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Discussing park regulations and safety at Stone Mountain Park


rfair404

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I really stirred the pudding regarding safety and restricted areas in Stone Mountain Park. There are several caches that I think should be archived because they violate one or more of the park regulations and policies. The CO refuses to archive the cache or move them to a more reasonable area.

 

I've contacted our local reviewer, LZ33 and am awaiting a response. The CO has emailed me that I'm harassing him - I'd like to keep all the dialogue public for the benefit of other cachers.

 

That said, here are the caches and my issues with them:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4ECD0_stone-mountain-parks-deadliest-catch

 

The problem with this cache is that it requires seekers to use a watercraft to find it. Doing so requires people seeking this cache to obey certain regulations including the swimming, and age restrictions as well as fishing regulations. It is possible that someone seen hunting this cache could appear in violation of this. It is also in violation of the water pollution regulations.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC3JHK5_find-fred-jr-before-wile-e-coyote-does-on-stn-mt?guid=622c31da-98e3-4939-a55f-979ea12a6c9a

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC254HZ_lifeline-to-t-o-m

 

The issue that I take with these caches is that they're in restricted and dangerous areas. I've spoken with the police Captain about the areas and he has stated that they are indeed restricted areas.

 

I have left several needs archive logs detailing these issues as well as emailed the CO but he refuses to correct the problems or relocate the containers to appropriate area.

 

What should I do?

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I really stirred the pudding regarding safety and restricted areas in Stone Mountain Park. There are several caches that I think should be archived because they violate one or more of the park regulations and policies. The CO refuses to archive the cache or move them to a more reasonable area.

 

I've contacted our local reviewer, LZ33 and am awaiting a response. The CO has emailed me that I'm harassing him - I'd like to keep all the dialogue public for the benefit of other cachers.

 

That said, here are the caches and my issues with them:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4ECD0_stone-mountain-parks-deadliest-catch

 

The problem with this cache is that it requires seekers to use a watercraft to find it. Doing so requires people seeking this cache to obey certain regulations including the swimming, and age restrictions as well as fishing regulations. It is possible that someone seen hunting this cache could appear in violation of this. It is also in violation of the water pollution regulations.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC3JHK5_find-fred-jr-before-wile-e-coyote-does-on-stn-mt?guid=622c31da-98e3-4939-a55f-979ea12a6c9a

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC254HZ_lifeline-to-t-o-m

 

The issue that I take with these caches is that they're in restricted and dangerous areas. I've spoken with the police Captain about the areas and he has stated that they are indeed restricted areas.

 

I have left several needs archive logs detailing these issues as well as emailed the CO but he refuses to correct the problems or relocate the containers to appropriate area.

 

What should I do?

 

"It's dangerous" is not a reason for archiving a cache.

 

There appears to be a difference of opinion as to whether the caches are in "restricted" areas--restricted in what sense? If they are so bad, why doesn't the Park prohibit them? I think this is a matter that should be left to the Park, the CO and the Reviewers.

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You're right, being dangerous is subjective and not grounds enough for archival. The issue is that hunting the caches place geocachers at risk of being fined and / or arrested as these caches don't fully comply with the ordinances of the park. Is there anything short of calling the police that can be done? I've emailed the reviewer - is that my only recourse?

 

I really stirred the pudding regarding safety and restricted areas in Stone Mountain Park. There are several caches that I think should be archived because they violate one or more of the park regulations and policies. The CO refuses to archive the cache or move them to a more reasonable area.

 

I've contacted our local reviewer, LZ33 and am awaiting a response. The CO has emailed me that I'm harassing him - I'd like to keep all the dialogue public for the benefit of other cachers.

 

That said, here are the caches and my issues with them:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4ECD0_stone-mountain-parks-deadliest-catch

 

The problem with this cache is that it requires seekers to use a watercraft to find it. Doing so requires people seeking this cache to obey certain regulations including the swimming, and age restrictions as well as fishing regulations. It is possible that someone seen hunting this cache could appear in violation of this. It is also in violation of the water pollution regulations.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC3JHK5_find-fred-jr-before-wile-e-coyote-does-on-stn-mt?guid=622c31da-98e3-4939-a55f-979ea12a6c9a

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC254HZ_lifeline-to-t-o-m

 

The issue that I take with these caches is that they're in restricted and dangerous areas. I've spoken with the police Captain about the areas and he has stated that they are indeed restricted areas.

 

I have left several needs archive logs detailing these issues as well as emailed the CO but he refuses to correct the problems or relocate the containers to appropriate area.

 

What should I do?

 

"It's dangerous" is not a reason for archiving a cache.

 

There appears to be a difference of opinion as to whether the caches are in "restricted" areas--restricted in what sense? If they are so bad, why doesn't the Park prohibit them? I think this is a matter that should be left to the Park, the CO and the Reviewers.

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It REALLY seems that you have a vendetta against this guy. If you don't want to hunt that cache, don't hunt it! You're spending an awful lot of time researching why those caches should not be there. Why?

 

This is supposed to be fun! You're taking this WAAAAY too seriously. And if your efforts make the entire Stone Mountain Park off-limits for geocaching you'll ruin the fun there for TONS and TONS of yearly geocachers. Please don't as we enjoy visiting the park and geocaching there.

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Jeff, it isn't a vendetta against "the guy" so much as "the caches". He has several great caches in the park that I have very much enjoyed hunting myself. Some of the CO's caches are inspiration for some of my own hides. Why you ask? I guess I didn't spell it out clear enough. 1 - the caches violate the park rules, which violate the geocaching.com / Groundspeak rules. The game IS supposed to be fun, which is why the rules exist. Falling off a cliff and dying because the cache page incorrectly suggests that an area is safe, when it is in fact a restricted area is my first concern. 2 - the water cache has several statements and suggestions for how to find the cache. Someone who follows the instructions could be in violation of several ordinances. Getting arrested or a $500 fine because the CO put information that is not true is also not fun.

 

I don't want to ruin anything for anyone. In fact I'm hoping to help preserve the awesome experience. If someone were to be killed or injured as a result of these caches, or if the park police were to notice that geocachers are violating the law (intentionally or otherwise) this could ultimately lead to the park taking action. I don't see how raising a stink on the cache page or this forum could do more damage than the actual hides themselves.

 

I appreciate you voicing your opinion though and will do my best not to let this impact anyones' caching experience in or around the park.

 

It REALLY seems that you have a vendetta against this guy. If you don't want to hunt that cache, don't hunt it! You're spending an awful lot of time researching why those caches should not be there. Why?

 

This is supposed to be fun! You're taking this WAAAAY too seriously. And if your efforts make the entire Stone Mountain Park off-limits for geocaching you'll ruin the fun there for TONS and TONS of yearly geocachers. Please don't as we enjoy visiting the park and geocaching there.

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What should I do?

 

Get a large glass mug, preferably with geocaching logos on it, fill it half full of ice and pour it full of Gentleman Jack. Go outside, pull up a chair in the shade and enjoy your drink while you contemplate happy thoughts. By the time you finish this will not bother you so much.

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Isn't pollution a man made/altered object that is intentionally or unintentionally dumped somewhere, whether it be water or land, and left there to be forgotten about? But it is not considered pollution if the intent is to be able to retrieve the container. So if my container at the bottom of the lake is considered pollution, then wouldn't all Geocache containers in the park be considered pollution? Many containers hidden on land would not meet EPA regulations. As where my container at the bottom of the lake and all supplies used.are of food grade, non toxic material that is also safe to be put into the average home aquarium. I have implemented multiple retrieval techniques, which will unfortunately be made public once the cache has been found the first time. I implemented those so that I am able to retrieve the cache easily should natural causes compromise the cache. The cache and materials used are all aquarium safe ,aterials and should the unlikely event the container get lost forever, it will not hurt the environment. I also implemented those techniques so that I can perform easy and fast maintenance. The log paper I used is also environmentally safe.

 

If you take a look at all the documents provided by RFAIR404, all caches inside Stone Mountain Park would be in violation of at least one of those ordinances, which means technically all caches inside the park will have to be archived!

 

Just some food for thought!

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Jeff, it isn't a vendetta against "the guy" so much as "the caches".

Sorry, it is. Once you start posting multiple NA's and multiple notes on the subject and then bring it to the forum it is a vendetta, and not so much against the caches as it is against the guy. It has been a long time since I seen someone with their knickers wound up so tight. Take a deep breath and let it go.

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You should have posted a single "Needs Archived" on each listing and then walked away; one of the volunteer reviewers will absolutely deal with the situation. However, you posted multiple "Needs Archived" to drive your point home. It makes you appear argumentative and furthers the cache owner's idea that you are taking a personal interest in either him or his caches. You have made your point so I suggest that you let it go and not continue to bring it up.

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I gotta say, the CO doesn't make much of a case for himself. Saying "I did extensive research" is about as valuable as the pixels those words take up on the screen.

 

Having hunted "Down with the slickness" (one of this COs other unfound caches on SMP), I can personally attest to the fact that he apparently prefers evil hides in crappy areas over tough hides in moderately interesting areas. To each their own...but this CO does appear to have a pretty thin skin and some anger issues whenever someone questions him.

 

That being said, I think the multiple NA logs aren't doing that much to help your case. His "Owner Maintenance" logs don't nullify them, so now the Reviewer is seeing each NA log piling up on the previous ones and wondering who wee-wee'd in your Cheerios today.

 

/devil's advocate

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If you take a look at my recent cache hides, I have placed some easier ones and I even mention in one or two of these cache pages that I have hidden enough difficult hides to last a while. My purpose of placing what are now considered my difficult hides was to try and bring something new into this game rather than placing yet another cache hide that is worn out and used many times.

Edited by talk2azs
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The big tragedy with this entire issue is that all Geocaches inside Stone Mountain Park may have already be compromised. RFAIR404 has already gone to the Stone Mountain Park Police inquiring about my caches and possibly others in the park. It's just another example of the old phrase...."All good things must come to an end!"

 

All we can hope for is that the massive attention this issue has brought to light gets put on the back burner. Knowing the chief of police and some other officers in the park, this issue will not be forgotten anytime soon and will most likely flair up again in the near future, if the burn isn't already on full throttle! Geocaching in Stone Mountain Park is definitely in danger as of today! We as Geocachers are known for taking care of the environment. That is part of what this game is all about. And unfortunately, when the boat gets rocked, consequences will ensue. This boat in SMP has definitely been rocked to the point of capsizing!

 

Attempt to hunt all caches inside SMP while you still can! I may be sounding doom and gloom like. I am a pessimist by nature and I truly hope that I am wrong in this case!!!

 

This is a sad...sad day in the Geocaching world!!!

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The big tragedy with this entire issue is that all Geocaches inside Stone Mountain Park may have already be compromised. RFAIR404 has already gone to the Stone Mountain Park Police inquiring about my caches and possibly others in the park. It's just another example of the old phrase...."All good things must come to an end!"

 

All we can hope for is that the massive attention this issue has brought to light gets put on the back burner. Knowing the chief of police and some other officers in the park, this issue will not be forgotten anytime soon and will most likely flair up again in the near future, if the burn isn't already on full throttle! Geocaching in Stone Mountain Park is definitely in danger as of today! We as Geocachers are known for taking care of the environment. That is part of what this game is all about. And unfortunately, when the boat gets rocked, consequences will ensue. This boat in SMP has definitely been rocked to the point of capsizing!

 

Attempt to hunt all caches inside SMP while you still can! I may be sounding doom and gloom like. I am a pessimist by nature and I truly hope that I am wrong in this case!!!

 

This is a sad...sad day in the Geocaching world!!!

 

To be fair...if you are concerned that the police or park might shut it down, aren't y kind of responsible? I mean, if these caches are enough to get them to act, perhaps there was not enough "extensive research" on your part as to whether this activity would be acceptable in these locations. There is no shortage of people in these forums willing to chastise cachers for neglecting to obtain permission from owners and managers...but I don't see any of them chiming in here. Where are those who always say 'if you have permission, then you have nothing to worry about'?

 

I don't defend rfair's tactics and those particular caches don't really interest me enough to even look into, but his points regarding park regulations do have merit that you never really address beyond the vague statement about 'extensive research' and the "vendetta" comeback. Fact is, you aren't really obligated to publicly explain your research...but if it ever becomes an issue with park authorities, I'm sure you'll have to do better than that.

 

Personally, I think it would be better to let cachers weigh the risk..both to their body and wallet...as long as they are properly forewarned. Truly, it's illegal caches that will ruin it for everyone, not those who call them out. Don't kid yourself that it's otherwise.

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The issue that I take with these caches is that they're in restricted and dangerous areas. I've spoken with the police Captain about the areas and he has stated that they are indeed restricted areas.

 

I have left several needs archive logs detailing these issues as well as emailed the CO but he refuses to correct the problems or relocate the containers to appropriate area.

 

What should I do?

 

There are cache reviewers who share responsibility for these things, plus the organization that publishes the cache.

 

Did you contact Groundspeak? Did you contact the reviewer who approved the cache with your concerns? How did they respond to your specific complaints regarding cache safety?

 

The owner made this for premium members only. It's a 5/5, which will immediately reduce the number of seekers. It's such a challenge that it hasn't been found - which will further discourage the pursuit. He adjusted the parking instructions and appears to have aligned the cache with park safety instructions and regulations. He appears willing to "own" responsibility for the cache in every way.

 

If he has not, report those specific violations to Groundspeak and the cache reviewers. It is then their problem, and you may rest knowing that you have done your duty.

 

The consequences of this debate spilling outside of this forum - specifically, to the Stone Mountain Park authorities - seem alarming. It is a beautiful place for caching, and I would be saddened if our hobby was restricted in that area.

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Here are some rules of thumb which my thumbs follow when it comes to the use of the "Needs Archived" log:

 

1. If there are multiple "Needs Archived" logs close in time to one another, and logged by the same account, there is likely an ulterior motive and I will steeply discount the weight given to those claims, relative to the cache history, owner history and owner response.

 

2. If a "Needs Archived" log takes more than a paragraph or two to explain why the cache needs to be archived, there is likely an ulterior motive and I will steeply discount the weight given to those lengthy paragraphs. "Cache was found 50 times in a row but now there are 6 DNF's in a row and no response to multiple NM logs and emails" is a fantastic "Needs Archived" log. "The police told me I was trespassing on private property, and the landowner called them to complain" is a compelling "Needs Archived" log.

 

Applying these tests, I would take no action. The "Needs Archived" logs on the first linked cache scream out that there is more going on. Common examples of other motives include frustration over not being able to find the cache, and personal conflicts between cache owner and cache seeker. I'm not stating that these motives are present here, just that I've seen these motives a lot over my 11 years as a reviewer.

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Thanks to everyone who's chimed in on this thread.

 

I got an official answer back from the education coordinator who oversees geocaching and other activities in the park. My initial statement that the caches in question are indeed placed inside restricted areas is correct. It is obvious that the CO does not have permission to place caches in this area.

 

For anyone thinking about putting caches on the mountain, or in the lake, please read:

 

Hi Russell,

 

I finally have some brain power to think about all of this. I would say that technically anything off of cared for and blazed trails is restricted. If someone stays on the trails, then if anything happens Public Safety has a better chance of quickly finding and getting to them.

 

If I were to walk from the cherokee trail about half way up the mountain and go southwest around (away from the walk up trail) would I be in in a restricted area? Correct – again, technically I think Chief Kelley would say that once getting off the Cherokee Trail, someone is in a restricted area on the mountain.

 

Also there is some type of pipeline that goes to the top of the mountain. Is that a restricted area or fair game for geocaching? This is the water for top of mountain building and it is not fair game for geocaching.

There is some type of water cache that has been hidden in the pond. It is some type of floating container that has been sunk into the lake. Is that considered okay? Is this container you mention in the little pond by Stonewall Jackson Drive? This would not be okay.

Is placing containers in the lake with the intention of people using a boat to go pull it up acceptable or could that potentially get someone in trouble? I think it could potentially get someone in trouble. Plus, it would be good to not encourage putting more caches in the lake anyway.

 

Thanks for thinking of this Russell.

 

Naomi Thompson

Education Supervisor

Stone Mountain Memorial Association

770.498.5619

Fax 770.498.5616

Edited by rfair404
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