Help with listing a puzzle cache

[+Derekn]

Hello

 

Pleeeeeease can someone help me with a puzzle cache listing.

 

12 months or more ago I placed 4 puzzle caches without any problems. It now appears that Geocache.com have now changed the listing requirements. They require an additional waypoint which is called "Reference Point".

 

I don't have a problem with providing this "Reference Point" and I don't have a problem with providing the Final waypoint. However, I am not sure what is required for the first waypoint when completing the cache details....... it says..........

 

Please enter the starting coordinates of your geocache

Where do you want geocachers to start seeking this cache? This location is available to everyone and will be associated with your cache in search results or on the map.

 

What should I put in there??

 

On my other puzzle caches for the listed waypoint (the one that could be seen on the cache page) I listed a point around 2 - 300 metres from where the actual caches were hidden.

 

Many thanks

 

Derek

[+Mineral2]

For a multi-cache, that's the location of the first waypoint to start the series. For a Puzzle, put in the coordinates where the puzzle will appear on the map, but not necessarily the actual coordinates of the container itself.

[+niraD]

If it were my cache, then I would ask my reviewer for more information (via email or via reviewer notes or via whatever method he asked me to use to contact him). The only puzzle caches I've seen with Reference Point waymarks have been cases where the coordinates of those Reference Point waymarks were used to solve the puzzle.

[+Derekn]

For a multi-cache, that's the location of the first waypoint to start the series. For a Puzzle, put in the coordinates where the puzzle will appear on the map, but not necessarily the actual coordinates of the container itself.

 

So just use a "fake" waypoint that is not too far from the actual cache location ?

 

Regards

 

Derek

[+Derekn]

If it were my cache, then I would ask my reviewer for more information (via email or via reviewer notes or via whatever method he asked me to use to contact him). The only puzzle caches I've seen with Reference Point waymarks have been cases where the coordinates of those Reference Point waymarks were used to solve the puzzle.

 

Apparently these Reference Points for ALL puzzle caches are a new thing since 4th March.

 

Derek

[+NanCycle]

Please enter the starting coordinates of your geocache

Where do you want geocachers to start seeking this cache? This location is available to everyone and will be associated with your cache in search results or on the map.

 

What should I put in there??

 

Do you have a suggested parking location? That's what I would use.

[+J Grouchy]

If it were my cache, then I would ask my reviewer for more information (via email or via reviewer notes or via whatever method he asked me to use to contact him). The only puzzle caches I've seen with Reference Point waymarks have been cases where the coordinates of those Reference Point waymarks were used to solve the puzzle.

 

Apparently these Reference Points for ALL puzzle caches are a new thing since 4th March.

 

Derek

 

Yeah...I've been tripped up on my last two caches because of the new rule.

 

My reviewer sends this:

We need to know the nature of the posted coordinate for this listing.

 

When submitting a geocache listing other than a traditional or event geocache, please create an 'Additional Waypoint' (which should be hidden) having the same coordinate as the listing's posted coordinates. http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=72

 

Name this new additional waypoint, 'posted coordinate'..

 

Multi, Letterbox Hybrid and Wherigo geocaches should identified as:

"Questions to Answer" (if the posted coordinates are virtual) or

"Stages of a Multi" (if the posted coordinates has a physical container that you have placed).

 

Unknown/mystery/puzzle type geocache should be identified as:

"Reference Point" (if the posted coordinates are virtual/bogus) or

"Final Location" (if the posted coordinates has a physical container you have placed).

 

Challenge geocaches should have an additional waypoint called 'Final Location' containing the posted coordinate.

 

Edited March 24, 2014 by J Grouchy

[+J Grouchy]

For a multi-cache, that's the location of the first waypoint to start the series. For a Puzzle, put in the coordinates where the puzzle will appear on the map, but not necessarily the actual coordinates of the container itself.

 

So just use a "fake" waypoint that is not too far from the actual cache location ?

 

Regards

 

Derek

 

Usually I try to pick coordinates either at an interesting spot on the map or use obviously 'fake' coordinates, like with the last three digits as '000' or something like that. It doesn't really matter what they are, just as long as they are within roughly two miles.

[+Derekn]

Many thanks for all your replies. I will have another go now :-)

 

The way I now understand the new rule is..... a puzzle cache must have 3 waypoints.

 

1. The listed location - which can be a "fake" location up to 2 miles away.

2. The "Additional" waypoint which can be the same as the actual.

3. The "Final" waypoint which must be the actual locaion.

 

Many thanks

 

Derek

[Keystone]

No, that's not correct. The redundant Additional Waypoint is AT the posted coordinates. It answers the question of whether the location is blocked off to other physical cache elements within 528 feet of the posted coordinates.

[+dprovan]

Yeah, they quietly added this new requirement forcing you to create a completely pointless and utterly redundant reference waypoint that exactly matches your posted coordinates. I have no idea why anyone thought this was useful in the case where the posted coordinates have nothing to do with finding the cache, and I'm not at all surprised it's causing confusion. I heard about it, and I'm still confused. It only makes sense if there's actually something there that needs to be considered for distance, but for some reason they insist it's there whether there's anything there or not. Hard to believe explaining this is making anyone's life easier.

 

By the way, someone suggested parking coordinates. My understanding is that a parking waypoint is not acceptable even if the posted coordinates are, in fact, a good place to park, which makes the whole thing even more puzzling.

[+Derekn]

Well I am even more confused now ;-) hahahahaha

 

I have now given up (for the time being) trying to publish a puzzle cache and have just changed them all to Traditional caches!

 

Derek

[+J Grouchy]

I modified your previous post to help clarify:

 

 

1. The posted coordinates - which can be a "fake" location up to 2 miles away.

2. The "Additional" waypoint which is the same as the posted coordinates and visible to all.

3. The "Final" waypoint which must be the actual locaion and should be hidden.

 

 

Really the only part you got wrong was the second one. I gather the point of it is to make it easier to determine whether the posted coordinates are the same as the final hiding spot coordinates. I don't know why they wouldn't be able to tell from all the other information we provide, but that's just what they want now.

 

It gets a little trickier in the case of a multicache where you may or may not have a physical object or tag with coordinates. If there is one, then that affects the saturation. If you only have someone go to a set of coordinates to gather information that already exists on-site, then that doesn't affect saturation and that point can be within the 528' of another physical cache.

[+niraD]

I have now given up (for the time being) trying to publish a puzzle cache and have just changed them all to Traditional caches!

I don't think you need to do that.

 

For a typical "solve at home to get the final coordinates" style of puzzle, it looks like Groundspeak now needs the following:

 

Posted Coordinates: (bogus location within 2 miles of final location)

Reference Point: (same as posted coordinates, letting them know the posted coordinates are indeed bogus)

Final Location: (where the cache is actually located)

 

This distinguishes them from other types of mystery/puzzle caches where the container is located at the posted coordinates, or where a physical puzzle is located at the posted coordinates, or where some other physical game piece placed by the CO is located at the posted coordinates.

[+Derekn]

..................

 

For a typical "solve at home to get the final coordinates" style of puzzle, it looks like Groundspeak now needs the following:

 

Posted Coordinates: (bogus location within 2 miles of final location)

Reference Point: (same as posted coordinates, letting them know the posted coordinates are indeed bogus)

Final Location: (where the cache is actually located)

 

..........

 

Now that I CAN understand ....... regarding the completion of the cache details But still can't understand why they require the Reference point when it is the same as the posted co-ords!!!

 

Anyway, many many thanks guys ...... I might just try publishing a puzzle now

 

Derek

[+niraD]

But still can't understand why they require the Reference point when it is the same as the posted co-ords!!!

Basically, it allows them to distinguish (with confidence, and even in an automated manner) between different types of mystery/puzzle caches. For example:

 

Solve puzzle at home to get final coordinates:

Posted Coordinates: bogus location

Reference Point: same bogus location as posted coordinates

Final Location: puzzle solution

 

Physical puzzle at posted coordinates:

Posted Coordinates: physical puzzle location

Stage of Multi-cache: same physical puzzle location as posted coordinates

Final Location: puzzle solution

 

Copy info from existing monument (listed as multi-cache in CA, but as mystery/puzzle in MA):

Posted Coordinates: existing monument location

Question to Answer: same existing monument location as posted coordinates

Final Location: container location

 

Challenge cache located at posted coordinates:

Posted Coordinates: container location

Final Location: same container location as posted coordinates

[+Derekn]

If only geocache.com had explained like you have above Darin

 

I spend hours searching the site and google for clues and found nothing!

I submitted one puzzle many times but it was always rejected whatever way I did it !

 

Thanks again

Derek

[Keystone]

I modified your previous post to help clarify:

 

 

1. The posted coordinates - which can be a "fake" location up to 2 miles away.

2. The "Additional" waypoint which is the same as the posted coordinates and visible to all.

3. The "Final" waypoint which must be the actual locaion and should be hidden.

 

Please note, in Step 2, the Additional Waypoint at the posted coordinates does not HAVE to be visible to everyone. If it's just a repeat of posted coords that are "bogus," it's OK to keep this hidden. But, if you'd like to convey information in this waypoint, like "project a bearing from here" or "location of plaque where numbers are collected," then keep it visible.

 

Really the only part you got wrong was the second one. I gather the point of it is to make it easier to determine whether the posted coordinates are the same as the final hiding spot coordinates. I don't know why they wouldn't be able to tell from all the other information we provide, but that's just what they want now.

The "extra" Additional Waypoint at the posted coordinates for mystery/unknown puzzle caches, multicaches and letterbox hybrid caches facilitates greater automation and certainty in tools used to determine whether the posted coordinates "count" for purposes of the cache saturation test.

 

It gets a little trickier in the case of a multicache where you may or may not have a physical object or tag with coordinates. If there is one, then that affects the saturation. If you only have someone go to a set of coordinates to gather information that already exists on-site, then that doesn't affect saturation and that point can be within the 528' of another physical cache.

Which is why a waypoint at the posted coords of the multi is helpful - it differentiates between containers/tags versus virtual locations.

[+dprovan]

But still can't understand why they require the Reference point when it is the same as the posted co-ords!!!

Basically, it allows them to distinguish (with confidence, and even in an automated manner) between different types of mystery/puzzle caches.

I'm sorry, but I do not see how the redundant waypoint provides any more confidence or automation that the lack of waypoint already provides. I suspect they'll find it takes more time and effort to explain over and over why the vacuous waypoint is required than it would to ask about caches with no final waypoint.

 

It gets a little trickier in the case of a multicache where you may or may not have a physical object or tag with coordinates.

It makes perfect sense and fills a missing need in multicaches. (Well, not exactly missing: COs could always do this on their own to explain the first stage's role, but I never would have thought of it.) Multicaches, after all, have to have posted coordinates pointing to something, so the required waypoint forces the submitter to say what it is. Forcing an unknown to declare that there's nothing at the posted coordinates makes no sense to me. Allowing that nothing to be parking would at least give the waypoint meaning, but, as I say, last I heard that wasn't allowed.

[+niraD]

Basically, it allows them to distinguish (with confidence, and even in an automated manner) between different types of mystery/puzzle caches.

I'm sorry, but I do not see how the redundant waypoint provides any more confidence or automation that the lack of waypoint already provides.

There is a difference between telling me that there is nothing in the box, and telling me nothing about what is in the box. (Those familiar with web accessibility should also be familiar with the difference between alt="" and a missing alt attribute, which is a similar issue.)

[+Harry Dolphin]

Wow. Now I have a headache! Worse than trying to figure out how much of my Social Security is taxable! Good thing I've stopped hiding caches!

[+dprovan]

There is a difference between telling me that there is nothing in the box, and telling me nothing about what is in the box.

If I went to the store to buy an empty box, it would be stupid of me to expect the store to put a tag on each and every box saying, "There is nothing in this box." (Well, actually the truly accurate analogy would be a label saying, "There is something in this box: nothing.")

 

Stores do sell boxes with things in them, and naturally I want them to label those boxes so I can tell what's in them, but I don't expect them to worry about that in the empty box isle.