No pen

January 3, 2014

I'm in the USCG and for today's PT we were aloud to go and do whatever we wanted as long as we were moving. Some friends and I went for a walk downtown and we were close to some caches that I knew were nearby. I talked to my friends about caching and they were onboard. Problem was none of us had a pen or pencil. We found the two caches and I logged them as found on my iPhone app and took a pic of me with it just in case as proof of find.

What are your thoughts? Is that ok on special occasions? If you have the opportunity to go back to it and sign it should you?

My thinking is if you found a cache when you weren't prepared to, you found it. I want to ensure that the rules are kept and that the integrity of myself and the game are satisfied.

3.7k · January 3, 2014

I'm in the USCG and for today's PT we were aloud to go and do whatever we wanted as long as we were moving. Some friends and I went for a walk downtown and we were close to some caches that I knew were nearby. I talked to my friends about caching and they were onboard. Problem was none of us had a pen or pencil. We found the two caches and I logged them as found on my iPhone app and took a pic of me with it just in case as proof of find.

What are your thoughts? Is that ok on special occasions? If you have the opportunity to go back to it and sign it should you?

My thinking is if you found a cache when you weren't prepared to, you found it. I want to ensure that the rules are kept and that the integrity of myself and the game are satisfied.

The few times that has happened to me, I generally do what you did...but also either try to mark the log in some way or go back another day to sign it.

January 3, 2014

I think you're supposed to sign the log sheet to claim the find, but I've seen the "photo" also used in it's replacement. I Think the CO could not allow the smiley but I never have on my caches and I've never heard of anyone doing so.

I made a find of a cache that was frozen in place and I couldn't sign it, but it was in my area so I went back and signed it later.

One fun thing about this game is there really aren't to many solid RULES, so many people play it the way the want. So keep getting out ther and having some geo-fun Lazybathers.

Love the name

2.6k · January 3, 2014

There have been a few occasions when I have forgotten or lost my pen. When I find the cache I take a photo of the cache in situ. When I log the find I fess up on not having a pen and let the CO know I have pics if they want them for confirmation. I have never been asked for the pics and I've never had a log deleted. I will generally keep the pics for about a month.

2.6k · January 3, 2014

You'll find a few purists who insist no sig = no find. If it were my cache, and you explained in your log that you didn't have a pen (especially if you had a pic to back it up), I'd let the log stand.

The no sig logs I don't like are the ones where "I saw the cache, but I couldn't reach it, so I'm claiming the find". No, in those cases it's obvious that reaching the cache was part of the challenge (it's up a tree, for example), and you didn't meet the challenge. No find. Likewise if it's some sort of puzzle container where opening the container, via a combination lock or whatever, is the challenge, then again, you found the container but didn't complete the challenge (getting it open), then no find.

If, however, you couldn't open the container because it's rusted/frozen shut or something like that, well, that's not your fault and wasn't meant to be part of the challenge. I'd let that log stand as well.

Opinions vary, but that's my take on it.

January 3, 2014

I did find them and open them up to inspect the log and show my muggle friends how it's "supposed" to work. I agree with the comments thus far too. Complete the challenge to the point where it can't go any further, explain it, pic it, log it. (Careful with spoilers though)

January 3, 2014

I have lost my pen before and just took a pic, we did the same this weekend for a full log we couldn't sign anywhere. It isn't the same as there is, can't get it, but sure can see it kinda log. If you can hold it, open it, it should be good

6.5k · January 3, 2014

The ultimate decision is that of the cache owner, and no amount of agreement in here will change that.

On the rare occasions that I've been at a find without a pen I have managed to scratch my initials or at least a W on the log with a twig and leaf, and often take a picture as well. I've never had a CO delete a log for that.

2.4k · January 3, 2014

I did that once. I took a pic of the log itself, figuring the signatures that WERE there could be verified as being that cache, so I had the log in my hand and would have signed it if I could. Chief301's post is also my opinion on the matter, and better put than I could have written.

January 3, 2014

One time we forgot a pen, and there wasn't one in the cache. We found a campfire pit nearby, and used a branch covered with ash to write our name!

2.6k · January 3, 2014

One time we forgot a pen, and there wasn't one in the cache. We found a campfire pit nearby, and used a branch covered with ash to write our name!

Yeah, I forgot about that stuff. I've used muddy thumb prints and signed in blood (from bushwahcking scratches), mud, branch sap, etc.

3.1k · January 3, 2014

The ultimate decision is that of the cache owner, and no amount of agreement in here will change that.

On the rare occasions that I've been at a find without a pen I have managed to scratch my initials or at least a W on the log with a twig and leaf, and often take a picture as well. I've never had a CO delete a log for that.

One time we forgot a pen, and there wasn't one in the cache. We found a campfire pit nearby, and used a branch covered with ash to write our name!

I have used these methods to sign when a pen wouldn't write, or I forgot a writing utensil. Save for one surly cache owner, I haven't had any issues with using that method. I've also emailed oweners to explain, and have made efforts to get back and resign with a "proper" writing tool those that I am able.

Stamps, pens, pencils, crayons, charcoal, paint, etc can all be used to leave your mark on the logbook. I've even seen white crayon used on white paper.

6.1k · January 3, 2014

In an urban environment look around for a used match, there will be enough carbon on the end to initial the log.

In the country, a stick dipped in mud/soil , or use a squashed berry, or find a tree/rock with some moss to rub the stick in.

When using the above methods I then tend to photograph the signature and post that with my online log, as these can fade over time and it would serve as proof if anyone queried the log (which has never happened to me).

January 3, 2014

Yeah, I forgot about that stuff. I've used muddy thumb prints and signed in blood (from bushwahcking scratches), mud, branch sap, etc.

Alright, if I went to that cache after you, I'd be genuinely creeped out!

2.6k · January 3, 2014

Yeah, I forgot about that stuff. I've used muddy thumb prints and signed in blood (from bushwahcking scratches), mud, branch sap, etc.

Alright, if I went to that cache after you, I'd be genuinely creeped out!

:laughing: It's more common to see around here than you would think.

January 4, 2014

I have found a few and forgot my pen, When I logged it online I exppained that I forgot a pen to sign and was planning on going back to sign the log at a later date. So far no deleted logs. On my own cache, if I suspect an armchair cacher then I will go through the physical log name by name against the digital log. When I do my maintance check, I will count the number of names on the log, make a mark with the number then check that number against the page tally. Using my smartphone or tablet makes it easy to check on site since I am rarely outside of cell coverage.

Now that I got my caching Maxpedition bag, I need to get a stamp or something else to sign the logs with. Though as long as I grab the bag, I should never be without a pen again. LOL.

3.3k · January 4, 2014

One time we forgot a pen, and there wasn't one in the cache. We found a campfire pit nearby, and used a branch covered with ash to write our name!

Better than the photo is a physical mark on the log - be creative. I used my fingernail against a blade of grass, & mentioned that in the log.

3.3k · January 4, 2014

Yeah, I forgot about that stuff. I've used muddy thumb prints and signed in blood (from bushwahcking scratches), mud, branch sap, etc.

Alright, if I went to that cache after you, I'd be genuinely creeped out!

It's more common to see around here than you would think.

The signing-in-blood technique has another advantage - if there's a dispute, the Reviewer could order DNA testing.

2.4k · January 4, 2014

If it were my cache, I would let the log stand as you provided a photo. On a planned caching trip, I have many pens in bag and pockets....just in case!

3.4k · January 4, 2014

On one of my caches, when someone used the "forgot my pen" excuse, I emailed him and told him he could have used the pencil that was in the cache. I then asked him to delete his find until he went back and actually signed it. He didn't delete the find but he did go back and sign it. Btw I would not have deleted his log. I did delete a Found log once when someone posted "I found where the cache was supposed to be but it wasn't there so I wrote my name on a piece of paper and stuck it in the hole." Actually the cache was right where it was supposed to be, they just didn't see it.

January 4, 2014

It's pretty presumptuous to say "I found where it's SUPPOSED to be". It's not supposed to be where it's supposed to be, if that makes sence. That's exactly why I took a clear pic of me holding it as proof of find. While searching out close by caches I read a log that said looked but could find but there was a smiley attached to it.

It's annoying but in my opinion not worth the added stress to verify and then contact the ones that don't add up. The primary responsibility is on the cacher.

January 4, 2014

No pen - no log - no smiley. And that's not because I'm a "purist". It's a community game with a set of really simple rules. If one makes an exclusion for himself it's an obvious example for others to make exclusions for themselves. Many people won't see much difference between this or that situation. Some other guy will provide a photolog because it's too high for him to climb that tree or the snow is too deep, or the container is closed tightly, or it wasn't in a place where "it was supposed to be", there are thousands of very special cases, each one explained individually.

Anyway, it's not the matter of life and death. If I forgot my pen/pencil the only lesson is that I wasn't prepared for my hunt. No smiley at the cache, well, the world won't break into pieces. Next time I'll be more accurate.

The ultimate decision is that of the cache owner, and no amount of agreement in here will change that.

I won't disturb the cache owner. It's not his responsibility that I forgot my pen

2.6k · January 4, 2014

It's pretty presumptuous to say "I found where it's SUPPOSED to be". It's not supposed to be where it's supposed to be, if that makes sence. That's exactly why I took a clear pic of me holding it as proof of find. While searching out close by caches I read a log that said looked but could find but there was a smiley attached to it.

It's annoying but in my opinion not worth the added stress to verify and then contact the ones that don't add up. The primary responsibility is on the cacher.

Yeah, I don't stress out over reconciling paper logs with online logs. If you say you found it I believe you. If you say you DIDN'T find it and logged a find anyway (never had it happen in one of my caches), I'd delete that. On the contrary, a couple of times I've been doing maintenance on one of my caches and found sigs on the paper logs that hadn't even logged online.

Only once have I had to delete a bogus log, from a guy who created an account one day and then logged finds in most of the US states and several other countries on the same day. Mine just happened to be one of them.

7.5k · January 4, 2014

You'll find a few purists who insist no sig = no find. If it were my cache, and you explained in your log that you didn't have a pen (especially if you had a pic to back it up), I'd let the log stand.

The no sig logs I don't like are the ones where "I saw the cache, but I couldn't reach it, so I'm claiming the find". No, in those cases it's obvious that reaching the cache was part of the challenge (it's up a tree, for example), and you didn't meet the challenge. No find. Likewise if it's some sort of puzzle container where opening the container, via a combination lock or whatever, is the challenge, then again, you found the container but didn't complete the challenge (getting it open), then no find.

If, however, you couldn't open the container because it's rusted/frozen shut or something like that, well, that's not your fault and wasn't meant to be part of the challenge. I'd let that log stand as well.

Opinions vary, but that's my take on it.

I'm of the same opinion, both as a finder and a cache owner.

The belief that the logbook/sheet must be signed or it's not a find, can be a detriment. As a cache owner I would much rather someone log their find and take a photo (although I have never asked for photo confirmation) then chip out a cache that's stuck in ice. Just recently we got this comment from a finder "...able to bash the ice to dislodge the cache. Contents are dry...for now." I blame myself partially, It's in a tall stump, forgot to use the 'Not Available in Winter' attribute. Although, this cache has never had an ice problem in 7 years but we recently had a severe ice storm. The cache is 'temporarily disabled' until I can get out there this month to replace the Lock & Lock ™ and the listing now has a 'not available in winter' attribute, just to be on the safe side.

Edited January 5, 2014 by L0ne.R

3.1k · January 4, 2014

You'll find a few purists who insist no sig = no find. If it were my cache, and you explained in your log that you didn't have a pen (especially if you had a pic to back it up), I'd let the log stand.

The no sig logs I don't like are the ones where "I saw the cache, but I couldn't reach it, so I'm claiming the find". No, in those cases it's obvious that reaching the cache was part of the challenge (it's up a tree, for example), and you didn't meet the challenge. No find. Likewise if it's some sort of puzzle container where opening the container, via a combination lock or whatever, is the challenge, then again, you found the container but didn't complete the challenge (getting it open), then no find.

If, however, you couldn't open the container because it's rusted/frozen shut or something like that, well, that's not your fault and wasn't meant to be part of the challenge. I'd let that log stand as well.

Opinions vary, but that's my take on it.

I'm of the same opinion, both as a finder and a cache owner.

The belief that the logbook/sheet must be signed or it's not a find, can be a detriment. As a cache owner I would much rather someone log their find and take a photo (although I have never asked for photo confirmation) then chip out a cache that's stuck in ice. Just recently we got this comment from a finder "...able to bash the ice to dislodge the cache. Contents are dry...for now." I blame myself partially, It's in a tall stump, forgot to use the 'Not Available in Winter' attribute. Although, this cache has never had an ice problem in 7 years but we recently had a severe ice storm. The cache is 'temporarily disabled' until I can get out there this month to replace the Lock & Lock &8482; and the listing now has a 'not available in winter' attribute, just to be on the safe side.

Oooooh! That brings up another topic that we could take up in another thread...

The use (or lack thereof) of the Temporary Disable function. I used to see it used effectively, but not so much anymore. Is there a reason?

If a cache is frozen, damaged, disabled, muggled, etc, I'd think an owner would (and should) disable until it can be resolved. It seems this function is being pushed to the Reviewers, and that is a shame.

If I can't get pen to paper because of a maintenance issue, I would do my best to sign, and then post a NM to the cache. If I can't get pen to paper, I'd email the owner and ask if they are ok with a "found it" before I logged it as such. It's a relationship between users, and I don't see it being utilized as much anymore.

3.7k · January 4, 2014

I've logged caches I haven't signed due to a forgotten/bad pen. I always take a photo if proof is required but nobody has ever emailed me for one. I also accept logs on my caches from people who've forgotten their pen. Honestly, I don't really care and figure most COs don't either. Do I return to sign it? If it's on my way, yes, I would.

3.6k · January 4, 2014

I know someone that said found a cache and in their log, they said they had no pen with them.

Now here is the kicker, I was the next to find it and there was two working pens inside the cache. :blink:

Edited January 4, 2014 by SwineFlew

15.3k · January 4, 2014

The use (or lack thereof) of the Temporary Disable function. I used to see it used effectively, but not so much anymore. Is there a reason?

I know cache owners who refuse to temporarily disable their caches because the volunteer reviewers might archive their disabled caches. In theory, they could unarchive these caches, but grandfathered caches that do not meet the current interpretation of the current guidelines are generally not unarchived. In some cases, the cache owners know their caches are grandfathered. In other cases, they just don't want to take any chances.

Personally, I temporarily disable my caches when appropriate.

January 4, 2014

Semper Paratus. You should have a pen in your sock next to your extra form 34's sailor! Thank you for your service. And I just use a little mud to mark my name

January 4, 2014

One time someone emailed me with a picture of them holding my keyholder cache, saying that the log sheet was missing and they wanted to know if they could get a smiley. Of course I said yes, they had the cache.They did every thing they had too. I also would have said yes if they simply didn't have a pen.

Now, if they had just taken a picture of the cache, saying they could see it but couldn't get to it to sign it that would have been a different story.

January 5, 2014

@Titus1919, that's too funny. I was not very ready on that one. I remember getting busted for tucking my pen in my watch band. Pushed the deck. I was M-151.

January 5, 2014

Golf-149er

3.4k · January 5, 2014

Semper Parrotus - Always A Parrothead - I'm forgiving of people who forget pens. My own fault, really, for not having more 1.5 inch pencils in my caches. I shall endeavour to correct this.

January 5, 2014

I've not signed many a log cause I'm awful at remembering pens. I always reckon if the CO deletes the log because I didn't sign it I certainly won't complain, but then that's never happened. If you ever compare logs in caches to logs online, you'll notice a lot of folks don't really bother to sign the physical logs either.

I always reckon geocaching is like golf, no point in cheating in a game you play against yourself. Obviously some will disagree and double-check their logs against online ones, but most people won't.

3.6k · January 5, 2014

There was about half dozen times that I had forgot a pen, but I always made another trip to GZ with a pen. Now a day, I dont forget a pen. Think about it, you learn faster if you guys use the method I did. Especially after a major hike. Happen once and never will again!

I think its a lame excuse to say you dont have a pen when you are an experience geocacher. Hello, you are a geocacher. Yes, we all learned the hard way, but really, you arent really learning the hard way by using the "I forgot a pen" excuse.

When you are a pro in a sport/hobby, you dont forget the most important things of the sport/hobby. In geocaching, its THE PEN!

To this date, I never used the "I forgot the pen" excuse.

Think about it, if you go fishing in the middle of a lake/river/wilderness, you wont catch any fishes if you forgot something important to go on your line to catch them. Same to geocaching, no pen, no smiley. Most fishing men/women find out the hard way when they forgot something and have to make another trip to get what they need to catch fishes.

As a CO, I never deleted a log because a geocacher forgot a pen but I always rolled my eyes. Especially those high number cachers. :rolleyes:

Edited January 5, 2014 by SwineFlew

3.6k · January 5, 2014

One time someone emailed me with a picture of them holding my keyholder cache, saying that the log sheet was missing and they wanted to know if they could get a smiley. Of course I said yes, they had the cache.They did every thing they had too. I also would have said yes if they simply didn't have a pen.

Now, if they had just taken a picture of the cache, saying they could see it but couldn't get to it to sign it that would have been a different story.

So, they dont forget to carry a camera which its their phone in most cases, but how in the world some cachers forget their pen but not their phone just make me wonder if they learn anything whats really important to find caches.

3.7k · January 5, 2014

If theyre like me they probably assumed there were pens in their car when there wasnt or the pens were no longer working.

January 5, 2014

@Andromeda321, love the golf analogy. There usually a black or white side to things but with this topic it's a lot of grey and white. "It's kinda ok if you you tried everything else first", or "No,never". If I want to justify how I dealt with it I would take the side of the greys but I still agree with the purists as well.

For me I'll make sure that some sort of mark is left on the log from now, pen or not. But I won't ever get crazy about it and review the logs on my own caches for verification. That's where the golf analogy comes into play.

January 5, 2014

One time someone emailed me with a picture of them holding my keyholder cache, saying that the log sheet was missing and they wanted to know if they could get a smiley. Of course I said yes, they had the cache.They did every thing they had too. I also would have said yes if they simply didn't have a pen.

Now, if they had just taken a picture of the cache, saying they could see it but couldn't get to it to sign it that would have been a different story.

So, they dont forget to carry a camera which its their phone in most cases, but how in the world some cachers forget their pen but not their phone just make me wonder if they learn anything whats really important to find caches.

I've done this myself. For many people, it's an instinct to have their phone with them; a pen, not so much.

2k · January 5, 2014

I do not have many pet peeves, but if someone writes found cache but did not sign due to lack of pen, I will email them to remove that as it would just be complete allowance for anyone to just armchair caches from home. I know its honest at least, but I would rather them just say found it and not mention it in their log and just email me behind the scenes if they were worried I would delete the log by checking it (which I would not for a basic cache and its an outlier)

2.6k · January 5, 2014

When you are a pro in a sport/hobby, you dont forget the most important things of the sport/hobby. In geocaching, its THE PEN!

I would have thought it was the GPS....

7.5k · January 5, 2014

I've done this myself. For many people, it's an instinct to have their phone with them; a pen, not so much.

I agree. And in today's electronic age a pen/pencil is less necessary in everyday life. When out and about most of my quick note taking is done on my cell phone.

3.3k · January 6, 2014

The ultimate decision is that of the cache owner, and no amount of agreement in here will change that.

On the rare occasions that I've been at a find without a pen I have managed to scratch my initials or at least a W on the log with a twig and leaf, and often take a picture as well. I've never had a CO delete a log for that.

Sometimes with a very small cache I'll use the scissors on my small pocket knife to make a small cut on the log book to prove I was there. With a simple fold it's easy to cut a T shape, and even where a nano is concerned cutting a small corner off the log or a T shape in one of the squares proves I was there.

With one exception COs have accepted the log. The one sent me a rather curt email having a serious moan that I'd shown such a lack of respect for their cache. I guess s/he was having a bad day.

January 6, 2014

I've been on both ends of "found it but couldn't get paper out / had no pen" and I gave a fairly incomplete answer to an earth cache (but sent the photo and, erm, looked at some rocks and stuff like you do for ECs)...

1. It's just a game;

2. Each to their own way of playing / conscience;

3. Proof of goodwill / having made an effort, is enough IMO. If I got a "coords were rubbish and it's not there but I'm logging a find anyway" type log on one of my caches I'd delete it.

1.1k · January 6, 2014

I as a CO will delete found logs where the "finder" reveal in his online log he did not sign it !!

a PEN is more important over your GPS or phone,

you as a seeker must learn this simple rule,

you did not sign it, then you dot not find it !!

read the guideline for the game you play.

bring at least two working pens, and bring extra battery for your GPS

2k · January 6, 2014

In the past we have signed a log 2-3 times with what was available around us. Usually a twig and some mud. We did make sure the date and name was readable, like 6.| TT (for 6.1. Terratin)and took a photo of it. Last time this happened was while being on business in Houston. Not sure if I left the pen in the previous cache or simply forgot it. Sometimes it happens. Some other times a pen that is certainly not ours would suddenly appear in our bag. :yikes:

3.6k · January 7, 2014

You'll find a few purists who insist no sig = no find. If it were my cache, and you explained in your log that you didn't have a pen (especially if you had a pic to back it up), I'd let the log stand.

The no sig logs I don't like are the ones where "I saw the cache, but I couldn't reach it, so I'm claiming the find". No, in those cases it's obvious that reaching the cache was part of the challenge (it's up a tree, for example), and you didn't meet the challenge. No find. Likewise if it's some sort of puzzle container where opening the container, via a combination lock or whatever, is the challenge, then again, you found the container but didn't complete the challenge (getting it open), then no find.

If, however, you couldn't open the container because it's rusted/frozen shut or something like that, well, that's not your fault and wasn't meant to be part of the challenge. I'd let that log stand as well.

Opinions vary, but that's my take on it.

Wow I couldn't say it any better.

To the OP please carry plenty of pens or like I do, a stamp.

January 7, 2014

I just ran into the frozen scenario. The container was plastic and the lid was froze and it was froze to the ground. With how brittle plastic is when it is below freezing out I did not want to break it so I counted it as a find and told the CO about why I couldn't sigh.

14k · January 7, 2014

When you are a pro in a sport/hobby, you dont forget the most important things of the sport/hobby. In geocaching, its THE PEN!

I would have thought it was the GPS....

Have you ever tried to sign a log sheet with a GPS?

I've found myself at caches twice with I didn't have a pen/pencil. Once, I got to the cache location and the pen just wouldn't work. It was located near a small pond so I gathered a little mud and used it as "ink" for the pen. I mentioned it in my online log and the next person to find the cache did a trace over my muddy NYPC scrawl with a working pen. I agree with Andromeda's approach. If I got to GZ and discovered that I didn't have a working pen I'd try to find some method of making a mark. If that wasn't good enough for a CO I would let them delete my log and forget about it. Reducing my count by one isn't going to ruin my day (anymore than increasing my find count by one is going to make my day).

6.1k · January 7, 2014

call it a dnf
take a picture of the cache
log it with permission of the owner after sending an email
just write in your log you did not have a pen
make a mark somehow and call it yours
just log it anyway and don't say anything

Those are most of the choices. Chances are if you chose the last option, nobody would notice or care.

No pen

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