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Loved the "DNF Pride" Campaign


JPreto

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:D First of all I really must congratulate Groundspeak for this idea!!! :D

 

I am a fighter in my community (Brazil - São Paulo) against all other geocachers because they don´t bother about DNFs, they say that they are useless and moreover makes other geocachers less keen to go there and look for the cache. I totally disagree with this point of view and always log all caches I visit, with either a FOUND, a DNF and if the case a NEEDS MAINTENANCE, rarely an ARCHIVE.

 

So thank you, thank you Groundspeak to let everybody know how important a DNF can be for the owner!!!! I hope the results from this campaign are great and more and more DNFs are registered!!!!

 

Now the BUT... :blink:

 

Why not make a campaign against Photologs or Throwdows? These are major problems in geocaching, at least in Brazil they are, and for what I read, the same thing happens all over the world.

 

Geocachers want numbers, that is a fact!!!! (otherwise why would anyone log a cache?!?!?)

 

The problem is how they get their numbers, honestly or not... or lets put it, following the rules or not... The rules are clear: No photologs, you must sign the physical logbook in order to log on the site. Right? Many geocachers forget this and if the CO just left the caches there and never did maintenance or abandoned the game anybody can log a FIND even if they haven´t found it or even worse, leave a new cache in the supposed place and log a FOUND. This is the worst case for me, it´s breaking 2 rules: 1st you are not the CO so don´t leave a new box and 2nd log a FOUND in a cache you just placed... right, they forget where they just placed it!!! <_<

 

Again, great "DNF PRIDE" campaign, why not go for the next level?

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So is April 1, puritan day in Brazil?

 

Dean F and his partner Eftie F look remarkably like some geocachers I know, so I wasn't fooled.

 

I do agree that geocachers should not be ashamed of their DNFs and should log them. And perhaps if people were to accept that DNF is a regular part of geocaching and nothing to be ashamed of, there would be fewer throwdowns and photologs.

 

Of course a silly video about some hapless cacher who can't find anything is not about to make people think that DNF is a normal and acceptable outcome. But it was good for a laugh.

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Oh, I imagine Dean F and Eftie F are decently well known with their alter egos around Groundspeak locale, but I imagine they are not well known tocachers in Brazil! They should be. Keep showing one of their pictures on the home page every 4th click, and she may start being world famous to cachers.

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Why not make a campaign against Photologs or Throwdows?

If I recall correctly, there was a Groundspeak newsletter article and a Help Center article that discourage throwdowns. More attention to the issue would be great, though.

 

I'm not so sure about the Newsletter, but the Help Center article appeared in 2013. They are not dated, but I'm positive someone around here who watches the help center closely noted it showed up last year. :)

 

Hmm. I don't know, I don't think they'd go with a "campaign", or even an official blog post on throwdowns (and there has been a blog post and newsletter article about logging your DNF's). I think it would be just a little too controversial, and alienate some throwdowners, many of whom are loyal long-term paying customers (i.e. high number cachers, if I have to say it :ph34r:)

 

EDIT: P.S., I think Dean F. and Eftie F. rule. :)

Edited by Mr.Yuck
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Thank you so much for the opinions and history on these, for me, important subjects!

 

Yes, April Fool´s day is celebrated also in Brazil but after working for almost 14 years in Marketing I can clearly see this as a Pro-DNFing campaign!

 

First a Newsletter in March 3rd, 2014 with the title DNF to Say "I Care" and now the prank of a guy being proud to have 50.000 DNFs it´s a clear message of the campaign which I totally and absolutely love! For me this means that Groundspeak is aware of the recent problems and tries to keep up with the game growth. That is for me a very smart and brave attitude.

 

Apart from not logging DNFs, the major geocaching "on field" problems are Photologing and Throwdowns, of course there are honorable mentions to "cache stealing or damaging", "own cache logging" or "logging caches hidden with the CO", "needs maintenance log deleting" and "not maintaining caches or visiting them over years". But all these other issues seem small comparing to those two.

 

Just an opinion!

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Apart from not logging DNFs, the major geocaching "on field" problems are Photologing and Throwdowns, of course there are honorable mentions to "cache stealing or damaging", "own cache logging" or "logging caches hidden with the CO", "needs maintenance log deleting" and "not maintaining caches or visiting them over years". But all these other issues seem small comparing to those two.

 

Just an opinion!

 

In relation to photologging (and being a relative noob still :laughing: ), I'm interested what people think in relation to photologging a cache that has not been maintained to the point that it is not possible to write on the log at all. I found two caches like this in the last couple of months: One was absolutely sodden, the paper would not take ink anymore. The other was in a tube and all crumpled up and wet so when I tried to extract it with a tweezers, some of the paper came away. I knew even if I got it all out, it wouldn't be possible to write on it. I photologged both of those: I found the cache but I couldn't write on the log.

 

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but what do others do in similar cases?

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Apart from not logging DNFs, the major geocaching "on field" problems are Photologing and Throwdowns, of course there are honorable mentions to "cache stealing or damaging", "own cache logging" or "logging caches hidden with the CO", "needs maintenance log deleting" and "not maintaining caches or visiting them over years". But all these other issues seem small comparing to those two.

 

Just an opinion!

 

In relation to photologging (and being a relative noob still :laughing: ), I'm interested what people think in relation to photologging a cache that has not been maintained to the point that it is not possible to write on the log at all. I found two caches like this in the last couple of months: One was absolutely sodden, the paper would not take ink anymore. The other was in a tube and all crumpled up and wet so when I tried to extract it with a tweezers, some of the paper came away. I knew even if I got it all out, it wouldn't be possible to write on it. I photologged both of those: I found the cache but I couldn't write on the log.

 

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but what do others do in similar cases?

It might be best to either look at old threads on this subject, or start a new thread, yourself. :) You're going to get divided opinion about it, although I think opinion would lean more to it being ok if you ask permission of the cache owner (or said in your log that the owner could delete the find if they didn't like it).

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I think Dean F. and Eftie F. rule. :)

Awww....thanks for the shout out! :) Been lurking in the forums for awhile, but I got excited when I saw a discussion pop up that mentioned Dean & me.

 

Nice discussion, JPreto...when we first split our joint account into two separate accounts Dean was incredibly discouraged. He saw that other people were dropping throwdowns when they couldn't find a cache and then logging a find, instead of a DNF. We talked, in depth, about the different ways that people choose to play the game (worldwide) and he decided that if he didn't find a cache, he didn't think it was quite fair to replace it and get the smiley (he has a high moral compass AND a law degree - LOL!). Soooo...wanting to respect the owners that placed those caches he politely logs his DNFs. I guess our view is that people are going to play the game that they decide is "fair" to them, even if it's strongly discouraged by Groundspeak. Hopefully between the blog posts that come from GS and people talking to others in their own communities we can create more awareness about throwdowns....AND photologs, right? We had a friend get their online logs deleted when the CO checked the logsheet and couldn't find their name - they confessed to us that they didn't have a pen with them, so they took a picture with the cache and thought that would work. :( A name on the logsheet is one of the main rules of the game...so now if they forget a pen, they write a note on the cache page that says they visited the cache and will be back later to claim their smiley.

 

Dean certainly wouldn't be in the position he is today if he had thrown down a new cache every time he couldn't find one. So proud of him. :)

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I guess our view is that people are going to play the game that they decide is "fair" to them, even if it's strongly discouraged by Groundspeak. Hopefully between the blog posts that come from GS and people talking to others in their own communities we can create more awareness about throwdowns....AND photologs, right? We had a friend get their online logs deleted when the CO checked the logsheet and couldn't find their name - they confessed to us that they didn't have a pen with them, so they took a picture with the cache and thought that would work. :( A name on the logsheet is one of the main rules of the game...so now if they forget a pen, they write a note on the cache page that says they visited the cache and will be back later to claim their smiley.)

Once upon a time, even though Groundspeak said that you should write something in the log when you found a cache, they made no official connection between that and logging a find online. They did decide to make cache owners responsible for quality control of online posts. That meant that cache owners could delete logs that appeared bogus or not within stated requirements.

 

Of course that lead to cache owners having all sorts of additional logging requirements beyond signing logs and deleting many logs that people legitimately thought they deserved.

 

Fortunately most cache owner see this as a fun activity and are willing to take a cacher's word when they say they found a cache. Even when the owner is suspicious of a bogus find, most will accept all kinds of alternate proof the the cache was found even if the finder was unable to sign the log for some reason.

 

Groundspeak's mistake was changing the rules to disallow other ALRs in a way that lent credence to the puritan idea that you must sign the log to post an online find log. Lackeys should have listened to their boss and understood that "Bickering over the rules of a cache "find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find. "

 

My belief is that Groundspeak should encourage cache owners to be more lenient in situations like a forgotten pen, a wet log sheet, or a stuck cache, and not be deleting logs over technicalities like signing logs. Only if the cache owner truly believes the find is bogus should they even consider deleting someone's log.

 

I think the OP's point of photologging and throwdowns have to do with cachers who DNF a cache and assume that the cache wasn't there. They seem to believe that a DNF on a missing cache is an unfair punishment, since if there is no cache to find how could anyone find it. They look for ways to justify a found log in this case. Sometimes they are reinforced when cache owners confirm the cache was missing and tell them to log it anyhow. More common is to claim a find by turning the cache into a virtual and posting a picture of ground-zero, or by replacing the cache with a throwdown and logging a find for that. In this case I do agree that Groundspeak educate cachers that logging a DNF is not a punishment or a sign of failure. You did not find the cache. If you haven't found it before and don't know where or how it was hidden, you can't be sure that it is gone. Taking a picture or leaving a replacement doesn't change that you did not find a cache.

 

This is not a new phenomenon. People have been leaving replacements or converting missing caches into virtual virtual caches since before even I began caching. But in the past the general community would frown on the activity. Now many cache owners still wouldn't delete the logs. After all they would serve as evidence that some people would seek any excuse to turn a DNF into a smiley. Even better if a subsequent finder did find the original cache. And many cache owners feel guilty that they have done maintenance and they too feel that a DNF is punishing the other cacher for their failure as an owner. Power trails that encourage throw downs as a way to deal with the maintenance haven't help either.

 

While Dean F. is hapless cacher who can't find an ammo can if he trips over it, what Dean and Eftie can do is to let cachers know:

  • Even the most experienced cacher can DNF an easy cache sometimes;
  • More difficult and remote caches sometime don't get found for years at a time, but that doesn't mean they aren't still there;
  • That if you want to help out a cache owner who seems to be having trouble checking up on a cache that has a few DNFs, ask them first before you leave a replacement;
  • That if the cache owner appears to have abandoned a cache or stopped geocaching, and the cache has been DNF'd by the last few cachers, that maybe it's better to archive the cache to open up space for others to hide their own cache; and
  • There is no shame in logging a DNF.

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This is not a new phenomenon. People have been leaving replacements or converting missing caches into virtual virtual caches since before even I began caching. But in the past the general community would frown on the activity. Now many cache owners still wouldn't delete the logs. After all they would serve as evidence that some people would seek any excuse to turn a DNF into a smiley. Even better if a subsequent finder did find the original cache. And many cache owners feel guilty that they have done maintenance and they too feel that a DNF is punishing the other cacher for their failure as an owner. Power trails that encourage throw downs as a way to deal with the maintenance haven't help either.

In the past, I seem to recall you placing yourself amongst the cache owners who wouldn't delete the logs of geocachers who place throwdowns, take a picture of GZ without finding the container, or even armchairing a "Found It." Your above comments seem to indicate that you might have changed your mind.

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UAU!!! Those comments are great, thanks "Eftie F." and "geoyokozuna"!!!!

 

The goal of my post was really to try and say that taking a position on logging DNFs is great!!!!

 

No shame on loging a DNF what so ever... In Brazil, as there are not many active players, 320 different players in 2013 and less then 1500 active caches (I know, it´s hard to get your stats up) but this also means that there is a lot of caches that the CO is Missing In Action and local players just avoid those caches because they know the owners are "offline" for more than 2-3 years and their caches are long gone. Some greedy players, knowing this use these caches as a great +1 opportunity, owner will never delete the log since is no longer active and if they place a throwdown just makes them more legitimate as "geoyokozuna" says... Even tho I contacted some reviewrs about these caches they said the orders are that the CO is responsible for the cache and since the cache is now ok (because of recent throwdown) nothing they can do. Even if the cache is long gone and the visiting player clearly states in the log it is a photolog, no one will delete this log...

 

All this "badly teatches" new players to this wonderful game of Geocaching, giving them bad references and showing them how to prevaricate! :(

 

Maybe the problem is not only "educating" the geocachers that logging a DNF is not a bad thing but also that placing thowdowns or doing photologs totally goes agains the simple primary rule of the game: "Find the cache, sign it, log it!". This is what I try and state here!

 

I´m not trying to discuss the reason why this happens because it is simple, people want a +1 even if this means breaking the rules of the game otherwise they would just log a DNF or not log at all! I bet they always win in Solitary too... B)

 

Happy caching, happy DNFing and more honesty since no prize is given for high numbers... I can´t imagine what would happen if there was a prize! :blink:

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I am a fighter in my community (Brazil - São Paulo) against all other geocachers because they don´t bother about DNFs

 

It's really sad that you feel like that... mostly because it is a lie.

When you finish to think about the game as a battle, you will have so much fun.

 

When you arrived, I counselled you to log all the DNFs, and NMs when you have strong clues that the container was missing, or need any maintenance... not every time you just can't find it.

It is not exactly what you did, was it?

Of course, some owners are not happy to receive NMs on such occassions... and they are free to react.

Considering this like a war, it is foolish.

 

What you consider purism, others may call it bullying... please think about it for a while.

It would be good for everyone, J.

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I am a fighter in my community (Brazil - São Paulo) against all other geocachers because they don´t bother about DNFs

 

It's really sad that you feel like that... mostly because it is a lie.

 

 

I think you are on the wrong foot here... We are talking about PRO-DNF!!!

 

But in any case I am a liar now... First time I hear this! We talked about this same subject in October 2013 both by direct emails and by the Brazilian Forum (Here in Portuguese, sorry). You did advise me to place a NM in cases I was almost sure that the cache was not there and that I did! Since most cache owners here don´t have a close relationship with their caches most of them are not regularly visited by the owners, lets say at least yearly. Out of almost 300 caches I had visit in São Paulo area only around 200 FOUNDS and 100 DNFs... from these 100 DNFs, after your advice, I placed 70 NM and until now only 12 caches were actually there.

 

In any case this means I was wrong in placing a NM in 12 out of 70 caches... Big deal! What about the other 58 caches that could have been visited by other geocachers? What about the constant photologs and throwdowns? If someone places a NM in a cache of mine, the first thing I immediately do is Disable it, then in the next few weeks I go there and check it, replace it or just say it was here, you just didn´t find it. If everybody did this, the amount of caches that are abandoned by owners and susceptible to these acts would clearly diminish.

 

You are accusing me of being a liar because I say others think DNFs lead people not to visit the DNF´d caches, I can quote this on several emails written by the geocachers of my community... It´s their opinion, not mine... I know I´m not lying so... no harm done... <_<

 

By the way, thanks for the early advice because it really helped changing the way people are geocaching here. Now maintenance is done quickly and not so many long term temporary disabled caches (even tho some are almost doing anniversary) and not so many NM caches (even tho many caches are also with NM for more than 4 months). People are logging more DNFs and most of them take pictures and attach of the logbook that helps the COs verifying false logs without having to physically visit the cache!!! B)

 

I´m not publicly accusing anybody from being a liar, moreover when I have told you facts that show the opposite... I really can´t see your point here... And by the way, bullying is another story! :blink:

 

Geocaching is a game! It as rules and if Groundspeak makes a campaign on PRO-DNF this is my way of just saying thank you for trying to improve the quality of the game we love!!!

Edited by JPreto
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But in any case I am a liar now... First time I hear this!

 

You said you are against all other geocachers, that don't care about DNFs. I'm also a geocacher in Brasil (even with a shared cache in São Paulo) and I do care about DNFs... and of course, I am not the only one... far from that. Simple as that.

 

How can someone be so vain, to proclaim himself as the only one playing correctly... while everybody else is wrong?

Edited by Kelux
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But in any case I am a liar now... First time I hear this!

 

You said you are against all other geocachers, that don't care about DNFs. I'm also a geocacher in Brasil (even with a shared cache in São Paulo) and I do care about DNFs... and of course, I am not the only one... far from that. Simple as that.

 

How can someone be so vain, to proclaim himself as the only one playing correctly... while everybody else is wrong?

 

Ohhhhhhhh.... I am sorry for not including you in the São Paulo geocacher´s list since you have 1 (one) shared cache in SP and when was your last geocaching day here, somewhere in 2012 right???? But no worries, you are on both my Manaus geocacher´s list and in the Brazil geocacher´s list!!!! :wub:

 

But since the problem with my first post were 2 words, inside this sentence:

 

"I am a fighter in my community (Brazil - São Paulo) against all other geocachers because they don´t bother about DNFs"

 

I can surely rephrase this to: (hopefully not lying any more!)

 

"I am an influencer in my community (Brazil - São Paulo) against most other geocachers because they don´t bother about DNFs"

 

This way I am including you and also some geocachers I probably haven´t meet yet... But, the ones I meet in São Paulo ALL of them don´t post many of the DNFs!!!! And it´s not about being right or wrong, it´s about posting or not their DNFs. :huh:

 

Do you want me to edit my first post? Can we now go back with the initial topic: Be Proud to log you DNFs campaign? :unsure:

Edited by JPreto
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My geocaching territory is the entire world, and I will keep on logging my Finds, DNFs, NMs and NAs, anytime my conscience tells me to do so.

 

I personally know geocachers with dozens of thousands of Finds, that don't log DNFs.

Not logging a DNF is against the guidelines??

 

I learned many years ago that I can't force the others to follow my ethics... nevertheless, they have their own, also... and I have no right to judge them, nor you... maybe only the owner of a given cache.

 

The campaign that I will gladly cherish will be The Best Finds are Other Geocachers... give it a try yourself too! :)

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This is not a new phenomenon. People have been leaving replacements or converting missing caches into virtual virtual caches since before even I began caching. But in the past the general community would frown on the activity. Now many cache owners still wouldn't delete the logs. After all they would serve as evidence that some people would seek any excuse to turn a DNF into a smiley. Even better if a subsequent finder did find the original cache. And many cache owners feel guilty that they have done maintenance and they too feel that a DNF is punishing the other cacher for their failure as an owner. Power trails that encourage throw downs as a way to deal with the maintenance haven't help either.

In the past, I seem to recall you placing yourself amongst the cache owners who wouldn't delete the logs of geocachers who place throwdowns, take a picture of GZ without finding the container, or even armchairing a "Found It." Your above comments seem to indicate that you might have changed your mind.

You have misinterpreted what I have said in the past. I've never said that owners should not delete truly bogus logs. What I have said is that I don't get my knickers in a twist because some cache owner may allow such logs. This is a light, fun game not to be taken so seriously. Many cache owners may allow throwdowns and photologs for various reasons and they may choose to allow cachers to log a found online in these situations. Clearly cache owners can delete these logs (and probably should). But it doesn't bother me if they don't.

 

JPreto points out that part of the problem is absent cache owners. Now that the game has been around for 14 years, there are plenty of caches that were placed by people who are no longer participating in the game. Some finders may be taking advantage of these cache by leaving throwdowns or photologs. Since there is no cache owner to delete these logs, they don't get deleted (meh). In some cases the community may view a cache as historic and worthy of keeping, and see the throwdown as a way to keep a cache going. But in many case there is no good reason for keeping these caches going and a DNF along with a NA may be the more responsible way to log these caches. Groundspeak and the reviewers are likely to leave it up to the community how to deal with ownerless caches, though more and more they are trying to encourage the NA in place of a throwdown or claiming a find because the cache is missing.

 

In the meantime I'm enjoying the Brazilian soccer match. At least until a moderator shows a red card.

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Hi there folks! Just wanted to share my two cents on the topic and also to shed a little light on Geocaching here in Brazil. The video from Groundspeak was obviously an April Fool's prank and as such should not be taken so seriously. Nevertheless, if it eventually raises the topic to the discussion, let's also not take the game so seriously. And by "not take it so seriously" I don't mean being lazy or being relapse about our hides, finds, DNFs or any other kind of logs. I am frequently upset about caches that are not well kept or about cache owners that just disappear and will eventually log accordingly. But it stops there, I will just walk to the next cache and will not make a turmoil about it.

 

I am all for well maintained, well placed and well thought caches (hope those that found some of my hides agree... LOL!) but there isn't much we can do about ones that don't fall in those categories. Whenever I can, I carry a cache maintenance kit and will be glad to perform maintenance in caches that are in need. That helps! My opinion is that GC should really be a collaborative activity instead of a war. Those that are not using "best practices" should be educated by the veterans and not be yelled at.

 

Just as many other cachers here in Brazil that I personally know, I'm not going for the numbers, I am mostly doing it for the fun and for the opportunity to get to know new places I would've never visited if it wasn't for Geocaching. The activity is indeed pretty small here, but most Brazilian cachers are passionate about the game, real enthusiasts that thrive to make it a fun game for everyone visiting the boxes.

 

Again, this is all about having fun and getting to know new places. And making friends. And having fun. Fun.

 

Just my two cents. Greetings from São Paulo, Brazil!

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In the meantime I'm enjoying the Brazilian soccer match. At least until a moderator shows a red card.

 

Portugal vs Portugal playing in Brazil... a World Cup preparation match!!! It´s a pity we are living almost 3000km apart.

 

My geocaching territory is the entire world

 

I love Socrates! If you see my profile this my first sentence... since I enrolled geocaching!

 

I personally know geocachers with dozens of thousands of Finds, that don't log DNFs.

Not logging a DNF is against the guidelines??

 

Not logging DNFs is not against the rules, as it is not to log FOUND IT in own caches, Groundspeak just mentions that "It is considered "bad form" to log a find on your own geocache" so, it´s not against the rules. If someone wants to do it they can do it and since they are the CO no one can delete the logs... But, the same as not logging DNFs, logging FOUND IT in own caches is, for me, lack of etiquette.

 

In this topic, I was just praising Groundspeak act on trying to show how important it is to log DNFs for a CO, for me this is sharing and not being selfish. It´s hard to forget to log a find but very easy to forget to log a DNF... just this.

 

The campaign that I will gladly cherish will be The Best Finds are Other Geocachers... give it a try yourself too! :)

 

Aaaaaannnnnnnd we are back!!!! After this short break we are back on the subject of this topic... a campaign that suggests making friends among geocachers! Nice idea, I have some in Portugal and none yet in Brazil... maybe it is a cultural difference, nevertheless I attend events here and talk to them in many occasions.

 

I am all for well maintained, well placed and well thought caches

 

This not only is true, it is a fact!!!! After finding some of "ricardomt" caches I personally congratulated him and said keep up with the good caches... :wub:

Edited by JPreto
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But, the ones I meet in São Paulo ALL of them don´t post many of the DNFs!!!! And it´s not about being right or wrong, it´s about posting or not their DNFs. :huh:

 

 

In my point of view this game is all about collaboration:

 

- I don't care about photologing because, with the evolution of the game/website functionality's, the logbook function is to prove that you found the cache and a photo does it too (you can leave your message to CO and others on your post at the cache webpage) so it helps in some situations (pen doesn't work, pencil is broken, forget the pen, no space on logbook, etc) without any prejudice to the game. On the other hand, if you have to perform a task after you found the cache to be able to sign the logbook, I think that the photo can't replace the signature and CO have to delete the smile.

 

- I don't like throwdowns (you have to find the cache) but I believe you have to help others on the cache maintenance if you can (new logbooks, logging NM, changing a broken container, replacing a pen that doesn't work anymore, etc)... Collaboration!!

 

- I log ALL my DNF's and I don't like when I realise that people didn't found the cache but got the smile just because it gives incorrect information to all others.

Let me be very clear: I don't care about others getting a smile if they think they deserve it for any reason (and some logs are really fun; you can find people writing impossible histories about a cache). It is against the rules (if the cache was not found) and the CO can always delete the log if there is no signature on logbook, a photo to prove, a very precise cache container description, etc... but I think anyone giving wrong signs to all others is something that is not good for the game as it works like an incorrect hint.

 

- I love numbers as it allows me to play a lot of different games at same time but I strongly agree that It is not about numbers.

 

I am improving my vision of the game everyday and I think people forget that IT IS JUST A GAME so you are supposed to HAVE FUN playing it...

 

Regards, Laferre.

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- I don't care about photologing because, with the evolution of the game/website functionality's, the logbook function is to prove that you found the cache and a photo does it too

 

I think you are confusing 2 things, logging a photo and photologing. Photologing is the act of NOT FINDING THE CACHE but taking a picture that you have been in the correct spot and posting a photo as proof you where there. Basically this is like Waymarking, another game that also belongs to Groundspeak that is a totally different game. Logging a photo as proof that you saw the cache and, at least, opened it, is what you mention. I love when I see a log like this: "I took photo of the cache but I couldn´t reach it so, I log this found with the picture of it". I can clearly remember 2 cases, that I posted my opinion in that cache, and not only was severely criticized as they asked me to delete the Note.

 

- I log ALL my DNF's and I don't like when I realise that people didn't found the cache but got the smile just because it gives incorrect information to all others.

 

I´m glad to hear that you changed your opinion on this subject. I recall you saying, in some of the first meetings in Ibirapuera Park, when I started talking about this, that you DID NOT log all your DNFs, specially if you where in a hurry and couldn´t find the cache quickly since, as you put it: "It wouldn´t be fair to the CO". In these cases you would not log the DNF and come back another time to search properly. As I recall these were your words.

 

Funny that when I write in Portuguese in the Brazilian Groundspeak Forum specifically about these, for me, off this topic discussions I get virtually no answers, now speaking in English it´s the 3rd participating Brazilian geocacher. Maybe I should start writing in English, in the Brazilian Forum to get at least some participation.

 

I am also very criticized by writing my logs in English so both foreigners (531 different geocachers in 2013) and Brazilians (284 different geocachers in 2013) can understand the logs since English is, like it or not, the most frequent common language between 2 foreigners. Talking about collaboration between geocachers...

 

So, my initial post is now a discussion on how geocaching is made in Brazil... Why don´t we split this topic into 2 topics and open the discussion independently? Or, if you want you can just participate in Portuguese in the topic I opened in the Brazil Forum (October 23rd, 2013) called GeoTrash em SP and give your opinion there. Only the moderator "ruidealmeida" (aka "Kelux") expressed his opinion.

 

Can we please go back to the inicial topic, the Groundspeak PRO-DNFing Campaign and stop this very country specific discussion that can and should be held in the Brazilian Forum? :huh:

Edited by JPreto
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- I don't care about photologing because, with the evolution of the game/website functionality's, the logbook function is to prove that you found the cache and a photo does it too

 

I think you are confusing 2 things, logging a photo and photologing. Photologing is the act of NOT FINDING THE CACHE but taking a picture that you have been in the correct spot and posting a photo as proof you where there. Basically this is like Waymarking, another game that also belongs to Groundspeak that is a totally different game. Logging a photo as proof that you saw the cache and, at least, opened it, is what you mention. I love when I see a log like this: "I took photo of the cache but I couldn´t reach it so, I log this found with the picture of it". I can clearly remember 2 cases, that I posted my opinion in that cache, and not only was severely criticized as they asked me to delete the Note.

 

- I log ALL my DNF's and I don't like when I realise that people didn't found the cache but got the smile just because it gives incorrect information to all others.

 

I´m glad to hear that you changed your opinion on this subject. I recall you saying, in some of the first meetings in Ibirapuera Park, when I started talking about this, that you DID NOT log all your DNFs, specially if you where in a hurry and couldn´t find the cache quickly since, as you put it: "It wouldn´t be fair to the CO". In these cases you would not log the DNF and come back another time to search properly. As I recall these were your words.

 

Funny that when I write in Portuguese in the Brazilian Groundspeak Forum specifically about these, for me, off this topic discussions I get virtually no answers, now speaking in English it´s the 3rd participating Brazilian geocacher. Maybe I should start writing in English, in the Brazilian Forum to get at least some participation.

 

I am also very criticized by writing my logs in English so both foreigners (531 different geocachers in 2013) and Brazilians (284 different geocachers in 2013) can understand the logs since English is, like it or not, the most frequent common language between 2 foreigners. Talking about collaboration between geocachers...

 

So, my initial post is now a discussion on how geocaching is made in Brazil... Why don´t we split this topic into 2 topics and open the discussion independently? Or, if you want you can just participate in Portuguese in the topic I opened in the Brazil Forum (October 23rd, 2013) called GeoTrash em SP and give your opinion there. Only the moderator "ruidealmeida" (aka "Kelux") expressed his opinion.

 

Can we please go back to the inicial topic, the Groundspeak PRO-DNFing Campaign and stop this very country specific discussion that can and should be held in the Brazilian Forum? :huh:

 

As I wrote I don't care if people log a smile if they think they deserve it for any reason but I don't like if this person don't explicit it on the log text because it gives a wrong sign to all others (like a wrong hint) about the container.

 

No, I didn't change my mind.

I don't log DNF if I arrived at GZ but I couldn't search for the cache for any reason. On this situation I post a NOTE.

If I could look for the cache I log a DNF or a SMILE. I also track the number of visits I did to each cache.

It is a fact with 165 DNFs (3 on the very first day, 6 on the first week, 17 on the first month, etc) and 524 SMILES up to date to support it.

You are confusing what I told you with other one opinion that was exactly what you wrote.

 

I tried to use Brazilian forum here but the community is using a FB forum instead... I am sure you will find a lot of discussions over there (for now it is waist of time to use Brazilian Groundspeak forum - in portuguese, english, chinese or whatever).

 

When I started on the game I was posting my logs just in english as it is a world wide game and english is the standard. During an event people show me that if we really want to increase the game in Brazil we have to include more people and the english is something that unfortunately most Brazillians didn't understand. They asked me to change to portuguese. I decided to post on both languages in Brazil. I gave this suggestion to you and I really don't understand why you don't do it but it is up to you; I think it is not a good decision if you really want to influencer the game in the country and help it to grow but it is your choice.

 

In my opinion we needs a pro-maintenance campaign... DNF is part of the maintenance.

 

I hope to see you on the Event tomorrow. Regards, Laferre.

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From the Forum Guidelines:

Private discussions: Sometimes, a discussion thread strays off into a friendly dialogue or a heated debate among a very small number of users. For these exchanges, we ask that you please use the Private Message feature that is provided through the Groundspeak forums, or the Geocaching.com e-mail system. Public forum posts should be reserved for matters of interest to the general geocaching community. Reminder: All contact with other community members through Groundspeak's sites is subject to the Terms of Use.

Thanks for observing this Guideline.

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From the Forum Guidelines:

Private discussions: Sometimes, a discussion thread strays off into a friendly dialogue or a heated debate among a very small number of users. For these exchanges, we ask that you please use the Private Message feature that is provided through the Groundspeak forums, or the Geocaching.com e-mail system. Public forum posts should be reserved for matters of interest to the general geocaching community. Reminder: All contact with other community members through Groundspeak's sites is subject to the Terms of Use.

Thanks for observing this Guideline.

 

Well, I for one am glad to see there is a small, but thriving cache community in Brazil. I'll have to add that to the list of The U.S., Canada, most, but not all of Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan. And pretty much nowhere else :lol:

 

I've been at this a long time. Although it never bothered me too much, it is so totally obvious that the majority of Geocachers are embarrassed to log DNF's. As someone who has logged almost 400, and recently did a DNF Challenge cache (no longer allowed under the current guidelines, but Grandfathered), I don't get it. I see no problem with the newsletter, the blog, and a cute April Fools campaign encouraging people to log their DNF's.

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Well, I for one am glad to see there is a small, but thriving cache community in Brazil. I'll have to add that to the list of The U.S., Canada, most, but not all of Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan. And pretty much nowhere else :lol:

Actually it's Portugal and they've had a thriving geocaching community there for a long time. I remember once looking at a map of the Iberian peninsula and noting how you could tell the border between Spain and Portugal from the difference in cache density. And I've noted in the past the participation in this forum by Portuguese geocachers.

 

What's new for me is the number of Portuguese who are finding work in Brazil due to the economic downturn in Europe. It is not surprising to find geocachers among those who have made the move. It is also not surprising to find a different attitude in the former colony. Brazilians are already known for being laid back and fun loving. No wonder that they don't take the game as seriously as in Portugal. Still I believe this has been a good discussion on why logging DNFs is important and why there may be good reasons to encourage use of DNF in place of questionable Found logs even when you are just having fun.

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Well, I for one am glad to see there is a small, but thriving cache community in Brazil. I'll have to add that to the list of The U.S., Canada, most, but not all of Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan. And pretty much nowhere else :lol:

What's new for me is the number of Portuguese who are finding work in Brazil due to the economic downturn in Europe.

You are right but it is not my case... I married a Brazilian! So tell me about differences in culture because, let me tell you... I KNOW THEM!!!!

 

DNFing is a great thing if you don´t find the cache... but I really understand why you can´t do Challenges that have negative goals, like DNF, imagine people putting more DNFs them they put now photologs!!!! There is no way you have a reason (if it´s not harmful) to delete a DNF... so, how many caches are there in the whole world? Why not DNF them all... I never found them!!!! :lol:

 

If there was a rule of some sort that allowed Reviewers to delete logs from caches that the CO is absent it would be very nice... Of course, this would be more work for the poor reviewers but also put some responsibility on all of us to just inform the reviewers about these cases. Just an idea!

 

Maybe a campaign to show the differences between Geocaching and Waymarking? Saying clearly that one is with caches another one is without caches? Maybe people would understand that photologing is actually another game, by the same company, called Waymarking!!!!

Edited by JPreto
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As someone who has logged almost 400...

 

I have 213 myself... not a bad rate, I guess :). Please don't get mad with me, but I noticed that you have 2 double-finds (2666 in 2664 different caches).

 

Whoa, you're brutal man. But I can explain. The reviewers were much more lax in the old days. :laughing: One of those finds, I can tell you was a traditional that was converted to, I KID YOU NOT, a 4 leg multi with the same GC number. The other one was moved about 1/4 mile in the same park. Both these happened 2006 at the latest.

 

Of course if I lived 200 miles SW, and two States over, I could have thousands of double finds for attending events 125 times for finding temporary caches 200 feet apart. But I don't roll with that. :ph34r:

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The topic of this thread is the "DNF Pride" video and encouraging the proper logging of DNF's. It's not about double logging. Please stay on-topic. Thank you.

 

Oh, I'm sure he just looked up my DNF's at Project-GC, and noticed it. :laughing: I'm a proud DNF'er. I have DNF pride, baby. I, like the characters Dean F. and Eftie F. (whom are in reality Groundspeak Lackey's in case anyone hasn't figured it out), encourage people to log those DNF's.

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