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Should challange caches that are currently impossible be allowed?


TheGrey

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There is a challange cache in my area that requires finders to first find 32 other caches. Each of those cache names must start with a unique letter of the alphabet and be hidden by a specific cache owner.

 

That specific cacher hasn't been active in over a year, and there is no longer a cache available by him that starts with a "Q". So... unless you happened to find a cache of his in the past that no longer exists, it's impossible to meet the challange the requirement.

 

Should that type of challange still be active? I'm thinking it should be archived so the space is available for a cache that is actually atainable.

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I assume you're talking about Minnesota and that the challenge only requires finding 26 other caches. In that case, I know of only three alphabetic challenges that are cache-owner specific. But each of those three cache owners (Bobcam, TopGear, and Boreal Walker) have visited the site during the past week, and all of them have active caches that begin with "Q." Am I overlooking a challenge?

 

In any case, if I was the cache owner and encountered this problem, then I'd probably amend the requirements to not include the "Q" cache. Of course, that might not be possible if the challenge was for my own A-Z caches and I'm no longer active.

 

If I didn't alter the requirements, then I'd probably be hesitant to archive it. Challenging challenges like this one sometimes require months (or even years) to complete. Someone might have already found the necessary "Q" cache but is still missing several other letters. They might be very frustrated if I archived the cache.

 

Is the cache located in a particularly scenic or historical location? Freeing up space simply so a more easily attained cache can replace it isn't a very important reason in my book.

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Assuming that there are people who (1) are still working on the challenge, and (2) have already found one of his "Q" caches, I don't see any reason to archive the cache immediately. Give those people who are still working on the challenge time to complete it. Disable it if you must, with a notice that it will be archived after n months. But there's no reason to archive it immediately.

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There is a challange cache in my area that requires finders to first find 32 other caches. Each of those cache names must start with a unique letter of the alphabet and be hidden by a specific cache owner.

 

That specific cacher hasn't been active in over a year, and there is no longer a cache available by him that starts with a "Q". So... unless you happened to find a cache of his in the past that no longer exists, it's impossible to meet the challange the requirement.

 

Should that type of challange still be active? I'm thinking it should be archived so the space is available for a cache that is actually atainable.

 

Wow! There are a lot of strange challenge caches in your area! (A few of which might not meet modern requirements...)

I do see an Alphanumeric Challenge: Find 36 cache hidden by geocachers whose handle start with each of the twenty-six letters and ten numbers. But that does not specify a specific cache owner. Only that the CO's official handle must start wit 'q'. If the 'q' hider that most people have found no longer has any caches hidden, search wider for another CO whose name starts with 'q'. (Personally, I need caches hidden by cachers whose names start with '1' & '5'. I have five by cachers whose names start with "Q".)

If there is a challenge cache that requires specific CO's name, then there would be a problem. But I did not see that one on a cursory search of your area.

I do find complaints 'so the space is available' to be self-serving, and not a valid argument.

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If there is a challenge cache that requires specific CO's name, then there would be a problem. But I did not see that one on a cursory search of your area.

A Bobcam Challenge: A thru Z

Alphabet Challenge: "TopGear Style"

 

Both of these are old enough to be grandfathered regarding the newer challenge cache guidelines.

 

Note: The Boreal Walker cache I was thinking about earlier turned out to be a traditional cache rather than a challenge.

Edited by CanadianRockies
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If there is a challenge cache that requires specific CO's name, then there would be a problem. But I did not see that one on a cursory search of your area.

A Bobcam Challenge: A thru Z

Alphabet Challenge: "TopGear Style"

 

Both of these are old enough to be grandfathered regarding the newer challenge cache guidelines.

 

Note: The Boreal Walker cache I was thinking about earlier turned out to be a traditional cache rather than a challenge.

 

Interesting. But neither is the one the OP is referring to. Both active cachers. Both have active caches starting with 'Q'. But, if they did not, then I would suggest a 'NM' to rectify the problem. Of course, OP's alphabet has 32 letters, which is why I was thinking alphanumeric. So, I am not sure what he is talking about. Inconsistent description makes an answer difficult.

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We also have a challenge in the state of Washington that is effectively only done if you do her caches to qualify as they are weird titles and can only be in Washington State. However, that challenge does not say you have to find those exact caches so in theory someone else could list them.

 

If a challenge is not possible, and has been for a while, it should be disabled IMHO.

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I realize the OP has a specific example mind, and that specific example might be interesting, but I would generalize. There are other types of "Unknown" caches that require finding a specific set of other geocaches first. The one that's common around here is a series of traditional caches, each with a clues that when put together, forms coordinates for some final or bonus cache. In these instances, when one of the prerequisite caches is archived, locating the final becomes tougher if not impossible. A challenge cache requiring a certain subset is kind of the same thing. In both case, I feel that it is best to simply post a NM log on any missing prerequisites, and the final/challenge. If the owner is around, they can change the challenge/final, or replace missing caches, etc... If the owners are not around, a Needs Archive can follow and if the CO does not respond because they are no longer active, the caches will be archived by the reviewer. You could generalize even further, treating this scenario no different than you would a multi with missing stages, a virtual where waypoints requiring certain information have changed etc... In my mind, they are all the same sort of issue.

 

An aside, I am kind of looking forward to the day when the famous Jasmer Challenge is no longer attainable, and all those Jasmer Challenge caches placed throughout the world can get archived. I get the feeling that many regard the Jasmer as a really awesome challenge and worth pursuing, but I've always thought it was pretty ridiculous, requiring ungodly amounts of travel, or living close to those rare few that fill certain months. Placing a Jasmer Challenge in an area far away from those rare required caches is kind of like bragging that you've traveled really far to meet the challenge, or maybe thumbing your nose at the locals who will rarely have a chance to attempt the challenge. But will the Jasmer ever become unobtainable? As others have pointed out in other threads, those rare-month caches are guarded by their local communities as being something special (since they attract the Jasmer seekers?) and are kept alive despite owners not being present, throw-downs occurring etc... Of course, if a particular Month becomes unobtainable, all those owners of Jasmer challenges would simply have to change their Challenge Listings to make that month a freebie....

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An aside, I am kind of looking forward to the day when the famous Jasmer Challenge is no longer attainable, and all those Jasmer Challenge caches placed throughout the world can get archived. I get the feeling that many regard the Jasmer as a really awesome challenge and worth pursuing, but I've always thought it was pretty ridiculous, requiring ungodly amounts of travel, or living close to those rare few that fill certain months. Placing a Jasmer Challenge in an area far away from those rare required caches is kind of like bragging that you've traveled really far to meet the challenge, or maybe thumbing your nose at the locals who will rarely have a chance to attempt the challenge. But will the Jasmer ever become unobtainable? As others have pointed out in other threads, those rare-month caches are guarded by their local communities as being something special (since they attract the Jasmer seekers?) and are kept alive despite owners not being present, throw-downs occurring etc... Of course, if a particular Month becomes unobtainable, all those owners of Jasmer challenges would simply have to change their Challenge Listings to make that month a freebie....

 

Yes, the Jasmer challenge could become unobtainable, certainly. However, I think its a little ridiculous that you are insinuating one reason to do it is to thumb one's nose at the locals who have not finished it. You could thumb your nose over any cache, maybe all those people who went to Brazil to get the Ape cacheare thumbing their nose at the entire world for doing it. No, they are doing it for their own enjoyment.

 

(removed saying Brazil twice)

Edited by lamoracke
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[Yes, the Jasmer challenge could become unobtainable, certainly. However, I think its a little ridiculous that you are insinuating one reason to do it is to thumb one's nose at the locals who have not finished it. You could thumb your nose over any cache, maybe all those people who went to Brazil to get the Ape cache are thumbing their nose at the entire world for doing it. No, they are doing it for their own enjoyment.

 

(removed saying Brazil twice)

 

cute_animated.gif You make good points lamoracke, I overstepped by insinuating that caches are placed in order to taunt locals. And I'll probably only put my foot in my mouth further by elaborating, but read on if you will.

 

I could place a challenge cache that challenges one to find an APE cache. I do not live anywhere close to the APE cache. I could legitimately be challenging those in my area to travel to the last remaining APE cache to complete this challenge, but what does that have to do with my area? Why place a challenge cache here that people who most likely know about the challenge are unlikely to do (fair assumption considering that only people within a certain distance will be notified or notice the cache being placed)? Or am I trying to get geocachers from other areas to come to my little corner of the world so they can log my challenge cache? To me that seems a little like "thumbing one's nose" at the locals; creating something that mostly will be found by people traveling through or visiting from afar. We have a local Jasmer challenge and it is found regularly by out-of-staters, but so far only 3 locals including the parents of the CO have logged it. Some other locals may be marginally trying as a long-term thing perhaps. I guess it's cool and all for all those Jasmer finishers to visit our little town to come log this challenge cache huh.gif.

 

One counter argument to the above would be about placing high terrain caches, SCUBA or mountain climbing caches that also cannot be found by many locals and may also be found only by people visiting from afar. I see these in a different light though because whereas the APE challenge cache example has nothing to do with the local geography, these high terrain caches have everything to do with the local geography. If my high terrain traditional is challenging folks to climb a particular mountain, it's because that mountain is worth climbing and is it's own unique experience. Not so with the challenge cache where the challenge bears no relevance to the location, it is merely placed there because it is close to the CO.

 

Better cut this off before my I choke on my foot any further. Consider the above discussion food for thought.

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Re the original post, some of the older challenges, now grandfathered, will become or have already become unobtainable for new cachers.

I'm not seeing an easy solution.

 

In this thread, the Jasmer has been referenced as "someday" not doable, but I suspect it will last longer than some of the original Fizzy/Well-rounded, that have a date of publication restriction.

In any case, it's a tough one to deal with. I'd tend to ignore any such challenge for a couple of years, then ask the cache owner to think about what do do, and possibly ask a reviewer to eyeball it.

The question of whether it's better to edit or to archive and start over is a whole 'nuther issue.

 

I could place a challenge cache that challenges one to find an APE cache.

 

Well, no, you couldn't. Back when there were 3 in the US and one in Brazil, in the ALR days, there were some ALR caches built on A.P.E. finds, and those may still be out there. But with only 1 in world, it's not challenge fodder.

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You could argue either side regarding the attainability of one Challenge vs. another, but I suspect that many will linger on like zombies, long after the cache owner has left the game and the original Challenge is no longer relevant.

 

It's probably easier to just wait until the container falls into disrepair and the cache owner disappears. Let nature take its course ;)

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It's probably easier to just wait until the container falls into disrepair and the cache owner disappears. Let nature take its course ;)

 

From what I understand, you do not even need to wait until the container falls into disrepair. If a Needs Archive is posted to a cache (because someone perceives it to be gone/impossible) and the owner does not respond, it can/will be archived unless there are special circumstances. I learned about this when someone posted a NA on the final for a local series. The final was becoming harder to find since the prerequisite caches were disappearing and the CO was no longer active. Someone posted a NA on it assuming it was gone as well, but I checked on it and it was in fine shape, and it was even reasonably possible to determine its coordinates. I pointed this out to the reviewer and they explained to me that once a NA is posted, if the owner doesn't speak up the cache will be archived, regardless of actual cache condition. This applies to any cache, challenges included.. It struck me as odd, since one could get caches archived even if they are in good shape and being found.

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If there is a challenge cache that requires specific CO's name, then there would be a problem. But I did not see that one on a cursory search of your area.

A Bobcam Challenge: A thru Z

Alphabet Challenge: "TopGear Style"

 

Both of these are old enough to be grandfathered regarding the newer challenge cache guidelines.

 

Note: The Boreal Walker cache I was thinking about earlier turned out to be a traditional cache rather than a challenge.

 

Yeah... It was the TopGear Style challange that brought this to my mind. I was mistaken, it's actually a "U" cache that's not available. (Not a "Q" cache.)

 

I wasn't really intending on pointing out a specfic cache or hider. I was more curious what others thought should happen from a theoretical perspective on challange caches that are no longer possible for a new person to complete.

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It's probably easier to just wait until the container falls into disrepair and the cache owner disappears. Let nature take its course ;)

 

From what I understand, you do not even need to wait until the container falls into disrepair. If a Needs Archive is posted to a cache (because someone perceives it to be gone/impossible) and the owner does not respond, it can/will be archived unless there are special circumstances. I learned about this when someone posted a NA on the final for a local series. The final was becoming harder to find since the prerequisite caches were disappearing and the CO was no longer active. Someone posted a NA on it assuming it was gone as well, but I checked on it and it was in fine shape, and it was even reasonably possible to determine its coordinates. I pointed this out to the reviewer and they explained to me that once a NA is posted, if the owner doesn't speak up the cache will be archived, regardless of actual cache condition. This applies to any cache, challenges included.. It struck me as odd, since one could get caches archived even if they are in good shape and being found.

 

If the owner is inactive the caches might as well be archived rather than waiting until they have almost certainly gone and then being archived.

 

If the cache is still there and the owner is inactive any moderately enterprising person could log NA on all of them, then relist the caches under another name to keep them going. You could even contact the original owner to see if they wanted their containers back and, assuming that also drew no response, just leave them in place.

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Should that type of challange still be active? I'm thinking it should be archived so the space is available for a cache that is actually atainable.

If your asking whether a CO should continue maintaining an impossible cache, I'd say that they shouldn't. But it's up to them. Reviewers should not archive such caches just because they have become impossible. Wanting to make space available for some other cache is never a viable justification for overriding the owner's decision.

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It's probably easier to just wait until the container falls into disrepair and the cache owner disappears. Let nature take its course ;)

 

From what I understand, you do not even need to wait until the container falls into disrepair. If a Needs Archive is posted to a cache (because someone perceives it to be gone/impossible) and the owner does not respond, it can/will be archived unless there are special circumstances. I learned about this when someone posted a NA on the final for a local series. The final was becoming harder to find since the prerequisite caches were disappearing and the CO was no longer active. Someone posted a NA on it assuming it was gone as well, but I checked on it and it was in fine shape, and it was even reasonably possible to determine its coordinates. I pointed this out to the reviewer and they explained to me that once a NA is posted, if the owner doesn't speak up the cache will be archived, regardless of actual cache condition. This applies to any cache, challenges included.. It struck me as odd, since one could get caches archived even if they are in good shape and being found.

Slight correction: Once a NA is posted and a reviewer acts on it, and if the owner doesn't respond to it the cache will be archived. The reviewer looking over the NA may choose not to act on the NA note if it doesn't seem that it is warranted.

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If there is a challenge cache that requires specific CO's name, then there would be a problem. But I did not see that one on a cursory search of your area.

A Bobcam Challenge: A thru Z

Alphabet Challenge: "TopGear Style"

 

Both of these are old enough to be grandfathered regarding the newer challenge cache guidelines.

 

Note: The Boreal Walker cache I was thinking about earlier turned out to be a traditional cache rather than a challenge.

Yeah... It was the TopGear Style challange that brought this to my mind. I was mistaken, it's actually a "U" cache that's not available. (Not a "Q" cache.)

While TopGear hasn't found a cache in the past year, that doesn't necessarily mean they're inactive. They do visit the website (most recently, yesterday). And they archived a cache several months ago. You might want to send them an email regarding the challenge that new cachers can no longer complete. They might add a "U" cache, modify their challenge cache, or archive their challenge cache (hopefully after giving fair notice).

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If the cache is still there and the owner is inactive any moderately enterprising person could log NA on all of them, then relist the caches under another name to keep them going. You could even contact the original owner to see if they wanted their containers back and, assuming that also drew no response, just leave them in place.

In this case, archiving the cache likely would prevent this particular challenge cache from continuing (even if the "U" requirement was eliminated). The current challenge cache guidelines state:

 

Challenge geocaches based on a specific list of geocaches, such as those placed by a specific person or group, will generally not be published.
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Re the original post, some of the older challenges, now grandfathered, will become or have already become unobtainable for new cachers.

I'm not seeing an easy solution.

 

In this thread, the Jasmer has been referenced as "someday" not doable, but I suspect it will last longer than some of the original Fizzy/Well-rounded, that have a date of publication restriction.

In any case, it's a tough one to deal with. I'd tend to ignore any such challenge for a couple of years, then ask the cache owner to think about what do do, and possibly ask a reviewer to eyeball it.

The question of whether it's better to edit or to archive and start over is a whole 'nuther issue.

 

I could place a challenge cache that challenges one to find an APE cache.

 

Well, no, you couldn't. Back when there were 3 in the US and one in Brazil, in the ALR days, there were some ALR caches built on A.P.E. finds, and those may still be out there. But with only 1 in world, it's not challenge fodder.

 

Is that because there is only 1 in the world, or because the only 1 in the world is a long way from the U.S? If someone lived in Sao Paulo, Brazil, finding an APE cache to meet the challenge wouldn't be that difficult. However, finding 100 caches a day or a cache a year might be just as unachievable as someone from the U.S. finding an APE cache.

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Yeah, we have a challenge cache, probably many of them, in the United States for finding one cache in all 50 states. We have another for finding 60 states or provinces. Obviously these are challenges are very much possible to do. If they were closer to my house, I'd temporarily put them in my ignore list until I potentially qualify some day.

 

However, I think its a fine challenge and many people would love a reward for finding a cache in all 50 US States.

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Not every geocache is possible. Just accept that. Should the geocache in space also be archived?

 

Finding the geocache in space is certainly much easier than qualifying for this challenge which is currently impossible. The CO needs to get his a** in gear and hide a new one or archive the challenge. :)

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Not every geocache is possible. Just accept that.

Should the geocache in space also be archived?

I don't think one has much to do with the other. For instance, the cache on the International Space Station is most certainly obtainable, though, rather challenging. All one needs to log it is a ride up there, and, perhaps, a writing implement capable of operating in a zero gravity environment. Fisher makes a pen which will do the deed, or, you could just bring a pencil. I understand you can get a ride for the low, low price of 20 million dollars. I don't know if they'll throw in a set of Ginsu knives...

 

If a cache is truly unobtainable, I think it should be archived.

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Not every geocache is possible. Just accept that. Should the geocache in space also be archived?

 

The ISS cache is one cache. It's more of a marketing tool than it is a geocache. It's existence literally does not impact anyone (except for that silly geocaching is space promotion)

 

Challenge caches have become pervasive enough in some areas that they're having an impact on the game as a whole. Before there were Challenge caches, people didn't create a cache with specific attributes or a specific name basically just so that it could be used to complete a challenge. Ignoring challenge caches that you can't complete doesn't address the impact that challenge caches are having on the game as a whole.

Edited by NYPaddleCacher
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Challenge caches have become pervasive enough in some areas that they're having an impact on the game as a whole. Before there were Challenge caches, people didn't create a cache with specific attributes or a specific name basically just so that it could be used to complete a challenge. Ignoring challenge caches that you can't complete doesn't address the impact that challenge caches are having on the game as a whole.

I'm not sure that having more caches with periodic table element names in their titles is significantly impacting geocaching.

Edited by CanadianRockies
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Challenge caches have become pervasive enough in some areas that they're having an impact on the game as a whole. Before there were Challenge caches, people didn't create a cache with specific attributes or a specific name basically just so that it could be used to complete a challenge. Ignoring challenge caches that you can't complete doesn't address the impact that challenge caches are having on the game as a whole.

I'm not sure that having more caches with periodic table element names in their titles is significantly impacting geocaching.

 

If that were the only challenge cache type then I'd agree, however, when a significant number of people create geocaches that have no other redeeming qualities other than it can be used to help complete a challenge, that does have an impact. In some areas Challenges caches seem to be more about who can come up with the most obscure, and nearly impossible idea for a challenge than creating a cache that many people are going to enjoy finding.

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In some areas Challenges caches seem to be more about who can come up with the most obscure, and nearly impossible idea for a challenge than creating a cache that many people are going to enjoy finding.

Once again, from the current Groundspeak guidelines:

 

A challenge geocache needs to appeal to, and be attainable by, a reasonable number of geocachers.

That's a requirement that I believe applies only to challenge caches. Fortunately, not many people complain about how few people are likely to enjoy finding a SCUBA cache, boat cache, or D5 puzzle cache. Not every geocache should have to appeal to lots of people. Diversity can be interesting.

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Challenge caches have become pervasive enough in some areas that they're having an impact on the game as a whole. Before there were Challenge caches, people didn't create a cache with specific attributes or a specific name basically just so that it could be used to complete a challenge. Ignoring challenge caches that you can't complete doesn't address the impact that challenge caches are having on the game as a whole.

I'm not sure that having more caches with periodic table element names in their titles is significantly impacting geocaching.

If that were the only challenge cache type then I'd agree, however, when a significant number of people create geocaches that have no other redeeming qualities other than it can be used to help complete a challenge, that does have an impact.

A significant number of people create geocaches that you probably feel have no redeeming qualities and have nothing to do with challenge caches. That's a problem with cache hiders, not with challenge caches.

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Challenge caches have become pervasive enough in some areas that they're having an impact on the game as a whole. Before there were Challenge caches, people didn't create a cache with specific attributes or a specific name basically just so that it could be used to complete a challenge. Ignoring challenge caches that you can't complete doesn't address the impact that challenge caches are having on the game as a whole.

I'm not sure that having more caches with periodic table element names in their titles is significantly impacting geocaching.

If that were the only challenge cache type then I'd agree, however, when a significant number of people create geocaches that have no other redeeming qualities other than it can be used to help complete a challenge, that does have an impact.

A significant number of people create geocaches that you probably feel have no redeeming qualities and have nothing to do with challenge caches. That's a problem with cache hiders, not with challenge caches.

I'd offer a lesson in cause & effect, but I suspect you wouldn't get it.

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A significant number of people create geocaches that you probably feel have no redeeming qualities and have nothing to do with challenge caches. That's a problem with cache hiders, not with challenge caches.

I'd offer a lesson in cause & effect, but I suspect you wouldn't get it.

You're probably right. Especially since poor quality caches predate challenge caches.

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Re the original post, some of the older challenges, now grandfathered, will become or have already become unobtainable for new cachers.

I'm not seeing an easy solution.

 

In this thread, the Jasmer has been referenced as "someday" not doable, but I suspect it will last longer than some of the original Fizzy/Well-rounded, that have a date of publication restriction.

In any case, it's a tough one to deal with. I'd tend to ignore any such challenge for a couple of years, then ask the cache owner to think about what do do, and possibly ask a reviewer to eyeball it.

The question of whether it's better to edit or to archive and start over is a whole 'nuther issue.

 

I could place a challenge cache that challenges one to find an APE cache.

 

Well, no, you couldn't. Back when there were 3 in the US and one in Brazil, in the ALR days, there were some ALR caches built on A.P.E. finds, and those may still be out there. But with only 1 in world, it's not challenge fodder.

 

Is that because there is only 1 in the world, or because the only 1 in the world is a long way from the U.S? If someone lived in Sao Paulo, Brazil, finding an APE cache to meet the challenge wouldn't be that difficult. However, finding 100 caches a day or a cache a year might be just as unachievable as someone from the U.S. finding an APE cache.

 

If there is only one remaining APE it cannot be used for a challenge as it would fail the no set lists criteria. See item 3.1

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If there is only one remaining APE it cannot be used for a challenge as it would fail the no set lists criteria. See item 3.1

The Challenge Geocache Guidelines are so full of wiggle room that they are more like guidelines than rules :ph34r:

 

3.1.1 Challenge geocaches based on a specific list of geocaches, such as those placed by a specific person or group, will generally not be published.

 

My guess it that while there is a good rationale to restrict challenges to ones that give the finders a number options (one of which is to prevent a challenge from becoming impossible), the reviewers are given a bit of discretion. No doubt that many reviewers would not publish a challenge that required finding an APE cache today. But there may be some who feel that traveling to Brazil to find the last of these caches is something that appeals to a significant number of geocachers.

 

I personally would like the guidelines to be enforced in this case. But I understand why the guidelines are often written to allow discretion, and in the general case I prefer it this way. So even though I don't like nearly impossible challenges that require expensive travel, I'm inclined to give discretion to the reviewers.

Edited by tozainamboku
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If there is only one remaining APE it cannot be used for a challenge as it would fail the no set lists criteria. See item 3.1

The Challenge Geocache Guidelines are so full of wiggle room that they are more like guidelines than rules :ph34r:

 

3.1.1 Challenge geocaches based on a specific list of geocaches, such as those placed by a specific person or group, will generally not be published.

 

My guess it that while there is a good rationale to restrict challenges to ones that give the finders a number options (one of which is to prevent a challenge from becoming impossible), the reviewers are given a bit of discretion. No doubt that many reviewers would not publish a challenge that required finding an APE cache today. But there may be some who feel that traveling to Brazil to find the last of these caches is something that appeals to a significant number of geocachers.

 

I personally would like the guidelines to be enforced in this case. But I understand why the guidelines are often written to allow discretion, and in the general case I prefer it this way. So even though I don't like nearly impossible challenges that require expensive travel, I'm inclined to give discretion to the reviewers.

 

Given discretion to the reviewers is pretty much a necessity. A challenge cache placed in Nevada which requires one to find 300 caches in a day could easily be completed. A challenge cache placed in Peru which requires one to find 300 caches in a day would be pretty difficulty with traveling to the U.S.

 

The relatively possibility of completing any challenge cache depends on the location of the challenge cache and the available caches within a reasonable travel distance. Someone that lives in the U.S. and rarely travels would find a challenge which requires someone to find caches in 10 different countries nearly impossible, but someone living in Europe could meet the criteria in a week. Placing a challenge cache with that criteria in many areas in Europe would be quite reasonable.

 

 

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The relatively possibility of completing any challenge cache depends on the location of the challenge cache and the available caches within a reasonable travel distance. Someone that lives in the U.S. and rarely travels would find a challenge which requires someone to find caches in 10 different countries nearly impossible, but someone living in Europe could meet the criteria in a week. Placing a challenge cache with that criteria in many areas in Europe would be quite reasonable.

I agree with your main point that the reasonableness of challenge caches depends on their location. But it's also important to note that challenge caches don't have to be attainable by all geocachers in an area or even by most of those geocachers. They only have to be attainable by a reasonable number of geocachers.

 

While many North American geocachers might find it difficult to find caches in 10 countries, I think many areas in North America have a reasonable number of geocachers who could accomplish that challenge. I took a quick look at the 20 Alberta geocachers with the most finds. Three of them had found caches in at least 10 countries. Another had found caches in 9 countries. It's really not that hard, even from North America.

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The relatively possibility of completing any challenge cache depends on the location of the challenge cache and the available caches within a reasonable travel distance. Someone that lives in the U.S. and rarely travels would find a challenge which requires someone to find caches in 10 different countries nearly impossible, but someone living in Europe could meet the criteria in a week. Placing a challenge cache with that criteria in many areas in Europe would be quite reasonable.

I agree with your main point that the reasonableness of challenge caches depends on their location. But it's also important to note that challenge caches don't have to be attainable by all geocachers in an area or even by most of those geocachers. They only have to be attainable by a reasonable number of geocachers.

 

While many North American geocachers might find it difficult to find caches in 10 countries, I think many areas in North America have a reasonable number of geocachers who could accomplish that challenge. I took a quick look at the 20 Alberta geocachers with the most finds. Three of them had found caches in at least 10 countries. Another had found caches in 9 countries. It's really not that hard, even from North America.

 

If you're looking at cachers with a high number of finds they probably tend to do a fair amount of travel just to get those high numbers. I haven't even reached 1200 finds and I've got 20 countries. Of course, some people will travel purely for pleasure (and that includes going to find a lot of caches) and some people, like me, are fortunate to be able to travel to far away places for business. Finding a cache a day for a year, or 300 finds in a day would be a lot harder for me.

 

 

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Not every geocache is possible. Just accept that. Should the geocache in space also be archived?

 

I think every cache should be possible. It might not be possible for every individual to complete but it should be possible for at least some people to get to it.

 

To take some examples, I suspect most geocaches might as well be on the moon from the perspective of a wheelchair user. From my understanding (not being a wheelchair user myself) a combination of rocky and muddy paths, steep hills, stiles etc, make a lot of prime caching areas inaccessible to those unable to walk. For fat people like me, climbing trees is a non-starter so if I see a cache is up a tree I don't even attempt it.

 

Personally I think the geocache in space is a silly gimmick but as long as it doesn't result in other caches being denied over proximity issues (and given it's more than 0.1 mile away from any cache by virtue of its altitude it shouldn't) I'd rate it as nothing more than a silly gimmick.

 

If we're going to allow caches that are impossible to remain listed why do we bother archiving caches that have disappeared? Shouldn't we just accept that "not every geocache is possible" and that the box going missing four years ago is merely this cache's way of "not being possible"?

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Someone that lives in the U.S. and rarely travels would find a challenge which requires someone to find caches in 10 different countries nearly impossible, but someone living in Europe could meet the criteria in a week. Placing a challenge cache with that criteria in many areas in Europe would be quite reasonable.

 

In Europe if you really wanted to go for it you could probably bag 10 countries in a couple of days, maybe one day. I'm not sure if the older "over the poles" and "across the water" caches are still around (I did them back in about 2005) but if they are you could bag three countries in the space of a mile.

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The relatively possibility of completing any challenge cache depends on the location of the challenge cache and the available caches within a reasonable travel distance. Someone that lives in the U.S. and rarely travels would find a challenge which requires someone to find caches in 10 different countries nearly impossible, but someone living in Europe could meet the criteria in a week. Placing a challenge cache with that criteria in many areas in Europe would be quite reasonable.

I agree with your main point that the reasonableness of challenge caches depends on their location. But it's also important to note that challenge caches don't have to be attainable by all geocachers in an area or even by most of those geocachers. They only have to be attainable by a reasonable number of geocachers.

 

While many North American geocachers might find it difficult to find caches in 10 countries, I think many areas in North America have a reasonable number of geocachers who could accomplish that challenge. I took a quick look at the 20 Alberta geocachers with the most finds. Three of them had found caches in at least 10 countries. Another had found caches in 9 countries. It's really not that hard, even from North America.

If you're looking at cachers with a high number of finds they probably tend to do a fair amount of travel just to get those high numbers. I haven't even reached 1200 finds and I've got 20 countries. Of course, some people will travel purely for pleasure (and that includes going to find a lot of caches) and some people, like me, are fortunate to be able to travel to far away places for business. Finding a cache a day for a year, or 300 finds in a day would be a lot harder for me.

People with high find counts are going to have an easier time accomplishing many challenge caches, but I think you're still missing the point. The guidelines indicate a challenge cache needs to be attainable by a reasonable number of geocachers. They do not say the challenge must be reasonably attainable by a geocacher who "rarely travels."

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They do not say the challenge must be reasonably attainable by a geocacher who "rarely travels."

They do say that a challenge geocache may not specifically exclude any segment of geocachers. It isn't clear that requiring travel is considered "specifically" excluding cachers who cannot [afford to] travel, but I suspect that this might be taken into consideration. There is clearly going to be some leeway. I don't think Groundspeak wants to forbid all challenges that require travel, or challenge that might require finding high terrain caches that may be out of reach of a segment of geocachers. But unlike traditional caches, challenges have restrictions that they not only appeal to but are attainable by a reasonable number of geocachers. I suspect that ultimately, reviewers will be told not to publish challenges that cannot be attained by a significant segment of geocachers. But since travel types of challenge are likely going to remain popular among a certain segment of geocachers there many be special guidelines that allow them in some instances.

Edited by tozainamboku
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Given discretion to the reviewers is pretty much a necessity. A challenge cache placed in Nevada which requires one to find 300 caches in a day could easily be completed. A challenge cache placed in Peru which requires one to find 300 caches in a day would be pretty difficulty with traveling to the U.S.

 

I agree with this post!

 

The first cache I placed was in January 1st 2014 and I want it to be challenging so, I made a challenge. Initially it would be to find a cache in every Brazilian State, there are 27 states, much less than in US, so the challenge shouldn´t be so difficult, the problem is there are 2 states without active caches so, the reviewer told me I couldn´t publish it so I rephrase the challenge to 25 states and he told me again, sorry can´t publish, it is a possible challenge but not achievable by many geocachers so I changed it for 5 states.

 

In the beginning I was really mad with the reviewer but after he explained it to me and tell me that I can make an easier one now and after a few months or years make an harder one of 15 states and them a really difficult one in 25 or 27 states.

 

It all depends on your country cache´s placement. A 2000 finds challenge in Brazil is impossible, since only around 1500 caches are active...

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If that were the only challenge cache type then I'd agree, however, when a significant number of people create geocaches that have no other redeeming qualities other than it can be used to help complete a challenge, that does have an impact.

One of the best challenge caches that I've seen, The Eyes Have it Challenge, was really more of a challenge to the community to create enough caches to meet the challenge than a challenge to individuals to track down that many existing caches. It worked perfectly, and the caches published in reaction to this -- most of which would have been published anyway, just with different names -- were at least as high quality as any other caches in the area.

 

Although I'm the first to poke fun at the fact that the area now has lots of caches with names that make terrible "puns" -- for lack of a better term -- using the word "eye" in the title that cachers can cringe over for all time.

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If we're going to allow caches that are impossible to remain listed why do we bother archiving caches that have disappeared? Shouldn't we just accept that "not every geocache is possible" and that the box going missing four years ago is merely this cache's way of "not being possible"?

 

There is an essential difference between a cache where the container cannot be found any longer and a challenge cache where not all necessary components are still available, but the cache itself is in perfect condition.

Some cachers might have worked on completed the challenge for months and even years and might have already fulfilled the parts that are not any longer fulfillable. They would be punished by archiving the cache and changing the requirements is also not the best solution in all cases (it might make the challenge easier for example). If no equivalent requirements can be found, it should be ok to leave a challenge active for a reasonable amount of time if there are cachers working on it.

 

Cezanne

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I think every cache should be possible. It might not be possible for every individual to complete but it should be possible for at least some people to get to it.
Well, in the case of the challenge cache in question, it is still possible.

 

It may not be possible for new people who haven't already found a cache that meets the Q requirement (or U requirement, or whatever the "missing letter" is). So as long as there are people who have found a "missing letter" cache, but haven't found the challenge cache yet, I think the challenge cache still has play left in it.

 

Sure, a new challenge cache couldn't be listed with the same requirements, but we're not talking about listing a new challenge cache. We're talking about an existing challenge cache that some people may still be working on, that IMHO should be left alone so those people have a chance to complete the requirements and find the challenge cache.

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They do not say the challenge must be reasonably attainable by a geocacher who "rarely travels."

They do say that a challenge geocache may not specifically exclude any segment of geocachers. It isn't clear that requiring travel is considered "specifically" excluding cachers who cannot [afford to] travel, but I suspect that this might be taken into consideration. There is clearly going to be some leeway. I don't think Groundspeak wants to forbid all challenges that require travel, or challenge that might require finding high terrain caches that may be out of reach of a segment of geocachers.

I find it hard to follow what you're trying to say here.

 

If you're saying that the guidelines forbid challenge caches from excluding geocachers who "rarely travel," then I think you're taking a much stricter view of that guideline than most Volunteer Reviewers. They continue to publish challenge caches that require extensive travel, such as this recent Jasmer challenge located in Germany.

 

As you noted, such a strict interpretation also would likely prevent the publication of any Fizzy challenges (such as this recently published 14 x Fizzy), since they certainly exclude a specific segment of geocachers.

 

Clearly, reviewers are given lots of leeway regarding the regarding the exclusion of specific segments of geocachers. Indeed, I don't recall any specific group of geocachers who seem to be covered by that guideline other than new geocachers. One is no longer allowed, for example, to create a challenge cache that requires geocachers to find 100 caches during 2005, since new geocachers would find it impossible to complete that requirement.

 

But unlike traditional caches, challenges have restrictions that they not only appeal to but are attainable by a reasonable number of geocachers. I suspect that ultimately, reviewers will be told not to publish challenges that cannot be attained by a significant segment of geocachers. But since travel types of challenge are likely going to remain popular among a certain segment of geocachers there many be special guidelines that allow them in some instances.

It's unclear to me what you mean by "a significant segment of geocachers." Does this differ from the current restriction regarding "a reasonable number of geocachers?" I think reviewers already have been told not to publish challenges that cannot be attained by a reasonable number of geocachers.

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If you're saying that the guidelines forbid challenge caches from excluding geocachers who "rarely travel," then I think you're taking a much stricter view of that guideline than most Volunteer Reviewers. They continue to publish challenge caches that require extensive travel, such as this recent Jasmer challenge located in Germany.

 

However, one of the loggers reported that he got rejected a similar cache in the Netherlands some time before and that even a an appeal did not help.

 

Cezanne

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If you're saying that the guidelines forbid challenge caches from excluding geocachers who "rarely travel," then I think you're taking a much stricter view of that guideline than most Volunteer Reviewers. They continue to publish challenge caches that require extensive travel, such as this recent Jasmer challenge located in Germany.

However, one of the loggers reported that he got rejected a similar cache in the Netherlands some time before and that even a an appeal did not help.

But the reason (too difficult to travel a lot) seems to indicate that a reasonable number of geocachers in the Netherlands would be unable to attain the challenge. As I read it (via Google Translate), it's not because the proposed challenge specifically excluded geocachers who "rarely travel." My understanding is that there are many geocachers in Germany who frequently travel. Thus a Jasmer challenge located in Germany might be completed by a reasonable number of geocachers, while a Jasmer challenge located in the Netherlands might be less likely to meet that requirement.

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