Event Guidelines Changes & Hoosier Reviewer's Summary Of Them

[+JL_HSTRE]

I have a few questions regarding the Event Guidelines changes and a summary of said changes posted by Hoosier Reviewer (which is circulating on Facebook beyond Indiana).

 

1) Hoosier Reviewer says "People are not required to purchase anything, or pay for admittance into a venue to log an event." but I don't see equivilent wording in the Event Guidelines. What is the official wording i.e. does it specifically commercial venues? Because the way Hoosier Reviewer's post is worded it could imply an event could not be held in a state park with an admission fee.

 

2) Hoosier Reviewer says "As a general reminder, people are NOT required to stay the entire listed time. Even if someone shows up at the posted event time / location and leaves 5 minutes later, they can log the event as attended."

 

Common sense should quickly make it clear why this rule exists, but it also seems a bit open-ended. What's to stop someone from showing up at a CITO for five minutes and doing no work then leaving? Seems like an easy undeserved smiley for the number hungry types yet within the Guidelines.

 

3) Hoosier Reviewer says "If you’re wanting to sell items at an event, only geocaching.com items/trackables can be mentioned on the event page itself." The Event Guidelines say "Event listings may request donations or charge a fee to cover legitimate costs of the event" and "Listings may include a link to a non-commercial event landing page."

 

How does this apply to things like an event raffle or poker run as an optional part of a larger event? What about selling shirts, pathtags, or other event-specific swag that is not trackable on geocaching.com?

 

4) Event Guidelines say "A list of sponsors, without logos or URLs, may be on an event listing." Is that a new loosening of the Commercial Guidelines for Events?

 

Thanks for those who can help bring clarity to these issues.

[+CacheDrone]

I can't speak for how your reviewer addresses it so check with them. How I've handled it, based on guidance I've been given, is that an admission charge for a non-profit location like a state park is considered acceptable. This differs from a location that is a business, like Walt Disney World for example.

 

CD

[Keystone]

3) Hoosier Reviewer says "If you’re wanting to sell items at an event, only geocaching.com items/trackables can be mentioned on the event page itself." The Event Guidelines say "Event listings may request donations or charge a fee to cover legitimate costs of the event" and "Listings may include a link to a non-commercial event landing page."

 

How does this apply to things like an event raffle or poker run as an optional part of a larger event? What about selling shirts, pathtags, or other event-specific swag that is not trackable on geocaching.com?

 

4) Event Guidelines say "A list of sponsors, without logos or URLs, may be on an event listing." Is that a new loosening of the Commercial Guidelines for Events?

Nothing much new here. Just clearer language, right in the Guidelines. To the extent that people think any of this is new, then there are now fewer "hidden guidelines." That is a good thing.

 

I would encourage everyone to read the entire article linked in the OP. Then, feel free to ask any additional questions, like Joshism did.

[+palmetto]

The commercial rules now in the revised guideline have been around for some time.

Thanks to Keystone for posting the link to the announcement of them in these forums of them in 2008.

 

like an event raffle or poker run as an optional part of a larger event?

 

optional = okay (I've occasionally ask for a modest re-write of an event listing that was all about the poker run, asked the host for some info about the GATHERING for those cachers who aren't poker running. An event is a gathering of geocachers.

 

What about selling shirts, pathtags, or other event-specific swag that is not trackable on geocaching.com?

 

Those items go on the non-commercial event landing page ----> "Non-commercial" here means that the page itself should not be a business page, or feature non-event advertising; header on that page is not "The Business" with links built into the margins for "The Business Products and Services".

 

Hosts who don't wish to/cannot create such a page can ask cachers to email them, and/or put information on their Geocaching.com profile page.

 

Hoosier Reviewer says "As a general reminder, people are NOT required to stay the entire listed time

.....showing up at a CITO for five minutes and doing no work then leaving?

 

This guideline revision speaks to Meet and Greets, not CITO. For Meet and Greets, drop in = attended.

 

If you host a CITO and a cacher passes through, says "hi", leaves without doing any work, then posts attended, can you delete that and be backed by Groundspeak? yes, no, maybe. I'm betting it doesn't actually happen much. I doubt if any guideline will address this.

 

The changes in this guideline are:

event end time,

events are at the posted coords, not secret locations or requiring puzzle solving to find,

submit as ONE listing activities that are near in space and time, intended for the same general audience.

 

The guideline used to encourage a separate listing for separate activities.

[cezanne]

The changes in this guideline are:

event end time,

events are at the posted coords, not secret locations or requiring puzzle solving to find,

 

I have been aware of those changes, but need to admit that I'm not fully happy with them.

It appears to me that it becomes harder and harder to have an event which is not just sitting around and eating.

 

My personal preferred type of event is where one goes for a hike (not a cache hunt!) together and

considerable parts of the conversation take place during the hike. Of course the group might also

visit in between or at the end a place to get eat or drink something there, but that's often spontaneous and

not planned in the manner from time A to time B we are in the restaurant X and the hike will take Y hours.

 

I strictly prefer to have conversations while walking around and being out in the nature to sitting around in a restaurant.

 

Except for allowing cheap attended logs for all events, I cannot see any advantage in putting up so many restrictions

for events.

 

In my opinion, a hike of the above mentioned type which is not used for a group cache hunt and which has a specified starting location

and a meeting time really should suffice. Of course one could go for the hike outside of what is listed as even on gc.com and then

have the sitting around in the restaurant as the official event. In such a case I might feel very bad as I might not want to attend the restaurant part

while not ending up with the feeling that my attended log is not deserved.

 

Cezanne

[+palmetto]

My player account has never posted a restaurant event. I've posted a number hiking or paddling Meet and Greets. I don't find this guideline change difficult at all.

 

The event can now be the time frame of the gathering to start the hike, or the entire hike, or a stop along the way. Allowing some to come in from a different direction.

 

My last event was a trail stop for food. People came in by different routes. Some were primitive camping in the area. Most came in as single hiking group. Some who came in from a different direction then joined the group hike for a bit after.

 

I was a tad late to my own event ;-) but did make the bulk of the time frame.

[cezanne]

My player account has never posted a restaurant event. I've posted a number hiking or paddling Meet and Greets. I don't find this guideline change difficult at all.

 

The event can now be the time frame of the gathering to start the hike, or the entire hike, or a stop along the way. Allowing some to come in from a different direction.

 

I guess my mind is too formal for the language used by some people at Groundspeak. I interpret it the way it is written there while others come up with what does not meet my understanding of those terms but is certainly more flexible. So as a event host e.g. I would now feel to obliged to stay until 10 pm even if all other guests left already at 9 pm for some reason (maybe they went for watching an important soccer game or whatever) if the cache listing happened to mention 10 pm as end time due to the obligation to provide an end time.

 

Some years ago the normal event took a few hours. Now I encounter many events that are announced to take 10 minutes or even less officially and then there is the option to stay longer. Providing such 10 minute frames will always be easy for an organisor, but I'm not happy with this approach.

 

As the entire hike is regarded, there are local reviewers which are not allowing such hikes as events any longer. The hike can take place, but the official event has to be a restaurant event with a given time frame. I'm not blaming them, even less at the new guidelines also make me believe that events (the official part) have to take place at a fixed location while when hiking or paddling one moves from A to B.

[+JL_HSTRE]

For a hike or kayak just give an estimate on mileage and hike/paddle time. I for one would be reluctant to attend such an event without knowing such information.

[+CanadianRockies]

So as a event host e.g. I would now feel to obliged to stay until 10 pm even if all other guests left already at 9 pm for some reason (maybe they went for watching an important soccer game or whatever) if the cache listing happened to mention 10 pm as end time due to the obligation to provide an end time.

Personally, I support having an end time listed for events. If your event starts at 8 p.m. but I can't make it until 8:30 p.m., then it's nice to know there likely will still be people hanging around to talk to. No guarantee, of course, but it's good to have some idea of how late I probably can show up. Having an end time listed likely will reduce the number of times people show up after the start time and are disappointed that the event ended sooner than they expected.

 

The tradeoff, as you noted, is that some hosts might feel obligated to stay until the posted end time (although the guidelines don't require this). Of course, such hosts could reduce this self-imposed burden by listing a shorter event (e.g., 8-9 p.m. instead of 8-10 p.m.), even if they likely will stick around longer.

 

As the entire hike is regarded, there are local reviewers which are not allowing such hikes as events any longer. The hike can take place, but the official event has to be a restaurant event with a given time frame.

I'm surprised any reviewer actually requires the official event has to be at a restaurant rather than, say, a gathering at the trailhead. My guess is that if the event organizer appealed the restaurant requirement to Groundspeak, then Groundspeak would support a trailhead gathering as an alternative.

[cezanne]

Personally, I support having an end time listed for events. If your event starts at 8 p.m. but I can't make it until 8:30 p.m., then it's nice to know there likely will still be people hanging around to talk to. No guarantee, of course, but it's good to have some idea of how late I probably can show up. Having an end time listed likely will reduce the number of times people show up after the start time and are disappointed that the event ended sooner than they expected.

 

I typically show up later than at the provided beginning time. This never has been a problem, but recently more and more really short events show up and apart from other influences this might also be influenced by the required start and end time and other related changes.

 

Even if at a later time still participants are present, I would not want to log an attended log if I come outside of the official time period between provided start and end time even if that period is very short (30 minutes or less).

 

Also providing an end date makes most people plan to leave earlier than they would have left without the provided end time.

 

I agree that the changes are helpful for some cachers but I do not belong to this group but that fits into the general pictures of changes at gc.com among which hardly any are favourable for me.

 

Cezanne

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Also providing an end date makes most people plan to leave earlier than they would have left without the provided end time.

 

I'll have to disagree with you on that. My annual Beer & Wing night is always listed as "5-7pm (at least)". We always have a pretty good crowd stay until 9pm+, and a small group of us usually stay until closing time (12 midnight).

 

[edit: typo]

Edited January 30, 2014 by BBWolf+3Pigs

[+K13]

Here is the text from an event that just published near me. Is the purpose to meet & eat, or to FTF caches?

 

Geocache Description:

Come and get your grub on. After a hard days work or play, let's gather and visit over some food.. We can hopefully go out caching together afterwards and grab some FTFs. Here's hoping the Xzzzzzz Crew will be able to deliver some fun caches.

 

Located at Xzzzzz's Dairy Queen on HWY XXX. Each person responsible for their own meals and drinks. 12:00 pm start time.

 

Additional Hints (No hints available.)

 

[+Ambrosia]

I'll echo what palmetto said. My husband and I just hosted a river rafting event (our 6th one). Everyone met in the parking lot, got geared up, floated down the river, took out, and went home. Events like this are fine. The event was pretty much the float. I gave a rough estimate of how long the trip was, and non-floaters could see us before and after the float (though I don't think we had any).

 

Also, we ask for donations because equipment, guides and fees can add up. We briefly mention this on the event page. We then link to the local Groundspeak forum (NW forums), where we have a thread that discusses greater details like what sort of donation we are asking for, etc.

[cezanne]

Also providing an end date makes most people plan to leave earlier than they would have left without the provided end time.

 

I'll have to disagree with you on that. My annual Beer & Wing night is always listed as "5-7pm (at least)". We always have a pretty good crowd stay until 9pm+, and a small group of us usually stay until closing time (12 midnight).

 

I should have mentioned that I only have my area in mind. There it has been completely uncommon to mention an end time.

I cannot obviously make any comment about other regions.

 

 

Cezanne

[+CanadianRockies]

Also providing an end date makes most people plan to leave earlier than they would have left without the provided end time.

I'll have to disagree with you on that. My annual Beer & Wing night is always listed as "5-7pm (at least)". We always have a pretty good crowd stay until 9pm+, and a small group of us usually stay until closing time (12 midnight).

I should have mentioned that I only have my area in mind. There it has been completely uncommon to mention an end time.

I guess it's the rarity of these events that allowed you to speak to most of the people who attended them and discuss why they left earlier than they would have if the end time hadn't been listed.

 

Perhaps, with such a small sample size, you might be surprised about what effect it will have when all your area events list end times.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Also providing an end date makes most people plan to leave earlier than they would have left without the provided end time.

 

I'll have to disagree with you on that. My annual Beer & Wing night is always listed as "5-7pm (at least)". We always have a pretty good crowd stay until 9pm+, and a small group of us usually stay until closing time (12 midnight).

 

I should have mentioned that I only have my area in mind. There it has been completely uncommon to mention an end time.

I cannot obviously make any comment about other regions.

 

Cezanne

 

I am not disagreeing with you on listing an end time. I am disagreeing on your thoughts that by listing an end time you will have people leave early.

Edited January 30, 2014 by BBWolf+3Pigs

[cezanne]

I am not disagreeing with you on listing an end time. I am disagreeing on your thoughts that by listing an end time you will have people leave early.

 

I got that, but I still think that in my area a listed end time leads to the result that a considerable number of people will leave earlier than they would have left without this end time (not everyone of course). With the announced end time several of them will make other plans in the belief that the event will have ended anyway.

 

I think however that the tradition also plays a role. If end times are nothing new in some area, then there hardly would be an effect.

 

 

Cezanne

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I would now feel to obliged to stay until 10 pm even if all other guests left already at 9 pm for some reason

I would state on my event page "I expect the event to go until at least 10pm unless everyone leaves earlier".

 

As the entire hike is regarded, there are local reviewers which are not allowing such hikes as events any longer. The hike can take place, but the official event has to be a restaurant event with a given time frame. I'm not blaming them, even less at the new guidelines also make me believe that events (the official part) have to take place at a fixed location while when hiking or paddling one moves from A to B.

I would state on my event page "We will meet at 9am at the posted cords for coffee, danish and lively conversation. Around 9:30 we will depart to take in the sights of the 8km Pickaname Trail and hopefully wrap things up around 2:00pm."

[Clan Riffster]

submit as ONE listing activities that are near in space and time, intended for the same general audience.

I would love some clarification on this part. Has The Lily Pad come up with an approximate distance and / or time betwixt events? For instance, if one cacher creates an event on April 1st, at 9:00am, in Tallahassee, and another cacher creates an event on April 1st, at 10:00, in Miami, there likely won't be an issue regarding event stacking. But if the proximity betwixt those two events were, say, 529', I'm betting there would be an issue.

 

Somewhere, there is a line.

 

I'd like to know where.

 

Specifically, for mega events like Florida Finders Fest, it has been common on Friday to hold several events, generally, in the morning, till around 4;00pm, a Jeep run and a kayak paddle, on opposite ends of the forest, then, around 5:00pm, a chili cook off, at the primary event site, which lasts about an hour, then, around 9:00pm, the night gauntlet and AFDB contest, held about 2 miles from the primary event site.

 

Will these five activities need to be written up on one event page?

 

How many miles need to separate the activities to give them individual event pages?

 

Thanx for your consideration!

[+-CJ-]

events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event

 

Who wrote this and for what reason?

 

Does the author of this text believe that there must be no more that one event in Moscow in one day? In the centre of Moscow city? In Moscow region? What if one event is at 11am and the other is at 4pm - are they "near the same time" or not?

 

It's said clearly: "(Events) are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers". What is "audience" then? Let's say, there are two events to celebrate some holiday, one in a park (family/kids/dogs friendly), another in a pub in the evening. Are these "audiences" different enough to organize two different events? What if 90% of attendees appear to be adults with no kids/dogs - does this fact make two audience "the same"? What if John organizes a walk around the city centre and Paul thinks about spending all the event in a cafe - do their intentions (two different types of activity) mean they have different audiences to hold two separate events - or not?

 

Last year we organized several events around here. There's a funny guy here who's not easy to communicate to. He used to avoid our meetings but to publish his own events within 24 hours after he sees our events on the website. If Groundspeak offers a souvenir for any event being attended at any particular day chances are 100% that he will double our event with his own small meeting. (Even if his event involves only him and his family). Frankly, I don't care. As it is said in the guidelines, events "facilitate the social aspect of geocaching". If someone ignores this social aspect it's between him and maybe our local reviewer but this behaviour should not influence our meetings in any way. With the new guidelines I may be in situation when there's an event already published on some particular day and its owner doesn't wish to communicate/negotiate on any matters; at the same time I'm not allowed to publish another event "near the same time or location".

 

Replace "should be" with "are advised to be". The mandatory wording creates a series of vague conditions and may lead to awkward situations when it's really not needed by anyone.

Edited January 31, 2014 by -CJ-

[+briansnat]

Who wrote this and for what reason?

 

Does the author of this text believe that there must be no more that one event in Moscow in one day? In the centre of Moscow city? In Moscow region? What if one event is at 11am and the other is at 4pm - are they "near the same time" or not?

 

Though I wasn't the author of the text, I was involved in the guideline discussion and the intent was to end the event stacking trend that was turning events into just another smiley collecting opportunity and losing the social focus. So I don't think the author believes there shouldn't be more than one event in a city, or region on one day.

 

It's said clearly: "(Events) are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers". What is "audience" then? Let's say, there are two events to celebrate some holiday, one in a park (family/kids/dogs friendly), another in a pub in the evening. Are these "audiences" different enough to organize two different events? What if 90% of attendees appear to be adults with no kids/dogs - does this fact make two audience "the same"?

 

The two events in your example target different general audiences so I think most reviewers would be fine with this. What is trying to be avoided are cachers going to location A for an hour and calling it event, then everyone heading a short distance to locaction B and calling it another event and so on.

 

As Keystone pointed out there really is nothing new here. It's just putting into writing some of the "hidden guidelines" that many reviewers already enforced - and some didn't. It's bringing some consistency.

Edited January 31, 2014 by briansnat

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

The two events in your example target different general audiences so I think most reviewers would be fine with this. What is trying to be avoided are cachers going to location A for an hour and calling it event, then everyone heading a short distance to locaction B and calling it another event and so on.

 

What about mega-events, which seem to spawn any number of ancillary events before and after the "main event".

[+wimseyguy]

I would think the Thursday and Friday night meet n greets that pop up before most Saturday megas will still be fine.

The 1 minute flash mob at the welcome to megaeventland sign during the mega is not likely to be published with this refinement of the guideline, nor do I think they ever should have been published in the past.

Anything else between these two extremes will be a judgement call by the reviewers.

[Keystone]

The "stacked events" concept has been in the Guidelines for a long time, but the prior wording was easily misunderstood. The new wording is clearer.

 

Regarding Mega Events, it's best to use concrete examples. Like Wimseyguy said -- and he goes to a lot of Megas -- there is a discretionary element involved so it's hard to articulate bright line rules like "528 feet apart" or "one hour apart."

 

Here is my real life example. There was a Mega Event that had a full day's worth of scheduled activities on the official event calendar, from breakfast through late-night party. Someone -- not affiliated with the organizing group for the Mega -- submitted a flash mob event AT the Mega venue and DURING the scheduled calendar of Mega activities. The reviewers said "no" under the stacked events guideline. The flash mob organizer resubmitted the event at an entirely different site about a mile and half away. That version was published.

 

I think that the wishes and the calendar activities of the Mega Event organizers are a relevant factor in determining which "satellite events" are appropriate around a Mega.

[Clan Riffster]

Anything else between these two extremes will be a judgement call by the reviewers.

Agreed. In Florida, we are blessed with some truly awesome Reviewers. What I would like to see, even if it's nothing more than their own interpretation, is where the line is drawn? I don't question the need for a line, but before I start creating event pages, I'd like some guidance on where the line is. The Florida Finders Fest example given earlier comes to mind. Obviously, any event, posted over the four day period, could be seen to target the same audience, given a strict interpretation. So that leaves proximity and time as the measurable scales.

 

How far apart is far enough, for events hosted on the same day?

[+clydesdale115]

I am concerned about the "event stacking" limitation myself.

 

Events mean GEOCACHERS! With all the efforts by Groundspeak recently to attract new geocachers (particularly, the Geo-Intro-App), why would they not want geocachers to get together (for WHATEVER reason)? We hold events in our area regularly - newbies come all the time. That means new cachers and new revenue potential for GS.

 

Why do they care how many smileys we get? What is the difference in releasing 25 caches in one day all along a hiking trail, versus having 3 caching events in one day to bring folks to your area? Isn't a smiley a smiley?

 

(A local FB group posted earlier this week that their lunch event was turned down because someone else had already posted a breakfast event in the same area.)

 

When there are weekend MEGA events, how are they going to make "exceptions" to their own rule? Breakfast gathering, followed by CITO in the morning, followed by BBQ at lunch, followed by meet-and-greet dinner event? Oooooppps, no-no-no, that doesn't meet the new guideline about having several events in an area. Are they going to leave it to the reviewers to decide what's okay and what's not?

 

If EVENTS are legitimate caches, why limit the number we can get (or host)? There is no end-game in geocaching ... cachers can get as few or as many smileys as they wish.

 

In our local area, we love to have multi-events. It brings people to our area. They spend their time and their money in our town, and that earns our geocaching group favor with local leaders. Additionally, when our state geo-group holds their monthly event in an area, they love to ask a local group to host a supplemental event. Attendance is raised for both/all events. A rising tide lifts all ships. Events mean GEOCACHERS. Period.

Edited January 31, 2014 by clydesdale115

[Keystone]

Oooooppps, no-no-no, that doesn't meet the new guideline about having several events in an area.

Once again, the Guideline isn't new.

 

What are you asking for? The ability to have a Flash Mob at 10:00 then move one block and have another one at 10:15 with its own event listing? 'Cause yeah, people try that.

[+briansnat]

Events mean GEOCACHERS! With all the efforts by Groundspeak recently to attract new geocachers (particularly, the Geo-Intro-App), why would they not want geocachers to get together (for WHATEVER reason)? We hold events in our area regularly - newbies come all the time. That means new cachers and new revenue potential for GS.

 

Where in the new guidelines does it discourage geocachers from getting together?

[Clan Riffster]

Events mean GEOCACHERS! With all the efforts by Groundspeak recently to attract new geocachers (particularly, the Geo-Intro-App), why would they not want geocachers to get together (for WHATEVER reason)? We hold events in our area regularly - newbies come all the time. That means new cachers and new revenue potential for GS.

 

Where in the new guidelines does it discourage geocachers from getting together?

I don't think it does. Though, with the clarification of the existing guideline there might be folks who are scratching their heads in confusion. Reading a Faceybook thread similar to the one Clydesdale mentioned, (might be the same one?), I see some folks wondering about possibly conflicting motivations being expressed by Groundspeak. They see this guideline clarification as an attempt to limit smilies gained by attending multiple events in the same area and time frame. Yet, by relaxing / removing the guideline prohibiting power trails, Groundspeak seems to be endorceing the accumulation of smilies.

 

The two different guidelines seem to have contrary goals.

 

As a Reviewer, how far apart would you say is okay for events on the same day?

[Clan Riffster]

Oooooppps, no-no-no, that doesn't meet the new guideline about having several events in an area.

Once again, the Guideline isn't new.

 

What are you asking for? The ability to have a Flash Mob at 10:00 then move one block and have another one at 10:15 with its own event listing? 'Cause yeah, people try that.

An event power trail?

< Shudders... >

[+briansnat]

Events mean GEOCACHERS! With all the efforts by Groundspeak recently to attract new geocachers (particularly, the Geo-Intro-App), why would they not want geocachers to get together (for WHATEVER reason)? We hold events in our area regularly - newbies come all the time. That means new cachers and new revenue potential for GS.

 

Where in the new guidelines does it discourage geocachers from getting together?

I don't think it does. Though, with the clarification of the existing guideline there might be folks who are scratching their heads in confusion. Reading a Faceybook thread similar to the one Clydesdale mentioned, (might be the same one?), I see some folks wondering about possibly conflicting motivations being expressed by Groundspeak. They see this guideline clarification as an attempt to limit smilies gained by attending multiple events in the same area and time frame. Yet, by relaxing / removing the guideline prohibiting power trails, Groundspeak seems to be endorceing the accumulation of smilies.

 

The two different guidelines seem to have contrary goals.

 

 

I don't believe the power trail guideline was relaxed to facilitate the numbers game. That was an unintended consequence of trying to deal with a thoroughly confusing, highly subjective and extremely unpopular guideline. Perhaps TPTB didn't want to see events go down the same road and become simply another numbers collecting farce.

 

As a Reviewer, how far apart would you say is okay for events on the same day?

 

Distance would not be the only factor so I couldn't answer this question without knowing specifics.

 

 

An event power trail?

< Shudders... >

Precisely the sort of thing the guideline update was meant to prevent.

Edited January 31, 2014 by briansnat

[Clan Riffster]

As a Reviewer, how far apart would you say is okay for events on the same day?

 

Distance would not be the only factor so I couldn't answer this question without knowing specifics.

Granted, given the fairly subjective nature of the clarified guidelines, I realize that there is no catch all answer regarding event proximity. I'm just looking for a general idea, before I start typing up event pages. For instance, around the tail end of October, in the Ocala National Forest, there is a four day gathering known as Florida Finders Fest. There is a central site, where cabins are, and where tents can be set up.

 

Typically, there will be a hot dog eat & greet on Thursday afternoon, at the central site

 

Then, Friday morning kicks off with a couple events which occur at about the same time frame, a Jeep run and a kayak paddle. At a guess, I'd say there was about 10-20 miles between these two. Both are about 10 miles from the central site. Around 5:00pm Friday, there is a chili cook off at the central site. Around 9:00pm Friday there is a night gauntlet event / AFDB contest about 3 miles from the central site. These used to be two separate events, but they were combined into one due to the stacking guideline.

 

On Saturday there is the main event, Florida Finders Fest, at the central site.

 

On Sunday there is a CITO of the central site.

 

If this occurred within your Reviewer area, what changes would need to be made?

[+CanadianRockies]

On Sunday there is a CITO of the central site.

You might want to check out this web page:

 

As a side note, CITO events will not be published immediately before or after an event (or vice versa), at or near that main event location. For example, cleaning up after a picnic event in a park is a normal and expected activity, and should not be a separate CITO event at that location. CITO events should stand on their own.

[Clan Riffster]

On Sunday there is a CITO of the central site.

You might want to check out this web page:

 

As a side note, CITO events will not be published immediately before or after an event (or vice versa), at or near that main event location. For example, cleaning up after a picnic event in a park is a normal and expected activity, and should not be a separate CITO event at that location. CITO events should stand on their own.

Would 24 hours later really qualify as "immediately"?

[Keystone]

Yes.

[+JL_HSTRE]

On Sunday there is a CITO of the central site.

 

Actually, there hasn't been a CITO during the years I've been attending (FFF7-FFF9).

 

There should be a CITO elsewhere in the ONF (because hunters trash the place), but I'm told there's issues getting the bags of garbage picked up...

 

Friday morning kicks off with a couple events which occur at about the same time frame, a Jeep run and a kayak paddle. At a guess, I'd say there was about 10-20 miles between these two. Both are about 10 miles from the central site. Around 5:00pm Friday, there is a chili cook off at the central site. Around 9:00pm Friday there is a night gauntlet event / AFDB contest about 3 miles from the central site. These used to be two separate events, but they were combined into one due to the stacking guideline.

 

For all the many non-FL folks and Reviewers, let me share links to the events Riffster is talking about.

 

First off, Florida Finders Fest is a mega held in Ocala National Forest in central Florida. The internet tells me the forest covers 673 square miles.

 

This year there were 4 events on FFF9 Friday:

Jeep Event - http://coord.info/GC4PXB0

Kayak Event - http://coord.info/GC4GX94

Chili Cookoff - http://coord.info/GC4NHYT

Night Gauntlet & AFDB Contest - http://coord.info/GC4MARA

 

Due to the equipment-limiting nature of the morning events (needing a 4WD jeep or a kayak/canoe) as well as the distance between then (pretty much opposite sides of the forest) I think both of those can stand alone.

 

The main question to me is whether the Chili Cookout and Night Gauntlet would be able to remain separate after the latest Event Guidelines tweaking.

 

The FFF9 main event - http://coord.info/GC49X3T - encompasses a number of subevents - Gauntlet, Poker Run, dinner, raffle, vendors - which are fairly typical event things which I think we can all agree are should remain part of a single event listing.

 

However, there was a Fallen Stars night event after FFF9 - http://coord.info/GC4PB5C - which has been the case each year I've attended (FFF7-FFF9). Whether this event can continue to stand alone on its own merit is the other big question I would ask.

 

Now that we've some concrete event cache pages to work with hopefully some of the Reviewers can chime with their opinions on whether these events could still all remain separate listings and which ones they feel would need to be combined (or moved farther apart in time and/or mileage) under the new Event Guidelines.

[+briansnat]

On Sunday there is a CITO of the central site.

You might want to check out this web page:

 

As a side note, CITO events will not be published immediately before or after an event (or vice versa), at or near that main event location. For example, cleaning up after a picnic event in a park is a normal and expected activity, and should not be a separate CITO event at that location. CITO events should stand on their own.

Would 24 hours later really qualify as "immediately"?

 

My question would be, is the point of the CITO to clean up our own mess, or provide a community service? If the latter then I think it would be fine, because the point of a CITO is community service. If there is a mass of geocachers in the area, I see nothing wrong with harnessing them to provide the service. A CITO is different enough, I think, that it could stand on its own merits.

 

Cleaning up after ourselves isn't a community service, it's an obligation. We shouldn't have to earn a smiley to get us to clean up our own mess, and if things have gotten to that point it's a sad commentary on the course geocaching has taken.

Edited February 1, 2014 by briansnat

[+niraD]

My question would be, is the point of the CITO to clean up our own mess, or provide a community service? If the latter then I think it would be fine, because the point of a CITO is community service. If there is a mass of geocachers in the area, I see nothing wrong with harnessing them to provide the service.

If the event site needs cleaning, then maybe the CITO event should come before the main event. Then after the main event, the organizers and any volunteers could "clean up our own mess" to restore the site to the post-CITO condition.

 

Or maybe the CITO event could be somewhere other than the main event site, in which case it is more obvious that the CITO event stands on its own.

 

FWIW, there was a recent CITO day around here, with a series of CITO events at various parks and open spaces, all scheduled to enable people to attend all the CITO events if they wanted. IIRC, there was also a breakfast/coffee TB/GC swap event before the first CITO, and a lunchtime meet-and-greet event between the last morning CITO and the first afternoon CITO. It seemed a little odd to me, but really no worse than the multiple CITO events that are scheduled around Earth Day each year.

[+briansnat]

...Here is my real life example. There was a Mega Event that had a full day's worth of scheduled activities on the official event calendar, from breakfast through late-night party. Someone -- not affiliated with the organizing group for the Mega -- submitted a flash mob event AT the Mega venue and DURING the scheduled calendar of Mega activities. The reviewers said "no" under the stacked events guideline. The flash mob organizer resubmitted the event at an entirely different site about a mile and half away. That version was published...

 

 

At Geowoodstock 8 (I think) there was an event on the grounds that commenced immediately upon the conclusion of Geowoodstock. It hosted by a couple celebrating their wedding anniversary. At the conclusion of Geowoodstock hundreds of people immediately lined up to "attend" this event. Several logbooks were passed down the line and most people on line signed the logbook and left without even meeting the hosts. At the time I thought it was a blatant example of event stacking and the antithesis of what an event should be about. Even for those who greeted the couple it was little more than a reception line. "Hi, happy anniversary", "bye", but most people didn't even bother with that formality. They were there for their bonus smiley. I know the host couple thoroughly enjoyed it, but to me it was one of the worst examples of event stacking I had witnessed to that point. I logged the event because once everyone got their smiley and left, my wife and I walked over and spent significant time hanging out with the very nice couple and chatting with them. I couldn't help but wonder why this was published as an event though, because for most it was just a smiley collecting exercise.

 

I think the enhanced guidelines are meant to keep the focus on socializing and prevent events from becoming little more than another way to rack up a bunch of smileys.

Edited February 1, 2014 by briansnat

[+OReviewer]

Granted, given the fairly subjective nature of the clarified guidelines, I realize that there is no catch all answer regarding event proximity. I'm just looking for a general idea, before I start typing up event pages. For instance, around the tail end of October, in the Ocala National Forest, there is a four day gathering known as Florida Finders Fest. There is a central site, where cabins are, and where tents can be set up.

 

Typically, there will be a hot dog eat & greet on Thursday afternoon, at the central site

 

Then, Friday morning kicks off with a couple events which occur at about the same time frame, a Jeep run and a kayak paddle. At a guess, I'd say there was about 10-20 miles between these two. Both are about 10 miles from the central site. Around 5:00pm Friday, there is a chili cook off at the central site. Around 9:00pm Friday there is a night gauntlet event / AFDB contest about 3 miles from the central site. These used to be two separate events, but they were combined into one due to the stacking guideline.

 

On Saturday there is the main event, Florida Finders Fest, at the central site.

 

On Sunday there is a CITO of the central site.

 

If this occurred within your Reviewer area, what changes would need to be made?

If it were in one of the regions I review, it sounds like 4 events; 1 per day.

[Clan Riffster]

submit as ONE listing activities that are near in space and time, intended for the same general audience.

Another thing I'm wondering about.

 

With the Florida Finders Fest events, it could be said that all of them are intended for the same general audience. We've heard from Keystone that, in his territory, one day is not sufficient time for a CITO held at the same location as an event. He interprets "immediately" to include a time frame of 24 hours, in this instance. What about non CITO events? Should the entirety of Florida Finders Fest be put onto one cache page, with a list of the various activities, and which day/time/location each will be? Or maybe 3 event pages, one each for Thursday, Friday & Saturday?

 

Other than the usual noisemakers, who complain about everything, I think the geocaching community would be okay with either interpretation, but we'd like some guidance on which interpretation is prevalent amongst our Reviewers, so we can plan accordingly. It would be inconvenient to type up 9 or 10 event pages, only to have them rejected under the clarified guideline. Personally, I'd like to have this information ahead of time.

[Clan Riffster]

If it were in one of the regions I review, it sounds like 4 events; 1 per day.

Thanx!

[+briansnat]

My question would be, is the point of the CITO to clean up our own mess, or provide a community service? If the latter then I think it would be fine, because the point of a CITO is community service. If there is a mass of geocachers in the area, I see nothing wrong with harnessing them to provide the service.

If the event site needs cleaning, then maybe the CITO event should come before the main event. Then after the main event, the organizers and any volunteers could "clean up our own mess" to restore the site to the post-CITO condition.

 

Or maybe the CITO event could be somewhere other than the main event site, in which case it is more obvious that the CITO event stands on its own.

 

FWIW, there was a recent CITO day around here, with a series of CITO events at various parks and open spaces, all scheduled to enable people to attend all the CITO events if they wanted. IIRC, there was also a breakfast/coffee TB/GC swap event before the first CITO, and a lunchtime meet-and-greet event between the last morning CITO and the first afternoon CITO. It seemed a little odd to me, but really no worse than the multiple CITO events that are scheduled around Earth Day each year.

 

I don't think preparing a site for an event warrants a CITO any more than cleaning up. If the CITO is at another location then I think that certainly would help the case that it stand on its own merits. As far as the example you provided about stacked CITOs I can't comment without being there, but I think CITOs should about more than meeting for a few minutes to pick up a few bottles. Again, do we really need a smiley every time we pick up a bottle?

[+OReviewer]

If it were in one of the regions I review, it sounds like 4 events; 1 per day.

Thanx!

There is definitely flexibility in my mind on it, but it would have to really show that there is some intent that they aren't just for another smile.

 

(Generic) You do a breakfast event right before a cito and they both reference each other, it isn't going to fly. (If you don't reference them, it probably won't fly either)

 

If you're, (again, generic), running a breakfast in one area; and it doesn't appear to be placed for the CITO; there is a chance.

 

It really is one of those "you know it when you see it" guidelines. The issues is the more you put into writing on distances and times requirements, the more people will try to make events fill those rules. By not having them, there is some flexibility based on the scenario.

 

My template for this has some other good information (and much of the wording stolen from others):

The intent of a geocaching event is to have geocachers gather, have fun, perhaps share some trackable items, perhaps have refreshments or a picnic, and of course to collect an "attended" smiley.

 

Having the same group go from place to place to place, multiple events in a day, is not at all within the expectations of a geocaching event. Traveling a significant distance to a second or a third event on the same day might be OK if the events are in different towns and stand on their own merits as geocaching events. But somewhere after the first event there is a line, which when crossed, changes the experience from a geocaching event to an attended log collection exercise.

 

We believe the social part of geocaching is very important and we encourage geocaching events. Attended log collection exercises are not at all within the scope of geocaching events.

[Mr.Yuck]

Oooooppps, no-no-no, that doesn't meet the new guideline about having several events in an area.

Once again, the Guideline isn't new.

 

What are you asking for? The ability to have a Flash Mob at 10:00 then move one block and have another one at 10:15 with its own event listing? 'Cause yeah, people try that.

 

I take it this means there will never be a "24 hours of Dirtbagging" Part Duex?

[+briansnat]

Granted, given the fairly subjective nature of the clarified guidelines, I realize that there is no catch all answer regarding event proximity. I'm just looking for a general idea, before I start typing up event pages. For instance, around the tail end of October, in the Ocala National Forest, there is a four day gathering known as Florida Finders Fest. There is a central site, where cabins are, and where tents can be set up.

 

Typically, there will be a hot dog eat & greet on Thursday afternoon, at the central site

 

Then, Friday morning kicks off with a couple events which occur at about the same time frame, a Jeep run and a kayak paddle. At a guess, I'd say there was about 10-20 miles between these two. Both are about 10 miles from the central site. Around 5:00pm Friday, there is a chili cook off at the central site. Around 9:00pm Friday there is a night gauntlet event / AFDB contest about 3 miles from the central site. These used to be two separate events, but they were combined into one due to the stacking guideline.

 

On Saturday there is the main event, Florida Finders Fest, at the central site.

 

On Sunday there is a CITO of the central site.

 

If this occurred within your Reviewer area, what changes would need to be made?

If it were in one of the regions I review, it sounds like 4 events; 1 per day.

 

I concur, however if the Jeep run and kayak paddle were simultaneous then maybe they would be fine. It's a lot like many guidelines that if you understand the reasoning then you can figure things out for yourself. No digging? But what if... Know the reason behind the guideline then the "what ifs" are gone.

 

The point behind the guideline enhancement is, from what I understand, to prevent events from becoming little more than smiley collecting exercises and keep the focus on bringing geocachers together.

 

So ask yourself this question. Is the event I'm creating meant to meant to appeal to a largely different element than a nearby event on the same day, or am I bringing the same general group of people from one event to the next? If you can answer no to the latter then you probably are good to go.

 

As an example I recall an ice cream social and a hiking event in the same area on the same day with overlapping times. It would be possible for one person to attend both due to overlapping times, but in the end I think there was one person who actually attended both. They were intended for different audiences and I see these as being fine.

 

Change that to two events where the same general audience will move from one event to the next, then you are getting into "event stacking" and that should be an issue. It was an unwritten guideline that was unevenly enforced. Now it is an official guideline.

[Clan Riffster]

A huge "Thank You!" to Brian & ORegiewer for their input.

I don't doubt some folks will try pushing the envelope.

By clarifying the guideline, the envelope is harder to push.

[+-CJ-]

The guidelines introduced new vague terms as reasons for decision making. (What is "near the same time"? What is "near the same location"? What is "for the same audience"?) The fact that these terms are attempted to being explained here and not hyperlinked to any articles of the Help center is another proof that these terms are unclear and subject to interpretation. Saying that "this limitation isn't new" is another proof that it has been around for a while so there was enough time to introduce these limitations properly on the website.

 

Each time I'm told that "your local reviewer will decide what the guidelines mean in your case" the written guidelines loose some points in my opinion. Frankly, this is no problem for me as a geocacher. We Russians have lived in a country with such attitude to legislation for decades. The problem is for me as a promoter of the game in my region since the guidelines that I've used as a basic educational material have lost part of their strength.

 

We have no problem of so-called "stacked events" around here. Someone decided that the guidelines should be restricted in this part and said that this "enhancement" wasn't new: it had rested in his head and had been implemented by some reviewers whom he knew. It's difficult to explain all this to my fellow geocachers, really. It's easier to say: "They invented some guidelines at Groundspeak for their needs. Don't pay much attention, better rely on our reviewer". We currently have great reviewer, BTW. I hope he stays as long as possible with us.

[Keystone]

The language limiting "stacked events" was present in the prior version of the guidelines. We reviewers have relied upon it for years. If readers did not appreciate the meaning of the prior language -- particularly those in countries where English is not the primary language -- then it's good that the new, clearer language has replaced the prior version.

 

Old version of "Stacked Events" guideline language:

For caching events with several elements, multiple event listings may be submitted if each element stands on its own merits as an event, and meets the listing guidelines.

New version:

Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities.

[+niraD]

I don't think preparing a site for an event warrants a CITO any more than cleaning up.

I wouldn't expect the site of an event to require CITO either. My thought was that if the site did require cleaning up beyond "cleaning up our own mess", then it would require cleaning up before the event. In that case, scheduling the CITO before the event makes it clear that the site requires CITO, and that the CITO is not just "cleaning up our own mess".

 

As far as the example you provided about stacked CITOs I can't comment without being there, but I think CITOs should about more than meeting for a few minutes to pick up a few bottles.

I didn't attend any of the events that day, but it looked like they were planning to spend a good 1.5 to 2 hours at each location. If so, then that's longer than most people spent cleaning up at the standalone CITO events I've attended.