you tell us "If you don't like it tough"??

 

And this?

quote:
"If you are caught placing them you will be arrested for tresspassing just to be forwarned. We have rules in place to protect our natural resources so if you want to litter place your crap somewhere else."

 

no class. *shrug*

 

My Geojournal: Bump On A Log

**NEW: MN Geocaching Group GEM

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TeamVE

+TeamVE

Posted
Posted

Just My 2 cents worth

 

Just for an open and honest record: here is a transcript of an email I sent to 'JayCookeStaff' after reading KingBoreas's log threatening to place 10 caches in the park:

 

----BOM (beginning of message)

 

Dear Mr. Westerberg,

 

Since I cannot be certain that you are w atching the commentary currently going on within the geocaching community, I am taking the time to write you this letter.

 

While I am disappointed by the stance and attitude displayed by your postings, I do not aggree with King Boreas an d his angry response.

 

While your posts were noted and being commented on by users from Washington to Maine, the majority of the caching community, such as in Pennsylvania and Virgina where geocaching has become and accepted use of state park land, are me rely disappointed in such behaviour from a state employee and only desire to improve the understanding and cooperation between the geocaching community and responsible state agencies. (I believe I can connect you with information about those states progra ms for granting geocaching permits if you are interested).

 

That aside, in my efforts to understand the applicable statutes, I would like to know what statute you base your threat to have a tax paying, state park permit carrying member of the general publ ic arrested for trespassing on.

 

So, once again, in closing:

 

Please note, that of the several hundred people who read and were offended by your attitude and comments, the vast majority continue to work within the system, without threatening reprisal (aka 'I've got 10 caches with your name on them) to reach a point where there can be an agreement and understanding that geocaching is a reasonable recreational activity that can continue in a safe, environmentally friendly manner.

 

"Cache in, Trash Out"

 

LanceVE for TeamVE

 

-----EOM

 

PS. In my searches of state statues, it seems that under the section dealing with abandoned property, that if they can identify the owner of the property, they are REQUIRED by 2001 Statute 16B.25 Sub 2 ( http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/16B/25.html ) to notify the owner (by registered mail of all things) and provide the opportunity for the owner to reclaim the property (unfortunately to do so, said owner may be charged the cost of them going out to remove it)

 

[This message was edited by Team VE on August 01, 2002 at 06:48 AM.]

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briansnat

+briansnat

Posted
Posted

Don't you get it? This Jay Cooke Staff is a fraud. No professional would use the language he did in the logs and his grammar is barely high school level. Park rangers need a college degree. This "JayCookeStaff" is probably some snotnosed, 16 year old with too much time on his hands and getting a good laugh at all the people who ernestly attempt to respond to him.

 

My bet is that the caches are still there and intact. In fact one was found AFTER it was reportedly removed.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

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