PMO caches visible on map when not logged in

[+thomfre]

When I'm viewing the geocache map without being logged in, I'm able to see all PMO caches, on all zoom levels. If I log in as a basic member, the PMO caches are hidden (as expected).

 

I know this bug is being used by basic members to find PMO caches, simply by signing out.

 

We've seen a huge increase in new non-verified basic members lately, and a lot of caches have started to disappear regularly.

The map shouldn't be accessible without being logged in at all, but a good start would be to hide the PMO caches.

[+palmetto]

Interesting.

 

Logged out, I could only get to a Geocaching.com map by saving the URL, and entering it directly into my browser. A fairly sophisticated technique. I could see icons on the map then, but clicking links would not allow me to see any listings, not PMO, not Basic.

 

You realize that Basic members can get a the distance to the listing coords for PMO caches from Hide and Seek? ie, someone who is knowledgeable enough to use the map technique can easily use the Hide and Seek technique.

 

I would not expect this to change, as it's needed for Basic Members to being able to hide caches. From their own listings, if they click on the "nearby caches" link - hopefully BEFORE submitting for review - they'll see the distance to the listing coords of that PMO cache 75ft down the trail.

[Pup Patrol]

When I'm viewing the geocache map without being logged in, I'm able to see all PMO caches, on all zoom levels. If I log in as a basic member, the PMO caches are hidden (as expected).

 

I know this bug is being used by basic members to find PMO caches, simply by signing out.

We've seen a huge increase in new non-verified basic members lately, and a lot of caches have started to disappear regularly.

The map shouldn't be accessible without being logged in at all, but a good start would be to hide the PMO caches.

 

There's nothing wrong with Basic Members finding PMO caches and logging them as "found" online.

 

The loophole that allows them to log PMO caches online has been around for a long time.

 

And Groundspeak has no problem with non-verified cachers, or they would have done something about it by now.

 

 

 

B.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Pup Patrol

[+thomfre]

There's nothing wrong with Basic Members finding PMO caches and logging them as "found" online.

 

The loophole that allows them to log PMO caches online has been around for a long time.

 

And Groundspeak has no problem with non-verified cachers, or they would have done something about it by now.

 

I'm not talking about logging of PMO caches, I know about this "loophole", and actually encourage basic members to log my caches by using it.

 

This bug is about PMO caches showing on the map (http://www.geocaching.com/map) when you're not logged in.

[7rxc]

I can see that as well... but the fact is that I checked 3 of the 5 pmos that I've found around here and there is very little chance you could find it from the map... it is quite offset from the hide locations in those 3.

 

Also no chance of reading the cache pages either... so multis and mystery caches would be safe at least those requring page reading... IF you found the required locations.

 

As for Traditional PMOs those are easier to locate via several methods that don't involve the non logged in one you linked to. Basics can see PMO's again when the scale shows 3km (somewhere near z=12+/-), but still no cache pages as intended...

 

I understand they are still working on the maps functions that were messed up a while back. Anyway, skewing the locations in the unlogged state is quite adequate for most purposes. A long hike probably more so, especially for a puzzle. I go but others won't very often.

 

Doug 7rxc

[Blue Square Thing]

They used to be visible at any (I think) map scale when you were logged in as well. At some point before that they were orange and then disappeared when you zoomed quite a long way in. Both would have allowed a similar method of approximating the location.

 

Maps seem to change every now and again. I'm sure they'll change at some point - they might remove PMO caches from the unlogged in map, they might not. I suspect keeping them visible is quite a good marketing technique to be honest (and I don't mean that negatively). Afaik the key element about PM caches, under the revised system, is that the *listing* is hidden from regular members, that's all.

[+thomfre]

Is this how it's supposed to be?

 

Should it really be so simple that all you have to do to view the location of all PMO-caches is to log out?

[Moun10Bike]

No, this is a bug. It's been in our database for a while, but has not been prioritized to the point where it has been addressed as yet.

[+GadgetCats]

No, this is a bug. It's been in our database for a while, but has not been prioritized to the point where it has been addressed as yet.

 

Then you should really consider prioritizing it. Many of us own a few hundred caches, and we see the effects of this bug quite clearly. We're already using PMO on many caches to "protect" them against the intro app users who don't spend even a minute to find out what they're expected to do. This bug gives them an obvious loop hole if they bother to log in on the web.

Edited May 12, 2014 by GadgetCats

[Blue Square Thing]

Then you should really consider prioritizing it. Many of us own a few hundred caches, and we see the effects of this bug quite clearly. We're already using PMO on many caches to "protect" them against the intro app users who don't spend even a minute to find out what they're expected to do. This bug gives them an obvious loop hole if they bother to log in on the web.

To be honest, if an intro app user who doesn't have the wherewithall to find out what they're "expected" to do is able to get to the website, log in, realise there is a loophole and log back out again and then zoom to the required level, utilise more advanced mapping and pin down the location of the cache and then enter it into a GPS device of some kind - well, I'm impressed by that! Somehow I think by connecting the two issues you're overplaying the hand you have here. I don't even imagine that less experienced basic members are likely to be doing this, let alone intro app users.

 

Seriously, is there any substantial evidence that there are lots of basic members who are doing this? To be honest, around here if I were desperate to find the location of a PMO cache I'd sign up to munzee and find some locations from the bunch of premium members who consistently stick qr codes next to other people's caches.

 

Fwiw I've been consistent in my desire to not see PM caches on my maps at all - at any zoom level. So I'm happy that they will be removed - but I think there are rightfully other priorities - and, you know, unlogged in maps are a marketing tool. If I see lots of caches near me I might be more likely to sign up. If lots of cache owners have made them PMO and I only see a handful I might not bother...

Edited May 12, 2014 by Blue Square Thing

[+Pontiac_CZ]

Oh dear. I logged off and checked the cache map to see where my PMO traditional cache is located. Well - it is displayed on its real place, doesn't even seem to be offset at all and available in all zoom levels. It IS sufficient for an anonymous user to find it...

This is a hot issue and should be resolved as fast as possible.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Pontiac_CZ

[+thomfre]

Seriously, is there any substantial evidence that there are lots of basic members who are doing this? To be honest, around here if I were desperate to find the location of a PMO cache I'd sign up to munzee and find some locations from the bunch of premium members who consistently stick qr codes next to other people's caches.

Some Norwegian basic members have confirmed that they use this method to find PMO caches. The same bug also makes all caches visible in the app c:geo.

 

Fwiw I've been consistent in my desire to not see PM caches on my maps at all - at any zoom level. So I'm happy that they will be removed - but I think there are rightfully other priorities - and, you know, unlogged in maps are a marketing tool. If I see lots of caches near me I might be more likely to sign up. If lots of cache owners have made them PMO and I only see a handful I might not bother...

This might be a marketing tool, but this also opens up for anyone to view the location of all caches. What's the point of protecting the location by setting the cache to PMO if the location is visible to anyone anyway?

[Blue Square Thing]

Some Norwegian basic members have confirmed that they use this method to find PMO caches. The same bug also makes all caches visible in the app c:geo.

 

Interesting. I don't read Norwegian and cant see premium caches there. Is this causing a significant problem in Norway then?

 

I can understand the issue with c:geo - presumably this allows users of that app to find anything in the normal way? (sorry, I don't use that either...) As I understand it there are a range of issues with c:geo anyway I suppose. Rather different from them being visible to unlogged in users though.

 

This might be a marketing tool, but this also opens up for anyone to view the location of all caches. What's the point of protecting the location by setting the cache to PMO if the location is visible to anyone anyway?

 

Well, the location is visible anyway via searches of course - it has to be. To be honest I doubt that many inexperienced cachers are going to be able to find boxes based on pretty poor quality map views when they aren't logged in. Once you get some experience then, yes, it probably would be possible to do so. - but, to be honest with you, most people seem to rely on gps coordinates anyway don't they? Certainly I've had comments as a result of my logs which say cache owners are surprised I was able to find their caches without a GPS device (which I don't tend to use at all); my gut feeling is that far too many people rely on the GPS and don't appreciate the potential to simply use maps and satellite imagery. And, to be honest, those who don't use GPS are likely to be able to narrow down the location of PMO caches anyway.

 

As I say, I'm all for removing PMO caches from my maps and I can understand why they need dealing with on c:geo. When they appeared at all scales for me for a while they were a pain in the backside. At least now you have to zoom really far out to see them.

 

But I can also understand why this isn't, right now, the biggest problem for GS to deal with - unless of course anyone can point to significant damage being done as a result of this bug.

[+thomfre]

As I say, I'm all for removing PMO caches from my maps and I can understand why they need dealing with on c:geo. When they appeared at all scales for me for a while they were a pain in the backside. At least now you have to zoom really far out to see them.

This is where you're wrong. The PMO caches are visible to any user at all zoom levels, as long as he/she is not logged in. The maps in Norway are more than good enough to find the caches based on this. c:geo simply uses what it gets from the map, if I understand it correctly. I don't use the app myself, but I believe it is scraping the site to get data (perhaps someone should look into that, sounds like a breach of ToU).

 

Since geocaching.com uses Leaflet, getting the coordinates from the map icons should also be really easy, I think it's enough to run the GreaseMonkey script GME.

[Blue Square Thing]

As I say, I'm all for removing PMO caches from my maps and I can understand why they need dealing with on c:geo. When they appeared at all scales for me for a while they were a pain in the backside. At least now you have to zoom really far out to see them.

This is where you're wrong. The PMO caches are visible to any user at all zoom levels, as long as he/she is not logged in. The maps in Norway are more than good enough to find the caches based on this. c:geo simply uses what it gets from the map, if I understand it correctly. I don't use the app myself, but I believe it is scraping the site to get data (perhaps someone should look into that, sounds like a breach of ToU).

 

Since geocaching.com uses Leaflet, getting the coordinates from the map icons should also be really easy, I think it's enough to run the GreaseMonkey script GME.

To be honest my point is that to do that sort of thing you have to be determined, yes? You have to be technically competent and be willing to spend a little time and effort to get the cache location, yeah? You have to be bothered to go to those lengths.

 

Sure, it's probably a bit easier just now than it was in the past at times - but is it a problem that's massively out of control or causing major problems for caches?

[+Pontiac_CZ]

Well, "massively", "major problems"... that is subjective. In my case and my one and only one PMO cache there is no problem so far. But there might be owners or locations which do have problems with this.

Anyway, this flaw should get fixed as soon as possible but I'm not in high hopes as GS developer team is understaffed (I read that in someone's post and it is apparently true)

[Blue Square Thing]

Well, "massively", "major problems"... that is subjective. In my case and my one and only one PMO cache there is no problem so far. But there might be owners or locations which do have problems with this.

Anyway, this flaw should get fixed as soon as possible but I'm not in high hopes as GS developer team is understaffed (I read that in someone's post and it is apparently true)

 

I wonder if the move to using the https protocol for maps is associated with this - seems to be causing a range of problems with plugins and may also be behind the "caches not showing on maps" issue - although that might be specific to certain browsers.

[cezanne]

Some Norwegian basic members have confirmed that they use this method to find PMO caches.

 

That can well be, but I doubt that the majority among them are inexperienced newcomers that are not familiar with the rules of geocaching.

 

There are many ways to find PMO caches for basic members and it is simply not true that the PM-only status can be used to protect caches effectively.

If someones wants to destroy caches, he/she can do that in many ways.

 

The audit file is not reliable at all as there are many ways to obtain the cache coordinates that are not recorded in the audit file.

Anonymity is a part of geocaching that cannot be changed by PM-only caches.

 

A difficult puzzle or even better a longer hike will protect a cache much more effectively than the PM-only status ever can.

 

In a very cache dense area, almost any cache is findable without knowing its coordinates anyway. There neither difficult puzzles, nor PM-only

caches nor longer hikes will help. There is a series of PM-only caches with difficult puzzles in my area and I'm sure I could find (if I wanted which is not the

case) at least half of them without obtaining coordinates just by looking around.

 

I'm caching since 2002 and a number of my caches are more than 10 years old. I've not experienced a difference between PMs and basic members - just a

difference between cachers that care about the work of others and those that don't.

 

I have protected some of my more sensible caches by making them difficult and this indeed keeps the number of visitors reasonably low. PM-status would not achieve this.

 

Cezanne

Edited May 17, 2014 by cezanne