Petition: CO ability to change a found to DNF

[+Draghkar]

As a CO I see regularly that cachers log a cache as found where in effect they have not found it. this happens more and more often. the only remedy that I have as a CO is to remove this log, which i do not find right, since the cacher has taken the time to go to the location and write a log.

 

I would like to see the ability for a co to change such a log to DNF, so that the log remains and I do not have to remove it.

 

some examples:

 

A log stating that they saw the birdhouse at 12 meters high, but could not reach it. (logged as a found)

People writing a generic log for a series of caches they have done, but note in there that they saw the cache box, but could not open it. (still logged as a found)

in a case where the logbook had disappeared: saw the cachecontainer but the logbook was gone, still logged as found.

 

and I could go on with examples.

 

what do you guys think?

[+Seaglass Pirates]

The birdhouse example you give is a DNF for sure.

 

Could not open the cache ... depends what it was. If it was a bolt that has rusted shut or corroded shut and the person could not open it but knows that was the container (via hint or being with a previous finder etc) well then I would rather they claim a find if the cache were mine, and let me know via their log so I can go and sort it. I would be grateful they had not logged a NM on my cache to be honest. Or tried to force it with pliars and possibly broken the cache.

 

Log book not there but they have found the cache ... again help yourself to a smiley and thanks for letting me know ill pop out and place new one when I can.

 

I think the system is fine the way it is. You dont have to change their find to a DNF because you can delete their logs instead. No need to duplicate a fucntion is there.

[+ivanidea]

If they found and opened the cache, only to discover there was no log book, I would say their found it log should stand, since it is not their fault the cache has not been maintained.

 

But I do agree where it is obvious they have not attempted to sign the log, their log should be changed to a note.

 

I think it should be made clearer that if you can see the container, but cannot retrieve it, then a note is the best log to write.

[+carianne.vh]

I agree with Draghkar. a CO should have the ability to change a log type.

This should trigger a message to the user to notify the logtype was changed by the CO.

Within the message should be a possibility to clarify why the log was changed:

 

Did the ...series, we could not find nr2 but did find the bonus. TFTC by mr. X

 

This log message was changed from found to note on 28-02-2014 by carianne.vh

Dear Mr X, this log has been changed since you did not find this particular cache.

We reviewed the logbook inside the cache and found you where not on it.

All other logs in this series are valid and will remain unchanged.

[+TopShelfRob]

I agree with Draghkar. a CO should have the ability to change a log type.

This should trigger a message to the user to notify the logtype was changed by the CO.

Within the message should be a possibility to clarify why the log was changed:

 

Did the ...series, we could not find nr2 but did find the bonus. TFTC by mr. X

 

This log message was changed from found to note on 28-02-2014 by carianne.vh

Dear Mr X, this log has been changed since you did not find this particular cache.

We reviewed the logbook inside the cache and found you where not on it.

All other logs in this series are valid and will remain unchanged.

 

I would guess as a CO after deleting a log you could leave your own note (leaving the name anonymous or not) saying that a 'Found It' log was deleted and explained the reasons for deletion. Or not, that might cause more problems. But yeah, being able to change it to DNF sounds like that would be logical.

Edited February 28, 2014 by TopShelfRob

[+Semper Questio]

I've seen a lot of logs come across that show as "Found" but in the log th ecacher flat-out says they did not find it. This phenomenon seems to have started when the smartphone app was redesigned to put that ill thought out log button in the middle of the screen. When I get those, I contact the cacher (if I can - another thorny issue) and ask them to change their log and explain why. If they don't, or if I cannot reach the cacher, I will delete the log. But I see a LOT of COs that just let the inconsistent logs stand. Having the ability to change the log type with a note to the cacher would be a darned nice feature in these situations and I can think of others where it could apply.

 

However, I'm just not so sure it would be such a good idea to have available in all situations where the definition of "Found" and "DNF" can be, as noted previously, open to individual interpretation. Those sitautions seem to be better suitd to a little dialog between the parties involved. I can see this kind of feature could, in many situations, generate a lot more appeals to Groundspeak to act as a referee and decide what is a find and what isn't.

 

Overall, I think the current system is sufficient. It kinda forces communication where possible and, in the case of a deleted log, could encourage some unverified users to get online, verify their email, and open lines of communication within the game.

 

I think the bigger issues at play here are new player education (which the smartphone apps sorely lack any reference to), COs having the responsibility and the guts to step up and resolve these kinds of issues with their cache finders and helping them to better learn the ins and outs of the game, and Groundspeak allowing people to play the game without verifying an email address so COs can contact them in these and many other situations.

[+J Grouchy]

I've seen a lot of logs come across that show as "Found" but in the log th ecacher flat-out says they did not find it. This phenomenon seems to have started when the smartphone app was redesigned to put that ill thought out log button in the middle of the screen.

 

Yeah...the official GC app and c:geo both have "Found It" as the default. I think there should just be a "Log it" button and the user is forced each time to select the log type.

[+cerberus1]

I'd like it to stay as-is, thanks.

With the numerous examples we see in the forums of COs who still have ALRs on their cache pages, the last thing we need is to allow these folks to alter cache records that , to them, doesn't conform to what they believe is a find.

[+Giddy Up GeO]

By the same token, using the iphone app, it's not hard to make a mistake, and not saying all are a mistake. So? How can the player delete or change a Found It to a DNF?

[+cerberus1]

By the same token, using the iphone app, it's not hard to make a mistake, and not saying all are a mistake. So? How can the player delete or change a Found It to a DNF?

Click on View / Edit Log / Images next to your log.

The player just deletes the Found It log, using the red trash can icon.

To change type, go to edit (the pencil), clicking on the DNF (being sure you're logged with the same date).

 

The CO, so far, can only delete logs and pics, not alter/edit.

 

- BTW, you and girl 1 have double-logged finds. Happens with phones sometimes.

 

Edited to add, checked and you can change type from edit.

Never used it, but good to know.

Edited February 28, 2014 by cerberus1

[+geodarts]

By the same token, using the iphone app, it's not hard to make a mistake, and not saying all are a mistake. So? How can the player delete or change a Found It to a DNF?

 

Go to the web page in a browser. Scroll down to your log. Or go to your profile on the web page and view your log from there. Click the edit function and change the log as you see fit.

 

When you edit the log, you can change the log type without deleting it.

Edited February 28, 2014 by geodarts

[team tisri]

As a CO I see regularly that cachers log a cache as found where in effect they have not found it. this happens more and more often. the only remedy that I have as a CO is to remove this log, which i do not find right, since the cacher has taken the time to go to the location and write a log.

 

I would like to see the ability for a co to change such a log to DNF, so that the log remains and I do not have to remove it.

 

some examples:

 

A log stating that they saw the birdhouse at 12 meters high, but could not reach it. (logged as a found)

People writing a generic log for a series of caches they have done, but note in there that they saw the cache box, but could not open it. (still logged as a found)

in a case where the logbook had disappeared: saw the cachecontainer but the logbook was gone, still logged as found.

 

and I could go on with examples.

 

what do you guys think?

 

It would be good to have the chance to change a cache log type, as long as the cacher who wrote the log gets a notification (if they didn't register an email address, too bad on the cacher). That way if a CO does try and enforce an ALR by changing log types the affected cacher gets notification of it so can escalate if they believe they have been unfairly penalised. A CO trying to enforce an ALR can already abuse their existing powers by deleting logs that they don't consider acceptable, so it's not as if anything new would take place.

 

Regarding your examples - if the log is missing from a cache it's not the cacher's fault, so I'd say that counts as a find. If the cache is rusted shut that's not the cacher's fault so that should also stand. If they couldn't open a cache because it was some kind of field puzzle then they didn't complete the cache and it should be a Note rather than a DNF. If they chose not to do what was obviously required to retrieve a cache (e.g. climb the tree) then it should be a Note. If the cache was listed as T1.5 and the container was 50 feet up a tree I'd say sighting it is acceptable, given a tree climb clearly warrants a higher terrain rating.

 

I'd go for a Note rather than a DNF because in all cases the cache is confirmed to be present but wasn't signed for a specific reason. A DNF could suggest the cache may not be there.

[+Chief301]

I don't think it would be fair to delete a found log on a cache that was rusted shut and couldn't be opened, or a cache where the log was missing or is a wad of mush. That is your fault as a cache owner for not maintaining your cache. So at that point you've already shortchanged the cacher by falling short in your duties as an owner....now you want to add insult to injury by deleting their find, too?

 

If anything, I would be thankful to the cacher for letting me know there's a problem with my cache, so I can go out now and perform the required maintenance.

 

Let's say one person claims a find and honestly notes that they found the container but the log is missing. Now you, as an owner, know that there is no log in your cache. Do you delete the next 10 finds because, of course, they couldn't have signed the log since you know it's not there?

 

Now if it's a puzzle container and they couldn't open it because it's designed to be tricky to open, well obviously that's a different story.

 

I know the guidelines state that you must sign the log to claim the find, but I think the OP's interpretation of that is a bit of a stretch.

[+Walts Hunting]

I think I would delete those logs. The seeker (not finder) choose not to climb up the tree and complete the cache.

[+T.D.M.22]

For a cache in a tree where they say "I saw it but couldn't reach it" Well if you are going to say you didn't actually get to the cache, I'm not going to be nice and change your log. It'll be deleted.

 

As for a cache with not logbook-well they found it. They made the trip, got the cache, even opened it, and possibly traded SWAG or trackables. I'd let the find stand.

 

A cache where they had it but didn't open it? Well it would depend. If it's a puzzle box or something like that, well I wouldn't let the found it stand. If by bison tube is rusted, or my LnL is frozen in ice, I'd let it stand. Better than having to replace it because they tried to open it but broke it.

 

But I really don't see a reason to be able to change log types. Maybe on a challenge cache or earth cache where the finder can write a note and the CO can change it to found when they have confirmed that the finder has qualified, but that wouldn't be good for caches with absent owners. As a CO you have the option of deleting logs, or you could email the cacher and ask them to change it.

Edited March 1, 2014 by T.D.M.22

[+ecanderson]

When I find mistakes like this (cacher shows a smiley but clearly states was unable to find), I email the owner, wait a week, and if no response, then delete the log. We seem to be stuck with that for the moment.

 

What's bad is that someone quickly reviewing the logs, or looking at the 'last 4' in GSAK (which many of us load to our units) will not necessarily notice a recent DNF that is incorrectly marked as a find.

 

If we are permitted to perform an entry change of this sort, it should also send an email automatically to the owner of the log so that they know that the change has occurred.

[+Wet Pancake Touring Club]

There is a third party whose needs we may want to address in this discussion, and that is the rest of the geocaching community. For a deleted log, this erases any mention that an attempt has been made.

 

In the case of someone trying to decide if they want to attempt to find the bird house 50' up in a tree example, knowing that someone recently made an attempt and saw the container might be relevant information to their decision to go after the cache. So, I am more for preserving the attempt, rather than deleting the attempt, and therefore am in favor of allowing the CO to change a log to a DNF or Note.

[+funkymunkyzone]

I'd like it to stay as-is, thanks.

With the numerous examples we see in the forums of COs who still have ALRs on their cache pages, the last thing we need is to allow these folks to alter cache records that , to them, doesn't conform to what they believe is a find.

While I agree about some clear examples of when a find is not a find, such as "saw the cache up the tree but didn't climb", I agree 100% with cerberus1 - while you might add a nice feature that a whole bunch of responsible COs might put to correct use, there will be COs that abuse this. I've come across a few already, who deleted perfectly valid find logs because of their own agendas, and I'd rather not give them another weapon for their arsenal! Sorry to be negative.

[Andronicus]

Bump. It would be nice even if you could just change the log type from Found to Note. That would preserve the text for the cacher, while removing the mistakenly logged "Found It".

 

Prime example of when this would be needed would be a Multi that was logged as found when only the first stage was found.

[+Harry Dolphin]

If a cacher has logged a find, but obviously did not, I will send a not saying that the Found It can be changed to a Note, or it will be deleted. Most especially with my Web Cam cache. Seems a valid way to do it to me. If you logged it correctly, the log stands. If you logged it incorrectly, you have the opportunity to correct the proper log type. That seems the proper way to do it to me. So, my vote is NO!

The exception is on drive through cachers who log caches somewhere nearby, but never look for them. Those get deleted after I check the log book.

The log is valid, or it is not. Invalid logs get deleted. Simple, and all that is needed.