Groundspeak accounting

December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

5.6k · December 13, 2013

Curious - yes. But this ain't no 501C operation, nor is it publicly held, so good luck with that.

However -- 5 million less all of the truly 'inactives', and probably less than 50% of whatever number is left.

1.9k · December 13, 2013

I don't really care how they spend their money. They are a business. And I love their product.

December 13, 2013

I too love their product, and am certainly not looking for an audit. Just curious as someone long involved with other volunteer-sustained organizations.

1.7k · December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

From a business standpoint, it is easy to see that they are using a "NoneYa Business Plan". This plan is very effective, it is the one I use in my business, and is very extensive in its accounting methods.

13.7k · December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

No.

3.8k · December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

They do NOT make $75 million. I'll eat a bison tube if they even take in half that. I have met someone whose business takes in about $80 million, and it's a lot more work than that.

Anyway-they created a business, and it makes money. They pay their staff, pay for the website, for Geocaching HQ, pay for hamster food and wheels. Then they/him (Is Jeremy the sole owner?)can take nothing, and keep the money in the company, or take $500 million if he so feels. A business is to make money. I don't think they should have to answer what they do with profit.

As for volunteers...Well how should they get paid? Lets talk the reviewers. Should they get paid hourly? How much? Minimum wage where they live? Minimum wage in Seattle? More? They can easily cheat and bring up more "issues" with cache pages so they can go review them again. Or maybe they should get paid salary. How much per year? Do all the reviewers get paid the same? Is it based on cache density?

Then there are difficulties in international law. Groundspeak is based in Washington State, USA. I live in Alberta, Canada. My reviewer is in BC, Canada, and the fill-in is in Quebec(Or Ontario) Canada. So it would be a bitch to find out if they are legally working in Washington(Company is based there) BC/QC(where they live) or AB, SASK, BC, or any of the other provinces where they are actually doing the work.

As you can see once we get past the It's-non-of-your-bussiness, aspect we now have to deal with labor laws. And those can be a real bitch even when moving to a different city in the same province, let alone cross state, provinces and international boundaries.

Edited December 13, 2013 by T.D.M.22

15.3k · December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members,

The last time I saw statistics, half the accounts never logged more than a few dozen finds. I think it's quite a stretch to assume that the rest are all premium members.

is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

No, no one has ever asked a question like that before...

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=278054

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=300151

21.9k · December 13, 2013

As this topic does not suggest a feature request or report a bug, I'm moving it from the Geocaching.com Web Site forum to the Geocaching Topics forum.

Keystone

Volunteer Global Moderator, The Groundspeak Forums

And Worth Every Penny They Pay Me

3.3k · December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

No.

Yes. And I venture to say thousands if not millions are also curious.

December 13, 2013

Actually no and same goes for any other private business out there, what Groundspeak do with the money they make had nothing to do with you. You are simply a customer for their services, IF you don't like the way they operate your option is to discontinue using their services and this only changes if you are some form if shareholder in the company, a creditor or the US tax man.

3.8k · December 13, 2013

Keystone

Volunteer Global Moderator, The Groundspeak Forums

And Worth Every Penny They Pay Me

Edited December 13, 2013 by T.D.M.22

1.8k · December 13, 2013

I don't really care how they spend their money. They are a business. And I love their product.

This.

2k · December 13, 2013

If they were really money grubbing hoarders, you would think they would have increased their premium rates or find more ways to find ways to add to your bill, like my cable company does. Course, raising a rate does not mean they are that, but its an example of why they are not.

Don't see Miss Jenn taking private jets to Barbados or Jayme buying multi million dollar houses with her signing bonuses and apart from Jeremy's submarine and Bryan's secret army, what riches do they have?

6.1k · December 13, 2013

There is only $2,138,097 in the 401K. This lists the website value at only 400K, with only $469 daily sales income, and that is double of what a few other sites say. Sales volume is under $10 million according to this site, with a stated amount of about 75 employees. They appear to be attempting to increase the base of users with the free app, while hoping for a eventual complimentary increase of coins and premium memberships as a result of the long term payoff from it.

4.1k · December 13, 2013

Maintaining a fleet of private jets and black helicopters is expensive but I suppose platinum memberships help pay for it.

December 13, 2013

You've never been to a Groundspeak Block Party, have you? :lol:

10.2k · December 13, 2013

There is only $2,138,097 in the 401K. This lists the website value at only 400K, with only $469 daily sales income, and that is double of what a few other sites say. Sales volume is under $10 million according to this site, with a stated amount of about 75 employees. They appear to be attempting to increase the base of users with the free app, while hoping for a eventual complimentary increase of coins and premium memberships as a result of the long term payoff from it.

The voice of sanity, thank you. And I don't say that about you too often. :laughing:

That was one of the craziest figures I've ever seen thrown out there. And it only included premium memberships to boot. What, they don't sell any 4 cent aluminum dog tags for $6?

1. There are not 5 Million Geocachers, that's a grossly exaggerated marketing number. Maybe 5 million people have heard about it.

2. An "unofficial" study a few years ago showed only 5-6% of memberships were premium.

3. I work for a slightly smaller, but similar privately owned business that makes a profit every year. Their yearly revenues are, in a banner year, less than 1/6th of 75 Million.

December 13, 2013

I enjoy their product and the price of Premium membership is ultra-reasonable...So I could care less what they gross or net....If it really bothers anyone that much try to start up a product like Groundspeak on your own...I guarantee you will see the price of admission is a value...

14k · December 13, 2013

I enjoy their product and the price of Premium membership is ultra-reasonable...So I could care less what they gross or net....If it really bothers anyone that much try to start up a product like Groundspeak on your own...I guarantee you will see the price of admission is a value...

I enjoy their product, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that is contributing to their income that isn't 100% satisfied with their product. I don't care what they gross, but I would prefer to see money spent on their product (which will keep existing customers satisfied), rather than marketing their product in an attempt to obtain new customers.

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's a business and if you don't like they way they run it, just suck it up or go elsewhere".

38.2k · December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

Nope I'm not in the least bit curious. I hope it's making them rich enough so that they wouldn't consider selling out to Google, Garmin or some other major corporation that doesn't give a squat about geoaching other than how much money they can make out of it. I like that the site is still run by geocachers, no matter how much money make.

December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

Nope I'm not in the least bit curious. I hope it's making them rich enough so that they wouldn't consider selling out to Google, Garmin or some other major corporation that doesn't give a squat about geoaching other than how much money they can make out of it. I like that the site is still run by geocachers, no matter how much money make.

+1

And the real people making money off my geocaching are the gas stations... :laughing:

2.7k · December 13, 2013

... assuming at least half are Premium members ...

I'm curious how accurate this made up statistic is. The main page mentions over 6 million geocaches but doesn't break that down any further. Does anyone know the actual number or a closer estimation. My gut says that 50% is way too high. But my gut has been known to be wrong on occasion.

4.5k · December 13, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

Nope I'm not in the least bit curious. I hope it's making them rich enough so that they wouldn't consider selling out to Google, Garmin or some other major corporation that doesn't give a squat about geoaching other than how much money they can make out of it. I like that the site is still run by geocachers, no matter how much money make.

I agree that i believe GS as a whole is still run by people who care about geocaching. I sure don't want to see them sell out to anyone but we all know that money (or the prospect of making more of it) can go to a person's head. Money has caused many to lose focus on what their objective was in the first place.

To be honest, i feel some of this focus has been lost in the last few years. GS's change of philosophy from "creating caches that are interesting in some way, that don't have to be placed 530 feet apart just because the guidelines says they can" to "go power trails" is one of those changes that i don't believe is good for geocaching in the long run. The ads on the website, the push to market more and more geocache related merchandise, etc,, seem to indicate that bringing in more money is the driving force these days.

I enjoy being a GS customer and definitely want to see the company succeed. I'm glad they make a profit but i do hope that the influence of the almighty dollar doesn't cause them to make too many bad decisions.

December 13, 2013

Any business I give money to I would like to know generally that they maintain an ethical and moralistic practice. I accept that they are not going to give a report as it also may give away trade practices that may otherwise compromise their business. However, it would be nice to have some level of disclosure. I'd be more insistent if I was a volunteer (reviewers, moderators, etc.) as my time and effort would be valuable and I'm not giving something away for free if people are making large amounts of money at the top.

21.9k · December 13, 2013

As a volunteer, I've visited the homes of Groundspeak Lackeys, including a founder. I've met their spouses and kids. I've rode in their cachemobiles on geocaching trips.

Nothing I saw made me think that anybody's getting insanely rich. Seattle has a high cost of living, so if a department manager is able to afford a modest three bedroom house in a nice city neighborhood, I'm all for paying them enough to do that. Especially when she invites me to that house and throws an awesome party.

Now, the offices - that's another matter. I am insanely jealous of Geocaching HQ as a place to work, compared to the boring skyscraper where my employer has its headquarters. They take care of the Lackeys very well at the office. And they need to, with companies like Google right across the street, trying to steal away talented programmers.

15.3k · December 13, 2013

... assuming at least half are Premium members ...
I'm curious how accurate this made up statistic is. The main page mentions over 6 million geocaches but doesn't break that down any further. Does anyone know the actual number or a closer estimation. My gut says that 50% is way too high. But my gut has been known to be wrong on occasion.

The highest conversion rates I've seen for other freemium sites have been in the single digits. A 5% conversion rate is actually very good for a freemium site. A lot of them have a conversion rate below 1%.

But that's just revenue. Servers and bandwidth aren't cheap for a site like this. Running big sites like this is expensive.

8.3k · December 13, 2013

If they were really money grubbing hoarders, you would think they would have increased their premium rates or find more ways to find ways to add to your bill, like my cable company does. Course, raising a rate does not mean they are that, but its an example of why they are not.

Don't see Miss Jenn taking private jets to Barbados or Jayme buying multi million dollar houses with her signing bonuses and apart from Jeremy's submarine and Bryan's secret army, what riches do they have?

Oh dear, your going to set ob4am off again with that statement.

As for riches, I've heard rumors about the private island and black helicopters that Elias is amassing.

3.7k · December 13, 2013

If they really wanted to make an insane amount of money, they'd increase the premium membership to $30/month, not $30/year. All of us addicts would have no choice but to pay up.

December 13, 2013

Personal Opinion here...

There have only been 260,000 cachers that have found over 200 caches (cacherstats site), of those the majority are no longer active, and some are active but not premium memebers. My thoughts are that there are most likely 100,000-125,000 premium members. The income from that and the coins would cover the employees they have, servers, travel to events, and free swag given out, no one would have exorbitant salaries.

December 13, 2013

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's a business and if you don't like they way they run it, just suck it up or go elsewhere".

If you don't have controlling stake or stock in the business what else can you do..??? You can make suggestions but ultimately it is the owners game and business to do what they feel is best for growth...The only thing consumers can control is who gets their hard earned dollars.....

10.2k · December 13, 2013

Personal Opinion here...

There have only been 260,000 cachers that have found over 200 caches (cacherstats site), of those the majority are no longer active, and some are active but not premium memebers. My thoughts are that there are most likely 100,000-125,000 premium members. The income from that and the coins would cover the employees they have, servers, travel to events, and free swag given out, no one would have exorbitant salaries.

I agree with that! 260,000 cachers in the entire world have found 200 caches, that is not a heck of a lot. Many of even those are now inactive, and many more of them are not premium members. No one is getting rich. Then again, they have grown continuously over 13 years, and are not laying anyone off.

15.3k · December 13, 2013

Then again, they have grown continuously over 13 years, and are not laying anyone off.

And that's a good thing...

8.3k · December 13, 2013

Personal Opinion here...

There have only been 260,000 cachers that have found over 200 caches (cacherstats site), of those the majority are no longer active, and some are active but not premium memebers. My thoughts are that there are most likely 100,000-125,000 premium members. The income from that and the coins would cover the employees they have, servers, travel to events, and free swag given out, no one would have exorbitant salaries.

I agree with that! 260,000 cachers in the entire world have found 200 caches, that is not a heck of a lot. Many of even those are now inactive, and many more of them are not premium members. No one is getting rich. Then again, they have grown continuously over 13 years, and are not laying anyone off.

I don't disagree but the numbers are certainly plus or minus. The cacher has to find 200 caches *and* find one of the sample caches. If you don't find one of the sample caches you go uncounted. I was aware of several cachers that were over 200 but were not being tracked simply because they did not find one of the sample caches. And definitely as you get closer to 200 you find fewer and fewer cachers that have really done much in the past month (year?) or two. Random sampling it looks like the bottom three pages or so in the state of Washington are pretty much inacitive (dropped out?) cachers. I'm comfortable putting the number of reasonably active cachers around 100,000 to 150,000. But what is interesting, and maybe why GS seems to push smartphone usage, is how many smartphone folks come into the hobby, get all excited, pop for a membership, but long before the membership expires has moved on to the next thing. Get lots of churn in the 0-100 cache region and you probably get a fair amount of memberships flowing in.

1.8k · December 13, 2013

I do not know, however, ::::

I wish they would buy the hamsters some high energy drinks so they come out of their tryptophan overdose and >>>> REPAIR QUERRIES ALONG A ROUTE !!!!!!!!!!

8.3k · December 13, 2013

I do not know, however, ::::

I wish they would buy the hamsters some high energy drinks so they come out of their tryptophan overdose and >>>> REPAIR QUERRIES ALONG A ROUTE !!!!!!!!!!

I think they did repair it, didn't they? I seem to remember something about a release with a fix from Moun10bike.

2.7k · December 13, 2013

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's a business and if you don't like they way they run it, just suck it up or go elsewhere".

If you don't have controlling stake or stock in the business what else can you do..??? You can make suggestions but ultimately it is the owners game and business to do what they feel is best for growth...The only thing consumers can control is who gets their hard earned dollars.....

Aren't you agreeing with the post you quoted?

I could care less how much money the company earns. I do hope they continue to earn enough to keep the hamsters fed, the dogs trained, and the lackeys happy, that way we all get to continue enjoying the use of the website.

1.8k · December 14, 2013

I do not know, however, ::::

I wish they would buy the hamsters some high energy drinks so they come out of their tryptophan overdose and >>>> REPAIR QUERRIES ALONG A ROUTE !!!!!!!!!!

I think they did repair it, didn't they? I seem to remember something about a release with a fix from Moun10bike.

Saw that post and two other related threads.

As of 1601 hours Pacific Standard Time it still needs hamster attention

5.3k · December 14, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

Being that Groundspeak is a private company if you really want to know you would have to buy the company to find out.

Now it could be that Groundspeak is a wing of the CIA and some of the high number cachers are agents that make dead drops of secret information while other agent make pick ups. It has been said the best spys are un assuming sorts, kind of like the people you meet at caching events

Edited December 14, 2013 by JohnnyVegas

2.7k · December 14, 2013

As a volunteer, I've visited the homes of Groundspeak Lackeys, including a founder. I've met their spouses and kids. I've rode in their cachemobiles on geocaching trips.

Nothing I saw made me think that anybody's getting insanely rich. Seattle has a high cost of living, so if a department manager is able to afford a modest three bedroom house in a nice city neighborhood, I'm all for paying them enough to do that. Especially when she invites me to that house and throws an awesome party.

The founders addresses are in a couple of public records. If you know where to look you can find them. A couple years ago I was curious and look up the addresses on Google Maps Street View. They were your typical middle class homes in your typical middle class neighborhoods. Nothing special. If they are making millions and millions of dollars from running a website then they sure aren't living like it.

December 14, 2013

As a volunteer, I've visited the homes of Groundspeak Lackeys, including a founder. I've met their spouses and kids. I've rode in their cachemobiles on geocaching trips.

Nothing I saw made me think that anybody's getting insanely rich. Seattle has a high cost of living, so if a department manager is able to afford a modest three bedroom house in a nice city neighborhood, I'm all for paying them enough to do that. Especially when she invites me to that house and throws an awesome party.

The founders addresses are in a couple of public records. If you know where to look you can find them. A couple years ago I was curious and look up the addresses on Google Maps Street View. They were your typical middle class homes in your typical middle class neighborhoods. Nothing special. If they are making millions and millions of dollars from running a website then they sure aren't living like it.

Ok that's a little bit creepy!

10.2k · December 14, 2013

As a volunteer, I've visited the homes of Groundspeak Lackeys, including a founder. I've met their spouses and kids. I've rode in their cachemobiles on geocaching trips.

Nothing I saw made me think that anybody's getting insanely rich. Seattle has a high cost of living, so if a department manager is able to afford a modest three bedroom house in a nice city neighborhood, I'm all for paying them enough to do that. Especially when she invites me to that house and throws an awesome party.

The founders addresses are in a couple of public records. If you know where to look you can find them. A couple years ago I was curious and look up the addresses on Google Maps Street View. They were your typical middle class homes in your typical middle class neighborhoods. Nothing special. If they are making millions and millions of dollars from running a website then they sure aren't living like it.

Ok that's a little bit creepy!

Eh, I might do that, but I wouldn't admit it here. For the record, I have not done that. :laughing: I suppose we can just take Keystone's word for it that he's been to a few of their houses.

4.5k · December 14, 2013

I enjoy their product and the price of Premium membership is ultra-reasonable...So I could care less what they gross or net....If it really bothers anyone that much try to start up a product like Groundspeak on your own...I guarantee you will see the price of admission is a value...

I enjoy their product, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that is contributing to their income that isn't 100% satisfied with their product. I don't care what they gross, but I would prefer to see money spent on their product (which will keep existing customers satisfied), rather than marketing their product in an attempt to obtain new customers.

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's a business and if you don't like they way they run it, just suck it up or go elsewhere".

This^

I imagine that GS is making good money and that generally, their employees are a happy bunch. All good news indeed just so long as the higher ups don't get too greedy and begin making bad decisions in an effort to bring in even more bucks. Unfortunately, i think there have been a few bad decisions made in recent times.

2.7k · December 14, 2013

Ok that's a little bit creepy!

It's not any creepier than those maps to Movie Stars Homes' that you can buy in Hollywood. My home address, like many other people's home address, is also in a public record or three. I don't know why anyone would want to look me up but they can and there is little I can do about it. Visit me uninvited and you're not going to have a good time. I assume the founders, like most people, feel the same way. Besides, the Block Party is a much better place to meet them! If you haven't been to one I highly recommend you attend one.

6k · December 14, 2013

I enjoy their product and the price of Premium membership is ultra-reasonable...So I could care less what they gross or net....If it really bothers anyone that much try to start up a product like Groundspeak on your own...I guarantee you will see the price of admission is a value...

I enjoy their product, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that is contributing to their income that isn't 100% satisfied with their product. I don't care what they gross, but I would prefer to see money spent on their product (which will keep existing customers satisfied), rather than marketing their product in an attempt to obtain new customers.

Sorry. I don't buy the "it's a business and if you don't like they way they run it, just suck it up or go elsewhere".

This^

I imagine that GS is making good money and that generally, their employees are a happy bunch. All good news indeed just so long as the higher ups don't get too greedy and begin making bad decisions in an effort to bring in even more bucks. Unfortunately, i think there have been a few bad decisions made in recent times.

Let's keep in mind that the general definition of "bad decision" is something that the sayer disagreed with.

3.8k · December 14, 2013

There is one thing that could be a major expense. Remember when GS stopped using Google Maps, because Google wanted to get paid for them. The we got Google Maps back for the PM's.

Groundspeak has to be paying them quite a bit of money there...

8.9k · December 14, 2013

I keep picturing the movie "The Incredibles" when Samuel L. Jackson's character Frozone asks his wife "Honey, Where's my Super Suit?"

3.3k · December 14, 2013

I enjoy their product and the price of Premium membership is ultra-reasonable...So I could care less what they gross or net....If it really bothers anyone that much try to start up a product like Groundspeak on your own...I guarantee you will see the price of admission is a value...

I'd be wary of such a guarantee but certainly agree that the best decision is whether the premium membership offers enough value to pay the price. Frankly I really have little interest in whether the staff at Groundspeak eat ramen noodles every day because it's all they can afford, or use $100 bills as firelighters because they've got so many of them they get in the way. If I see the product as offering good value I'll buy it, if not I won't.

It's funny how people look at a small company and wonder how much money they are making while so many apparently don't care how much the people at the top of companies like Google, Microsoft, Wal-Mart etc are making.

3.3k · December 14, 2013

With 5 million geocachers, and assuming at least half are Premium members, is anyone else curious how a potential $75+ million are spent annually to basically maintain a website, a small team of minions and a global team of volunteer reviewers?

Assuming BrianDiane has billions of dollars tucked away, is anyone else curious why they don't just buy Groundspeak and find out?

2.6k · December 14, 2013

Very well satisfied with the product and how the profits are spent do not concern me in the least. I've worked attached to a crane ball, worked in trenches, been burned with fire and acid and choked on poison gas but none of that bothered me as much as the thought of going in to my own business...never did either. Hats off to the business owners out there who take the risks, put up with the B.S., and create the jobs so the rest of us can go to work. I think a business owner is born , not made.

Groundspeak accounting

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