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Ma & Pa

TB HOTELS

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I was wondering if there are guidelines covering restrictions about trading TB's.

 

I know there have been many discussions in the forums on this topic and that most seem to feel that restrictions turn the TB hotels into TB Prisons.

 

I agree with the idea that the Cache Owner cannot have trading rules. On our many trips, we grab all the TB's that we find and try to help them with their goal.

 

Last year I had an email discussion with a Cache Owner who did not appreciate our emptying his cache. I could not find any rules or guidelines on the subject. Are there any?

 

PAul

Edited by Ma & Pa

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Trackable Etiquette, a Help Center article, while it doesn't speak to this directly, this statement is relevant, "The owners want them to travel and not to stay too long in one geocacher's hands."

Substitute, "stay too long in one cache" and you're closing in on what's wrong with TB Prisons.

 

I've not used in this in a long time, but here's my TB Prison reviewer note:

Hi

 

I'm sorry, I cannot publish this as written. The geocoins and travel bugs are not yours; you did not pay for them or their tracking and cannot impose restrictions upon their movement. Travel bugs and coins are not trade items.

 

Please remove the "leave one to take one" language from the cache page.....

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Groundspeak will tell you that travel bugs and coins are meant to travel. One school of thought is that a TB hotel with restrictions is a TB prison. I'm likely in this camp. When I deal with TBs in caches, I never worry about swapping them out. If I have one to trade, I will. If I don't, that won't stop me from taking a bug. I probably wouldn't empty out a cache of a bunch of TBs, as I recognize that they are becoming somewhate rare, and I wouldn't want to deprive others of the opportunity to move some. For me, cleaning out a bunch of TBs would feel selfish. I suppose, one exception would be if I found a bunch in a cache which doesn't get visited very often. Faced with that, I might take them all just to put them back into circulation.

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For me, cleaning out a bunch of TBs would feel selfish. I suppose, one exception would be if I found a bunch in a cache which doesn't get visited very often. Faced with that, I might take them all just to put them back into circulation.

 

I am with you there... I look at the logs to see how long it is between visits. If it gets visited a few times in a month or so, I will grab one or 2 if theres a bunch, but if it only gets a visit once every 3 months or more then I may grab them all to more on.

 

I try not to make it a regular practice to grab every traveler in a cache unless there are only one or 2 there. Exchanging travelers is usually pretty easy since I tend to have a few on hand all the time. Right now most of them are my own I am getting ready to release.

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I was wondering if there are guidelines covering restrictions about trading TB's.

 

I know there have been many discussions in the forums on this topic and that most seem to feel that restrictions turn the TB hotels into TB Prisons.

 

I agree with the idea that the Cache Owner cannot have trading rules. On our many trips, we grab all the TB's that we find and try to help them with their goal.

 

Last year I had an email discussion with a Cache Owner who did not appreciate our emptying his cache. I could not find any rules or guidelines on the subject. Are there any?

 

PAul

 

There isn't a rule or guideline on this, but if someone enjoys the trackables aspect of the game they'd probably get a bit annoyed if someone came through the area grabbing "all the TB's we find". Grabbing several, even if you don't replace any seems fine to me, but if you grab all of them you're not going to leave any for someone else that enjoys that aspect of the game.

 

 

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I was wondering if there are guidelines covering restrictions about trading TB's.

Yes. Ask each TB Owner what their guideline is. It's not for you, me, nor the TB Hotel Owner to say.

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Trackable Etiquette, a Help Center article, while it doesn't speak to this directly, this statement is relevant, "The owners want them to travel and not to stay too long in one geocacher's hands."

- Yet they allow "take it to" holders, some lugging around other's property for months.

 

(Sorry for being a bit off-topic)

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We've grabbed all from a few lengthy hike hides when Winter's approaching.

Twice we've grabbed all from TB prisons when noticing a "trade agreement" on the cache page..

- But nice weather, a decent spot, we wouldn't think of grabbing all, especially these days with so few around.

Others like to play too.

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We've grabbed all from a few lengthy hike hides when Winter's approaching.

Twice we've grabbed all from TB prisons when noticing a "trade agreement" on the cache page..

- But nice weather, a decent spot, we wouldn't think of grabbing all, especially these days with so few around.

Others like to play too.

Many (if not most) Geocachers can't manage even one TB. So I won't advise people to take a bunch at once. But if you have a plan and can log them all, and will promptly place them all individually into decent caches, go for it (and I mean "today", not the vague "two weeks from now" which turns into years). But remember that any TB may have a goal of remaining in that TB Hotel. Be sure you're not taking TBs merely to tick people off (a popular Geocaching practice). :ph34r:

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Trackable Etiquette, a Help Center article, while it doesn't speak to this directly, this statement is relevant, "The owners want them to travel and not to stay too long in one geocacher's hands."

- Yet they allow "take it to" holders, some lugging around other's property for months.

 

(Sorry for being a bit off-topic)

 

They also allow micro caches, which are too small for most trackables... It would be easier to move TBs if one could easily reach a larger sized, well concealed (against muggles), cache. Weather and season often work against the easy placement as well. The majority of what I move were already STUCK somewhere and need the travel time, even when it isn't prompt. I hate when I place one and it promptly disappears in the hands of a one day wonder.

 

Doug 7rxc

Edited by 7rxc

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We've grabbed all from a few lengthy hike hides when Winter's approaching.

Twice we've grabbed all from TB prisons when noticing a "trade agreement" on the cache page..

- But nice weather, a decent spot, we wouldn't think of grabbing all, especially these days with so few around.

Others like to play too.

But remember that any TB may have a goal of remaining in that TB Hotel.

We read missions when we hit hides and never had that one yet.

- Do you see this often?

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We've grabbed all from a few lengthy hike hides when Winter's approaching.

Twice we've grabbed all from TB prisons when noticing a "trade agreement" on the cache page..

- But nice weather, a decent spot, we wouldn't think of grabbing all, especially these days with so few around.

Others like to play too.

But remember that any TB may have a goal of remaining in that TB Hotel.

We read missions when we hit hides and never had that one yet.

- Do you see this often?

Nope. That would be rare. But there are TBs that are part of puzzle caches, which have very specific missions. I might even make a TB that has a mission to remain in its spot, and having it moved with no consideration for the mission would be annoying.

 

For example, I had a wooden ladder, to be used as a tool at a cache hidden high. Its mission would be to stay right where it is, but would have a TB tag so that people can see the mission. That would be only one of very few TBs ever designed like that.

 

OK, just by the law of averages, you can be pretty safe to assume that all the TBs in a TB Hotel can be moved freely. But my thought is that TBs are owned by TB Owners (go figure :ph34r:), and therefore the mission, or the wishes of the TOs, are what matter. So it's cool that you read those.

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I am very happy to see trackables move through my Travel Bug Hotel commonly. There is a couple of local cachers who come back and write a note to trade Trackables. I even use it to prevent me holding trackables too long and it can be a busy wee cache at times.

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I am very happy to see trackables move through my Travel Bug Hotel commonly. There is a couple of local cachers who come back and write a note to trade Trackables. I even use it to prevent me holding trackables too long and it can be a busy wee cache at times.

Good idea! :)

Similar, if we get to where we can't find a hide large enough (and that's happening more-and-more now...), we have a few to visit.

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I think I would rather see TB's in a hotel than in the hands of a less than 1 year/less than 100 finds n00b. Those seem to be the ones that go missing most often.

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There is no rule of course and you can take what you like.

 

Yesterday I was at a TB hotel with 40 TBs in it... I took 4. Taking 40 would seem a bit greedy.

 

Then on the other end of the scale... 6 months ago I placed 2 TBs in a cache. There were no finds for 6 months; then last week someone found the cache and took one of the TBs but left the other. I wish they had taken both; I'm feeling bad for having that TB sit there for so long.

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We've grabbed all from a few lengthy hike hides when Winter's approaching.

Twice we've grabbed all from TB prisons when noticing a "trade agreement" on the cache page..

- But nice weather, a decent spot, we wouldn't think of grabbing all, especially these days with so few around.

Others like to play too.

But remember that any TB may have a goal of remaining in that TB Hotel.

We read missions when we hit hides and never had that one yet.

- Do you see this often?

Nope. That would be rare. But there are TBs that are part of puzzle caches, which have very specific missions. I might even make a TB that has a mission to remain in its spot, and having it moved with no consideration for the mission would be annoying.

 

For example, I had a wooden ladder, to be used as a tool at a cache hidden high. Its mission would be to stay right where it is, but would have a TB tag so that people can see the mission. That would be only one of very few TBs ever designed like that.

 

OK, just by the law of averages, you can be pretty safe to assume that all the TBs in a TB Hotel can be moved freely. But my thought is that TBs are owned by TB Owners (go figure :ph34r:), and therefore the mission, or the wishes of the TOs, are what matter. So it's cool that you read those.

 

Here's TB Hotel where the owner has attached a lot of their own trackables for Discovery only. This is very unusual and it is very clear that the attached TBs are to stay at the Hotel--maybe they're the hotel staff.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC3J957_you-got-mail-tb-rr

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I started this discussion. thanks for the comments.

 

Here is more detail about the cache in question. The cache is in the province of Quebec.

 

The cache page stated the following in big bold coloured letters

 

FOR EXCHANGE of TRAVEL BUGs and GEOCOINS. You can take ONE TB OR ONE GEOCOIN without exchange if you are sure to move it in the right direction… Thanks.

 

Just before we went for the cache, someone had taken a few TB's to bring with them on a trip, but returned them when they noticed the cache restriction.

 

When we went for the cache there were 15 trackables. We were on a long caching road trip and decided to grab them all. Details of the trip, etc is in the email text below.

 

Some time later, the CO sent a message to recent visitors to advise that there had been 25 TB's in the cache and that they were missing.

 

He then did a bit of research and discovered that we had removed 15 trackables. He sent us the following nasty email (translated from french)

 

As this is my only TB Hotel , I try to keep it well stocked for the sake of those who will discover it.

You took from this TB Hotel, 15 trackables , without making any reference or to leave one in return! With more than 12,000 caches your active, you should , at this day , know how a TB Hotel works ! If you do not know it yet , just read the description, that I took the time to bold , colors etc. . So no excuse to act the way you did . I agree that this is just a game , but if all geocachers behaved like you, long ago that this great activity would have fallen into the water!

 

If you read the "logs" of those who went after you , you will find that discovering an empty TB Hotel , which often happens to me, is not interesting at all !

 

I leave you with this , hoping that in the future you are a little more responsible and respectful to follow basic geocaching rules just like the rules in society.

 

I replied as follows (again translated)

 

Hi

 

The TBs ( and geocoins ) belong to cachers who want to see them travel. They like their TB to get miles and visit the world. So during our many trips we take every TB we can and make them travel. In April we brought 40 in California and brought back 40. The year before we brought more than 50 to California and brought as many back . We made trips to Great Britain and Ireland and did the same thing . We often travel to PEI and NS and QC and help TBs travel. We did the same thing for trips along I-95 to the USA and Florida. The cachers appreciate our efforts .

 

In June we were off to Virginia first travelling from NB to Ottawa. We left the house with thirty TBs . We cached for 7 days on the way to Ottawa and picked up TB's in NB and QC, including from your cache . We had TBs that wanted to go to QC and ON and we put them in the appropriate caches. We brought the rest to the USA . We cached for 5 days on our way to Virginia and dropped and picked up a number of TBs . Again we tried to put them in caches that satisfy the desire of the owners of TBs . At one point we had 52. We spent 10 days in Virginia , hiking about 12 miles a day in the mountains. During this time we managed to drop all TB that we picked up in Canada and most of those picked up in the U.S.. We brought a few bsck to NB .

 

The TBs do not belong to the cache owner and the owners should not put restrictions that prevent TBs traveling. In our experience, there are too many TB Hotels where TB stay too long because they do not have enough visitors. We once owned a TB Hotel. I often went to visit to remove TBs .

 

You indicate that there were 25 TB in your cache. If people obey your instructions and only take a TB , there are TBs that never go out of your cache.

 

We will continue to act the same way. I suggest you seek the advice of other cachers .

 

PAul

Edited by Ma & Pa

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Ma & Pa, did you notify the Reviewer in that area of the wording on the cache page?

I would have done so and included the email from the CO with it.

"Advice from a few cachers" sounds nice, but an email from a Reviewer may put an end to it - literally.

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You took from this TB Hotel, 15 trackables , without making any reference

This would be the only thing which would bother me. When I take a TB out of a cache, (or more than one), I always include the details of what I took. From my perspective, it's just common courtesy. For those who come later, it makes a handy, one stop way for them to see who took what.

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You took from this TB Hotel, 15 trackables , without making any reference

This would be the only thing which would bother me. When I take a TB out of a cache, (or more than one), I always include the details of what I took. From my perspective, it's just common courtesy. For those who come later, it makes a handy, one stop way for them to see who took what.

 

.

Yep you are absolutely right. We usually indicate when we take and leave TB's. But in this cace, I was kinda chicken. I was hoping that he wouldn't notice or that he wouldn't notice for a long time. I guess it would have been smarter to leave a couple in there.

 

.

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Lol that email from the TB owner would have made me turn around and visit it again I think.

 

You emailed a defensive reply. Which is fine if you are in a position where you have to explain your actions. But replying defensively in this circumstance immediately puts you in a place of being possibly in the wrong in the eyes of this TB hotel owner. Instead of making him think oh Christ I may lose my hotel if I don't buck up he reads through your reply and tried to argue against it.

 

However the rules state exactly what is supposed to happen. And it isn't what he thinks.

 

I would log a needs archive on his cache. And in your note to the reviewer cut and paste his email. Explain that as far as you understand the rules this cache he is breaking them. And explain that this behaviour and rules etc are not in the spirit of geocaching.

 

From the TB forum moderator ....

 

"Travel bugs and trackable geocoins are not a trade item, you do not have to put something in the cache to take a Trackable item ... "

 

And paraphrasing from memory ...

 

"A geocache owner may not place additional restrictions upon a geocache for instance to stipulate a certain amount of TB's are present at any one time. If this is the case the geocache will be disabled until any such wording is removed. If it is found that a geocache owner is still persisting in this behaviour the geocache may be permanently archived"

 

I'm gutted that you were bullied in this way. You should not be expected to pay for the privilege of being bullied.

Edited by Seaglass Pirates

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Now you know why I don't do trackables. There is no way to win. you move em, somebody gets upset. You don't move them, somebody gets upset. You move them, but not fast enough, somebody gets upset.

 

Seems pretty odd to me that trackable and TB hotel owners get so upset at other people who are, after all, doing them a favor!

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I tell you what is tragic ... this this is still a topic of contention despite very stringent rules by geocaching and that it is still going on to this day overtly:

 

http://coord.info/GC1AWKA - "now you have a place to exchange those travel bugs or coins you might have for some new ones. If you don't have a travel bug, there are trade items in the cache. If you take a travel item, PLEASE leave another travel item in it's place."

 

http://coord.info/GC13DRK - "Please trade one for one please remember to log the TB you take"

 

http://coord.info/GC1RTPT - "and please do not take a Bug or Geocoin, unless you drop one off. One for one, or two for two." and "Please, this is a Trackable Items Only cache. Help these little guys go forward on their missions. You can take one, if you drop one off. Or take two, if you drop two off" and yet again on the cache page "There should always be at least two trackables in the cache at all times. If there are less, please email me."

 

http://coord.info/GC3XC27 - "Hotel's Check Out Policy: When departing with a guest (Travel Bug) please be sure to leave at least one guest behind. The staff here at Mariah's wish to keep their jobs and without guests Mariah's is just another cache, not a hotel." which has no definition in geocaching and is a traditional geocache by default.

 

http://coord.info/GC1KW2J - a much more subtle approach "Please exchange Travel Bugs for the enjoyment of everyone who comes. It is very appropriate to leave one if you take one..."

 

or covertly for that matter ...

 

A Hotel near us - nothing on the page but from the logs ...

 

"Another area of I have never been to although driven past many times. Shame we couldn't take a trackable. Got all excited for nothing. :("

 

yet there were some in the cache

 

more clearly

 

"A quick find near to the end of our day caching. Unfortunatley, some cachers can not follow the simple rules of keeping at least three trackables in the cache. But anyway it is a great idea for a cache and is well maintained..."

 

this was someone visiting the geocache and was telling another visitor off???

 

Tragic that this subject is a weekly and sometimes daily affair across geocaching.

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In fact a google search for TB hotels brings back as the top answer this list -

 

http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=3e10e494-31e7-4f10-8b8f-93c0e1f30b6e

 

This is from page 1. There are 20 Hotels recorded on the first page. Of which 5 have been archived for mostly being muggled and repeatedly so. This resulting in the loss of 7 TB's still logged into them. This leaves 15 still active. Of which 5 are listed below stating rules about trading the items. Or alluding to the same. Not very scientific but thats a quarter. There are 271 Hotels on that link. Assuming the same applies for the entire bookmark list:

 

This could mean of the 271 records there may be 67 archived Hotels of which a portion will be due to "repeated" muggling as with the others mentioned. Resulting in a potential loss of 5 caches containing 7 lost TB's (7 divided by 5 giving 1.4 TB's per cache) multiplied by the potentially archived caches (67), for the entire bookmark list (271 records) = 93 potentially lost TB's.

 

Not exactly scientific but the data is calculable ... by going through them all urghhh however on the first page there were these ...

 

http://coord.info/GC32958 - PLEASE help keep a supply of TB's available for the next person to find and trade. If you take 1, leave 1. If you take 5, leave 5... so on & so on. TY

 

http://coord.info/GC149ZK - The rules are simple: Don't visit just once! Sign the log Travel Bugs and Geocoins only Keep it neat and clean Let's keep at least a few items at all times in the hotel I'll replenish if necessary with my collection.

 

http://coord.info/GC3D98P - If you take a TB, please leave a TB. The cache is starting out with two.

 

http://coord.info/GC2YHW9 - We ask that only travelers be traded in this cache and that there is at least 3 travelers here at a time.

 

http://coord.info/GC236NN - It is an Exchange. To take an Geocoin or Travel Bug out you need to put one in. That way there will always be a Geocoin or Travel Bug available in the cache.

 

Which if muggled will result in an inflated loss rate due to the enforced level of TB's. If any of the 271 insist on 4 TB's at any one time, then this increases TB losses significantly. If the hotel is repeatedly muggled this also inflates the figures. Magnify that world wide and you begin to understand why these prison rules are being outlawed and why TB owners are getting more than a little angry.

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....

However the rules state exactly what is supposed to happen. And it isn't what he thinks.

 

....

From the TB forum moderator ....

 

"Travel bugs and trackable geocoins are not a trade item, you do not have to put something in the cache to take a Trackable item ... "

 

And paraphrasing from memory ...

 

"A geocache owner may not place additional restrictions upon a geocache for instance to stipulate a certain amount of TB's are present at any one time. If this is the case the geocache will be disabled until any such wording is removed. If it is found that a geocache owner is still persisting in this behaviour the geocache may be permanently archived"

......

 

In my original post I was asking if there were rules or guidelines on this topic. I wish there were, so that I could quote them. The quotes in the forum from a moderator are great but they dont have the same weight as a rule or guideline and are tougher to use in an argument.

 

PAul

Edited by Ma & Pa

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Ma & Pa, did you notify the Reviewer in that area of the wording on the cache page?

I would have done so and included the email from the CO with it.

"Advice from a few cachers" sounds nice, but an email from a Reviewer may put an end to it - literally.

 

I would have posted a NA log and pasted in the email from the CO. Problem solved for all time.

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Ma & Pa, did you notify the Reviewer in that area of the wording on the cache page?

I would have done so and included the email from the CO with it.

"Advice from a few cachers" sounds nice, but an email from a Reviewer may put an end to it - literally.

 

I would have posted a NA log and pasted in the email from the CO. Problem solved for all time.

Sure, an NA when you were there. I think most of us would,

 

But the notice from the CO didn't come until after he did a little research on missing trackables "some time later", according to the OP.

"Kinda chicken", they scooted without mentioning the trackables on the cache page, " I was hoping that he wouldn't notice or that he wouldn't notice for a long time".

The last thing they'd need now is to create more geodrama for others, by going back to the problem cache page "some time later" to place an NA, when an email to the Reviewer would do the same.

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You emailed a defensive reply. Which is fine if you are in a position where you have to explain your actions. But replying defensively in this circumstance immediately puts you in a place of being possibly in the wrong in the eyes of this TB hotel owner. Instead of making him think oh Christ I may lose my hotel if I don't buck up he reads through your reply and tried to argue against it.

Exactly.

Hopefully lesson learned in case there's ever a next time.

Seems most of this could have been handled by placing an NA after the log referencing removal of the TBs. Short n sweet.

- Instead, this all happens "some time later" (a month? six?), by hoping the CO wouldn't notice they were missing and not wanting to get involved (kinda chicken) by placing an NA.

 

This happens a lot. Some folks get labeled geocop for nailing COs like this, when a gazillion others think the same, but don't wanta get involved.

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In fact a google search for TB hotels brings back as the top answer this list -

 

http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=3e10e494-31e7-4f10-8b8f-93c0e1f30b6e

 

This is from page 1. There are 20 Hotels recorded on the first page. Of which 5 have been archived for mostly being muggled and repeatedly so. This resulting in the loss of 7 TB's still logged into them. This leaves 15 still active. Of which 5 are listed below stating rules about trading the items. Or alluding to the same. Not very scientific but thats a quarter. There are 271 Hotels on that link. Assuming the same applies for the entire bookmark list:

 

This could mean of the 271 records there may be 67 archived Hotels of which a portion will be due to "repeated" muggling as with the others mentioned. Resulting in a potential loss of 5 caches containing 7 lost TB's (7 divided by 5 giving 1.4 TB's per cache) multiplied by the potentially archived caches (67), for the entire bookmark list (271 records) = 93 potentially lost TB's.

 

Not exactly scientific but the data is calculable ... by going through them all urghhh however on the first page there were these ...

 

http://coord.info/GC32958 - PLEASE help keep a supply of TB's available for the next person to find and trade. If you take 1, leave 1. If you take 5, leave 5... so on & so on. TY

 

http://coord.info/GC149ZK - The rules are simple: Don't visit just once! Sign the log Travel Bugs and Geocoins only Keep it neat and clean Let's keep at least a few items at all times in the hotel I'll replenish if necessary with my collection.

 

http://coord.info/GC3D98P - If you take a TB, please leave a TB. The cache is starting out with two.

 

http://coord.info/GC2YHW9 - We ask that only travelers be traded in this cache and that there is at least 3 travelers here at a time.

 

http://coord.info/GC236NN - It is an Exchange. To take an Geocoin or Travel Bug out you need to put one in. That way there will always be a Geocoin or Travel Bug available in the cache.

 

Which if muggled will result in an inflated loss rate due to the enforced level of TB's. If any of the 271 insist on 4 TB's at any one time, then this increases TB losses significantly. If the hotel is repeatedly muggled this also inflates the figures. Magnify that world wide and you begin to understand why these prison rules are being outlawed and why TB owners are getting more than a little angry.

 

Have we not heard from a reviewer yet? I was under the impression since that fateful day that ALR's were eliminated, that "take one leave one" TB trading rules were officially covered, and that TB prisons were no longer allowed under the "No ALR's" clause.

 

Out of all those linked above, only one of them was placed in the ol' "ALR days". I'm of the opinion none of the others should have been published. Unless we are expected to believe the old "changed after publication" line. In every single case above. :ph34r:

 

In other words, some reviewers aren't looking too hard at TB Hotel cache pages looking for ALR's. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. :)

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Now you know why I don't do trackables. There is no way to win. you move em, somebody gets upset. You don't move them, somebody gets upset. You move them, but not fast enough, somebody gets upset.

Perhaps you weren't doing it right. I've moved 114 Trackables and received zero complaints.

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In fact a google search for TB hotels brings back as the top answer this list -

 

http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=3e10e494-31e7-4f10-8b8f-93c0e1f30b6e

 

This is from page 1. There are 20 Hotels recorded .... and a big post

 

Have we not heard from a reviewer yet? I was under the impression since that fateful day that ALR's were eliminated, that "take one leave one" TB trading rules were officially covered, and that TB prisons were no longer allowed under the "No ALR's" clause.

 

Out of all those linked above, only one of them was placed in the ol' "ALR days". I'm of the opinion none of the others should have been published. Unless we are expected to believe the old "changed after publication" line. In every single case above. :ph34r:

 

In other words, some reviewers aren't looking too hard at TB Hotel cache pages looking for ALR's. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. :)

 

Do you have a tame one on this board?

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I've asked Eartha the TB forum moderator (quoted earlier) to pop over and have a look at this thread to perhaps answer the original post and also have a look at the thread.

 

Eartha is also a reviewer.

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In fact a google search for TB hotels brings back as the top answer this list -

 

http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=3e10e494-31e7-4f10-8b8f-93c0e1f30b6e

 

This is from page 1. There are 20 Hotels recorded .... and a big post

 

Have we not heard from a reviewer yet? I was under the impression since that fateful day that ALR's were eliminated, that "take one leave one" TB trading rules were officially covered, and that TB prisons were no longer allowed under the "No ALR's" clause.

 

Out of all those linked above, only one of them was placed in the ol' "ALR days". I'm of the opinion none of the others should have been published. Unless we are expected to believe the old "changed after publication" line. In every single case above. :ph34r:

 

In other words, some reviewers aren't looking too hard at TB Hotel cache pages looking for ALR's. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. :)

 

Do you have a tame one on this board?

 

Why of course. They're all tame. :lol:

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We're not big fans of TB Hotels. It seems that they seldom actually have any trackables in them.

 

There are some TB 'Wardens' around who try to impose their additional rules in the listing.

 

This is an example from around here, but not labeled as a ' TB hotel':

 

It is also important to trade equally or trade up. Please do not take anything from the cache unless you have something to leave in its place. I have placed two trackable items in the cache and that means there should always be two trackables in the cache. If you do not have a trackable item to leave, please do not take one from this cache. It is part of being a fair and responsible cacher.

 

I posted a note about TB etiquitte, not being regular trade items, wanting to move along etc. The note was promptly deleted.

 

Some folks see things differently...

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We're not big fans of TB Hotels. It seems that they seldom actually have any trackables in them.

 

There are some TB 'Wardens' around who try to impose their additional rules in the listing.

 

This is an example from around here, but not labeled as a ' TB hotel':

 

It is also important to trade equally or trade up. Please do not take anything from the cache unless you have something to leave in its place. I have placed two trackable items in the cache and that means there should always be two trackables in the cache. If you do not have a trackable item to leave, please do not take one from this cache. It is part of being a fair and responsible cacher.

 

I posted a note about TB etiquitte, not being regular trade items, wanting to move along etc. The note was promptly deleted.

 

Some folks see things differently...

Then stop by regularly and take the trackables and move them. If he deletes your log. File a NA log.

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In my original post I was asking if there were rules or guidelines on this topic. I wish there were, so that I could quote them. The quotes in the forum from a moderator are great but they dont have the same weight as a rule or guideline and are tougher to use in an argument.

Not to pick on you, since you're obviously in good company, but I really fail to see why everyone's so intent on arguing about it. The CO can't stop you from taking the TBs, so if you're going to do better by them than the cache, feel free to take them. If TBs flow through the cache steadily, take them if you can do better, but don't take them just to slap the CO in the face.

 

And for heaven's sake, if the CO sends you a nastigram, if you don't want to ignore him, teach him like a child, don't beat him up about his ignorance. In these examples, it's the reaction to the CO that seems to create the most angst, and typically expressed in ways sure to cause the CO to dig in rather than reconsider. In the worst cases, the person that takes the TBs seems intent to work against the needs of both the CO and the TO just to make a point about "guidelines".

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In the worst cases, the person that takes the TBs seems intent to work against the needs of both the CO and the TO just to make a point about "guidelines".

Yes. Sometimes I wonder if people are less interested in properly managing TBs, more interested in being declared the orneriest. :yikes:

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In my original post I was asking if there were rules or guidelines on this topic. I wish there were, so that I could quote them. The quotes in the forum from a moderator are great but they dont have the same weight as a rule or guideline and are tougher to use in an argument.

Not to pick on you, since you're obviously in good company, but I really fail to see why everyone's so intent on arguing about it. The CO can't stop you from taking the TBs, so if you're going to do better by them than the cache, feel free to take them. If TBs flow through the cache steadily, take them if you can do better, but don't take them just to slap the CO in the face.

 

And for heaven's sake, if the CO sends you a nastigram, if you don't want to ignore him, teach him like a child, don't beat him up about his ignorance. In these examples, it's the reaction to the CO that seems to create the most angst, and typically expressed in ways sure to cause the CO to dig in rather than reconsider. In the worst cases, the person that takes the TBs seems intent to work against the needs of both the CO and the TO just to make a point about "guidelines".

+1

No need for an NA log - that's just causing trouble unnecessarily. Take the high ground, not the high horse. In many cases this may lead to a less angsty solution.

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I have to agree with the cache owner. Although they may not be allowed to make these restrictions, I think since it's on the cache page, you should, out of respect, honor their request. At the very least, you should not have taken them all. At least leave some for fellow cachers. It was thoughtless to take them all.

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I wondered when this rubbish would start. If it is against geocaching guidelines it cannot be done. The CO has failed to respect the guidelines. Failed to respect TB owners wishes and you have failed to grasp that. Given that thinking it would be fine to bury a cache. Or set a commercial cache. Well you know since it's on the cache page it's inconsiderate to not respect their wants and needs. A balanced opinion set is all well and good but if it breaks with the terms and conditions of the site and ignores the guidelines there is no defending that. What about the wants and needs of the cache owner? Well they have gone against the guidelines and I'll tell you what that does ...

 

Causes this.

Causes those higher up to get involved.

Causes those higher up to tighten the noose by implementing more rules to close any gaps because that works

 

... and we can all use a few more rules and restrictions on cache placement can't we.

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If it is against geocaching guidelines it cannot be done.

Totally, but starting an "I'm right" war with the cache owner will only cause more trouble than it's worth. The OP did what they felt was right, and within the "spirit" (guidelines, TB purpose, etc) of the game. No need for posting NA logs and starting a war over things. The CO already got their knickers in a twist, so winding them up further won't help, when a gentle nudge in the direction of the appropriate guidelines would probably do the job.

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Lol yeah good luck with that. When it happened to us we had our log deleted. When I asked why I was told id broken the rules of the cache. We'd only just begun to cache. Assuming I was in the wrong I apologised via several emails. However because of our "mistake" the cache page was made more stringent with penalties and threats of deletion of logs. Then all of a sudden the geocache was disabled by the reviewer at the time. It remained as such until the CO was educated. And this was an old cache adopted by that CO.

 

The point being we felt bullied. Thankfully someone intervened and reported that cache. We felt dreadful and were regretting involved in geocaching at all. So sorry your way doesn't work. It just prolongs and propagates the rubbish, rumors and misinformation and it is not the situation that causes I'll feeling and people to get het up. It is arrogance, and or poor education of the subject matter.

 

But anyway I'm sorry you cannot defend this it's a ridiculous stand point. You are defending endlessly someone who is working against geocachings policy and arguing your opinion to me. Your opinion is not only void in this case it carries no weight. You would hope that you would consider the rules as the stand point. Oddly your not bothered. So anyone reading this thread at a later date will again be confused.

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Lol yeah good luck with that. When it happened to us we had our log deleted. When I asked why I was told id broken the rules of the cache. We'd only just begun to cache. Assuming I was in the wrong I apologised via several emails. However because of our "mistake" the cache page was made more stringent with penalties and threats of deletion of logs. Then all of a sudden the geocache was disabled by the reviewer at the time. It remained as such until the CO was educated. And this was an old cache adopted by that CO.

 

The point being we felt bullied. Thankfully someone intervened and reported that cache. We felt dreadful and were regretting involved in geocaching at all. So sorry your way doesn't work. It just prolongs and propagates the rubbish, rumors and misinformation and it is not the situation that causes I'll feeling and people to get het up. It is arrogance, and or poor education of the subject matter.

 

But anyway I'm sorry you cannot defend this it's a ridiculous stand point. You are defending endlessly someone who is working against geocachings policy and arguing your opinion to me. Your opinion is not only void in this case it carries no weight. You would hope that you would consider the rules as the stand point. Oddly your not bothered. So anyone reading this thread at a later date will again be confused.

 

Sounds like you encountered a rather more extreme situation than the OP did.

 

However, here, you're jumping to incorrect conclusions without reading and you're coming across to me as a bit of a bully.

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