650 FTFs?

[Clan Riffster]

If the CO want to give those FTF to the one that really help him out, all the power to him! If I was the CO if a super large project, I would gave the FTF to the ones that help me out. Thats my way to reward them for taking their time and money to help me out.

 

That seems to be an issue as FTF is a statement of fact

Exactly. A cache owner can proclaim whatever they wish. That doesn't necessarily make it so. Picking one of the 16 hiders at random, (let's call him Fred), did Fred actually find all 650 caches? If Fred hid 40 of them, could it be said that he found those? I suppose. Folks claim all manner of silly acts as finds these days. But what about the other 610? Was Fred the first person to find those, as well?

 

If Fred, and the other 15 or so hiders claimed finds as beta testers, I would simply shrug, and move on. But for Fred and his cohorts to pretend to be the first person(s) to find all the caches is patently absurd. Personally, I don't go in for the whole FTF thing. It's just not my cup of tea. If I happen upon one, I'll do the little FTF dance, and might congratulate myself in my log, but it's not something I shoot for. However, I have several friends who do place great value in FTFs. For them, the 'value' of the FTF, whatever it is, just got shot in the head. What for me has become meaningless, has just become meaningless to anyone who values accurate claims.

[+tozainamboku]

Exactly it would all become meaningless doing something like that. We have 2 or 3 duplicate logs out there that I guess I messed up and our phone double logged them in the beginning of our caching time. Even those kind of bother me. I have looked into it and can probibly find them but don't want to mess up the work we put into making our 500th find or 1000th find meaningful.

 

That makes exactly zero sense. Those finds weren't actually your milestone finds, and pretending they are will not change that fact. Leaving multiple find logs in order to preserve some mythical divide-by-100 goodness is just sad.

It makes perfect sense. You have a tool (the Geocaching.com website) that generates numbers based on the information it is fed, no matter whether or not that information is accurate. Once generated these numbers become magic numbers. They influence the geocaching you do. Based on the magic numbers you select special caches to find for your magic milestones. Later, you discover the input to the magic number generating tool was inaccurate. It makes no sense to back and change the input because that will change magic numbers that you've already used to select the special caches for your magic milestones. New magic numbers don't really provide you any information that you can use. You can't go back and change the caches you've selected for the new magic milestones that have long passed. So there isn't any reason to fix the inaccurate input. On the other hand you could always tell the tool that your old magic milestones are based on the old magic numbers and the new magic numbers are used only for milestones in the future.

[+TopShelfRob]

Exactly it would all become meaningless doing something like that. We have 2 or 3 duplicate logs out there that I guess I messed up and our phone double logged them in the beginning of our caching time. Even those kind of bother me. I have looked into it and can probibly find them but don't want to mess up the work we put into making our 500th find or 1000th find meaningful.

 

That makes exactly zero sense. Those finds weren't actually your milestone finds, and pretending they are will not change that fact. Leaving multiple find logs in order to preserve some mythical divide-by-100 goodness is just sad.

It makes perfect sense. You have a tool (the Geocaching.com website) that generates numbers based on the information it is fed, no matter whether or not that information is accurate. Once generated these numbers become magic numbers. They influence the geocaching you do. Based on the magic numbers you select special caches to find for your magic milestones. Later, you discover the input to the magic number generating tool was inaccurate. It makes no sense to back and change the input because that will change magic numbers that you've already used to select the special caches for your magic milestones. New magic numbers don't really provide you any information that you can use. You can't go back and change the caches you've selected for the new magic milestones that have long passed. So there isn't any reason to fix the inaccurate input. On the other hand you could always tell the tool that your old magic milestones are based on the old magic numbers and the new magic numbers are used only for milestones in the future.

 

I think you should think of it a lot like what baseball would do if they found out that due to a scoring error Derek Jeter actually had one less hit in his rookie season, and thereby his 3,000th hit was actually his 2,999th hit. They couldn't go back and celebrate six months later the hit after that as being his milestone hit. At the time, they thought it was the 3000th. The cache that you got at the time that you thought was the 500th is when you celebrated. If you go back now and change it to the next cache, which at the time you thought was your 501st, there wasn't a big accomplishment achieved at the time you found it. It's not just the number of caches, but the moment the goal was accomplished (or so you thought at the time) at the time that you remember when you look back and celebrate it. Maybe now you have the corrected stats and have 842 caches found, and you'll have a more accurate celebratiion when you reach 1,000, but you can't change the moment you thought you had the 500th... (Even if it turned out to only be the 499th)

 

I mean, to clarify, I would correct the duplicate logs so your current stats would be accurate, but I wouldn't change which caches you count as your milestone caches, because you can't change the memories of finding them, and that's the true importance of your milestone cache finds, IMO.

Edited February 20, 2014 by TopShelfRob

[+Don_J]

If the CO want to give those FTF to the one that really help him out, all the power to him! If I was the CO if a super large project, I would gave the FTF to the ones that help me out. Thats my way to reward them for taking their time and money to help me out.

 

That seems to be an issue as FTF is a statement of fact

Exactly. A cache owner can proclaim whatever they wish. That doesn't necessarily make it so. Picking one of the 16 hiders at random, (let's call him Fred), did Fred actually find all 650 caches? If Fred hid 40 of them, could it be said that he found those? I suppose. Folks claim all manner of silly acts as finds these days. But what about the other 610? Was Fred the first person to find those, as well?

 

If Fred, and the other 15 or so hiders claimed finds as beta testers, I would simply shrug, and move on. But for Fred and his cohorts to pretend to be the first person(s) to find all the caches is patently absurd. Personally, I don't go in for the whole FTF thing. It's just not my cup of tea. If I happen upon one, I'll do the little FTF dance, and might congratulate myself in my log, but it's not something I shoot for. However, I have several friends who do place great value in FTFs. For them, the 'value' of the FTF, whatever it is, just got shot in the head. What for me has become meaningless, has just become meaningless to anyone who values accurate claims.

 

Here's the thing. I pretty much know if I'm FTF or not. I don't need anyone to congratulate me, put my name in the cache description or any such thing. I just throw a few extra smileys in my log and add it to me personal stats. If someone else wants to say that they were FTF on the same cache, oh well.

[+Don_J]

Exactly it would all become meaningless doing something like that. We have 2 or 3 duplicate logs out there that I guess I messed up and our phone double logged them in the beginning of our caching time. Even those kind of bother me. I have looked into it and can probibly find them but don't want to mess up the work we put into making our 500th find or 1000th find meaningful.

 

That makes exactly zero sense. Those finds weren't actually your milestone finds, and pretending they are will not change that fact. Leaving multiple find logs in order to preserve some mythical divide-by-100 goodness is just sad.

It makes perfect sense. You have a tool (the Geocaching.com website) that generates numbers based on the information it is fed, no matter whether or not that information is accurate. Once generated these numbers become magic numbers. They influence the geocaching you do. Based on the magic numbers you select special caches to find for your magic milestones. Later, you discover the input to the magic number generating tool was inaccurate. It makes no sense to back and change the input because that will change magic numbers that you've already used to select the special caches for your magic milestones. New magic numbers don't really provide you any information that you can use. You can't go back and change the caches you've selected for the new magic milestones that have long passed. So there isn't any reason to fix the inaccurate input. On the other hand you could always tell the tool that your old magic milestones are based on the old magic numbers and the new magic numbers are used only for milestones in the future.

 

Both GC.com and pretty much every stat program allows you to adjust your milestones. This is usually to help in the case where you logged your caches out of order.

[+WarNinjas]

That is what I am going to look into. When I look at my milestones I want it to be those ones but also don't want the caches found and unique finds to be different. There is a challenge here that you can log multiple times when you complete the challenge. I qualify 3 or 4 times but haven't even logged the first one yet because I am unsure I want to mess that number up even more. We are going to fix this when we have time to figure it all out. I think it is only 2 finds maybe 3. I just checked it is 2 caches.

Edited February 21, 2014 by WarNinjas

[+wmpastor]

What could have occurred is that the 16 people stripped down naked, covered themselves in Crisco oil, and squeezed into something like an old Chevy Blazer, or possibly a Subaru Outback. At each cache they all hopped out and meticulously searched for the cache until one found it. Then they all grabbed brooms strapped to the roof and restored the footprints on the ground to the way it was and got back in and went on to the next one. With 15 women participating, it sounds like it could be fun.

Using this method one doesn't get their knickers in a twist.

 

The problem lies a level higher. Groundspeak unfortunately officially tolerates such behaviour.

I'm not clear on what you mean. Are you saying GS tolerates team logging or that they tolerate Kinky Krisco Kaching?

[+Alkhalikoi]

I like an FTF now and again, but these arguments over what is or isn't an FTF always remind me of this…

 

[ZeekLTK]

It's gotten ridiculous how much people cheat in order to say they got a "FTF" - it pretty much makes it meaningless IMO.

 

For example, I was browsing caches in my area to go find and came across one where the guy literally wrote that the only reason he placed it is because his friend had a streak going (had at least 1 FTF every month for [however many months]) and it was almost the end of January and the guy didn't have a FTF yet, so he was placing the cache just so his buddy could log a FTF on it.

 

At that point, how is such a streak even worthwhile if you have to cheat to keep it going? Is that really "fun"? I would have loved to read that someone else got a FTF on that one, and the guy's streak ended anyways (lol) but I bet the log was already signed before it was even published. So lame.

Edited February 23, 2014 by ZeekLTK

[+WarNinjas]

I have placed some caches to keep the streak of FTF for a friend cacher before. We are sometimes evil so one he never has found and another his log was that he would never ask us to hide one for him again.

[Clan Riffster]

It's gotten ridiculous how much people cheat in order to say they got a "FTF"

While I agree that, to me, the whole FTF side game has reached new heights of absurdity, I'm unclear on how the actions you described could possibly be interpreted as 'cheating'. As I understand the term, cheating implies violating some rule. Thankfully, there are no rules, or even guidelines, to this silliness. Some would argue that the term could be applied to a lesser offense of violating the established norm, when there are no rules in place. News flash. There are no established norms, either. Would you like to have been FTF on the cache you mentioned? "Poof!". By the power vested in me by the city, county and state of Lily Pad, you can now proudly proclaim that you were the FTF.

 

- it pretty much makes it meaningless IMO.

No. Even something as ridiculous as having someone hide a cache just so someone else can keep their FTF streak alive doesn't make the FTF side game meaningless. It was meaningless long before that.

[+Mudfrog]

It's gotten ridiculous how much people cheat in order to say they got a "FTF" - it pretty much makes it meaningless IMO.

 

For example, I was browsing caches in my area to go find and came across one where the guy literally wrote that the only reason he placed it is because his friend had a streak going (had at least 1 FTF every month for [however many months]) and it was almost the end of January and the guy didn't have a FTF yet, so he was placing the cache just so his buddy could log a FTF on it.

 

At that point, how is such a streak even worthwhile if you have to cheat to keep it going? Is that really "fun"? I would have loved to read that someone else got a FTF on that one, and the guy's streak ended anyways (lol) but I bet the log was already signed before it was even published. So lame.

 

I have mixed feelings about hides that are placed to help others fulfill challenges. I don't feel these caches are a bad thing if they follow gc.com guidlines and don't show any special favoritism towards a single cacher. In otherwords, set the cache out just like you would do any other normal cache. In this instance, i'd consider it lame, and kinda sad too, if the CO gave his buddy a heads up before anyone else.

[+dprovan]

At that point, how is such a streak even worthwhile if you have to cheat to keep it going?

Who is cheating here?

 

Is that really "fun"? I would have loved to read that someone else got a FTF on that one, and the guy's streak ended anyways (lol) but I bet the log was already signed before it was even published. So lame.

Oh, I see, you're just assuming they're cheating even though you have no evidence whatsoever to make such an accusation. I don't have any reason to think less of them, but now I have a reason to think less of you.

[+tozainamboku]

It's gotten ridiculous how much people cheat in order to say they got a "FTF"

While I agree that, to me, the whole FTF side game has reached new heights of absurdity, I'm unclear on how the actions you described could possibly be interpreted as 'cheating'. As I understand the term, cheating implies violating some rule.

While there are no official first to find rules, there are many individuals and groups of players have established their own rules.

 

While many will say that FTF is simply the first person to sign the log, various groups have informal rules of who this might be. These informal rules address common issues that come up in FTF situations such as the caches owner giving a friend early access to coordinates or having "beta" finders who sign the log book.

 

In many areas it is common to claim FTF if you are the first to find after the cache was published or using some other way to determine that the name(s) in the log before you are disqualified.

 

Other groups simply resort to calling the early finders "cheaters" and feeling righteous indignation toward anyone who had an unfair advantage in being FTF.

Edited February 23, 2014 by tozainamboku

[+ShaunEM]

The FTF race is like a nuclear explosion.

 

I would prefer to duck and cover until the blast subsides. Then leisurely make my way over to the cache and make a regular find.

 

Horray!

 

Shaun

[+geodarts]

In many areas it is common to claim FTF if you are the first to find after the cache was published or using some other way to determine that the name(s) in the log before you are disqualified.

 

The good thing about the side game is that you can claim whatever you want in whatever way you want and it has as much validity as anything else. Of course there will be people who will remind you that only the first to sign a log can be the first. But that need not affect your claim at all.

Edited February 23, 2014 by geodarts

[+Don_J]

In many areas it is common to claim FTF if you are the first to find after the cache was published or using some other way to determine that the name(s) in the log before you are disqualified.

 

The good thing about the side game is that you can claim whatever you want in whatever way you want and it has as much validity as anything else. Of course there will be people who will remind you that only the first to sign a log can be the first. But that need not affect your claim at all.

 

Even if I find the cache on my friend's kitchen table and sign the log two weeks before he even hides it?

[Clan Riffster]

In many areas it is common to claim FTF if you are the first to find after the cache was published or using some other way to determine that the name(s) in the log before you are disqualified.

 

The good thing about the side game is that you can claim whatever you want in whatever way you want and it has as much validity as anything else. Of course there will be people who will remind you that only the first to sign a log can be the first. But that need not affect your claim at all.

 

Even if I find the cache on my friend's kitchen table and sign the log two weeks before he even hides it?

Of course! That's the beauty, and the absurdity of this little side game.

I've got a future cache placement awaiting deployment in my garage.

I'll add your moniker to the logbook. Feel free to claim FTF, if you wish.

[+Fugads]

I've got a future cache placement awaiting deployment in my garage.

I'll add your moniker to the logbook. Feel free to claim FTF, if you wish.

While you're at it, can you put my geocaching name on there too? I could use a cache find in Florida to help fill out my map... But make sure I'm ahead of Don_J so I can get FTF honors.

[+Baad Daata]

Powertrails have destroyed the integrity and spirit of the game. I suggest that all of the numbers be erased. No counts beneath your name in a log; no way for the stats dogs to trace what anyone has done. Claim a ftf if you want and that makes it a personal badge. If someone else claims it who the poop cares?

 

The fast and furious powertrail game suits those folks with the most resources to include time and money. The family of four must play the game for its intrinsic values and not the stupid competive motivations. It was a hobby before I knew that someone was keeping track of how many I had found (about 400 finds). From that point on it became a game for me. Don't pretend it is a "hobby".

 

Competition has been a positive motivator for me but just as often has brought out the worst of my characteristics.

 

I liked geocaching before powertrails and stats but I don't have the courage to stop.

[+geodarts]

Powertrails have destroyed the integrity and spirit of the game. I suggest that all of the numbers be erased. No counts beneath your name in a log; no way for the stats dogs to trace what anyone has done. Claim a ftf if you want and that makes it a personal badge. If someone else claims it who the poop cares?

. . . . . . .

 

I liked geocaching before powertrails and stats but I don't have the courage to stop.

 

Its a good suggestion but the numbers are attached to every log and repetitive trails are everywhere. The genie has left the bottle even if I wish otherwise. Still, the question of having the courage to stop is an intriguing way to put it.

 

All I know that is I have no interest in finding 650 caches. If the area interested me, I might do what the OP did - hike to some of them and enjoy that experience. We visited the ET Highway a year or two ago and I successfully avoided all of the repetitive caches -- we only had two or three days in the area and there was too much too do apart from finding those type of containers. I suppose it was a matter of apathy rather than courage.

 

First to Find claims with all of the Yahoos and extra smileys are mildly annoying, but the logs soon disappear from view. I distrust most people with numbers that are higher than mine, but I don't look at the logs on the web site and the caching app I use does not include the numbers. My wife sometimes asks me if I would give up caching if she asked, but we are planning another trip to the Southwest and there is only one traditional on my "to do" list. So courage is a relative thing.

Edited February 28, 2014 by geodarts

[+Trav'lin Two]

Still trying to figure out what the big deal is about being FTF.

 

It really doesn't mean that you are the hot shot cacher. It most likely means that you really don't have a life or anything better to do

[+cerberus1]

Still trying to figure out what the big deal is about being FTF.

 

It really doesn't mean that you are the hot shot cacher. It most likely means that you really don't have a life or anything better to do

Could be there's just as many who think challenge streaks are silly.

- Everyone doesn't have to play the same.

Isn't that great !

Edited March 1, 2014 by cerberus1

[+The_Incredibles_]

Still trying to figure out what the big deal is about being FTF.

 

It really doesn't mean that you are the hot shot cacher. It most likely means that you really don't have a life or anything better to do

 

So true, so true my friend. It also means you spend alot of money on as. There's a number of people here, no names mentioned who will drive 1/2 hour or more (1 way) for a FTF. That an expensive hobby.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

 

There's a number of people here, no names mentioned who will drive 1/2 hour or more (1 way) for a FTF. That an expensive hobby.

 

I've done that

 

A few times. I'm not a FTF hound and I wouldn't drive that far if I didn't think the cache was worth finding. The FTF's were just a bonus.

[4wheelin_fool]

Still trying to figure out what the big deal is about being FTF.

 

It really doesn't mean that you are the hot shot cacher. It most likely means that you really don't have a life or anything better to do

 

So true, so true my friend. It also means you spend alot of money on as. There's a number of people here, no names mentioned who will drive 1/2 hour or more (1 way) for a FTF. That an expensive hobby.

 

It means you are retired and possibly living comfortably. The world is your oyster, (or clam).

[+The_Incredibles_]

Still trying to figure out what the big deal is about being FTF.

 

It really doesn't mean that you are the hot shot cacher. It most likely means that you really don't have a life or anything better to do

 

So true, so true my friend. It also means you spend alot of money on as. There's a number of people here, no names mentioned who will drive 1/2 hour or more (1 way) for a FTF. That an expensive hobby.

 

It means you are retired and possibly living comfortably. The world is your oyster, (or clam).

 

The biggest FTF hounds in our area are not retired. The retirees that get FTFs will head out if the time suits them, but generally will not rush out the door and drive over little old ladies on the way to GZ.

[+Ben0w]

Everyone doesn't have to play the same.

Isn't that great !

Exactly that is why I really like geocaching. I can do it my way!

 

It's my game, my rules, my spin-offs/side-games, my statistics and that doesn't have to be the same as anyone else's. Others found numbers or their side-games such as "FTF", "strikes", "grids" don't impress me (because I know how to get these without doing impressive things). Other cachers I get to know may impress me (if I get to know that they do impressive things). Of some other I may get a negative impression from what they do. But after that, it's my game again. Yours may be another, and most time they don't interfere, rarely they disturb each other, especially when a bit common sense is used on each side. What a great game!

Edited March 1, 2014 by Ben0w

[+dprovan]

Still trying to figure out what the big deal is about being FTF.

 

It really doesn't mean that you are the hot shot cacher. It most likely means that you really don't have a life or anything better to do

You could claim the same thing about someone that golfs well. What's the big deal about golfing?

[Clan Riffster]

...you spend alot of money on as.

My inner Grammar Nazi suggests a missing letter.

I'm hoping it's a 'G' and not an 'S'.

[+The_Incredibles_]

...you spend alot of money on as.

My inner Grammar Nazi suggests a missing letter.

I'm hoping it's a 'G' and not an 'S'.

 

Whoops! Shouldn't post while sleepy....

 

Yes, I meant 'gas'. I need to remember to ask the local FTF hound how much he spends on gas per month.

[+WRASTRO]

But 10 years ago people weren't so concerned with numbers much either. The game has evolved since 2004.

 

Many would argue that the game has devolved since 2004.

Maybe. But you'll still find a whole lot of people for whom numbers don't matter much. Some don't even log their finds. Others will log their finds and not be the least concerned with anyone else's numbers. Many won't pay attention to FTF at all. Many choose to ignore power trails and geo-art. Many take the time filter out caches they are not likely to enjoy. Many will will say that the only thing that has changed is how much effort they need to put in in order to have fun. Of those, some portion will claim then need to put in more effort, and others will claim that will all the caches to choose from, it actually takes less effort.

^^^Yep^^^

 

The numbers I have only matter to me. I really don't care about the FTF game although I have played. Power trails and geo art look like cachers have fun with them but they don't do anything for my caching fun meter. I still do something related to geocaching every day even though my stats don't show it. If a bunch of cachers want to claim a bunch of fake FTFs I don't care. I am glad they are enjoying the game the way they want to play. It does not matter to me if they want to play the game in a way that would not be of interest to me. I cache to have fun and when it isn't fun I don't cache. I can have fun finding LPCs, or not. I can also have fun exploring an area I have not previously visited. Sometimes I find really cool caches. Sometimes I find caches. I almost always have fun because I enjoy the game and I don't play when it isn't fun for me.

 

 

[+hzoi]

So where do you expect Groundspeak to draw the line?

 

I drew my own line a couple years ago when I stopped caring about being first to find. Too many times I found myself getting frustrated or disappointed when I found a new cache only to find that someone beat me by ten minutes. I realized, shouldn't I be enjoying the find, not disappointed by it? So, the heck with it.

 

I still end up being the first guy to log a cache now and then, but I don't break my neck for the privilege, it just happens to work out that way sometimes.

 

I also quit recognizing the first finders on our caches, because one time getting caught in the middle of an argument about who was "truly" first was more than enough for me.

 

To those who still enjoy it -- by all means, go for it, and I hope you're enjoying it.

 

These days I think of FTF hounds like I think of people who drive faster than I do on the highway -- you're my beta tester. If you can get there while in a hurry, that means I can get there while going just a bit over the speed limit. If not, then so much the better that I wasn't busting my hump trying to keep up with you.

Edited March 2, 2014 by hzoi

[+Ben0w]

Still trying to figure out what the big deal is about being FTF.

 

It really doesn't mean that you are the hot shot cacher. It most likely means that you really don't have a life or anything better to do

You could claim the same thing about someone that golfs well. What's the big deal about golfing?

You (a general you) can earn big money beeing a golfer, I have yet to see pro geocacher tournaments on TV. Disclaimer: not that I want to!

[^up]

boils down to two camps:

 

Those that feel the need to be first to find to prove something to someone else

 

versus,

 

those that are satisfied with proving something to themselves.

[+Runnystrong]

Went out to do the Eagle has landed GeoArt. I hiked a section and noticed that the logs were prestamped under the FTF spot and only one set of footprints. So I figured it was the placer dropping the caches. Some areas the footprints looked older some newer and one section a vehicle was driven to each cache which is a NO NO here because the CO had permission to place these on an Indian Reservation and I doubt they allow driving off road. I was excited and thought I would get FTF on these but before I could log even one, someone started logging FTF the day before saying they were with a group of 16 and were FTF on all 650 in one day. The section I hiked was 80 caches in 6 hours for about 8 miles or more.

 

so you were not the FTF maybe next time

[+Runnystrong]

If you weren't the first signature on the log, you weren't FTF.

 

Even if they were idiots and driving where they shouldn't or logging caches they didn't find.

I saw that issue before. FTF beat STF by about one minute. STF had parked at the closest legal parking spot and walked to GZ. FTF parked closer to GZ in a no-parking zone. STF called FTF a cheater.

 

 

I agree with

The Incredables" This all sounds like a bad case of "Sour Grapes" if you open the log and you are not the first signature Game over you are not FTF. If it bothers you enough to post about a situation like this then maybe you need to avoid going after FTFs cause it bothers you to much that you are STF. Maybe find another part of Geocaching that is enjoyable.