Religious Material in GeoCaches

[+popokiiti]

I don't like the idea of anyone forcing their views on me, be it religion or politics. I don't like seeing advertizing either, but it isn't my cache so not my job to clean it up of these things. However, if I came across something pornographic, that I would dispose of in case kids were the next finders of the cache.

[+narcissa]

I don't like the idea of anyone forcing their views on me, be it religion or politics. I don't like seeing advertizing either, but it isn't my cache so not my job to clean it up of these things. However, if I came across something pornographic, that I would dispose of in case kids were the next finders of the cache.

 

Why draw the line at pornography? If religious tracts are okay because other cachers might like them, then why isn't porn?

 

I really don't want my kid seeing any of this stuff in a cache. At least I can rationally explain porn if my kid glimpses it by accident.

[jholly]

I don't like the idea of anyone forcing their views on me, be it religion or politics. I don't like seeing advertizing either, but it isn't my cache so not my job to clean it up of these things. However, if I came across something pornographic, that I would dispose of in case kids were the next finders of the cache.

Didn't read what Lep said? You shouldn't just take pornographic materials, instead you should trade for them. Perhaps some really nice religious tracks wouild be a good trade.

[+narcissa]

I don't like the idea of anyone forcing their views on me, be it religion or politics. I don't like seeing advertizing either, but it isn't my cache so not my job to clean it up of these things. However, if I came across something pornographic, that I would dispose of in case kids were the next finders of the cache.

Didn't read what Lep said? You shouldn't just take pornographic materials, instead you should trade for them. Perhaps some really nice religious tracks wouild be a good trade.

 

I'd go with some nice health class brochures about VD.

[+funkymunkyzone]

I don't like the idea of anyone forcing their views on me, be it religion or politics. I don't like seeing advertizing either, but it isn't my cache so not my job to clean it up of these things. However, if I came across something pornographic, that I would dispose of in case kids were the next finders of the cache.

Didn't read what Lep said? You shouldn't just take pornographic materials, instead you should trade for them. Perhaps some really nice religious tracks wouild be a good trade.

 

I'd go with some nice health class brochures about VD.

 

Or perhaps a condom...

[etarace]

I don't like the idea of anyone forcing their views on me, be it religion or politics. I don't like seeing advertizing either, but it isn't my cache so not my job to clean it up of these things. However, if I came across something pornographic, that I would dispose of in case kids were the next finders of the cache.

Didn't read what Lep said? You shouldn't just take pornographic materials, instead you should trade for them. Perhaps some really nice religious tracks wouild be a good trade.

 

I'd go with some nice health class brochures about VD.

 

Or perhaps a condom...

 

but it isn't my cache so not my job to clean it up of these things.

There was a guy who used to hide some spectacular caches in the area where I currently live. He would get so raging mad if religious material was left in his caches, and would immediately remove it and complain in his "maintenance performed" log about it. That is perfectly fine for him to do, since it is his own cache and he has control over what is contained in it and does regular checks to ensure that his caches are of the quality he desires.

[+niraD]

There have been a couple times when I've found graphically offensive material in a cache. I traded for it, which wasn't hard given that it wasn't worth much to begin with. Once I had traded for it, it was mine, and I could dispose of it as I saw fit.

 

That works for me. And it's basically the same thing I do with any inappropriate item in a cache. (Although usually it's food, trash, scented items, etc.)

[+WRASTRO]

I always go with the philosophy that other cachers may and will have differing opinions and outlooks on life than I do. If another cacher thought something was worth leaving in a cache I am generally fine with that. I will remove stinky, smelly, moldy stuff, but I will never remove printed material from a cache unless it clearly violates the guidelines. I will remove porn if I find it but I will not remove political or religious materials, neither of which I believe are inherently offensive. And guess what? In 10+ years I can't remember ever removing material from a cache because I thought the material was clearly offensive to the next finder of the cache.

[+Snoogans]

but it isn't my cache so not my job to clean it up of these things.

There was a guy who used to hide some spectacular caches in the area where I currently live. He would get so raging mad if religious material was left in his caches, and would immediately remove it and complain in his "maintenance performed" log about it. That is perfectly fine for him to do, since it is his own cache and he has control over what is contained in it and does regular checks to ensure that his caches are of the quality he desires.

 

The mind boggles at how a slip of paper has the capability to offend someone into a rage when the same person would probably politely take the slip of paper when thrust upon them by a person and then quietly trash it at the first opportunity.

 

Ah the courage a computer screen seems to give some folks.

 

Theism is most definitely not for me, but I understand and appreciate people's need to share their interests and beliefs even if I am not interested. It would be great if everyone joined my FB Agnostic Jihad: Stubbornly Refusing To Define The Undefinable, but only 42 people have joined me so far. We Agnostics are terrible organizers. We're just not joiners. Now tell me.... How many people have you tried to convert into geocachers? Were any of them offended that you wanted them to go outdoors and look for repurposed household containers with slips of paper and broken McToys in them? It's a shade off of religion but the concept is the same.

 

People want to share and they want to increase the number of like minded people in their community.

[team tisri]

As far as I'm concerned, geocaching just isn't the place for this stuff. Why take something lighthearted and fun, and turn it into something contentious and divisive?

 

I don't want anybody to feel offended or alienated by something I've placed in a geocache. I certainly wouldn't want a parent to open up a geocache and feel like it wasn't appropriate for their kids because of something I dropped off. That's how those materials make me feel, and I just don't understand what kind of person wants me to feel like that when I'm geocaching. It makes me really sad.

 

I guess each to their own. But if you want to take that line of thinking then a coupon offering 50c off a Big Mac might offend a Hindu who regards cows as sacred. A flyer for the local butcher might offend a Muslim or a Jew who wants to maintain their halal/kosher lifestyle. If we get worried as to who might be offended by something we end up not doing anything.

 

If you don't like the material, don't read it. If you want to put in your own material, put it in. If the cache is so full you can't get everything back in it, take whatever is big and bulky and either chuck it out or move it to another cache. If something made of paper is wet and soggy, chuck it out.

 

Honestly, this kind of complaint sounds like people of one belief are desperately insecure if they encounter material presenting some other belief. I never could figure out why people seem to feel so threatened by those who hold a different belief system.

[+Foothills Drifter]

Howdy......

I couldn't agree with you more...

 

Vern / Foothills Drifter...

[+briansnat]

 

As a veteran geocacher, I rarely trade for anything anymore. Find cache, sign log, leave the toys for the kiddies. As a Christian geocacher, the ONE type of trade item that will attract my attention is a religious-themed item. If you are removing these items, then you should be leaving something of equal or greater value.

 

I've thinking about it and Lep is right you should trade for those religious pamphlets. I'm thinking about getting some nice Islamic or Buddhism pamphlets and using those for trade items for the Christian pamphlets. And when I find a cache with an Islamic pamphlets I can use the Christian pamphlets I've been collecting.

 

But I'm still struggling on what would be a good trade item for a condom.

 

A few years ago I was caching in Virginia and found a cache in a church parking lot filled with nothing but tracts promoting that church's fundamental form of Christianity. I went to the Internet and gathered as many propaganda pamphlets as I could find promoting non-fundie Christian sects, non-Christian religions and atheist groups and went back to make my trade.

[+mrreet]

I remove ANYTHING I consider against the rules to include:

 

Explosives

fireworks

ammunition

lighters

knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools)

drugs

alcohol

any illicit material

food

 

If the caches themselves are not allowed to be commercial or solicit (religious, political, charitable or social agendas), then per ("Geocaching is intended to be an enjoyable, family-friendly hobby, not a platform for an agenda." From the guidelines) I interpret that to mean that the contents should not violate the "commercial or soliciting" rules.

 

Therefore I also remove all propaganda. (including religious and commercial) If I found a valid coupon I would think about leaving it in the cache but to date I have not found one that wasn't soggy or expired.

 

CITO

Edited June 4, 2014 by mrreet

[team tisri]

I remove ANYTHING I consider against the rules to include:

 

Explosives

fireworks

ammunition

lighters

knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools)

drugs

alcohol

any illicit material

food

 

If the caches themselves are not allowed to be commercial or solicit (religious, political, charitable or social agendas), then per ("Geocaching is intended to be an enjoyable, family-friendly hobby, not a platform for an agenda." From the guidelines) I interpret that to mean that the contents should not violate the "commercial or soliciting" rules.

 

Therefore I also remove all propaganda. (including religious and commercial) If I found a valid coupon I would think about leaving it in the cache but to date I have not found one that wasn't soggy or expired.

 

CITO

 

I wouldn't see a leaflet as using geocaching as a platform for an agenda any more than leaving a book or CD in a larger cache. Many years ago I picked up one of those little puzzles with moving squares from a cache. I traded reluctantly because the only suitable trade item I had was one I didn't really want to part with but I did particularly want this puzzle. The logo when the puzzle is complete is for Enron. Should I have just taken it, regarding it as being advertising material?

 

If people are going to remove anything they dislike because they regard it as "pushing an agenda" where does it stop? I must admit I quite like briansnat's approach of finding alternative literature and trading, for those who really feel the need to do something.

[+narcissa]

Honestly, this kind of complaint sounds like people of one belief are desperately insecure if they encounter material presenting some other belief. I never could figure out why people seem to feel so threatened by those who hold a different belief system.

 

I just don't think geocaching is the place for it. There's nothing I can do about it, but it does make me a little sad when it happens because it's supposed to be a game, not a platform.

[+The Jester]

Nobody said it was against the rules. I've already stated, in fact, that it isn't. All I'm saying is that it's rude, it's pushy, and it's not the place.

And you are being just as rude and pushy with your beliefs: "It's not against the rules, but I don't like it so since my opinion is better I can do what I want with [...]".

[+The Jester]

I was being funny and mocking those kind of people... I find them very annoying. I am agnostic and I don't care what people believe, but just keep them to yourself because I do.

The thing is, some of those beliefs instruct them to share and not "keep them to yourself".

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Really? Come on, guys, this is a hobby. Nobody wants to find religious material in their cache.

 

I do. A person's religion is pivotal to that person's character. Assault their religion and you assault them, personally. I like the people who take the time to visit my caches. If they want to leave something that they feel is important to them, then I'm more than happy to let my cache become a reflection of the people who visit.

 

Its not religion things that bug me, its the attitude of some people think they got to push their belief everywhere they go.

 

People will push whatever they think is important. The more important they think it is, the more opportunities they will find or make to "push" those ideas (never mind that no one can actually force you to read the thing. You know what it is when you see it. If you take the trouble to actually read it then it's you're own fault).

 

This, this is exactly what it is. It's not religion specifically, it's people who see a geocache and say, "Yes, this is the place for me to proselytize."

 

I just don't understand that outlook. It seems narcissistic. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Narcissism is a love of self. This is the love of an idea. When you really love an idea, you'll spread it at any available opportunity.

 

Like I always say, if you have a pamphlet and you want to leave it, then be my guest. If you see a pamphlet and you want to remove it, then be my guest, but understand that the removal of the pamphlet is just as much a battle of ideas as the placing of the pamphlet. Don't trash somebody's pamphlet and think what a loser he is for pushing his ideas on you, because the act of trashing the pamphlet is every bit the same as pushing your ideas on whoever finds the cache after you.

[+vw_k]

Nobody is forcing me to read the stats on the back of a baseball card. Nobody is forcing you (or anyone) to read a religious tract.

 

The difference here is that baseball players actually exist and the stats on the back are things that actually happened!

[+baloo&bd]

Nobody is forcing me to read the stats on the back of a baseball card. Nobody is forcing you (or anyone) to read a religious tract.

 

The difference here is that baseball players actually exist and the stats on the back are things that actually happened!

 

So where is the difference?

[+ihcScout345]

It's said religion and politics do not belong in mixed company. The company a cach is going to see is defiantly going to be mixed. So perhaps it's not against any rules, but still bad manners. It's the same thing as someone talking loudly on a cell phone in a restaurant. The person on the phone thinks his conversation is worthy of being heard by everyone around, and everyone around wants to shove the phone someplace that probably shouldn't be mentioned.

[4wheelin_fool]

 

This right here is the best advice on the thread so far:

 

People who clean the stuff out to protect others, are not much different than the people putting the stuff in there, who are trying to protect those that they believe are going to burn in hades.

 

And they are also very similar to the religious types by holding so much power to a piece of paper. Whether that paper contains verbiage from a few thousand years ago, or some recent verbiage condemning anyone for not holding their religious beliefs, it still is just a mass produced piece of paper. It is not addressed to anyone personally, so nobody should take it that way.

 

So we have the people who wish to protect others and get emotional over a mass produced piece of paper in direct conflict with others who wish to protect others from this and get emotional over a mass produced tract. The 2 types are cut from the same cloth. For every Yin there is a Yang.

 

I know that a happy fun filled day geocaching should not be interrupted with spam which tries to make you feel fearful, sad, guilty, or judges you. But it's only because you allow it to. God has a plan for these people, and a path. The ones that try to make others feel fearful, sad, guilty, and who sit in judgment of others because of the symbols that they use. Man cannot be saved by good works or deeds, so they believe that nothing good they achieve will do anything. Sin is converted to a binary form which reduces everyone to the same level, from the mass murderer of yesterday, to the chap who stole an extra sip of coffee at the convenience store 22 years ago. It is only through the idolatry of one that they believe can save them. Ephesians 2:8-9 Galatians 2:16 Titus 3:5 Romans 11:6 Galatians 2:21

If it is possible for us to get to Heaven by living a good and upright life, then Jesus died for nothing

 

Just say you are sorry and chant those magic words and that's it. Yes, it is a path provided by God. It's not the path that they are expecting, nor the God they thought..

Edited June 5, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool

[team tisri]

Honestly, this kind of complaint sounds like people of one belief are desperately insecure if they encounter material presenting some other belief. I never could figure out why people seem to feel so threatened by those who hold a different belief system.

 

I just don't think geocaching is the place for it. There's nothing I can do about it, but it does make me a little sad when it happens because it's supposed to be a game, not a platform.

 

I don't think geocaching is the place for it, if you're going to share what you believe in (whether the topic is politics, religion, which baseball team is the best or how much mustard to put in a beef sandwich) it makes more sense to me to talk to someone in person rather than leave a flyer for a random person to find. But not everybody thinks the way I do.

 

I don't see leaving a Bible, a Quran or a Gita as pushing the respective faith any more than a voucher for a free happy meal pushes McDonalds. People can take it if it interests them, people can leave it if it doesn't.

[team tisri]

Its not religion things that bug me, its the attitude of some people think they got to push their belief everywhere they go.

 

What's the difference between leaving a religious tract and leaving a voucher for a Big Mac? Both are arguably assuming a future finder will be interested in what you left behind. Maybe somebody really fancies a Big Mac. Maybe somebody considers McDonalds to be the worst corporation to disgrace the face of the earth. Maybe somebody is searching for a deeper meaning in their life and appreciates the religious tract. Maybe they just got out of an abusive experience within that religion and would rather stick pins in their eyes than read the tract. What's the difference? If they like it they can take it away, if they dislike it they can ignore it. At least if you're not interested in the tract in a cache you can just ignore it, which is a whole lot less irritating than trying to tell the Mormons in the marketplace that I'm not interested in what they're offering.

 

Does freedom only apply to people who think the same as we do?

[4wheelin_fool]

Ironically, they are instructed not to judge anyone

Not to turn this into a religious argument, but Christianity does not believe you're not supposed to judge anyone. I can't speak of the other religions.

 

Not according to Matthew 7.1 "Judge not, lest ye be judged". As well as Romans 14:1 and many other verses.

 

That's the entire shtick. They are NOT supposed to judge anyone, however that's the first thing that offends people, that they are being judged by them. People open a cache and find a very nice generic message that says that they are going to hades. There is the irony.

Edited June 4, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool

[+TriciaG]

And there are many, many verses that say the opposite to "don't judge". Context is key. If we don't judge anyone, how do we do what Matthew 7:2-6 says? If we don't judge at all, how can we determine our brother has a speck in Matthew 7:5: "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

 

Romans 14:1 is talking about disputable matters. I cannot say that Christians who are football fans are not really Christians. I CAN say that if you don't believe in Jesus, you're not a Christian.

 

Be careful how you throw verses around.

 

HOWEVER, this is getting off topic. Debate about Christianity's tenets doesn't belong here, methinks. And please, try to keep the insults down. No one in this thread has insulted the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Agnostic Jihad's beliefs; please refrain from insulting mine. Insult the tracts. Insult those who place tracts in caches. But please don't insult Christians in toto.

Edited June 4, 2014 by TriciaG

[+chrisandjanet]

I've probably seen only one or two pamphlets in caches since I've been doing this. I don't see the point of them, since I have to believe (perhaps naively) that most people have at least heard of The Bible (in whatever flavor you choose) and if they want to read something from it, they are pretty much available everywhere.

 

I'm also not terribly offended by them. I know what I believe (mostly that I don't know what to believe, so I'm kinda in the Snoogans camp here) and some random slip of paper is not going to change my mind.

 

I have known a couple of folks who carried these types of materials to pass out at any opportunity. To me they seemed less worried about legitimately helping people; it was almost a sort of keeping score thing - "I handed out 28 tracts today, how many did you hand out?" Almost as if their place in the heirarchy of the afterlife were determined by how many "souls they saved." (Almost like a pyramid scheme - maybe the Pharoes had it right!)

 

So what about religious "trade items"? Pocket Testaments, not just pamphlets; Tibetan prayer flags, Buddahs (are they religious?). Things that you aren't like to use the wet and moldy excuse to dispose of. Trade items or trash? What if it's something pertaining specifically to your religion? We had a cacher a few years back who was leaving rosaries (Catholic prayer beads) as a trade item. I will admit, the first time I opened a cache and saw one swimming around in the muck at the bottom of the container I was a little bit offended. I traded, cleaned it up and got over it pretty quick, though.

 

I think I'd have an easier time discussing various religions with my daughter if we found a bunch of tracts in a cache over porn, although I suspect with either of them she probably wouldn't even notice what they were - paper stuff is boring in a cache!

[+.LMN.]

Some of you have found enough caches with tracts to get quite frustrated with it. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever found a religious tract in a cache. It's possible that I have and have already forgotten about it.

 

I've only found a couple. Today I found a laminated card with a bible verse on it. They don't bother me, but when I see that they have become moldy junk, I toss it. Same with the business cards.

[+qtbluemoon]

As far as I'm concerned, geocaching just isn't the place for this stuff. Why take something lighthearted and fun, and turn it into something contentious and divisive?

I don't know, this is like channel surfing. If you run across something you don't like, change the channel. If you come across a slip of paper that you don't like, just go to the next item of swag. Just ignore it, people.

[+Ethankwolfe]

I'm not going to argue in this thread anymore, there are far too many people taking this personally and getting way off-topic.

 

I'll continue to remove religious pamphlets from caches I find, though I may take up replacing them with other, non-religious pamphlets in the future. But the point remains that I don't see tracts as trade items. Prayers beads and the like were never the topic of discussion, by the way; I would never remove something like that from a cache just because it carried religious iconography. But leaflets that are specifically printed as propaganda? Yeah, I'll be throwing those out.

 

Feel free to keep putting them in, of course! We're either both right, or both wrong when it comes to this practice, and either way I feel pretty good about my position.

[+tozainamboku]

If the caches themselves are not allowed to be commercial or solicit (religious, political, charitable or social agendas), then per ("Geocaching is intended to be an enjoyable, family-friendly hobby, not a platform for an agenda." From the guidelines) I interpret that to mean that the contents should not violate the "commercial or soliciting" rules.

You're interpreting too much into the guidelines. The commericial/agenda guideline has to do with the use of the Geoaching.com website - primarily dealing with using the cache page to promote or solicit.

 

Groundspeak has little control of what people might leave in a cache. They've provide a list of items that the cache owner is asked to remove should they become aware these items are left. Presumably, cachers should know not to leave items on that list and should feel confident that they can remove these items without trading. The only item on that list that I personally will clean out of caches is food, primarily because I've seen what eventually happens when food is left in a cache. Items of a commercial or agenda relation are specifically not called out. Often these will have some intrinsic value to cachers who trade (promotional items or religious items such crucifixes, rosaries, or amulets). What value business cards, advertising flyers, or religious tracts is in what is written on them. So you could use the rule "If you take something, leave something of greater or equal value" and simply take the item and write something in the log you consider of equal or greater value.

 

As far as I'm concerned, geocaching just isn't the place for this stuff. Why take something lighthearted and fun, and turn it into something contentious and divisive?

I don't know, this is like channel surfing. If you run across something you don't like, change the channel. If you come across a slip of paper that you don't like, just go to the next item of swag. Just ignore it, people.

The very first cache I found, I took an item that I thought depicted an offensive racial stereotype. Later I relized that it was a souvenir someone bought on a trip to Mexico and was not actually intended to offend. I decided then I that I wouldn't be offended by things I found in geocaches.

[+qtbluemoon]

We're either both right, or both wrong

There is no right or wrong here, it's just differences of opinion. The fact that my opinion is the right one, well, let's just leave it at that.

[+Ethankwolfe]

We're either both right, or both wrong

There is no right or wrong here, it's just differences of opinion. The fact that my opinion is the right one, well, let's just leave it at that.

 

Congratulations on your ability to simultaneously obscure judgment by hiding behind opinion and condemn someone else's opinion.

[+thebruce0]

I'm not going to argue in this thread anymore, there are far too many people taking this personally and getting way off-topic.

The point of contention (which you ceded in an earlier comment) is really based on your stated opinion that geocaching is not the place for proselytizing, and you get offended and annoyed by finding printed paper with content on it you don't like.

Other people disagree with your opinion.

You recognize that possibility.

So, yes, people will take it personally - because it's your opinion against theirs.

Are you going to take your ball and go home now? Seems like you expected this sort of response, but you're not happy that people disagree with your opinion.

 

Take many people's adivce: Ignore the stuff you don't like - you (any of us) are the one choosing to get offended; trade for stuff you don't like and dispose of it; and generally make sure cache contents follow the guidelines for appropriate content (which does not exclude religious or commercial material).

 

As others have said, the back and forth seems to be either extreme against each other - those wanting to proselytize by placing items in a cache (religious or commercial), and those wanting to not be the target of indirect proselytizing and actively removing such content whenever they come across it.

The middle ground seems to be 1) put stuff you're passionate about in a cache if you like, or if you want to avoid potential offense then don't, but make sure you don't overstuff or degrade the rest of the contents for others, and 2) if you don't like something you find, leave it be or trade for it, or remove it if you think it's detrimental to the cache according to the guidelines.

 

Your "opinion" about whether you like contents has no bearing on whether the contents should be removed in the spirit of geocaching.

 

If you want to be more happy, less stressed, and generally less mad at all the things, learn to let things slide that aren't directed explicitly at you in offense, if they are not against any rules. Life's much better that way.

 

(and that passive approach to geocaching tends to apply to other areas of contention in this pastime as well, by the way, as demonstrated in numerous other angry-rant threads in the forums)

Edited June 4, 2014 by thebruce0

[+SwineFlew]

Its not religion things that bug me, its the attitude of some people think they got to push their belief everywhere they go.

 

What's the difference between leaving a religious tract and leaving a voucher for a Big Mac? Both are arguably assuming a future finder will be interested in what you left behind. Maybe somebody really fancies a Big Mac. Maybe somebody considers McDonalds to be the worst corporation to disgrace the face of the earth. Maybe somebody is searching for a deeper meaning in their life and appreciates the religious tract. Maybe they just got out of an abusive experience within that religion and would rather stick pins in their eyes than read the tract. What's the difference? If they like it they can take it away, if they dislike it they can ignore it. At least if you're not interested in the tract in a cache you can just ignore it, which is a whole lot less irritating than trying to tell the Mormons in the marketplace that I'm not interested in what they're offering.

 

Does freedom only apply to people who think the same as we do?

 

Apples and Oranges there.

 

Religion is like sex, it should stay in the bedrooms.

[+TriciaG]

Does freedom only apply to people who think the same as we do?

Religion is like sex, it should stay in the bedrooms.

 

To answer the question: apparently it does.

[+The Jester]

Religion is like sex, it should stay in the bedrooms.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

Some of the most interesting/fun sexual experiences I've had weren't in a bedroom - but that is a private thing between my wife and I, and details should not be shared with others.

 

My relationship with Jesus should suffuse my entire life, He is after all the center of my life. And details of that need to be shared with others, that's a primary part of that relationship.

[+The Jester]

And there are many, many verses that say the opposite to "don't judge". Context is key. If we don't judge anyone, how do we do what Matthew 7:2-6 says? If we don't judge at all, how can we determine our brother has a speck in Matthew 7:5: "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

 

Romans 14:1 is talking about disputable matters. I cannot say that Christians who are football fans are not really Christians. I CAN say that if you don't believe in Jesus, you're not a Christian.

 

Be careful how you throw verses around.

 

HOWEVER, this is getting off topic. Debate about Christianity's tenets doesn't belong here, methinks. And please, try to keep the insults down. No one in this thread has insulted the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Agnostic Jihad's beliefs; please refrain from insulting mine. Insult the tracts. Insult those who place tracts in caches. But please don't insult Christians in toto.

I remember joking with the Pastor a while back - "I don't judge others, I just guess how God is going to judge them..."

[+Ma & Pa]

My relationship with Jesus should suffuse my entire life, He is after all the center of my life. And details of that need to be shared with others, that's a primary part of that relationship.

 

Please not with me.

 

.

 

My fundamentalist neighbour knows that I am an atheist and shares his religious thoughts with me. I listen politely and dont respond. The same goes for pamphlets in caches. I smile and leave them there unless they are taking too much room or are in bad shape

Edited June 4, 2014 by Ma & Pa

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I have found few tracts in caches. However, my wife Teresa chose her geonick 'GeoRose' from a rosary she found in her first find.

 

I can't imagine being so sensitive and unsure in my belief, on any topic, that a tract proposing any other thought would upset me enough to go online and fret over it. It's a big world. We don't all think alike.

 

I think it's a hoot that the freedom we claim to believe in and enjoy must be curtailed when someone doesn't agree with us. In order to be free we must eradicate any ideas but our own.

Edited June 4, 2014 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+The_Incredibles_]

 

Religion is like sex, it should stay in the bedrooms.

 

Oh, you're no fun.

[+Ethankwolfe]

I think it's a hoot that the freedom we claim to believe in and enjoy must be curtailed when someone doesn't agree with us. In order to be free we must eradicate any ideas but our own.

 

Don't even start that nonsense. I'm not asking the rules to change. I'm not preventing you from doing anything. I'm not even asking you not to do it. I'm expressing the reason I find it inappropriate. Your freedoms are not even remotely close to being infringed upon.

 

I am so sick of people pulling the "freedom of speech" card when someone disagrees with them. Nobody's creating a law to prevent you from doing what you're doing. Your freedoms are being curtailed in no ways here.

 

It's like saying the most redeeming thing about your opinion is that it's not illegal to have it. What a terrible defense for an opinion.

[+thebruce0]

I think it's a hoot that the freedom we claim to believe in and enjoy must be curtailed when someone doesn't agree with us. In order to be free we must eradicate any ideas but our own.

 

Don't even start that nonsense. I'm not asking the rules to change. I'm not preventing you from doing anything. I'm not even asking you not to do it. I'm expressing the reason I find it inappropriate. Your freedoms are not even remotely close to being infringed upon.

 

I am so sick of people pulling the "freedom of speech" card when someone disagrees with them. Nobody's creating a law to prevent you from doing what you're doing. Your freedoms are being curtailed in no ways here.

 

It's like saying the most redeeming thing about your opinion is that it's not illegal to have it. What a terrible defense for an opinion.

 

So, what's your point for this thread?

You've expressed your opinion. Yet you're claiming everyone's "taking it personally" when they disagree.

It's fine you don't like it. Offense is being taken by your constant insistence that everyone doing what you don't like is being rude and offensive to you. Your implication is that they should not do that. So yes, it will be taken personally.

 

If you want discussion, this is what you've wrought by your response to those replying in disagreement to you.

 

If this: "I'm not going to argue in this thread anymore" is what your response is, then either you want to leave giving the impression that you are taking the high road and everyone else is the problem, or somehow you can't understand or fathom how someone might 'take it personally' that you think they are being rude and offensive by spreading what they're passionate about -- yet only in the context of religion, and none other.

 

Once again, it's fine you don't like certain cache contents that others leave. It's fine that you primarily dislike such content that's religious in nature.

It's not fine that you insult and offend people selectively for religious content and none other.

You, along with everyone else, have every right to equally treat cache contents passively (ignore it all together, especially what you don't like), or within the guidelines and 'spirit' of geocaching (trading, even if to remove, or keeping the container contents 'clean', as it were).

 

So. You don't like finding religious content in caches.

Perfectly ok.

What is it exactly you'd like to discuss respectfully, that won't get you (or anyone else) up in arms and ranting against each other? Or has that time past, and you actually don't want to argue in this thread any more?

Edited June 5, 2014 by thebruce0

[+The Leprechauns]

I'm not going to argue in this thread anymore, there are far too many people taking this personally and getting way off-topic.

 

I'll continue to remove religious pamphlets from caches I find, though I may take up replacing them with other, non-religious pamphlets in the future. But the point remains that I don't see tracts as trade items. Prayers beads and the like were never the topic of discussion, by the way; I would never remove something like that from a cache just because it carried religious iconography. But leaflets that are specifically printed as propaganda? Yeah, I'll be throwing those out.

 

Feel free to keep putting them in, of course! We're either both right, or both wrong when it comes to this practice, and either way I feel pretty good about my position.

I think what most people are upset about is your stated practice and intention of removing trade items from caches without replacing them. I know that's my beef with you. I have no problem if my friend Snoogans replaces a Christian pamphlet with an Agnostic pamphlet. His Agnostic Smashed Penny is a valued treasure in my sig item collection. I have no problem if my friend wimseyguy replaces a Christian pamphlet with a Sweet Potato tract. He gave me one, and it's a valued treasure in my sig item collection.

 

Why do I consider other non-Christian posters in this thread as my friends? Because they're respectful of differences and they tolerate diversity, whether in caching styles, trade preferences or personal beliefs.

 

I think it's a hoot that the freedom we claim to believe in and enjoy must be curtailed when someone doesn't agree with us. In order to be free we must eradicate any ideas but our own.

 

Don't even start that nonsense. I'm not asking the rules to change. I'm not preventing you from doing anything. I'm not even asking you not to do it. I'm expressing the reason I find it inappropriate. Your freedoms are not even remotely close to being infringed upon.

 

I am so sick of people pulling the "freedom of speech" card when someone disagrees with them. Nobody's creating a law to prevent you from doing what you're doing. Your freedoms are being curtailed in no ways here.

 

It's like saying the most redeeming thing about your opinion is that it's not illegal to have it. What a terrible defense for an opinion.

All that my friend TheAlabamaRambler did was to express an opinion. You, on the other hand, go beyond that by censoring others, and by imposing your own beliefs on others, through your physical action of removing materials from geocaches based on your opinions. I cannot afford you the same respect that I give to Snoogans, wimseyguy and TheAlabamaRambler.

 

Let me quote you out of context from your contribution to another thread:

Wow, a lot of elitist snobs in this topic!

 

Look guys, I've been Geocaching for three months. That's nothing, I'm definitely a noob. {SNIP}

 

Your hobby has reached a wider audience and you're upset that you're not the only ones who know about it anymore. Yes, that brings complications along with it, but you should be happy that more people are enjoying the caches now. I know I am!

 

Basically, let other people enjoy this. Get mad at vandalizers, obviously, but don't go assuming that every noob with a smartphone is just destroying caches or won't find multi's. Because you would be wrong.

It does not sound like you are "enjoying the caches." You are degrading them each time you destroy trade items left by others.

 

You should follow the same advice that you offered in the other thread. If not, then I commend Matthew 7:5 to you for reflection: "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

[+Foothills Drifter]

This topic has turned into a BIG pile of DEFECATION......

 

Vern / Foothills Drifter......

[+Ethankwolfe]

 

It's not fine that you insult and offend people selectively for religious content and none other.

 

 

I hadn't insulted or intentionally offended anyone, as far as I'm aware.

[+thebruce0]

I hadn't insulted or intentionally offended anyone, as far as I'm aware.

 

You're right, I looked back through the thread and your language and tone have been generally calm and held back. Maybe I got some other commenters' words (who shared your opinion) mixed in with yours. For that I apologize, but your language still implies an antagonistic approach to those who place pamphlets and prints about religious matters in caches, seemingly exclusively, along with a naive confusion about the fact that people take that tone personally - the religious nature of the discussion was bound to take go down this road.

 

So once again I just ask, as mentioned numerous times already, just be passive about stuff you find in caches that you may not like (as many have said they do regarding various other items), or do what you're called to do in the spirit of geocaching - trade up or clean up, according to the guidelines. That's all... you'll enjoy geocaching a lot better without choosing to get personally offended by something you may find in a cache which isn't itself against any guideline.

Edited June 5, 2014 by thebruce0

[+terrkan78]

I don't think geocaches are appropriate locations for religious tracts. If I find anything in a cache that bugs me, I trade for it and pitch it. Doesn't matter why it bugs me. Doesn't matter if I'm the only person in the universe bugged by that item.

 

I've don't think I've ever found a tract in a cache but I've found plenty of paper products, usually slimy moldy messes. Paper and geocaches are a bad mix period, at least in my neck of the woods. If I find something I consider garbage (like slimy paper), I may not bother trading for...depends on the cache (a decent container that simply hasn't been found for a long time I'm more likely to fix up and leave new swag; a crappy container that's just going to leak again right off the bat, no).

[+Snoogans]

What I'd like to know is where you people that are offended go caching that you find sooo many caches large enough to even accept trade items let alone religious tracts?

 

I have been caching over 11 years in 40+ states and 4 countries, and I can really only remember encountering tracts less than half a dozen times and prayer beads only once.

 

I fail to see the frequency in the OP's stats that would precipitate such angst other than maybe a phobia for religion.

 

Love me some angsty geocaching topics though. Thank you all for the smug superior feelings. I hadn't posted in over 6 months. This has been fun.

[team tisri]

Ironically, they are instructed not to judge anyone

Not to turn this into a religious argument, but Christianity does not believe you're not supposed to judge anyone. I can't speak of the other religions.

 

Not according to Matthew 7.1 "Judge not, lest ye be judged". As well as Romans 14:1 and many other verses.

 

That's the entire shtick. They are NOT supposed to judge anyone, however that's the first thing that offends people, that they are being judged by them. People open a cache and find a very nice generic message that says that they are going to hades. There is the irony.

 

This takes the verse totally out of context, but hard to discuss here without going way off topic.