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alsterdrache

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Or imagine a new cache type where there is a physical cache, but you may log that find when you find the container, yet you can also check a box that you have completed the challenge--and that completion is added to your "finds" total, and recorded in stats as a separate type of "find".

 

That is a great idea!

 

[FEATURE] Challenge Points

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Mentioned this long ago in previous discussions...

 

If you take the physical out of the Challenge Cache, then there is zero reason to list most challenge caches at any location - unlike Virtual-type caches where you still have to do something at gz. Take the physical out of Challenge Caches, and you end the current concept of challenge caches (find at gz, and qualify)

If you create the new concept where challenge caches are locationless, then you're re-creating the container idea that was Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. You end up with a much less desireable experience (because you can do them all over, regardless of your location; and you no longer have any physical cache to look for in order to complete it), and you also introduce the potential for loads of duplicates. And if you block duplicates, then you make it much less desireable for people to create them.

 

Effectively, Challenge Caches are popular as they are now because of what they are now. If you change any core concept of the current challenge cache, you effectively kill the challenge caching aspect of geocaching. (any variation has either already been attempted and killed off, or it simply will not have the reach or demographic attraction they currently do).

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If you take the physical out of the Challenge Cache, then there is zero reason to list most challenge caches at any location - unlike Virtual-type caches where you still have to do something at gz. Take the physical out of Challenge Caches, and you end the current concept of challenge caches (find at gz, and qualify)

If you create the new concept where challenge caches are locationless, then you're re-creating the container idea that was Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. You end up with a much less desireable experience (because you can do them all over, regardless of your location; and you no longer have any physical cache to look for in order to complete it), and you also introduce the potential for loads of duplicates. And if you block duplicates, then you make it much less desireable for people to create them.

I'd be OK with that.

 

I personally think challenge caches would be better handled along the lines of Souvenirs. If you find a cache on every day of the year, earn a souvenir. There could be various souvenirs for caching streaks of various lengths. Souvenirs for finding caches in every county of a state, for the Delorme challenges, etc.

 

People who accomplish these achievements could be rewarded and acknowledged even if there wasn't a particular challenge cache near where they live. Currently it's possible for two people accomplish the same challenge and one suddenly gets to log a find on a cache whereas the other gets nothing simply because of where they may happen to live. It's also possible that two people find the exact same cache but one is allowed to record it as a Find whereas the other cannot, simply based upon whether they completed some arbitrary requirements.

 

(1) The problem is you can't claim a found it log, even though you found it. You may not have a problem with that, but I do. A found it log means you found it. That's why it is called a found it log.

 

(2) If the things you do result in finding the cache (code breaking, math, etc), it isn't arbitrary. The task results in a solution that takes you to a cache. It is the personal whim of a geocacher to decide whether you completed a challenge cache, therefore it is arbitrary.

 

(3) The puzzle location is near the final location, so it has a connection to the cache. A challenge like finding a cache every day for 366 days doesn't have a connection to any location.

 

Given that those statements were made more than three years ago and we still have the exact same situation, I'm not holding my breath that there will be any changes to the current system. :unsure:

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I personally think challenge caches would be better handled along the lines of Souvenirs. If you find a cache on every day of the year, earn a souvenir. There could be various souvenirs for caching streaks of various lengths. Souvenirs for finding caches in every county of a state, for the Delorme challenges, etc.

Yep, this is the route that removes the physical cache-finding component of Challenge Caches. It's a very different concept that removes a loved component of it (because it's still within the realm of finding physical geocaches), and ultimately, imo, would effectively kill the joy of 'challenge caching'. It just makes it into a statistical badge, instead of an accomplishment consisting of physically finding, and statistically accomplishing.

 

(1) The problem is you can't claim a found it log, even though you found it. You may not have a problem with that, but I do. A found it log means you found it. That's why it is called a found it log.

 

(2) If the things you do result in finding the cache (code breaking, math, etc), it isn't arbitrary. The task results in a solution that takes you to a cache. It is the personal whim of a geocacher to decide whether you completed a challenge cache, therefore it is arbitrary.

 

(3) The puzzle location is near the final location, so it has a connection to the cache. A challenge like finding a cache every day for 366 days doesn't have a connection to any location.

 

Given that those statements were made more than three years ago and we still have the exact same situation, I'm not holding my breath that there will be any changes to the current system. :unsure:

Right, my belief is that Challenge Caching only has two options: Exist as it currently is (physical cache and accomplishment), or the concept itself is done for. If there can be a variation in how the challenge cache is presented within the site, it could survive, but those discussions are clearly proving very complex :) (different cache type? new log type? automated verification? etc etc)

Edited by thebruce0

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I personally think challenge caches would be better handled along the lines of Souvenirs. If you find a cache on every day of the year, earn a souvenir. There could be various souvenirs for caching streaks of various lengths. Souvenirs for finding caches in every county of a state, for the Delorme challenges, etc.

Yep, this is the route that removes the physical cache-finding component of Challenge Caches. It's a very different concept that removes a loved component of it (because it's still within the realm of finding physical geocaches), and ultimately, imo, would effectively kill the joy of 'challenge caching'. It just makes it into a statistical badge, instead of an accomplishment consisting of physically finding, and statistically accomplishing.

 

But look how the "7 Souvenirs of August" are making multis, hybrids, etc. popular! Some caches that haven't been found more than a couple of times are now all the range! Why? Cuz they can get a souvenir.

 

I think if people can get a badge for all the world to see, the appeal of challenges may actually increase. Now you just get a +1 to the find count.

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I think if people can get a badge for all the world to see, the appeal of challenges may actually increase. Now you just get a +1 to the find count.

 

Can't we do both?

 

The points idea has evolved into Challenge Stars:

 

348a58da-cc7d-4f5e-bb64-1690fa0062cf.png

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But look how the "7 Souvenirs of August" are making multis, hybrids, etc. popular! Some caches that haven't been found more than a couple of times are now all the range! Why? Cuz they can get a souvenir.

 

I think if people can get a badge for all the world to see, the appeal of challenges may actually increase. Now you just get a +1 to the find count.

This is true. It seems to me most people panned Souvenirs when they were first released but I see more and more people making extra effort to earn them. The appeal of a Fizzy souvenir could be widespread amongst the whole caching population and not just people who happen to be near a Fizzy challenge cache.

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But look how the "7 Souvenirs of August" are making multis, hybrids, etc. popular! Some caches that haven't been found more than a couple of times are now all the range! Why? Cuz they can get a souvenir.

 

I think if people can get a badge for all the world to see, the appeal of challenges may actually increase. Now you just get a +1 to the find count.

This is true. It seems to me most people panned Souvenirs when they were first released but I see more and more people making extra effort to earn them. The appeal of a Fizzy souvenir could be widespread amongst the whole caching population and not just people who happen to be near a Fizzy challenge cache.

I would guess that some of the more general stat-driven accomplishments would be easy enough to link to an official souvenir. Fizzy, 366 days, etc are all easily created by a query of the stats Groundspeak already collates and displays for users.

 

Now, back to the "new" cache type, or icon...

 

thebruce0 and I have agreement here. I don't think that "challenge caches" should become altogether "virtual". The find of a cache can certainly be a reward for completing a challenge. So, to that end, I think we can go back to what was discussed many pages ago about having a "Completed" check box for a new cache type, the Challenge. You may still log a find on the container, but you may not get to "accomplish" the challenge set out until you prove your eligibility to the CO.

 

I think the additional, special icon you can earn for a challenge that a cache owner can design. That way it keeps it user-based, and website rewarded. Not unlike climbing the find ladder, adding the additional bragging rights of a challenge accomplishment to one's profile is likely a very good carrot on a very short stick.

 

Heck, I'd find more "challenge caches" if there wasn't this looming feeling about CO regulation and log deletion standing over a legitimate find of a container and logbook listed on geocaching.com.

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Yep, this is the route that removes the physical cache-finding component of Challenge Caches. It's a very different concept that removes a loved component of it (because it's still within the realm of finding physical geocaches), and ultimately, imo, would effectively kill the joy of 'challenge caching'. It just makes it into a statistical badge, instead of an accomplishment consisting of physically finding, and statistically accomplishing.

 

But look how the "7 Souvenirs of August" are making multis, hybrids, etc. popular! Some caches that haven't been found more than a couple of times are now all the range! Why? Cuz they can get a souvenir.

 

I think if people can get a badge for all the world to see, the appeal of challenges may actually increase. Now you just get a +1 to the find count.

I don't deny that at all, not in the slightest. It's great, I'm for it. But they're not Challenge Caches :P

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Heck, I'd find more "challenge caches" if there wasn't this looming feeling about CO regulation and log deletion standing over a legitimate find of a container and logbook listed on geocaching.com

 

No more looming feelings if the challenge component is separate from the traditional caching component.

 

Like with Challenge Stars

 

But they're not Challenge Caches

 

Would a Traditional cache with a separate metric for the challenge component be a Challenge Cache?

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Would a Traditional cache with a separate metric for the challenge component be a Challenge Cache?

 

I do not think that it would be an adequate replacement since a significant proportion of the logs will come from people who

do not satify the challenge requirements. This dilutes the find logs and one cannot any longer conveniently browse through the log

book of a challenge cache to see who really met the challenge.

 

The idea of a cache that is hidden only to challenge people to go for example for 15 caches over 2000 altitude is exactly this and not

to offer a cache that can be logged as found by everyone who goes and finds the cache. For the typical hider of such a challenge cache there would

not remain any motivation to hide such a cache.

 

 

Cezanne

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But they're not Challenge Caches

 

Would a Traditional cache with a separate metric for the challenge component be a Challenge Cache?

Right now, there are no "Challenge Caches", just "challenge caches" allowed under the Mystery/Puzzle cache type via an ALR loophole.

 

But yes, I would imagine that many current "challenge caches" are just that: Traditional Caches with an ALR of a "challenge" to complete before you may log the find you have made on a physical container and logbook.

 

Listed as a Traditional, those caches could have a "Found it" smiley like usual. Then, once the box is checked for completing the challenge, it could "upgrade" the smiley face to another icon both on your map, and within your profile. Adding another stat of "Completed Geocaching Challenges" via the checked box and CO-verified credentials, one's find count would increase by 1 for each challenge created on top of that Traditional cache with "unlockable content" of a built-in geocaching challenge.

 

It's like Mario's magic mushroom: Find the Traditional first, and unlock the magic to then log a "completed" for the challenge.

 

Woah..my own mind blown. Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.

 

ALRs were done away with for many reasons, including removing any barrier for finding a cache that is otherwise able to be found, log signed, and then logged online. We now have this "special" ALR that goes against the consistent message Groundspeak tries to proclaim.

 

So, why not flip the script on how to log these challenges? The "Found it" log should be available on any physical cache if you find the container and sign the logbook. But then, on a "special, new, improved challenge geocache", that cache can become a new "award" or incentive to complete the challenge as to unlock another icon, another "smiley" to your find count (or a stat apart from finds, the "Challenges Completed" stat), and give more incentive to find the cache first, then unlock the content to view the challenge at hand...then pick up the gauntlet and slap that challenge in the face!

 

So the idea is that a "Found it" log on any developed challenge would unlock the ability to view and complete the "special mission" set out by the cache owner. It's like becoming 007 or something. Pretty cool stuff, I think...

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Heck, I'd find more "challenge caches" if there wasn't this looming feeling about CO regulation and log deletion standing over a legitimate find of a container and logbook listed on geocaching.com.

How many times has a challenge cache owner deleted one of your legitimate "Found Its?" How many geocaching acquaintances of yours have had these kinds of experiences? How many times have you read about this happening on the forums? Personally, my answers are zero, zero, and zero.

 

The challenge cache guidelines make it rather difficult to arbitrarily delete legitimate "Found Its":

 

Importantly, geocache owners must consider how they will substantiate claims that the geocache requirements have been met. The challenge criteria on the geocache page must reflect this consideration, and must be verifiable through information on the Geocaching.com website.

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I personally think challenge caches would be better handled along the lines of Souvenirs. If you find a cache on every day of the year, earn a souvenir. There could be various souvenirs for caching streaks of various lengths. Souvenirs for finding caches in every county of a state, for the Delorme challenges, etc.

I think turning challenges into souvenirs would be a nightmare.

 

First, it would overwhelm their programmers, who I'd like to see working on many other tasks that are much more important.

 

Second, it would eliminate many inspirational challenges. I guessing the programmers might try to produce a couple dozen simple challenges, which means hundreds (or thousands?) of other creative challenges would disappear.

 

Third, automated challenges would be a big welcome mat for even more people to abuse the souvenir system. The current system can't even automatically remove the Kansas souvenir that I acquired when I accidentally entered an incorrect GC Code. Now imagine these programmers trying to write checks into the system to verify whether deleting a find log should require that a "Found All Counties" or "Found All Map Pages" challenge souvenir also should be deleted.

 

Finally, automating challenges would place an additional burden on a server system that already seems to get overwhelmed quite often.

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That, also...

 

Heck, I'd find more "challenge caches" if there wasn't this looming feeling about CO regulation and log deletion standing over a legitimate find of a container and logbook listed on geocaching.com.

How many times has a challenge cache owner deleted one of your legitimate "Found Its?" How many geocaching acquaintances of yours have had these kinds of experiences? How many times have you read about this happening on the forums? Personally, my answers are zero, zero, and zero.

 

The challenge cache guidelines make it rather difficult to arbitrarily delete legitimate "Found Its":

 

Importantly, geocache owners must consider how they will substantiate claims that the geocache requirements have been met. The challenge criteria on the geocache page must reflect this consideration, and must be verifiable through information on the Geocaching.com website.

 

Right, and if the challenge qualification is not automated, then it requires CO intervention to, once the cache is logged found and/or qualified, actually verify the finders' stats and manually award the completion. That just opens a whole enormous juicy can of drama worms, with the guarantee that there will be disagreements, fights, and grudge matches between COs and people who want and believe they've earned challenge rewards.

Right now, that drama is reserved to the existing dispute system of unfairly deleted Find logs. I doubt they want to increase the scope of dealing with such disagreements :P

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Heck, I'd find more "challenge caches" if there wasn't this looming feeling about CO regulation and log deletion standing over a legitimate find of a container and logbook listed on geocaching.com.

How many times has a challenge cache owner deleted one of your legitimate "Found Its?" How many geocaching acquaintances of yours have had these kinds of experiences? How many times have you read about this happening on the forums? Personally, my answers are zero, zero, and zero.

 

The challenge cache guidelines make it rather difficult to arbitrarily delete legitimate "Found Its":

 

Importantly, geocache owners must consider how they will substantiate claims that the geocache requirements have been met. The challenge criteria on the geocache page must reflect this consideration, and must be verifiable through information on the Geocaching.com website.

I'm more talking about ALRs and the doublespeak therein. It is all rooted in the "Find it, sign it, log it" idea behind physical geocaches, and the fundamental principles TPTB claim exist in one case, but not in another.

 

If I find a cache and sign its log, I've found that cache. If there is a challenge, that's fine. Let that be apart from the game in its most simple sense. See examples above.

 

ALRs in general are a deterrent. Think of Earthcaches, and how many of them are avoided unless 1. the CO doesn't really check for correct answers, or 2. the questions are quite easy to answer. When there is a true Earthcache that checks for understanding in a deeper way (by design of the Earthcache guidelines), it generally gets bypassed.

Edited by NeverSummer

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That, also...

 

Heck, I'd find more "challenge caches" if there wasn't this looming feeling about CO regulation and log deletion standing over a legitimate find of a container and logbook listed on geocaching.com.

How many times has a challenge cache owner deleted one of your legitimate "Found Its?" How many geocaching acquaintances of yours have had these kinds of experiences? How many times have you read about this happening on the forums? Personally, my answers are zero, zero, and zero.

 

The challenge cache guidelines make it rather difficult to arbitrarily delete legitimate "Found Its":

 

Importantly, geocache owners must consider how they will substantiate claims that the geocache requirements have been met. The challenge criteria on the geocache page must reflect this consideration, and must be verifiable through information on the Geocaching.com website.

 

Right, and if the challenge qualification is not automated, then it requires CO intervention to, once the cache is logged found and/or qualified, actually verify the finders' stats and manually award the completion. That just opens a whole enormous juicy can of drama worms, with the guarantee that there will be disagreements, fights, and grudge matches between COs and people who want and believe they've earned challenge rewards.

Right now, that drama is reserved to the existing dispute system of unfairly deleted Find logs. I doubt they want to increase the scope of dealing with such disagreements :P

Like the all-too-commonly discussed problem when a cache's D/T combo changes for legitimate reasons, thus "upsetting" someone's carefully designed challenge or list of completed qualifying caches.

 

Suddenly the side-game of assigning challenges trumps the need for accurate cache descriptions and ratings. ...For example. :anicute:

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Right, and if the challenge qualification is not automated, then it requires CO intervention to, once the cache is logged found and/or qualified, actually verify the finders' stats and manually award the completion. That just opens a whole enormous juicy can of drama worms, with the guarantee that there will be disagreements, fights, and grudge matches between COs and people who want and believe they've earned challenge rewards.

Right now, that drama is reserved to the existing dispute system of unfairly deleted Find logs. I doubt they want to increase the scope of dealing with such disagreements

 

The Challenge Stars system would help alleviate this issue.

 

The award of Stars would be automatic upon posting the Challenge Completed log type.

 

Only if the CO sees a problem with the requirements within that log would they have to intervene, like ineligible Found It logs using the current system.

 

By separating the two events, you compartmentalize the issues that deal with qualifications and decrease the CO's scope of work.

 

 

I do not think that it would be an adequate replacement since a significant proportion of the logs will come from people who

do not satify the challenge requirements. This dilutes the find logs and one cannot any longer conveniently browse through the log

book of a challenge cache to see who really met the challenge.

 

There is a certain amount of dilution occurring already when non-qualifiers sign and then log as a Note instead of a Found It. Quantification would occur as any other cache, on the listing header like this:

 

0605cfc3-e115-40ce-a378-e507bc3beb7e.png

 

 

The idea of a cache that is hidden only to challenge people to go for example for 15 caches over 2000 altitude is exactly this and not

to offer a cache that can be logged as found by everyone who goes and finds the cache. For the typical hider of such a challenge cache there would

not remain any motivation to hide such a cache.

 

Certainly you aren't suggesting that someone should be dis-allowed from posting a note to the 15 caches over 2000 altitude challenge, if they signed its log book?

 

Why not allow anyone who goes and finds the cache to log it? That's the point of caching in the first place.

 

Those who are motivated to fulfill the requirements can post a Challenge Completed log and get their Challenge Stars.

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The Challenge Stars system would help alleviate this issue.

 

Yeah, by sucking so badly nobody would care even a little bit about challenge caches. Not a good way to solve the problem.

 

My solution is to make any new challenge caches true mystery caches, in which the posted coordinates are not correct and there is some trivial puzzle to solve to get the correct ones. Thus, nobody who finds the cache could possibly not have read the cache page, and the whole issue is moot.

 

And, for your information, no, the entire point of geocaching is not to give people as many meaningless finds as you can possibly cram down their throats.

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The Challenge Stars system would help alleviate this issue.

 

Yeah, by sucking so badly nobody would care even a little bit about challenge caches. Not a good way to solve the problem.

 

My solution is to make any new challenge caches true mystery caches, in which the posted coordinates are not correct and there is some trivial puzzle to solve to get the correct ones. Thus, nobody who finds the cache could possibly not have read the cache page, and the whole issue is moot.

 

And, for your information, no, the entire point of geocaching is not to give people as many meaningless finds as you can possibly cram down their throats.

I read the cache pages for the challenges that I've found and logged with a note. I'm not sure what having to read the page and knowing it's challenge has to do with whether or not someone wants to go find the cache.

 

I suspect that if there was some simple puzzle, I would solve the puzzle and look for the cache if it was in a location I was passing anyway.

 

I'm not complaining that I found a challenge and was unaware there was an ALR. I know that was an issue for some people with ALRs before they had to be listed as mystery caches. I never complained that I didn't know in advance there was and additional requirement. I would do the ALR if it wasn't too burdensome or log a note for the cache otherwise.

 

I objected when ALRs were finally banned at first but came to the conclusion that this was the best response to the view the the online log was the goal and that you could get people to do stupid things just to log a find online. To me, finding the cache has always been the goal, and the online log was just something you do to share your experiences.

 

The supporters of challenges make a point that challenges have to be geocaching related, and that with the additional guideline for challenges they can't really ask you to do stupid things. I may personally find some challenges stupid, but I can understand that for others these may be worthwhile achievements to attempt. My objection is that this is the last bastion of using the smiley to make people do something - stupid or not. I understand that non-physical cache make you do something, but generally it's pretty trivial. I know people who find EarthCaches too much like taking a a high school science quiz. I'm sure that fizzymagic aced all his high school science exams, but for some people this is something they rather not be forced to do. The either skip EarthCaches or log them with notes.

 

I do find all the effort to come up with some alternate approach for challenges a bit silly. Sure there may be ways to remove the use of the online log as a reward, but fizzy may be right and there are too many cachers who believe that you score points in this game by posting finds for whom some other kind of recognition will not serve the same incentive.

 

I kinda feel sorry for the both the challenge owners and those who do the challenge to get the smiley in that they are missing out in the real fun of finding caches or of setting goals just for the sake of achieving the goal. And frankly, despite what fizzy thinks, I have no desire to keep them from having their misguided fun. I'll keep posting notes when I find caches where Groundspeak is allowing ALRs.

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There is a certain amount of dilution occurring already when non-qualifiers sign and then log as a Note instead of a Found It.

 

First, the number of cachers who go for a challenge cache without having fulfilled the requirements is very small, at least in my country. In some cases quite some time has to be invested to obtain the coordinates and/or to walk to the cache. Those who write lame cut and paste logs like "Today I used my leisure time to go caching. This was one of the caches I found. Thanks to all hiders" and who leave throwdowns when there is no cache to find or make photo logs stay away from caches where they know that they cannot score a find.

 

Certainly you aren't suggesting that someone should be dis-allowed from posting a note to the 15 caches over 2000 altitude challenge, if they signed its log book?

 

Certainly not. I have visited a challenge cache for which I do not qualify even three times (the cache involved a puzzle which took me more than 30 minutes). I explained in my first log why I probably will never be able to meet the qualification and also mentioned that the idea behind the cache is nice. If the situation changed, I would revisit the cache to log a find.

Apart from me I think 1-2 other cachers visited the cache and logged a note - all commented on the challenge requirement and wrote a decent log.

In your model most of those who just log a find, would probably not even read the requirements to the end and simply ignore them and write one of their typical logs which is even worse when the challenge hide is not as a special location and is a relatively lame cache without the experience provided by qualifying.

 

Why not allow anyone who goes and finds the cache to log it? That's the point of caching in the first place.

 

Not necessarily. None of the caches I have hidden (no challenge cache by the way) has been hidden for this goal in the first place. I own only caches with multiple stages and some have an educational focus. I use to get angry if someone skips the walk and/or the educational part and gets the final coordinates by someone else.

What can be found at the end at my caches is not all what my caches are about and will lead just to a +1 at the finder's side and frustration at my side.

 

In case of a my example the idea would be to get people to visit s certain number of mountain caches and not to find the contain another container (mine). I see challenge caches as a way to come up with such tasks and not as a further container to be found.

 

I could live without challenge caches, but if they are there, they need to be as they are now or similar. Changes like the proposed ones will deter those who currently love challenge caches.

 

It also seems to me that you have not considered at all the point of view of the hiders of challenge caches. Your star system and many other suggestions that have been brought forward over the years typically address the point of view of the finder. I think that the system as it is now is the key motivation for the cache hider to hide a challenge cache and to maintain it further instead of archiving it.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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The Challenge Stars system would help alleviate this issue.

 

Yeah, by sucking so badly nobody would care even a little bit about challenge caches. Not a good way to solve the problem.

 

My solution is to make any new challenge caches true mystery caches, in which the posted coordinates are not correct and there is some trivial puzzle to solve to get the correct ones. Thus, nobody who finds the cache could possibly not have read the cache page, and the whole issue is moot.

 

And, for your information, no, the entire point of geocaching is not to give people as many meaningless finds as you can possibly cram down their throats.

 

By making Challenge caches true mysteries/puzzles, (most of what I can't solve), you exclude me from doing the Challenge, or at least logging that particular cache. But, that is okay with me. I have learned long ago that I don't have to log every cache that has been placed. If I choose to find your Challenge cache that is placed at the posted coordinates without completing the actual challenge, I'll post a note and thank you for the experience, however, I would hate to complete a Challenge and then not be able to log my accomplishment because the puzzle was too hard for me to solve.

 

I have no hopes of ever completing a Fizzy Challenge, yet If I am ever up in the area, I would love to hike to the original cache, find it and log a note thanking the owner for the experience. It's the entire idea that I have to be rewarded by another point for everything that I do in this game that puts me off, especially since most caches have a free point sitting .1mi away.

 

As a side note, I have complained for years about mystery caches, mostly because of a local cacher that has placed several difficult puzzles. My concern has always been that I can't solve them, don't know where they are and am reluctant to hide caches in the same areas. The reaction to my complaints has always been, "If you don't like puzzles, don't seek them", or, "we all play the game our own way, blah, blah, blah".

 

I am simply befuddled as to why people feel that even though the guidelines say that Challenge Caches have special considerations, that are different from the normal guidelines for other physically caches, they feel that they have a right to log them even though they haven't met those considerations.

 

Of course, the simplest solution is to create a separate cache type and icon. It should have been done long ago.

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Just to note, Toz and I have have spent many miles on the trail, as well as hours at our local meet and greets. We have great debates as we we don't always have the same opinions of what we read on these forums.

 

I posted before reading Tos's last post, and was surprised that we basically made the same point. He did a better job, in my opinion.

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Second, it would eliminate many inspirational challenges. I guessing the programmers might try to produce a couple dozen simple challenges, which means hundreds (or thousands?) of other creative challenges would disappear.

 

 

But it will also get get rid of hundreds (thousands?) of silly and pointless challenges. Such as one recently published nearby which requires you to have found at least one cache...and the challenge counts as the one if need be. Really?

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Second, it would eliminate many inspirational challenges. I guessing the programmers might try to produce a couple dozen simple challenges, which means hundreds (or thousands?) of other creative challenges would disappear.

But it will also get get rid of hundreds (thousands?) of silly and pointless challenges. Such as one recently published nearby which requires you to have found at least one cache...and the challenge counts as the one if need be. Really?

As a Premium Member, you already have a mechanism that lets you get rid of challenges you consider silly or pointless. It's called the Ignore List.

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See, it's comments like "feel sorry for", and "misguided fun" that keep that debates raging.dry.gif

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See, it's comments like "feel sorry for", and "misguided fun" that keep that debates raging.dry.gif

Would you prefer if I had said "I feel jealous of people for whom the ability to log a find on challenge cache is the incentive they need to take up a challenge"?

 

The problem is I'm not jealous of those people. It seems misguided to me that you need any incentive to attempt a challenge beyond the challenge itself. True, I suspect that few people would take the ice bucket challenge if they didn't have the "incentive" of helping the ALS Association raise money. But I'm convince that people would still try to complete their D/T grid without the incentive of a challenge cache to log. On top of this, if you do need an incentive, getting a smiley point seems pitiful compared to helping a charity raise money. So I do feel sorry for people who view a smiley that way.

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As a Premium Member, you already have a mechanism that lets you get rid of challenges you consider silly or pointless. It's called the Ignore List.
Yep. The only caches on my Ignore List are silly/pointless challenge caches that I'll never complete. It's a good way to get them off my "nearest mystery/puzzle caches" lists.

 

Of course, silly/pointless challenge caches that I've already completed go on one of my "solved unfound puzzles" lists. ;)

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Most of the participants are trying to devise ways to ruin geocaching challenges.
Yeah, by sucking so badly nobody would care even a little bit about challenge caches. Not a good way to solve the problem.

 

It's hard to address non-specific objections like these. Is there any point in trying, or is this a resist-all-change-no-matter-what stance? If you have specific criticism of the system I have proposed, better to post it in its own forum topic. That lets us focus on its specifics, and makes it so I don't have to contrive some plausibly-deniable bump.

 

 

I'll keep posting notes when I find caches where Groundspeak is allowing ALRs

 

Under the Stars system, you wouldn't have to. The ALR is completely separated from the Traditional find log, and moved to its own log type. The Traditional finder gets their smiley and challenge participator can subsequently and separately additionally log requirements for completion of the challenge.

 

 

Of course, the simplest solution is to create a separate cache type and icon.

 

That's one way to go but then you might still have people wondering why they have to log a note on a found cache container whose log they signed.

 

The hybrid Stars solution eliminates these issues.

 

It is win-win. Win.

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No it's not a win win. It is a completely unnecessary additional level of complexity and a way to add more numbers for people to obsess about. If you don't want to find caches you can't log don't look for them. That's a simple solution and requires no changes to the website and has no impact on other users. That is a win win.

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No it's not a win win. It is a completely unnecessary additional level of complexity and a way to add more numbers for people to obsess about. If you don't want to find caches you can't log don't look for them. That's a simple solution and requires no changes to the website and has no impact on other users. That is a win win.

I could give a rip if I get another smiley to my account for finding another cache. To me, it's all about finding a cache at a site, signing its logbook, and logging it online via a "Found it" log (not a note...that's not saying I found it).

 

If a cache is "lame", I write less. But I still like to find them to see what's out there.

 

So, the big deal is still that Groundspeak has on position about ALRs and "access" to caches, and then creates an asterisk within an otherwise straight forward cache type that allows for ALRs. Doublespeak. Inconsistency. Muddling of position. Muddling of mission.

 

At minimum, another cache type should be created. At maximum, challenges should be secondary to the finding of the container via an unlockable "challenge completed" box. Again, it is backwards to have to log a find only after completing a task. The find should come first for physical caches, and the activity second. This is why Earthcaches are apart from all other physical caches--you have to do the "high school science quiz" before logging a "find" (should be renamed "Completion").

 

So, fizzy, before you get too worked up about what I'm saying here, know that I don't think anything less of "challenge caches" on the whole. Where I think we have a problem is with the consistency of how Groundspeak presents them. ALRs should either be all allowed, or not at all. And if they are going to be attached to a physical cache, they should not exist according to their own arguments.

 

To say that the reward for completing a "challenge cache" is "being allowed" to log a find on a physical cache, I think it's poppycock. The "reward" is in being able to say you've completed a seemingly difficult geocaching-related challenge. That reward doesn't have to be linked to a "find" to be rewarding. It can be another metric of recognition as we've discussed...and certainly would help with bragging rights for having completed a geocaching-related challenge.

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No it's not a win win. It is a completely unnecessary additional level of complexity and a way to add more numbers for people to obsess about. If you don't want to find caches you can't log don't look for them. That's a simple solution and requires no changes to the website and has no impact on other users. That is a win win.

 

No, that's win-lose. It has been alleged that people who want to look for and log as Traditional finds the containers that are currently hidden should be able to do so. With the system now, they can only post notes or opt out, which is a lose.

 

The addition of the Stars system would not alter the status quo and would have no impact on other users. Traditional (and other types of) caches would still be available (more so, even) with optional logging of the Challenge Completed. You would have to opt-in to this additionally complex system to get more numbers over which you could obsess.

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No it's not a win win. It is a completely unnecessary additional level of complexity and a way to add more numbers for people to obsess about. If you don't want to find caches you can't log don't look for them. That's a simple solution and requires no changes to the website and has no impact on other users. That is a win win.

 

No, that's win-lose. It has been alleged that people who want to look for and log as Traditional finds the containers that are currently hidden should be able to do so. With the system now, they can only post notes or opt out, which is a lose.

 

The addition of the Stars system would not alter the status quo and would have no impact on other users. Traditional (and other types of) caches would still be available (more so, even) with optional logging of the Challenge Completed. You would have to opt-in to this additionally complex system to get more numbers over which you could obsess.

No need to make a hard sell. Point taken! :laughing::anicute:

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Most of the participants are trying to devise ways to ruin geocaching challenges.
Yeah, by sucking so badly nobody would care even a little bit about challenge caches. Not a good way to solve the problem.

 

It's hard to address non-specific objections like these. Is there any point in trying, or is this a resist-all-change-no-matter-what stance? If you have specific criticism of the system I have proposed, better to post it in its own forum topic. That lets us focus on its specifics, and makes it so I don't have to contrive some plausibly-deniable bump.

 

I don't know if I agree with the so-called non-specific objections, but I wouldn't call them non-specific. Clearly the way challenge caches currently work has some advantages. First an foremost they work by treating challenge caches just like other caches from the point of view of the database and website generated statistics. Previous attempts to create special version of listings other than geocaches have failed. In particular was the attemp at Geocaching Challenges. Even the lab cache concept is struggling becuase of the way lab caches are treated differently.

 

The history of geocaching has shown that presenting concepts (puzzles, events, virtual caches, EarthCaches, webcams) in the familar format of the the geocache listing gets far more traction than to introduce new interfaces taht users need to deal with. That said a new log type for "Challenge Completed" is not as much of a change so it may be that people would accept it more readily.

 

But the current system also relies on the magic that the WIGAS log has over a portion of the geocaching community. There seems little questions that you can dangle that reward as an incentive to these people, and someone who might not attempt a challenge otherwise will go out of their way to get a smiley. It isn't clear that separate challenge points or challenge stars would every have that same effect, particularly if you can get your WIGAS point by simply finding the cache.

 

I'll keep posting notes when I find caches where Groundspeak is allowing ALRs

 

Under the Stars system, you wouldn't have to. The ALR is completely separated from the Traditional find log, and moved to its own log type. The Traditional finder gets their smiley and challenge participator can subsequently and separately additionally log requirements for completion of the challenge.

My point was that I don't need stars if the challenge sounds like it's something I would want to attempt, nor do I need points for finding a cache that is some place I might be going to anyway. Sure the proposal lets you get (challenge) stars for the challenge and find points for finding caches; but for myself this seems like a lot of effort to deal with a few people whom don't understand that the smiles is for WIGAS points and that some caches have additional requirments beyond finding in order to score a WIGAS point.

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We need a Challenge star system so we can take back the morphed WIGAS Find and return it to its original function - an indication of caches we have found. Then those found caches can be filtered out when trying to find caches we haven't found. The smiley should not be a rewardable commodity or score.

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<_<:laughing::unsure: Congrats! You're locked in as 42118 out of the 42119 geocachers around the world to earn the Achiever souvenir to date. Considering that there are millions of geocachers worldwide, that’s pretty awesome! :laughing:

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No need to make a hard sell. Point taken!

 

I know I don't have to close you on this -- it was essentially your idea to begin with. I am not getting much traction in the actual feature request thread so I am proselytizing here.

 

 

I don't know if I agree with the so-called non-specific objections, but I wouldn't call them non-specific.

 

Help me out here -- to what, specifically, are they objecting? I want to address and overcome those objections, but if it simply resistance to change there's nothing I can do about that.

 

 

Clearly the way challenge caches currently work has some advantages. First an foremost they work by treating challenge caches just like other caches from the point of view of the database and website generated statistics. Previous attempts to create special version of listings other than geocaches have failed. In particular was the attemp at Geocaching Challenges. Even the lab cache concept is struggling becuase of the way lab caches are treated differently

 

Both of your fail examples were, as you state, other than geocaches. These were new unrequested features that were sprung upon the community with no consultation. There was little or no cohesion with the existing database and website generated statistics ("Lab Caches") and no proper ownership or review of the listings ("Challenges").

 

Going forward, the Stars system would not be a new feature simply wedged into the existing system -- it would enhance it (like Favorites did). From a retroactive perspective, their implementation could integrate all existing challenge-type Mystery caches. One by one or in bulk, these caches with containers at their posted coordinates could be changed to a Traditional with the addition of the Challenge Stars feature. All Found It logs could be copied to Challenge Completed log types, with the existing D level of the cache translated into the same number of Challenge Stars. Subsequent to this, the CO could alter the D rating independently to accurately reflect the difficulty of the find, in the traditional sense, freeing it up from reflecting the difficulty of the Challenge.

 

 

But the current system also relies on the magic that the WIGAS log has over a portion of the geocaching community. There seems little questions that you can dangle that reward as an incentive to these people, and someone who might not attempt a challenge otherwise will go out of their way to get a smiley. It isn't clear that separate challenge points or challenge stars would every have that same effect, particularly if you can get your WIGAS point by simply finding the cache.

 

I question greatly your assessment of "those people" and their motivation to complete challenges as a function of their desire for so-called Magic Smiley. However, if it is accurate then I think it would be fair to say that these people would be even more motivated by a system where there are rewards proportional to the challenge itself. Why should an extremely challenging Ironman be worth the same single WIGAS as the example previously stated of the simplistic challenge of "find one cache, possibly including this one"? By separating the two events, you normalize the meaning of the Traditional WIGAS, and enhance the meaning of the completion of more or less difficult challenges. Win win.

 

 

My point was that I don't need stars if the challenge sounds like it's something I would want to attempt, nor do I need points for finding a cache that is some place I might be going to anyway. Sure the proposal lets you get (challenge) stars for the challenge and find points for finding caches; but for myself this seems like a lot of effort to deal with a few people whom don't understand that the smiles is for WIGAS points and that some caches have additional requirments beyond finding in order to score a WIGAS point.

 

We need a Challenge star system so we can take back the morphed WIGAS Find and return it to its original function - an indication of caches we have found. Then those found caches can be filtered out when trying to find caches we haven't found. The smiley should not be a rewardable commodity or score.

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No need to make a hard sell. Point taken!

 

I know I don't have to close you on this -- it was essentially your idea to begin with. I am not getting much traction in the actual feature request thread so I am proselytizing here.

I kid, I kid. You're a good sport. :smile:

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To say that the reward for completing a "challenge cache" is "being allowed" to log a find on a physical cache, I think it's poppycock. The "reward" is in being able to say you've completed a seemingly difficult geocaching-related challenge. That reward doesn't have to be linked to a "find" to be rewarding. It can be another metric of recognition as we've discussed...and certainly would help with bragging rights for having completed a geocaching-related challenge.

That is, unless there is some more "bragging rights" to being able to log a find on a cache that only you and others have completed the "challenge" may log. The good, old fashioned "I can do this, I did do this, and you lot haven't and can't".

 

Gone are the days where people had to be caching for years before hitting 1000 finds. Gone are the days where it might take years to fill a grid of D/T or 366 days a year. Cachers with time on their hands, and gas in their tanks can do 1000 in a week, and a grid in a month.

 

So, I can see where it was a really, really big deal to be able to log those types of caches back in 2005 or so, but those days are gone. It has lost some lustre, and now we have other "challenges--some creative and fun, others contrived and insignificant. So this is where I see an opportunity to move the game back to its roots, and have physical caches be physical caches in the same: Find it, sign it, log it online. If you complete a "challenge" set out in the description in addition to having found the cache, you can log that challenge as "Completed". Boom--reward for your efforts, and a stat to record that challenge completion.

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I question greatly your assessment of "those people" and their motivation to complete challenges as a function of their desire for so-called Magic Smiley. However, if it is accurate then I think it would be fair to say that these people would be even more motivated by a system where there are rewards proportional to the challenge itself.

 

I agree with what Toz wrote and do not not believe that challenge points or whatever would be an appropriate replacement for being able to log a find that not everyone can log.

As I said before, you also totally exclude the cache owners from your consideration.

Challenge caches are a way to restrict the traffic to a cache without adding a difficult puzzle or a long walk and it works fine. The quality of logs for harder challenge caches also tends to be much better on average than for the cache resulting when taking away the challenge requirement. Your challenge point systems turns challenge caches into normal caches which takes away one of the major features.

 

I'm not a fan of challenge caches and I have logged a find only for this one

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4Y7WG_challenge-steiermark-13-bezirke?guid=2232c089-6947-4a74-ba64-47372d099a4b

I certainly would not have visited this cache if one could log a find without meeting the requirements. The cache itself (boring location) and the T5 situation do not attract me at all. What I like however is that everyone lists their selected 13 caches and that results in logs I like to read. I do not need to skip tons of irrelevant logs.

Without the challenge requirement the cache mentioned above would attract a totally different audience.

Your challenge point system would not have any effect on that at all.

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I'm chimed in re 'challenge stars' over in the other thread. Which I now know exists. :)

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We need a Challenge star system so we can take back the morphed WIGAS Find and return it to its original function - an indication of caches we have found. Then those found caches can be filtered out when trying to find caches we haven't found.

You'd have to do much more than implement a challenge star system to make the smiley an indication of caches that have been found.

 

Currently, smileys also indicate:

 

(1) appropriate webcam photos have been taken and uploaded

 

(2) appropriate EarthCache answers have been sent

 

(3) appropriate virtual cache answers/photos have been sent/uploaded

 

(4) events have been attended

 

(5) locationless coordinates/photos have been posted/uploaded

 

(6) lab cache codes have been entered

 

(7) GPS Adventure Exhibit has been visited

 

(8) challenge caches have been completed

 

Personally, I'm glad smileys have evolved to serve more than just their original function. I like the diverse range of experiences geocaching provides today.

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Currently, smileys also indicate: [snip]
True. But for caches with a physical container, a smiley means you've found the cache.

 

Except for challenge caches, of course.

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The idea is that a smiley means one thing. The requirement might be different for different types of caches, but the one exception is the Mystery cache, wherein a WIGAS could mean either found the physical cache, or found the physical cache AND completed the challenge.

 

The goal of the challenge stars is to remove that one exception so that the smiley, across the board, means one thing depending on the cache type.

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I kinda feel sorry for the both the challenge owners and those who do the challenge to get the smiley in that they are missing out in the real fun of finding caches or of setting goals just for the sake of achieving the goal. And frankly, despite what fizzy thinks, I have no desire to keep them from having their misguided fun. I'll keep posting notes when I find caches where Groundspeak is allowing ALRs.

And I feel sorry for you since you think the only way to have fun caching is the way you do it.

 

"Missing the real fun of finding caches" - so finding a whole bunch of caches for a challenge isn't fun, but finding the same caches (without the challenge) is fun?!? How does that make sense?

 

"Setting goals just for sake of achieving the goal" - how many of the challenge caches you completed had goals you had already thought of/set for yourself? What non-challenge, geocache goals have you set for yourself? I've used several challenge caches to set goals that I hadn't thought of myself, but realize that it would be fun to do (others don't appeal to me, so I haven't set those goals). Early on I was trying to get as many first year caches as I could - after seeing the Delome Challenge come out, I came up with the Washington History Challenge to share that goal with other cachers (yeah, it took me a few years to qualify for my own challenge).

 

You have a long history on these forums of making derogatory labels for those who do things differently than you do: "Misguided fun" is your latest. It does nothing to forward your arguments - it often pushes me to the other side even when I agree with some of your points - in fact, it makes you sound less convincing since you have to ridicule the other side (not a good way to win others to your point of view).

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The idea is that a smiley means one thing. The requirement might be different for different types of caches, but the one exception is the Mystery cache, wherein a WIGAS could mean either found the physical cache, or found the physical cache AND completed the challenge.

 

The goal of the challenge stars is to remove that one exception so that the smiley, across the board, means one thing depending on the cache type.

Of course if the main concept of this thread were implemented, Challenge caches could have their own log type (WIGAS), just like Events (Attended) and Webcams (Photo Taken).

 

I kinda feel sorry for the both the challenge owners and those who do the challenge to get the smiley in that they are missing out in the real fun of finding caches or of setting goals just for the sake of achieving the goal. And frankly, despite what fizzy thinks, I have no desire to keep them from having their misguided fun. I'll keep posting notes when I find caches where Groundspeak is allowing ALRs.

And I feel sorry for you since you think the only way to have fun caching is the way you do it.

 

"Missing the real fun of finding caches" - so finding a whole bunch of caches for a challenge isn't fun, but finding the same caches (without the challenge) is fun?!? How does that make sense?

 

"Setting goals just for sake of achieving the goal" - how many of the challenge caches you completed had goals you had already thought of/set for yourself? What non-challenge, geocache goals have you set for yourself? I've used several challenge caches to set goals that I hadn't thought of myself, but realize that it would be fun to do (others don't appeal to me, so I haven't set those goals). Early on I was trying to get as many first year caches as I could - after seeing the Delome Challenge come out, I came up with the Washington History Challenge to share that goal with other cachers (yeah, it took me a few years to qualify for my own challenge).

 

You have a long history on these forums of making derogatory labels for those who do things differently than you do: "Misguided fun" is your latest. It does nothing to forward your arguments - it often pushes me to the other side even when I agree with some of your points - in fact, it makes you sound less convincing since you have to ridicule the other side (not a good way to win others to your point of view).

:huh:

I don't deny that some people enjoy challenge caches. Challenge caches certainly make it easy to find challenges you might not have thought of yourself, or suggesting challenge for others to attempt. But you certainly don't need to have challenge caches that you can only log a find on by completing the challenge to have a way for geocachers to suggest challenges others can do.

 

It always surprised me what people can be offended by. My personal feeling is that I feel sorry for people who need a smiley as an incentive something they would enjoy doing anyway. If you want to be offended because I feel sorry for someone, then I feel doubly sorry for you. :signalviolin:

Edited by tozainamboku

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The idea is that a smiley means one thing. The requirement might be different for different types of caches, but the one exception is the Mystery cache, wherein a WIGAS could mean either found the physical cache, or found the physical cache AND completed the challenge.

 

The goal of the challenge stars is to remove that one exception so that the smiley, across the board, means one thing depending on the cache type.

Of course if the main concept of this thread were implemented, Challenge caches could have their own log type (WIGAS), just like Events (Attended) and Webcams (Photo Taken).

Not really. If people just want to find the cache without the challenge, they still should be able to post the Find log.

I think the idea is that the find log for caches with a linked challenge would either be 'upgradeable' to a challenge complete, or it would have an additional challenge complete log type available. Could get complicated in deciding when to reward the stars though - technically they should only be rewarded once a Find log exists as well as the Completed flag/log, to still allow people to qualify or find in either order.

I think that would be the biggest challenge of this implementation.

 

But I don't think it would be one new log type for challenge caches (as per webcam photo, etc).

 

ETA: Alternatively, it could be just a Find log with a qualified flag. If you qualify before finding, you post a note, as we currently do. No loss there. Then to earn the stars, you do have to post the find log, then (or with) the qualified flag.

 

It always surprised me what people can be offended by. My personal feeling is that I feel sorry for people who need a smiley as an incentive something they would enjoy doing anyway. If you want to be offended because I feel sorry for someone, then I feel doubly sorry for you. :signalviolin:

 

Surely you can see how that's insulting... you come of pompous and prideful that somehow your way is better.

Instead of just saying "It's great that you enjoy playing how you do. I enjoy playing how I do." - VERY different than "I think your way is sad and misguided. But it's good you enjoy playing that way."

SURELY you can sense the difference.

Edited by thebruce0

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Challenge caches are a way to restrict the traffic to a cache without adding a difficult puzzle or a long walk and it works fine.

 

If implementation of the Stars system means that a feature can no longer be mis-used contrary to its intent, then all the more reason it should be put in place.

 

If they wanted the challenge caches used to restrict traffic, they would not allow notes for finds on them.

 

If you want to have elite caches, why not put a difficult puzzle or use a long walk?

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If they wanted the challenge caches used to restrict traffic, they would not allow notes for finds on them.

 

They can easily allow them as only very few cachers visit a cache when they know that they do not earn a found it log.

It exactly keeps away the numbers people and most of those who write lame logs.

Look at my provided example above. Normally such caches attract the typical T5-cachers and the typical logs would

be one line logs. On the contrary, the logs of the finders so far are interesting for the locals to read as it is mainly

about comparing the provided lists of multi caches and see if they contain some caches one has not been aware of before.

There are many other examples as well. Of course it depends on the type of the challenge.

I would not be interested into the logs of a 9 cache icons per day challenge.

 

Or look at this challenge

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4BNQQ_challenge-mit-20-uber-300

the idea of which is to cover with 20 hiking multi caches at least 300km.

The idea of this cache is not to provide a further find for everyone, but to motivate people to visit longer hiking multi caches

(and indirectly also to contribute to an increase in their number).

 

The goal of a forgotten cache challenge is also not to provide a further cache to attract the cachers's attention to caches that are

overlooked by most cachers.

 

 

If you want to have elite caches, why not put a difficult puzzle or use a long walk?

 

It's not about elite. Of course, there are these alternatives, but the target audiences are different ones and moreover, the

coordinates for difficult puzzles can be shared. Someone who does not quality for a challenge, cannot end up with a found it log.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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