Ordinary Cache Won't Be Published. Too close to an invisible Premium Cache.

[Vorbosh]

Use received word from the reviewer that our new ordinary cache will not be published because it is too close to a Premium cache (400ft). Checking on the map, these guys are invisible to me since I'm not a premium member.

 

The family worked very hard on the cache and would like to make it accessible for all to enjoy. Is there another website we could log it on?

[+wimseyguy]

Yes there are other websites. Did you want anyone to find the cache? Those other sites don't get very much traffic. Might be better to move it 130' so it meets the guidelines and work with your reviewer to get it published here.

You can always click the 'show all nearest caches' link on your page. It won't show you the coords of those PM caches, but will provide bearing and distance.

[jholly]

Use received word from the reviewer that our new ordinary cache will not be published because it is too close to a Premium cache (400ft). Checking on the map, these guys are invisible to me since I'm not a premium member.

 

The family worked very hard on the cache and would like to make it accessible for all to enjoy. Is there another website we could log it on?

 

I understand your frustration. There are other sites, but in reality listing the cache there is like throwing it in the trash can. The other sites have little to no activity. But before you give up read this knowledge book article on checking for cache saturation. Even though your not a premium member following those steps in the article will allow you to steer around the premium member caches. But please note, with puzzle caches and multi-caches even premium members can have difficulty. Some reviewers are very helpful in this circumstance, while a note to the CO might also prove to be very helpful. Please reconsider and publish your cache.

[+JesandTodd]

It wouldn't be allowed if it were 400ft to close to a basic cache either.

[4wheelin_fool]

Ordinary puzzle caches and multis are much more difficult to avoid, as premium caches may not show up on maps, but they do show up in a list when you look for nearest caches. If you did that, you would see it 400' away, but a puzzle would not show up.

[+Manville Possum]

It wouldn't be allowed if it were 400ft to close to a basic cache either.

There are other geocache listing services that would allow it.

[+T.D.M.22]

Use received word from the reviewer that our new ordinary cache will not be published because it is too close to a Premium cache (400ft). Checking on the map, these guys are invisible to me since I'm not a premium member.

 

The family worked very hard on the cache and would like to make it accessible for all to enjoy. Is there another website we could log it on?

 

This is exactly why you should check the location before you do a lot of work on the cache.

 

Anyway you would still have the same problem with puzzles caches-and so do premium members. All of his information is available in the forums and on the website.

 

As for your last sentence- Sure there are other websites. But if you want a lot of people to find it, then this is the website to be at.

[Pup Patrol]

The family worked very hard on the cache and would like to make it accessible for all to enjoy. Is there another website we could log it on?

 

This is like posting on a GM forum "where can I buy a Ford?".

 

If you had followed the Guidelines before hiding a cache, or attempted to communicate with your Groundspeak reviewer, you might find a solution to getting it published by Groundspeak.

 

On the other hand, you could do some pretty basic internet research to find the other cache listing websites, go through all the folderol to get it listed on one or more of them.

 

Why should Groundspeak provide you with a platform for finding other cache listing sites?

 

 

B,

Edited January 5, 2014 by Pup Patrol

[+L0ne.R]

Use received word from the reviewer that our new ordinary cache will not be published because it is too close to a Premium cache (400ft). Checking on the map, these guys are invisible to me since I'm not a premium member.

 

The family worked very hard on the cache and would like to make it accessible for all to enjoy. Is there another website we could log it on?

 

There really needs to be an initial cache coordinate check submission form before someone gets to continue creating their cache listing. Too many people learn a hard lesson by putting too much time into a cache that can't be published.

[+Calypso62]

I have found the following method to save a lot of time and frustration in getting my cache hides published.

 

Before I go to the trouble of making a fabulous container and camouflage, creating elaborate cache descriptions, placing my wonderful hide then submitting it for review only to find it can't be published because it's too close to a waypoint for a multi or mystery or whatever, I have a look at the maps to see if there are any other caches in close proximity to where I want to place the cache. I then create a page on Geocaching.com with the cache name of "Coordinate Check". I place the coordinates of where I want to place my hide in the appropriate section on the cache page, then submit it for review with a Reviewer Note saying "This cache is not ready for publication. Would you mind checking to see if my selected location is acceptable. Thanks." Add any other information that is pertinent to your location in this reviewer note. The reviewer can see a lot more information than we can. They can even see the location of unpublished caches by other players. After a period of time, you will get a response saying the location is acceptable or not.

 

If the location is acceptable, go ahead and prepare your hide. Edit you cache page as appropriate, particularly the cache name, then submit it again for review once the cache container is placed and you're ready for it to be published.

 

If the location is not acceptable, then you haven't wasted all that time, effort and money in a project that will ultimately be rejected, for that location.

 

I was chatting with my local reviewer at a recent event and he was more than happy for this process to occur.

 

This method won't help you for this cache hide, but it may save pulling your hair out for future hides.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Hiding a cache can be frustrating. You have several options:

 

1) You can email your reviewer before you place your cache and ask if the coordinates are OK. They will not be able to disclose any specific coordinates, but they can tell you if proximity is OK.

 

2) You can work with an experienced premium-member in your community who would be willing to help you find a spot.

 

3) You could buy a premium membership.

[+BlackRose67]

There really needs to be an initial cache coordinate check submission form before someone gets to continue creating their cache listing.

That would certainly help.

 

When I want to hide a new cache, I fill out the cache submission form and indicate "coord check" in the cache title.

I indicate in the reviewer note that the cache is not placed, I am simply checking to see if the location is available.

 

I did one like this this evening for a night cache multi that will be published in about 4 months from now, if the spot is available.

[Mr.Yuck]

It wouldn't be allowed if it were 400ft to close to a basic cache either.

There are other geocache listing services that would allow it.

 

Not that I'm affiliated with such a site or anything.

 

This complaint comes up a lot lately around here. I agree with what the Lone R said about a cache coordinate check submission form. Despite all the "advice" given out in this thread, and the several similar ones of late (all after the fact, I might note), your average basic member is going to be totally blindsided by their cache being rejected for being too close to a PMO.

[+gpsblake]

There really needs to be an initial cache coordinate check submission form before someone gets to continue creating their cache listing. Too many people learn a hard lesson by putting too much time into a cache that can't be published.

 

The only problem I see with that is hard to decode mystery caches that could be nearby and people woule use a "check submission form" as a hack to find those difficult puzzle caches.

 

Example: Someone uses it and discovers a Diff 4.5 unknown puzzle cache is 245 feet to the Northwest, thus giving away a location.

 

The current system isn't perfect but it's good enough.

[+Tassie_Boy]

There really needs to be an initial cache coordinate check submission form before someone gets to continue creating their cache listing. Too many people learn a hard lesson by putting too much time into a cache that can't be published.

 

The only problem I see with that is hard to decode mystery caches that could be nearby and people woule use a "check submission form" as a hack to find those difficult puzzle caches.

 

Example: Someone uses it and discovers a Diff 4.5 unknown puzzle cache is 245 feet to the Northwest, thus giving away a location.

 

The current system isn't perfect but it's good enough.

 

Wouldn't need to give bearings and distances, just and yes this spot is clear or no it's not.

[^up]

I've gotten caught by the proximity bit too and feel your pain. Not knowing the nature of the cache, is the spot so significant that another 120 or so feet makes a big difference. Mine aren't so special so I just adjusted. But I also create the cache page before I even visit the area (unless I found a neat spot while I was out). Once the cache page is created (with some ball park coordinates) you can do the "find nearest caches" and the list will include ALL caches with distances. Solves the whole proximity issue fast.

[+-CJ-]

There really needs to be an initial cache coordinate check submission form before someone gets to continue creating their cache listing. Too many people learn a hard lesson by putting too much time into a cache that can't be published.

 

Great idea.

[jholly]

There really needs to be an initial cache coordinate check submission form before someone gets to continue creating their cache listing. Too many people learn a hard lesson by putting too much time into a cache that can't be published.

 

The only problem I see with that is hard to decode mystery caches that could be nearby and people woule use a "check submission form" as a hack to find those difficult puzzle caches.

 

Example: Someone uses it and discovers a Diff 4.5 unknown puzzle cache is 245 feet to the Northwest, thus giving away a location.

 

The current system isn't perfect but it's good enough.

 

Ah, I guess you never heard about the epic battleship battle that Keystone fought and won. Seems some cachers in his review area was battleshipping the location of this difficult puzzle cache. The game ended when he approved a cache that was well under the 528 foot limit and completely blew their calculations. Probably also sent a game over missive.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Use received word from the reviewer that our new ordinary cache will not be published because it is too close to a Premium cache (400ft). Checking on the map, these guys are invisible to me since I'm not a premium member.

 

The family worked very hard on the cache and would like to make it accessible for all to enjoy. Is there another website we could log it on?

 

There really needs to be an initial cache coordinate check submission form before someone gets to continue creating their cache listing. Too many people learn a hard lesson by putting too much time into a cache that can't be published.

 

I've suggested something like this when the "new" multi-page cache submission page was created. I'd make it a two stop verification process. On the first page of the form a user would enter the coordinates. The coordinates would be used to do a proximity check for any existing caches within 528 feet, and would inform the submitter that the coordinates were too close to an existing cache if it found any cache (PMO or not) which was within 528'. The submission process would stop at that point. The second test would be to check if the entered coordinates were within 2 miles of other cache types. If the coordinates were within 2 miles of a multi, unknown, or letterbox hybrid (where the container might not be at the published coordinates) a *warning* message which indicates that there *might* be another cache within 528' would be issued, but the submission process would still continue. It would still be up the the submitter to check for cache saturation (the warning page could provide a link to the help page on cache saturation) and to comply with other guidelines.

 

I know this would not catch all unknown caches (many were published before the withing 2 miles guideline was created) nor very long multi caches, but I think it would reduce the number of instances where time and energy has been spent creating a cache only to discover that there are proximity issues. More importantly, catching submissions with coordinates with proximity issues would reduce that amount of reviewer time spent rejecting caches that can't be published because the reviewer would never see the submission.

 

 

[+ChileHead]

This complaint comes up a lot lately around here. I agree with what the Lone R said about a cache coordinate check submission form. Despite all the "advice" given out in this thread, and the several similar ones of late (all after the fact, I might note), your average basic member is going to be totally blindsided by their cache being rejected for being too close to a PMO.

 

The information to do a basic coordinate check is already available to all users, PMO or otherwise. It will let you know if you are too close to traditionals, or starts of other caches - even if they are PMO caches.

 

What the "show nearest caches" won't show you is:

- proximity problems with intermediate stages of puzzles/multis

- proximity problems with caches that are still works-in-progress, but have priority over your own due to the fact they have a lower GC# or have already been ok'd by the reviewer

 

It's not ideal, and hopefully GS will reorganize the existing functionality a bit to put this more "in your face" before you check off saying to submit for review. Though I'm sure they can't put in any check for intermediate waypoints to prevent coordinate games being played to find finals of other caches. Sure, you could do something with limiting the number of checks per day, or using fuzzy logic to throw in random values on each check.

[+ChileHead]

But if you want a lot of people anybody to find it, then this is the website to be at.

 

Fixed it.

[+ChileHead]

Wouldn't need to give bearings and distances, just and yes this spot is clear or no it's not.

 

Just knowing it's clear gives me enough information to play battleship. You don't need the bearing and distance (though it makes it easier.)

[+NJSquirrel]

Ordinary puzzle caches and multis are much more difficult to avoid, as premium caches may not show up on maps, but they do show up in a list when you look for nearest caches. If you did that, you would see it 400' away, but a puzzle would not show up.

 

Yeah, I've been wanting to place some caches in a nearby park but of course their are 3 puzzles and 2 multis I haven't done yet. Once this cold spell snaps I intend to finish them off.

[+WarNinjas]

You could publish it on another site and see the ones of ones who actually find it.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

Has anyone found the invisible premium cache yet? That's gotta be a tough one to find.

[+OZ2CPU]

you know you can change the HOME cords, and then perform the search again..

then you can figure out exactly where it is, for free :-)

[I!]

you know you can change the HOME cords, and then perform the search again..

then you can figure out exactly where it is, for free :-)

This works for the published coordinates, but won't give you the hidden final coords.

[+_Sway_]

Respectfully, with only 19 finds and a headache on your first "hide" attempt, perhaps you should get a few more finds under your belt before trying to hide caches.

I haven't been playing long and yes, I REALLY want to hide my own cache but, I just keep logging finds and entertain myself thinking up cool cache ideas. Someday soon I will be ready to hide one.

And I honestly don't know why you wouldn't get a premium membership before hiding a cache.

 

Just my .02

Edited January 8, 2014 by Sway_xx

[+tony_the_bald_eagle]

I feel your pain.

 

It's fantastic that you want to hide a geocache & keep making the game fun... there's a great feeling when reading logs of others in the community that appreciate finding a cache, especially when there is a reason to travel to a special spot.

 

As other members have said, it's not just premium member caches that create this issue, puzzles & multis are frustrating too, especially if you don't enjoy these different caching experiences.

 

Having been rejected for cache saturation recently, I found out the puzzle cache preventing my cache being published had a starting point over 4kms away! I don't like the idea of having to complete every puzzle & multi within a 5km radius to work out if I can place a cache in a certain spot, so the idea of a pre-approval can save much effort.

 

I hope you can find a suitable spot for your cache & keep the fun going.

[+TheHarleyRebel]

I would move it as other sites are very unactive.

[Mr.Yuck]

I would move it as other sites are very unactive.

 

People should note, the thread was created just under 2 months ago, and the OP never responded a 2nd time. Nor have they had nay caches published in that time, so they apparently did not move it. Someone just bumped the tread today. Not exactly a Zombie thread, but the OP is never going to see your replies either.

[+Manville Possum]

I would move it as other sites are very unactive.

 

People should note, the thread was created just under 2 months ago, and the OP never responded a 2nd time. Nor have they had nay caches published in that time, so they apparently did not move it. Someone just bumped the tread today. Not exactly a Zombie thread, but the OP is never going to see your replies either.

I looked at the OP's profile when this thread was started, I suspected a sock account because of it's age.

On a side note. When I scout a location, I enter the basic coordinates to see if there is another cache in the area, I can also check published Waymarks this way. My account is PM, if it were basic and I entered the coordinates would it not still give me the distance to the next cache, PM or basic?

[+Ambrosia]

I would move it as other sites are very unactive.

 

People should note, the thread was created just under 2 months ago, and the OP never responded a 2nd time. Nor have they had nay caches published in that time, so they apparently did not move it. Someone just bumped the tread today. Not exactly a Zombie thread, but the OP is never going to see your replies either.

I looked at the OP's profile when this thread was started, I suspected a sock account because of it's age.

On a side note. When I scout a location, I enter the basic coordinates to see if there is another cache in the area, I can also check published Waymarks this way. My account is PM, if it were basic and I entered the coordinates would it not still give me the distance to the next cache, PM or basic?

If you click on nearest caches from your cache listing, you can see the pm cache name/distance. If you're not a pm, however, you can't see the info on the pm cache page.

[+Manville Possum]

I would move it as other sites are very unactive.

 

People should note, the thread was created just under 2 months ago, and the OP never responded a 2nd time. Nor have they had nay caches published in that time, so they apparently did not move it. Someone just bumped the tread today. Not exactly a Zombie thread, but the OP is never going to see your replies either.

I looked at the OP's profile when this thread was started, I suspected a sock account because of it's age.

On a side note. When I scout a location, I enter the basic coordinates to see if there is another cache in the area, I can also check published Waymarks this way. My account is PM, if it were basic and I entered the coordinates would it not still give me the distance to the next cache, PM or basic?

If you click on nearest caches from your cache listing, you can see the pm cache name/distance. If you're not a pm, however, you can't see the info on the pm cache page.

I thought so, but was not sure. I learned a long time ago to check the area first before submitting a cache to my reviewer. I think it was her that suggested this to me.

[+edscott]

The family worked very hard on the cache and would like to make it accessible for all to enjoy. Is there another website we could log it on?

 

This is like posting on a GM forum "where can I buy a Ford?

B,

 

More like where can I buy a Citroën.

[+CCFwasG]

I feel your pain.

 

It's fantastic that you want to hide a geocache & keep making the game fun... there's a great feeling when reading logs of others in the community that appreciate finding a cache, especially when there is a reason to travel to a special spot.

 

As other members have said, it's not just premium member caches that create this issue, puzzles & multis are frustrating too, especially if you don't enjoy these different caching experiences.

 

Having been rejected for cache saturation recently, I found out the puzzle cache preventing my cache being published had a starting point over 4kms away! I don't like the idea of having to complete every puzzle & multi within a 5km radius to work out if I can place a cache in a certain spot, so the idea of a pre-approval can save much effort.

 

I hope you can find a suitable spot for your cache & keep the fun going.

 

Thanks for this post! Appreciating the friendly replies on this topic (and don't quite get some of the previous snarky ones... thought we were here for fun?!). Came to the topic because we have a similar issue placing our first cache. We are now premium but we too hadn't seen a nearby premium when we checked. That's not our biggest issue however.

 

We understand the "cache saturation" issue. Our new cache would be on a mountain that has lots of trails and roads, so numerous caches might be close in distance on a map but not at all close to actually get to. For example, a cache near where we'd like to locate is 300 feet away. However it is up a steep ravine and to get to it you would need to drive, and then hike, over 1000 feet. (i.e. no one could possibly go after both caches within minutes of each other)

 

YES we could move it but that's why we came here: to ask if there are ever exceptions made. Certainly we understand the reviewer can interpret the "rules" verbatim if they so choose. The reason we hoped for an "exception" is because the cache is placed at a spot that has very special meaning for us. We explained it to the reviewer, but they ignored that information entirely and told us it was rejected for being too near another cache.

 

Thoughts welcome, not re: rules please, but regarding potential exceptions. (First post, hoping for lack of flames...)

 

FWIW we also considered having the coordinates elsewhere and then adding a puzzle to find our location, but if we understand this (and other) answers correctly, that won't help either?

[team tisri]

There really needs to be an initial cache coordinate check submission form before someone gets to continue creating their cache listing. Too many people learn a hard lesson by putting too much time into a cache that can't be published.

 

The only problem I see with that is hard to decode mystery caches that could be nearby and people woule use a "check submission form" as a hack to find those difficult puzzle caches.

 

Example: Someone uses it and discovers a Diff 4.5 unknown puzzle cache is 245 feet to the Northwest, thus giving away a location.

 

The current system isn't perfect but it's good enough.

 

But they wouldn't discoer it was a Diff 4.5 unknown puzzle cache, all they would know was that there was a physical stage to a cache 250 feet northwest. That gives enough information to give them a sense of how far they need to move it without giving enough to figure which cache is nearby, or whether it's the final stage or one of many intermediate stages.

 

It's not as if the reviewer knows whether your cache is really in place or not, so if people really wanted to use this approach to play battleships with the cache I don't imagine they'd get very many goes at it before the reviewer figured out what they were up to.

[+niraD]

FWIW we also considered having the coordinates elsewhere and then adding a puzzle to find our location, but if we understand this (and other) answers correctly, that won't help either?

Right. For puzzle caches, bogus posted coordinates don't matter. Only the location of the physical cache matters.

 

Or more generally, only physical stages matter. That means final locations for containers, plus anything else that the cache owner places: metal tags with coordinates or other info on them, intermediate stages with coordinates or clues in a container, physical puzzles, etc.

 

The only way to include the original location (which is too close to an existing cache), is to make it a virtual stage. Generally this is done by using existing objects (plaques, monuments, public art, words on signs, words on manhole covers, etc.). The cache description tells seekers to get the next location from those existing objects. For example, here is a multi-cache with 15 virtual "question to answer" stages: GC1EM3H

[+palmetto]

Hello The_Goldies, niraD is correct, it might be possible to design a cache to bring cachers to your listing coords with a simple off-set multi-cache, if you can use something there to generate number for coords for a physical cache elsewhere. This is usually easiest if there's some man made object with text or numbers, or simple parts (posts, planks something) to count. The entire area is cache dense along the trails, so you may yet have trouble coming up with a spot for a physical cache.

 

Here's an example of cache of this type, numbers from a grave marker, used to generate coordinates for a cache outside the cemetery - http://coord.info/GCVW0K

 

Thoughts welcome, not re: rules please, but regarding potential exceptions.

 

My thoughts are that there is no potential here for an exception. Sorry, I know that's not what you came for.

Edited March 4, 2014 by palmetto

[+T.D.M.22]

 

Thanks for this post! Appreciating the friendly replies on this topic (and don't quite get some of the previous snarky ones... thought we were here for fun?!). Came to the topic because we have a similar issue placing our first cache. We are now premium but we too hadn't seen a nearby premium when we checked. That's not our biggest issue however.

 

We understand the "cache saturation" issue. Our new cache would be on a mountain that has lots of trails and roads, so numerous caches might be close in distance on a map but not at all close to actually get to. For example, a cache near where we'd like to locate is 300 feet away. However it is up a steep ravine and to get to it you would need to drive, and then hike, over 1000 feet. (i.e. no one could possibly go after both caches within minutes of each other)

 

YES we could move it but that's why we came here: to ask if there are ever exceptions made. Certainly we understand the reviewer can interpret the "rules" verbatim if they so choose. The reason we hoped for an "exception" is because the cache is placed at a spot that has very special meaning for us. We explained it to the reviewer, but they ignored that information entirely and told us it was rejected for being too near another cache.

 

Thoughts welcome, not re: rules please, but regarding potential exceptions. (First post, hoping for lack of flames...)

 

FWIW we also considered having the coordinates elsewhere and then adding a puzzle to find our location, but if we understand this (and other) answers correctly, that won't help either?

 

FLAME FLAME FLAME

 

Honestly the saturation applies to physical stages. It doesn't matter if there is an icon on the map or not. As for the posted location, you could have 10 mysteries stacked on top of each other on the map, but they are miles apart in reality. Well you probably would have to offset them so cachers can click on each icon, but you get the point.

 

As for exceptions, yes there have been exceptions. It won't hurt to ask, but expect a no. You said 300 feet, that's 130+/- feet to close. If it was only 5, or 10 feet too close, I'd expect an exception in that situation. 20 feet-50 feet, I think is the most you can hope for.

Edited March 4, 2014 by T.D.M.22

[+CCFwasG]

Many thanks for the replies! We had started thinking we might be able to/need to turn it into a puzzle cache, and appreciate your clarifications nirad.

 

My thoughts are that there is no potential here for an exception. Sorry, I know that's not what you came for.

 

Thanks palmetto, that is very helpful, and actually is the reason we came here... honest answers are always useful! (We therefore won't appeal!) Cheers

 

T.D.M.22... lol about the flames... but we'd love to take that explanation a step further (just for more clarification). Is the saturation issue just simply a plots on the map thing? i.e. we mentioned the nearest cache is very close as the crow flies (too close, obviously) but very far as a cachers-trying-to-get-to each place. It's perfectly okay if the issue is more "map" saturation than "cache-able" saturation, but we're just curious.

 

Which brings up a new query (again it's generally clear but not 100%, and we need to ask because the reviewer on this seems very strict, rather than helpful). At this stage we are thinking we'd start the cache at the special spot and then have a puzzle stop or two. There are plenty of signs around we can use to get puzzle numbers/answers. Can our cache "location" be the puzzle start, and be 300' from a physical cache? Your answer sounds like that's a yes. Beyond that, the one thing we are most worried about is that the area is really saturated (palmetto has looked we think?)... so we might actually have trouble getting ANY place to put it within the allotted area (guidelines suggest 1-2 miles, on the mountain that limits it a lot).

 

Thanks again all - this is a super helpful forum!

Edited March 5, 2014 by The_Goldies

[+T.D.M.22]

I'm thinking you're not getting the saturation thing. It's not what it looks like on the map, but what is really there. Actually what is placed there.

 

Don't worry about what it looks like on the map. Take a small city park for example. If I have a cache in the park, you couldn't place one there because it would be too close. You can't place a Traditional, Multi, mystery, or any other cache there. But if you have a puzzle, and you want to send people to the park that is possible- maybe they need to count the slides and divide that by the benches to get the co-ords to the final location. That is OK because you didn't place those slides-they are not considered physical stages.

 

Now for that mystery cache, you could have the icon in the park, because, the cache is not there. For mystery caches the icon can be anywhere, in the park, in the middle of a road, on top of a building. Sometimes it's for humorous effect, sometimes it's random co-ords, but it's OK because the cache it not really there.

 

So if there is a bench or something at that location you want you could make the puzzle something like "The final co-ords are 50.01 123, and 110.00 XXX Go to the location and find the bench. Count the boards and multiply that by 3. That will be the final part of the co-ords."

[+CCFwasG]

Thanks T.D.M.22 for the speedy answer! Yup, that's as we thought. Problem is, we'd seen conflicting answers around here... so we just wanted to be sure. (Not wanting to make assumptions and garner more ire from that reviewer we'll be dealing with...!) Cheers!