Hybrid Caches

[SpaceCadetTy]

Hello all,

 

I am new to the sport, and have done some research, but still have a lot to learn, so please feel free to let me know if I am using incorrect terminology or if you have any suggestions for me. I wasn't sure if this was considered a general topic or education.

 

I am a Recreation Management student and am currently working an internship at a nature center with a mission that emphasizes outdoor recreation and environmental education. I have been tasked with creating a geocaching program for our organization and I have some questions that I hope you can answer. This program will hopefully include educational sessions for schools and scout groups, family classes, as well as a general activity for the public to participate in at anytime.

 

I have decided to go with letterbox hybrid caches for several reasons. First of all, we have GPS units, but the administrative staff is iffy on whether we should rent them to the public. We will use them for classes since staff will be present, but I think it would be beneficial to have a letterbox option for families that can't afford GPS units. Even if we do rent them out, the building isn't always open, but the property is, so rentals wouldn't always be available. Third, we have no problem with using technology in an outdoor setting, but we want to teach several methods of navigation including compass use.

 

Here are some questions that I have:

 

1. Has anybody created a cache note that addresses both the geocaching and letterboxing aspects of the cache? Where could I access this?

2. Do hybrid boxes discourage those using letterbox clues from take something/leave something?

3. Is it frowned upon to have a list of caches on our property posted? Is it better to direct participants to the website to find the cordinates themselves?

4. Are there any examples of organizations that have done a similar program successfully?

5. Do you have any suggestions for this program?

 

Thank you in advance for your help.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Local to me the Polk County Trek Ten Trails group uses a series of caches on different county properties as part of a get out& walk program.

 

On Geocaching.com these are listed as Letterbox hybrids, the coordinates on the listing are for the box. For the most part, the cache pages on Geocaching.com do not provide letterbox type instructions. Here's a link to one of them from the recent year. The caches do have stamps which are used in the Trek Ten program.

 

On their own site, they're listed by letterbox style directions for those without gps, as well as coordinates for those who want them.

 

You can list your own boxes both on Geocaching.com and on your own or other sites.

 

There's some language on these listings that's somewhat promotional of the Trek Ten program, it was vetted by Geocaching.com in the first year, and has not changed since that time. Know that Geocaching.com does not wish to see promotional text on your cache pages.

 

You can place trading or non-trading boxes; try to protect the stamp from being taken as swag. Loss of stamps happens to the Trek Ten Trails caches eventually, though often I'd guess those stamps are taken by casual finders.

[SpaceCadetTy]

Thanks for the info! Do you by chance know if there is a letter placed inside for finders? If so does it distinguish between the letterboxing and geocaching aspect of the cache?

[+cerberus1]

Though most of the letterbox hybrids we've found on this site had clues to find the container, all had (and are required) coordinates to start.

- It seems you believe a way around that with, "I think it would be beneficial to have a letterbox option for families that can't afford GPS unit".

 

Nothing beats experience and maybe finding quite a few caches yourself before instructing others would be beneficial.

[SpaceCadetTy]

Though most of the letterbox hybrids we've found on this site had clues to find the container, all had (and are required) coordinates to start.

- It seems you believe a way around that with, "I think it would be beneficial to have a letterbox option for families that can't afford GPS unit".

 

Nothing beats experience and maybe finding quite a few caches yourself before instructing others would be beneficial.

 

I don't feel that I am trying to find a way around it.

 

From the Geocaching Wiki

Letterbox Hybrid geocaches developed as an alternative to the traditional cache. It combined the written clues guiding the geocacher to the container for those who want to do that, as well as the coordinates for those who just want to go after the container without the clues.

 

From this site

A Letterbox Hybrid must include significant GPS usage for at least part of the hunt. Letterbox-style clues may be used to guide seekers to the container, but only if the clues are accompanied by coordinates specific to the hide.

 

I think this definition is loose. From looking around, I have seen at least two styles of letterbox hybrid.

1. Both letterboxing clues and geocaching coordinates are given from the start. Users may choose one or the other.

2. Clues and coordinates must be used to find the cache. Users have to use both or they will most likely not locate it.

 

Personally, I think that the official definition does not disqualify either of these. If I provide both clues and coordinates, GPS usage is part of the hunt if the user chooses.

 

As for instruction, I absolutely agree with you. The classes are a ways down the line. Currently I am in the research and preparation stages. I will not be teaching any groups until at least summer. In the meantime I am acquainting myself with the sport.

Edited March 5, 2014 by SpaceCadetTy

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

SpaceCadetTy:

 

I think what you should do first... learn Letterboxing and geocaching. They are similar in some aspects, but differ (sometimes substantially) in other aspects.

 

You seem capable of extracting geocaching info... perhaps you should learn a bit about Letterboxing also, seeings as how a Letterbox Hybrid must comply to BOTH activities.

 

Google "letterboxing" and you'll find lots hits... some of them Letterboxing websites.

 

Generally, Letterbox Hybrids are cross-listed between sites. You need to comply with the guidelines of both.

[SpaceCadetTy]

Gitchee-Gummee:

 

Thank you for your input. As I mentioned above, I have already begun my research, and that includes BOTH activities. I understand that there are differences between the two, which is why my very first question was if there is a cache letter that I can include that addresses both the GC and LB aspects of the caches that I place. I don't feel that the letters that are on each sports' site will benefit for a hybrid, and I want to know if anybody has created a hybrid note.

[+Semper Questio]

I strongly suggest you contact local geocachers and enlist some help. They can be of great benefit in teaching you the ropes and helping you with prepping and hiding a variety of caches as well as putting together classes. In fact, there are probably cachers nearby that already have at least some training material you can use or use as a starting point.

 

To that end, look for local caching groups online and go to some caching events to meet cachers. You could event host a meet and greet event yourself.

 

Good luck.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Perhaps create a normal cache page (letterbox or traditional) but offer printouts with letterbox-like instructions for families with out GPS?

 

Keep in mind most people have a smartphone these days so even if they don't have a GPS they can usually still find a geocache listing.

[+geodarts]

I enjoy both letterboxing and caching. In my hybrid caches, I try to create a similar experience for both players. There may be slight differences in how the starting point is described (since GPS coordinates are used on this site), but the clue is consistent on both sites.

 

People do the hybrid caches differently. I have always had the geocaching log separate from the letterbox stamp and book, I use one container, but different baggies to separate them. I include a letterboxing description with the stamp and a geocaching description with the caching log. To avoid confusion, I do not include geocache trade items. The boxes are labeled as being both a geocache and a letterbox.

 

AtlasQuest is the primary letterboxing site these days. It offers good suggestions for what is commonly expected in that game. I am not a good carver, but my letterboxes feature custom made stamps -- I have had letterboxers thank me for the care I put into that game, so it seems to work.

Edited March 5, 2014 by geodarts

[SpaceCadetTy]

Semper Questio:

 

Thanks for the advice. I think I will ask if there are any volunteers at the nature center who have been participating for awhile and could help out. There are actually some caches on the property already (independent of the organization) that I have looked at to get ideas, but in searching before them they don't appear to be well maintained.

 

Joshism:

 

That is a good tip for the initial instruction for finding the cache. What I am really interested in is the Cache Note listed on the left side of this page. But I want it to address the fact that it is a hybrid. Maybe this is what you meant and I just misunderstood.

 

As for the smartphones, our city is very urban for Wisconsin, and has one of the lowest mean incomes in the state. Sadly, some children that come to our nature center are entering a forest for the first time. No exaggeration. These lower income families may not have the means to participate which is why I want to provide both options.

 

geodarts:

 

This was very helpful. I think I will try that separation of LB and GC sides. So your cache note is two separate ones for each sport? Are there any hybrid caches that you have which you think would be particularly helpful to somebody who is trying to create one?

Edited March 5, 2014 by SpaceCadetTy

[+niraD]

Here are a few local examples of geocaching programs:

 

The Midpeninsula Regional Open Space District has a geocaching program. They have one cache in each of 22 open spaces, and participants collect stamps from the caches on a "passport" they can print from a PDF that is available on the site. The caches are traditional caches though, not letterbox caches. The stamps are not letterboxing stamps. They're cheap self-inking stamps that are just used to stamp the passports. Those who complete their passports receive a geocoin.

http://www.openspace.org/geocaching/

 

The Don Edwards San Francisco Bay National Wildlife Refuge has a multi-cache that takes seekers on a tour of the various refuge areas around the south bay. The cache itself is at the wildlife refuge's visitor center, since physical caches are not allowed in the wildlife refuge itself.

http://coord.info/GC1HQ1W

 

The Santa Clara County Parks' Outdoor Recreation Program holds a few geocaching classes a year. They provide loaner GPS receivers with geocache coordinates preprogrammed. They don't have any caches of their own, but they use the existing caches along an old-school power trail. After a brief chalk talk at the trailhead, class members are set out in small groups, with an experience geocacher in each group. They can find several caches of various types and sizes along the trail and be back at the trailhead by lunch.

http://www.newalmaden.org/Geoclass/GCCLass_06-14-08.html

 

As far as your plan goes, I don't think many people are likely to take up geocaching without access to a GPS receiver or a GPS-capable smartphone. Sure, there are a few of us out there. I found hundreds of caches before I finally bought a GPS receiver. But in general, I don't think you should worry too much about catering to people who want to find geocaches without GPS receivers.

 

But if you really want to create something that is both a geocache and a letterbox, then go ahead. You should also consider listing it on a letterbox site. If you're going to list it only on geocaching sites, then you could just as easily list it as a traditional geocache, and provide printed letterbox-style clues on site to visitors who don't have GPS receivers.

[SpaceCadetTy]

niraD:

 

Great links. Thank you so much. I really like the idea of the "passport". We actually have a "wilderness bingo" card that works in a similar way. The kids go out and mark what they find on the trails. I think parents would love this and it gives them a reason to come back to hit all the caches.

 

This will give me a good starting point when it comes time to design classes. Does anybody have an outline that describes everything covered in these classes? I want to provide enough information without it being overwhelming. For instance, should micros be covered for an intro class? How about trackables? I think the range of topics for the sport is so wide and some aren't necessarily defined as beginner-advanced. You just learn them when you learn them.

 

I understand what you mean, but that isn't exactly my argument. I don't want to turn it into a GC versus LB argument, but I think some people may genuinely prefer clues to coordinates. I want to give them that option even if they have a GPSr.

 

Your advice on providing the clues on site was exactly what I was thinking. I think that is a perfect way to introduce people to "treasure hunting" sports, and if they like it they can decide to try geocaching as well. If we don't have clues on site, then people who don't know about the sports won't know where to find clues, which would limit the usage of the program.

[JASTA 11]

Our Letterbox Hybrid is set up for both cachers and letterboxers, not simply a cache with a stamp:

 

http://coord.info/GC35DGW

 

For a pure letterbox hunt we posted it here:

 

http://www.atlasquest.com/showinfo.html?gBoxId=216645

 

To keep it simple, you could post yours on GC.com alone, but with full letterboxing clues for those who might want to skip using a gps.

[SpaceCadetTy]

JASTA 11:

 

Ahhh, so you actually did BOTH methods that I have seen. You have options for both geocachers and letterboxers, but even the geocacher must use clues if I understood correctly. A hybrid hybrid. I like that. I may not do it for every cache but I might think about doing it for some to change things up a bit. It's good to have different ways of finding caches.

 

Thanks for the advice.

[+Semper Questio]

{snip}

There are actually some caches on the property already

{/snip}

 

I don't know how large your property is or how many caches are already on it, but this could present a problem for you in regards to the proximity rule. In case you have not seen it, that rule is that the final cache location, or any stage of a cache with a physical container, cannot be any closer the 1/10 of a mile to another physical stage or final location.

 

Now, what you can do to deal with this is communicate with the existing cache owners and see if you can work with them to incorporate their caches into your program. Some ar eopen to this kind of thing, some aren't, but it can't hurt to ask.

[+coachstahly]

Thanks for the info! Do you by chance know if there is a letter placed inside for finders? If so does it distinguish between the letterboxing and geocaching aspect of the cache?

I did one of the ones Isonzo Karst mentioned and I don't recall seeing any letter that specifically addressed the issue you describe. There was a stash note - Congratulations! You Found It! ……. please go to geocaching.com for more info - so perhaps that is what you had in mind. The stamp and ink pad were in great shape for my LBH notebook where I collect all my stamp imprints.

[SpaceCadetTy]

{snip}

There are actually some caches on the property already

{/snip}

 

I don't know how large your property is or how many caches are already on it, but this could present a problem for you in regards to the proximity rule. In case you have not seen it, that rule is that the final cache location, or any stage of a cache with a physical container, cannot be any closer the 1/10 of a mile to another physical stage or final location.

 

Now, what you can do to deal with this is communicate with the existing cache owners and see if you can work with them to incorporate their caches into your program. Some ar eopen to this kind of thing, some aren't, but it can't hurt to ask.

 

Thanks for bringing that up. I did know about this rule, and fortunately the existing caches have been planted in a way that still allows for more of our own caches. We have 80 acres and there is an island that has to be accessed by canoe or kayak that I may end up planting a cache on. Furthermore, we are positioned on a river with public land along the banks. I'd guess I can still plant 5-10 more. To be honest, it seems that several of these caches are not being maintained, and some of the logs reinforce that assumption. It isn't a problem until it is, I guess.

[SpaceCadetTy]

Thanks for the info! Do you by chance know if there is a letter placed inside for finders? If so does it distinguish between the letterboxing and geocaching aspect of the cache?

I did one of the ones Isonzo Karst mentioned and I don't recall seeing any letter that specifically addressed the issue you describe. There was a stash note - Congratulations! You Found It! ……. please go to geocaching.com for more info - so perhaps that is what you had in mind. The stamp and ink pad were in great shape for my LBH notebook where I collect all my stamp imprints.

 

It is along the lines of what I am looking for, but that note is specifically addressed to the geocacher, with no reference to possible letterboxers. However geodarts suggested just putting two notes in, one for both, to solve the problem.

 

What I may do, as geodarts said, is separate the cache into two sides to prevent the stamp from walking off. Then include a cache notes that addressed GCs, LBs, and the accidental finder, and explain the options.

[+coachstahly]

Are you going to list the LBH on a letterboxing site? If so, they might have a "stash note" of their own that you could include.

[+briansnat]

Thanks for the info! Do you by chance know if there is a letter placed inside for finders? If so does it distinguish between the letterboxing and geocaching aspect of the cache?

I did one of the ones Isonzo Karst mentioned and I don't recall seeing any letter that specifically addressed the issue you describe. There was a stash note - Congratulations! You Found It! ……. please go to geocaching.com for more info - so perhaps that is what you had in mind. The stamp and ink pad were in great shape for my LBH notebook where I collect all my stamp imprints.

 

It is along the lines of what I am looking for, but that note is specifically addressed to the geocacher, with no reference to possible letterboxers. However geodarts suggested just putting two notes in, one for both, to solve the problem.

 

What I may do, as geodarts said, is separate the cache into two sides to prevent the stamp from walking off. Then include a cache notes that addressed GCs, LBs, and the accidental finder, and explain the options.

 

Nothing keeping you from creating a single note that addresses both LBing and GCing. In it you can tell the geocachers not to take the stamp in very big letters. It is an issue with hybrids. Maybe even anchor the stamp to the box with string.

[SpaceCadetTy]

coachstahly:

 

Good point and yes they do. I think I might take bits and pieces (both the GC and LB cache notes are entire pages) of both and form one note.

 

briansnat:

 

That's exactly what I was thinking, although I am realizing that my grammar in that last post made it unclear. Maybe a 72 font for the "do not remove stamp". You know just to be clear.

 

 

I know the matter of the stash note seems like such a trivial issue, but I think that it is important in making sure everything remains in the cache.

[+coachstahly]

Just make sure that you have a back up stamp (buy/make two if you can) so if it does go missing, you have a replacement. I did that with my LBH but haven't had to replace it yet.

[+briansnat]

From the Geocaching Wiki

Letterbox Hybrid geocaches developed as an alternative to the traditional cache. It combined the written clues guiding the geocacher to the container for those who want to do that, as well as the coordinates for those who just want to go after the container without the clues.

 

This is essentially wrong. LB hybrids were meant to create geocaches that were also available to letterboxers. They were not created as an alternative to traditional caches or to create a letterboxing-like experience for geocachers. They were simply both a letterbox and a geocache. The fact that something is a LB hybrid means nothing to a geocacher other than a unique icon. Take away the stamp and you have a traditional cache, an offset or a puzzle cache.

Edited March 6, 2014 by briansnat

[+niraD]

This will give me a good starting point when it comes time to design classes. Does anybody have an outline that describes everything covered in these classes? I want to provide enough information without it being overwhelming.

There are links to brochures, a PowerPoint presentation, and other resources on the Tools and Downloads page. Those should give you a good start. Also, the information on the Geocaching 101 page may also be helpful.

 

For instance, should micros be covered for an intro class?

Absolutely. You should discuss cache sizes, and have examples of each cache size (micro, small, regular, and large) available to pass around. (When I teach a geocaching class, I bring all my hands-on examples in a 5-gallon bucket, which also serves as my example of a large size container.)

 

You should also discuss cache types (traditional caches are usually recommended for beginners), difficulty ratings, and terrain ratings.

 

How about trackables?

Again, absolutely. It is important for newbies to understand the basic rules of trade items ("trade up, trade even, or don't trade" and the kinds of things that should not be left in a cache). It is also important for newbies to understand that trackables are not trade items, and that if you take a trackable from a cache, then you need to leave it in another cache, and you need to log its movement.

 

(Although no matter how well you explain this, some newbies will want to trade for the trackables they find, so it's helpful to have experienced geocachers with them.)

[+hzoi]

We designed this letterbox hybrid to work either with letterbox instructions or as a multi. Both started out at the same plaque; the letterbox gave instructions that wouldn't require GPSr to follow, and the multi instructions produced final coordinates. http://coord.info/GC275NN

[+Semper Questio]

{snip}

There are actually some caches on the property already

{/snip}

 

I don't know how large your property is or how many caches are already on it, but this could present a problem for you in regards to the proximity rule. In case you have not seen it, that rule is that the final cache location, or any stage of a cache with a physical container, cannot be any closer the 1/10 of a mile to another physical stage or final location.

 

Now, what you can do to deal with this is communicate with the existing cache owners and see if you can work with them to incorporate their caches into your program. Some ar eopen to this kind of thing, some aren't, but it can't hurt to ask.

 

Thanks for bringing that up. I did know about this rule, and fortunately the existing caches have been planted in a way that still allows for more of our own caches. We have 80 acres and there is an island that has to be accessed by canoe or kayak that I may end up planting a cache on. Furthermore, we are positioned on a river with public land along the banks. I'd guess I can still plant 5-10 more. To be honest, it seems that several of these caches are not being maintained, and some of the logs reinforce that assumption. It isn't a problem until it is, I guess.

 

Apparently, although you said you've done some research, it appears you overlooked the most fundamental research in placing a cache. You need to read the Geocache Listing Requirements and Guidelines. Then you need to read them again and then read them one more time. Be sure you understand them. If there are any questions, come back in here and ask or contact your local cache reviewer (look at the "Published" entry at the start of logs on a local cache).

 

This, along with finding some caches and talking to cachers (and letterboxers if you can find some in your area) will fill in a lot of your information gaps.

 

Also be very careful about the public land claim. Not that I doubt what you say, but placing caches on private property is a big deal. You just need to be aware of that.

 

Good luck.

[SpaceCadetTy]

Oof! So many posts to respond to. Alright:

 

coachstahly:

Just make sure that you have a back up stamp (buy/make two if you can) so if it does go missing, you have a replacement. I did that with my LBH but haven't had to replace it yet.

 

Thanks for the tip. We actually have a carving club that operates out of our building once a week so maybe I will ask for their help.

 

briansnat:

 

This is essentially wrong. LB hybrids were meant to create geocaches that were also available to letterboxers. They were not created as an alternative to traditional caches or to create a letterboxing-like experience for geocachers. They were simply both a letterbox and a geocache. The fact that something is a LB hybrid means nothing to a geocacher other than a unique icon. Take away the stamp and you have a traditional cache, an offset or a puzzle cache.

 

Your definition, if I understand correctly, is what I am aiming for anyways. I want both a letterbox and geocache in the same cache that both players can find using whichever method they prefer, and log it based on the sport that they chose.

 

However, this entry from this website does seem misleading to me and makes it seem as if the LB aspect DOES mean something to the geocacher. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding.

 

A Letterbox Hybrid must include significant GPS usage for at least part of the hunt. Letterbox-style clues may be used to guide seekers to the container, but only if the clues are accompanied by coordinates specific to the hide.

 

niraD:

 

Thanks for all the helpful information. That is a great starting point for me once I get started with the classes. Like I said it is still a ways off before I do that but I want to get started figuring it out sooner rather than later. This is going to be a long course! Any idea how long a typical intro class would be? Our programs usually last 2-3 hours.

 

hzoi:

 

Interesting concept. Though I don't think I will do it with every cache, I will consider doing it for some to add to the adventure for geocachers. Also, I wonder if this multi-cache method is a better way to do caches in general to prevent over use of an area. What I mean by this is the coordinates can get somebody in the right vicinity, hopefully on a trail, and if the cache is off-trail, clear clues will keep the cacher from traipsing about looking for it. Or maybe not if the clues are bad. Just a thought, as I am still working on traditional caches myself.

 

Semper Questio:

 

Apparently, although you said you've done some research, it appears you overlooked the most fundamental research in placing a cache.

Thanks for bringing that up. I did know about this rule

 

I think either I worded that sentence strangely or you are possibly referring to something else that I said? I have read the guidelines and understand the proximity rule as well as the fact that I have to ask before placing the cache anywhere other than our property, but it is entirely possible that I overlooked something. Please let me know if there was something else I said that sounded like a "no-no".

 

I will absolutely look into contacting nearby geocachers, though letterboxers might be a bit more challenging. They will be especially helpful when developing a class. Thanks for your help.

[+Semper Questio]

Semper Questio:

 

Apparently, although you said you've done some research, it appears you overlooked the most fundamental research in placing a cache.

Thanks for bringing that up. I did know about this rule

 

Sorry. My bad. I misread that. For some reason I thought it said "didn't know".

[+geodarts]

This is essentially wrong. LB hybrids were meant to create geocaches that were also available to letterboxers. They were not created as an alternative to traditional caches or to create a letterboxing-like experience for geocachers. They were simply both a letterbox and a geocache. The fact that something is a LB hybrid means nothing to a geocacher other than a unique icon. Take away the stamp and you have a traditional cache, an offset or a puzzle cache.

Your definition, if I understand correctly, is what I am aiming for anyways. I want both a letterbox and geocache in the same cache that both players can find using whichever method they prefer, and log it based on the sport that they chose.

 

However, this entry from this website does seem misleading to me and makes it seem as if the LB aspect DOES mean something to the geocacher. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding.

 

I agree with briansnat up to a point. There are a wide variety of letterbox-hybrid caches on this site. Some are nothing more than a box at coordinates with a store bought stamp in it. There is nothing about these type of hides that make them available to letterboxers. At the other end of the spectrum, hybrid caches can involve clues, are cross listed on letterboxing sites (primarily Atlas Quest), and have at least a custom or thematic stamp. To me, these provide an alternative to traditional caches and a letterboxing-like experience. As a geocacher, the latter interests me much more than the former.

 

As SpaceCadetTy points out, the key factors on this site is whether the cache requires significant gps use for at least part of the hunt and if it has a stamp. As I understand the guidelines, what people do within that structure is up to them. I have tried to make sure that my hybrid caches are accessible to letterboxers by developing ones that are cross listed and meet the expectations of letterboxers. In the process, the clue is also important to the search on this site -- so it does give geocachers a letterboxing-like experience.

 

There are, of course, a wide variety of letterboxes just as there are a wide variety of caches. Some I have done use a gpsr as a part of a clue to track distances. Several use a magnetic compass for direction. A few involve a series of stamps (that count as separate finds), but only one actual log book for the finder to stamp. Some are quite involved and others are park and grabs or just a box behind the counter at a store. As in caching, the experience you create is up to you.

 

This site, then, does not require a hybrid caches to mean anything more than another icon (a container with a stamp) or that it even be available to letterboxers unless they also play this game. But as an individual, the letterbox aspect that some choose to create is very important to me. A clue to follow, a stamp to admire, and a place where I can use my stamp make it that much more fun.

Edited March 6, 2014 by geodarts

[SpaceCadetTy]

Semper Questio:

 

Apparently, although you said you've done some research, it appears you overlooked the most fundamental research in placing a cache.

Thanks for bringing that up. I did know about this rule

 

Sorry. My bad. I misread that. For some reason I thought it said "didn't know".

 

No worries! Reading it again the rest of the sentence makes it seem like that is what I said, so I think the fault was on my end too.

[SpaceCadetTy]

 

Some are nothing more than a box at coordinates with a store bought stamp in it. There is nothing about these type of hides that make them available to letterboxers. At the other end of the spectrum, hybrid caches can involve clues, are cross listed on letterboxing sites (primarily Atlas Quest), and have at least a custom or thematic stamp. To me, these provide an alternative to traditional caches and a letterboxing-like experience. As a geocacher, the latter interests me much more than the former.

 

I have tried to make sure that my hybrid caches are accessible to letterboxers by developing ones that are cross listed and meet the expectations of letterboxers.

 

There are, of course, a wide variety of letterboxes just as there are a wide variety of caches. Some I have done use a gpsr as a part of a clue to track distances. Several use a magnetic compass for direction. A few involve a series of stamps (that count as separate finds), but only one actual log book for the finder to stamp. Some are quite involved and others are park and grabs or just a box behind the counter at a store. As in caching, the experience you create is up to you.

 

 

I think that first part that you mentioned is what frustrates me the most in this. I'm new to the sport, so there is MUCH I still have to learn, I don't deny that. But it just doesn't seem like it can be really called a letterbox hybrid if the stamp is the only difference. That's really just a different way of logging it, but the form of the search itself is no different.

 

As for the second part in bold, as I have said, I think I am going to take the route that you mentioned. I think that is the way to give everybody the experience that they want. Not all of the caches will involve clues in case some cachers just want coordinates, but I will try to make it that way on some.

 

The last part that you discussed is interesting to me. I am definitely going to consider the variations that you mentioned when creating the letterbox aspect of the cache.

 

Thanks for the help.

[+K13]

I will absolutely look into contacting nearby geocachers, though letterboxers might be a bit more challenging. They will be especially helpful when developing a class. Thanks for your help.

 

From what you said above, are there many letterboxers in your area? My check shows 26671 current Geocache listings (including 17 events) for the state of Wisconsin. There should be plenty of Geocachers that can assist you with this project. In my check on the Atlasquest website , I saw only 655 letterboxes listed for the entire state of Wisconsin. Is there enough of a 'market' for the Letterbox to make that extra required work a priority over a Traditional (or Multi) Geocache?

[+Harry Dolphin]

 

Some are nothing more than a box at coordinates with a store bought stamp in it. There is nothing about these type of hides that make them available to letterboxers. At the other end of the spectrum, hybrid caches can involve clues, are cross listed on letterboxing sites (primarily Atlas Quest), and have at least a custom or thematic stamp. To me, these provide an alternative to traditional caches and a letterboxing-like experience. As a geocacher, the latter interests me much more than the former.

 

I have tried to make sure that my hybrid caches are accessible to letterboxers by developing ones that are cross listed and meet the expectations of letterboxers.

 

There are, of course, a wide variety of letterboxes just as there are a wide variety of caches. Some I have done use a gpsr as a part of a clue to track distances. Several use a magnetic compass for direction. A few involve a series of stamps (that count as separate finds), but only one actual log book for the finder to stamp. Some are quite involved and others are park and grabs or just a box behind the counter at a store. As in caching, the experience you create is up to you.

 

 

I think that first part that you mentioned is what frustrates me the most in this. I'm new to the sport, so there is MUCH I still have to learn, I don't deny that. But it just doesn't seem like it can be really called a letterbox hybrid if the stamp is the only difference. That's really just a different way of logging it, but the form of the search itself is no different.

 

As for the second part in bold, as I have said, I think I am going to take the route that you mentioned. I think that is the way to give everybody the experience that they want. Not all of the caches will involve clues in case some cachers just want coordinates, but I will try to make it that way on some.

 

The last part that you discussed is interesting to me. I am definitely going to consider the variations that you mentioned when creating the letterbox aspect of the cache.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Well. I am certainly sorry that you do not like the Groundspeak definition of what qualifies as a 'Letterbox Hybrid'. But Groundspeak owns this site, and makes its own definitions. Certainly not the same as Atlas Quest. But that is Groundspeak's prerogative. Groundspeak requires a stamp, and coordinates for the start. And that's about it.

Many find my Letterbox Hybrid challenging because it is more letter box based. (And. No. It is not cross posted. That is not required.) "Go to this location, and follow the hints."

It is possible to create a letterbox hybrid in the style of letter boxing. I have enjoyed those of that type that I have done. But, if you want a pure Letter Box, then do it elsewhere. Here, you have to accept what Groundspeak allows and requires.

[cezanne]

 

From what you said above, are there many letterboxers in your area? My check shows 26671 current Geocache listings (including 17 events) for the state of Wisconsin. There should be plenty of Geocachers that can assist you with this project. In my check on the Atlasquest website , I saw only 655 letterboxes listed for the entire state of Wisconsin. Is there enough of a 'market' for the Letterbox to make that extra required work a priority over a Traditional (or Multi) Geocache?

 

I do not know the area, but I'd say yes. I have not necessarily experienced letterboxers in mind, but rather people who do not own a GPS-receiver and/or like to find boxes at least from time to time by following clues and not by following the pointer of a GPS-device. In the early days it was possible to get such projects published on gc.com (at least in my part of the world), but that has been changed and now the GPS has to play a significant role. Somehow I'd like to have something between letterboxing and geocaching: Online logs, no requirement for stamps, but no requirement to necessarily use GPS-receivers as an integral part of the hunt.

 

I have a friend who hides private caches (not listed on gc.com) for small groups of people who typically have no or very little exposure to geocaching/letterboxing etc. The feedbacks she gets are very good and those people enjoy to make new experiences.

[SpaceCadetTy]

 

Well. I am certainly sorry that you do not like the Groundspeak definition of what qualifies as a 'Letterbox Hybrid'. But Groundspeak owns this site, and makes its own definitions. Certainly not the same as Atlas Quest. But that is Groundspeak's prerogative. Groundspeak requires a stamp, and coordinates for the start. And that's about it.

Many find my Letterbox Hybrid challenging because it is more letter box based. (And. No. It is not cross posted. That is not required.) "Go to this location, and follow the hints."

It is possible to create a letterbox hybrid in the style of letter boxing. I have enjoyed those of that type that I have done. But, if you want a pure Letter Box, then do it elsewhere. Here, you have to accept what Groundspeak allows and requires.

 

This seemed like an aggressive response, considering I said nothing that went over the line. Disagreement is not necessarily equivalent to disrespect. Two people can have different opinions without arguing. Oddly though our opinions seem to be the same.

 

I think this definition is loose. From looking around, I have seen at least two styles of letterbox hybrid.

1. Both letterboxing clues and geocaching coordinates are given from the start. Users may choose one or the other.

2. Clues and coordinates must be used to find the cache. Users have to use both or they will most likely not locate it.

 

Personally, I think that the official definition does not disqualify either of these. If I provide both clues and coordinates, GPS usage is part of the hunt if the user chooses.

 

From reading your description of your own hybrid, it fits into the latter of the styles, which I said falls within the parameters of the definition. I even mentioned that I intend to combine both styles into one.

 

Furthermore, I never said that I disliked the definition. I said that it could allow for several interpretations, including the way that you do it.

 

The one thing I did say was that I do not like the style that only requires a stamp, with no clues at any point. Just as Groundspeak has an opinion, so do I. I would appreciate it if I did not get attacked on a forum for that.

 

If you did not mean to be hostile, then fantastic. If so, I would recommend treating newbies to the sport with more courtesy, unless you want to keep them away, then by all means continue.

[SpaceCadetTy]

 

From what you said above, are there many letterboxers in your area? My check shows 26671 current Geocache listings (including 17 events) for the state of Wisconsin. There should be plenty of Geocachers that can assist you with this project. In my check on the Atlasquest website , I saw only 655 letterboxes listed for the entire state of Wisconsin. Is there enough of a 'market' for the Letterbox to make that extra required work a priority over a Traditional (or Multi) Geocache?

 

I do not know the area, but I'd say yes. I have not necessarily experienced letterboxers in mind, but rather people who do not own a GPS-receiver and/or like to find boxes at least from time to time by following clues and not by following the pointer of a GPS-device. In the early days it was possible to get such projects published on gc.com (at least in my part of the world), but that has been changed and now the GPS has to play a significant role. Somehow I'd like to have something between letterboxing and geocaching: Online logs, no requirement for stamps, but no requirement to necessarily use GPS-receivers as an integral part of the hunt.

 

I have a friend who hides private caches (not listed on gc.com) for small groups of people who typically have no or very little exposure to geocaching/letterboxing etc. The feedbacks she gets are very good and those people enjoy to make new experiences.

 

cezanne, you beat me to the response! That's essentially what I was going to say. I'm not just taking into account experienced letterboxers. This program is more geared towards those who are new to the sport. So while that number is something to go off of, I won't really know the popularity until we see how it does on our property. And I could also argue that at one point there were only 655 GCs in Wisconsin. But look at the number now! I WANT to make both sports known and available to those who come to our nature center. Even if one is quite a bit more popular than the other.

 

That last part that you mentioned is interesting. While I am going to post some online, perhaps I could have some caches that are private for a group. I'm going to keep that in mind. Thanks for the tip.

[+TheHarleyRebel]

A cache can be listed as a letterbox hybrid as long as it has a stamp in it.

[+briansnat]

 

Some are nothing more than a box at coordinates with a store bought stamp in it. There is nothing about these type of hides that make them available to letterboxers. At the other end of the spectrum, hybrid caches can involve clues, are cross listed on letterboxing sites (primarily Atlas Quest), and have at least a custom or thematic stamp. To me, these provide an alternative to traditional caches and a letterboxing-like experience. As a geocacher, the latter interests me much more than the former.

 

I have tried to make sure that my hybrid caches are accessible to letterboxers by developing ones that are cross listed and meet the expectations of letterboxers.

 

There are, of course, a wide variety of letterboxes just as there are a wide variety of caches. Some I have done use a gpsr as a part of a clue to track distances. Several use a magnetic compass for direction. A few involve a series of stamps (that count as separate finds), but only one actual log book for the finder to stamp. Some are quite involved and others are park and grabs or just a box behind the counter at a store. As in caching, the experience you create is up to you.

 

 

I think that first part that you mentioned is what frustrates me the most in this. I'm new to the sport, so there is MUCH I still have to learn, I don't deny that. But it just doesn't seem like it can be really called a letterbox hybrid if the stamp is the only difference. That's really just a different way of logging it, but the form of the search itself is no different.

 

As for the second part in bold, as I have said, I think I am going to take the route that you mentioned. I think that is the way to give everybody the experience that they want. Not all of the caches will involve clues in case some cachers just want coordinates, but I will try to make it that way on some.

 

The last part that you discussed is interesting to me. I am definitely going to consider the variations that you mentioned when creating the letterbox aspect of the cache.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

I don't understand your frustration. Why can't it be called a letterbox hybrid if it is at the posted coordinates? You obviously misunderstand the point of the type. It is not to provide geocachers with a letterboxing like experience. For geocachers the fact that something is listed as a LB hybrid actually means little. The type simply means that the container is a geocache AND a letterbox. Geocachers find it the way geocachers do and letterboxers can find it however letterboxers do. Of course cross listing it on a LB site makes sense if you want LBers to find it, otherwise creating a LB hybrid is essentially pointless. BTW there is no rule in letterboxing that says the clue can't be coordinates.

Edited March 9, 2014 by briansnat

[+palmetto]

But it just doesn't seem like it can be really called a letterbox hybrid if the stamp is the only difference

 

In 2002, when the cache type Letterbnox hybrid was started, a large percentage of boxes listed on Geocaching.com were letterboxes being cross listed by their owners. Typically just as "box at coords" - no attempt to try to create a letterboxing type experience on Geocaching.com.

 

The cache type was invented partly to help protect the hand carved stamps - geocachers were taking them. Also some thoughts about combining the listing sites, but the letterboxing sites resisted that notion.

 

Now that Geocaching dominates "hidden boxes" gaming, people try to attach other meanings and purposes to the letterbox cache type. But really for Geocaching.com, it's just a stamp. For listing on Geocaching.com, just coords if fine - and for use by your non-gps owning seekers, letterbox type instructions.

You can add letterbox instructions, or use offsets for your hybrid as listed on Geocaching.com if you want to.