+Cherokee Bill Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 First, its my 1st time back here in a long, long time! Here to vent this time! Just gotta eMail from a cacher that knows I love the Virginia Mtns and caching in the same! Seems that he just had a few new-caches refused as you now must go thru a PERMIT process to put a cache in the George Washington & Jefferson National Forests!!!! This is PURE "BS"..... 1. Today, you can die of old age waiting for the permit to go thru the process. Additionally, you are required to do maintenance on said caches about every 3-months and you must submit a report of required maintenance! 2. The deer do more damage to the teraferma than do cachers 3. There are VERY few cachers even willing to go after such caches. Generally miles of hiking AND significant elevation changes, just for 1 smiley face! 4. I know a few, and they get less than a dozen visits a year, but there are those, that travel great distances just to do these caches! 5. The Appalachian Trail claims a 1000-ft right away! "BS" in my book!
+NeverSummer Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Venting can be productive, but then you will need to calm down and see that you still have to play by the rules to play this game. Just be thankful that Groundspeak and the federal resource managers have found a way to allow geocaching on their lands at all. It is untimately up to each station manager to make the decisions about the lands they manage. Some agencies have all-out bans on geocache activities, others have allowances for non-physical caches, and others have case-by-case guidelines. Again, just count your blessings that geocaching was not taken away altogether on those lands. I'm tempted to go after each of your bullet points, but that will just poke the hornet's nest. There are plenty of threads to look at which shed light on land manager relationships, and the guidelines of the game are pretty straightforward.
+wimseyguy Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 You are venting in the wrong direction. It isn't a geocaching.com policy, it is a National Forest policy. The only guideline it crosses is 'all local laws apply'.
+The_Incredibles_ Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 OK, so you have to fill out a form and I'm pretty sure you can fudge the 3-month maintenance visits. At least they allow geocaching there and, you know what, the geocaches will probably be higher quality.
+Isonzo Karst Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 In Florida, I have a preference for hunting caches placed in areas that require the cache owner to pull permits. These caches tend to be well thought out, placed by someone who cared enough to visit more than once, carried in a quality container, has a clue about how the area will change over the seasons and a thought about how that will impact a geocache. Someone who actually knows something about the area and the outdoors - not "I was more than 600 ft from my last smiley, so I dropped this pill bottle in a bush". As a fairly prolific hider, I admit that I appreciate the "place caches freely" policy of one the major land managers in my area, but I still own and place plenty of caches in the Florida state forests, and Fish and Wildlife management areas, which require permits, and annual renewal of said permits. They're sometimes fast and sometimes slow on issue, but at least they're free. I hope your permit process is free. Fee permits are really tough, and would slow me waaaay down. Free permits are a bump in the road. time passes, you get your permit, cache goes live, it's all good.
+Isonzo Karst Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Ouch, I just looked up the Virginia National Forests Geocache permit...$59 fee. Pain. Agreeing wimseyguy's post above mine, this was not instituted by Geocaching.com - they don't set land manager policy. This is a policy put in place by U.S. National Forest, Region 8, Virginia. Once someone notifies Geocaching.com of a land manager's policy, the area reviewers will ask whether a geocache has met the policy.
+briansnat Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 I think some land managers implement permit policies just so they can feel like they are doing SOMETHING. Of course they have a right (actually an obligation) to know what is taking place on the lands they manage and to regulate it if there is a negative impact. But many of these policies are implemented with little direct experience with geocaching, are overly restrictive and in some cases ridiculously expensive. Where substantial fees are charged it becomes an effective ban, and they know that.
+JL_HSTRE Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Permitting is fine to me, but $60 is ridiculous.
Clan Riffster Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 This is a policy put in place by U.S. National Forest, Region 8.... On a related note, Florida is also within Region 8. Remember when the National Forest Service tried instituting this prohibitive fee based permit system for the Ocala, Osceola and Apalachicola National Forests? Apparently, someone within the bureaucracy of the organization was opposed to geocaching, and interpreted an old rule in such a way as to require expensive permits for each cache. This interpretation was forwarded up the chain of command, and rather than read the rules for themselves, TPTB simply accepted it as holy doctrine, passing it back down to the senior staff at each forest. When I pointed out the error in interpretation to the folks in Tallahassee, they decided to waive the fees pending official resolution, allowing caching to go forward unhindered in Florida National Forests. I'm thinking, if the folks in Virginia would spend their energy researching the Forest Service rules, and writing letters to the top of the food chain, things might change for them as well.
+Lieblweb Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 There are areas within New York that require permits. Each geocache has a permit Number right on the container. What's wrong with that? It is expensive...but hey.... #1) They are generating money for the park. #2) This will prevent irresponsible & lame hides (more or less). Anyone who's willing to pay $60 to hide a geocache, must be a dedicated person who will put some thought into the hide, will be environmentally conscious, and will maintain it. If you don't like it.......move on to another location. Easy as that.
+Viajero Perdido Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Virginia National Forests Geocache permit...$59 fee. Pain. That's crazy. As a geotourist, I go where there isn't crazy. I've saved a lot of money already, probably $800 or $1000 over the years, on national park fees here in Canada. If they don't want caches, they don't get cachers.
+geodarts Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 (edited) This gets discussed periodically. Although the fee seems to be based on a Region 8 handbook that was written several years ago, it is certainly not applied uniformly. Some national forests in the region, such as North Carolina, appear to apply a fee only if a cache is placed for commercial purposes. The Daniel Boone NF does not require permits (although they do limit caches to a year's placement). The Cherokee NF uses the same language as Virginia in requiring a "minimal fee." Has there been any formal meetings with the National Forest people in Virginia to try to resolve it? Edited November 13, 2013 by geodarts
+GeoTrekker26 Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 There are areas within New York that require permits. Each geocache has a permit Number right on the container. What's wrong with that? It is expensive...but hey.... #1) They are generating money for the park. #2) This will prevent irresponsible & lame hides (more or less). Anyone who's willing to pay $60 to hide a geocache, must be a dedicated person who will put some thought into the hide, will be environmentally conscious, and will maintain it. If you don't like it.......move on to another location. Easy as that. The National Forest is not a park. A National Park is, in effect, a preserve and limitations (bans) there are understandable. By definition, a National Forest is a joint use area where activities such as logging are allowed. The $60 fee is absurd and is simply a way to cut their workload.
4wheelin_fool Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Fifty nine dollars seems like their way of banning it while telling everyone else geocaches are welcome. Get a half dozen people together to make a creative six stage multi and it wont hurt as much. There are plenty of videos of good ideas, just combine several and raise the bar to make it epic.
+humboldt flier Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 This is a policy put in place by U.S. National Forest, Region 8.... On a related note, Florida is also within Region 8. Remember when the National Forest Service tried instituting this prohibitive fee based permit system for the Ocala, Osceola and Apalachicola National Forests? Apparently, someone within the bureaucracy of the organization was opposed to geocaching, and interpreted an old rule in such a way as to require expensive permits for each cache. This interpretation was forwarded up the chain of command, and rather than read the rules for themselves, TPTB simply accepted it as holy doctrine, passing it back down to the senior staff at each forest. When I pointed out the error in interpretation to the folks in Tallahassee, they decided to waive the fees pending official resolution, allowing caching to go forward unhindered in Florida National Forests. I'm thinking, if the folks in Virginia would spend their energy researching the Forest Service rules, and writing letters to the top of the food chain, things might change for them as well. Right on Riff.
+NeverSummer Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 There are areas within New York that require permits. Each geocache has a permit Number right on the container. What's wrong with that? It is expensive...but hey.... #1) They are generating money for the park. #2) This will prevent irresponsible & lame hides (more or less). Anyone who's willing to pay $60 to hide a geocache, must be a dedicated person who will put some thought into the hide, will be environmentally conscious, and will maintain it. If you don't like it.......move on to another location. Easy as that. The National Forest is not a park. A National Park is, in effect, a preserve and limitations (bans) there are understandable. By definition, a National Forest is a joint use area where activities such as logging are allowed. The $60 fee is absurd and is simply a way to cut their workload. Just to pick nits, a National Forest is a park, with a lower "p". What it means, above all else, is that the land is managed by a federal agency and we have to play by their rules. It's complicated, and, just like most complicated things in American government, complicated things get oversimplified in discussion in a way that makes the original information a bit unclear to some. Bottom line is that the regulation is in place, and getting angry about it won't make that land manager any more likely to open it back up for geocaching for a lower or no-fee permit process.
+basscat5 Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 (edited) Most of the other organizations and hobbies that I am a part of have lobbying organizations that work hard at the federal level to keep access open to their members in public areas....For fishing..BASS, FLW, For my off-road hobbies the AMA and for Mountain Biking MMBA...Does geocaching.com do this?? (I am just getting more active in this community) There is strength in numbers and the squeeky wheels get the oil.. I have no problem with the permit procedure because that is life, but 59 bucks is way too steep.... Edited November 13, 2013 by basscat5
+Tassie_Boy Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Let's think about this for a minute, $60 isn't that bad really. They want you to get a permit so they have some control over what's going on in their park. it needs to be hidden well so it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, it needs to be maintained so it doesn't end up as rubbish spread over a mile of track. If there are any issues the ranger is generally the one who has to sort it out and that's where the cost is. If there's a report of rubbish on a track roughly where he knows there is a cache your permit fee I is paying for him to go and clean it up. He May even inspect after placement to check it meets his guidelines. It doesn't take long for these costs to add up very quickly and let's face it, you're government can't really afford to be spending money it doesn't need to.
+NeverSummer Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Let's think about this for a minute, $60 isn't that bad really. They want you to get a permit so they have some control over what's going on in their park. it needs to be hidden well so it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, it needs to be maintained so it doesn't end up as rubbish spread over a mile of track. If there are any issues the ranger is generally the one who has to sort it out and that's where the cost is. If there's a report of rubbish on a track roughly where he knows there is a cache your permit fee I is paying for him to go and clean it up. He May even inspect after placement to check it meets his guidelines. It doesn't take long for these costs to add up very quickly and let's face it, you're government can't really afford to be spending money it doesn't need to. Bingo. The land managers don't really have the resources (time and $$) to have Rangers out monitoring these additional inputs. So, some agencies and/or managers have implemented a fee structure to offset those additional costs. In my case, we have chosen to have caches that can be maintained easily on our administrative site, and won't have ANY physical caches on Refuge land due to our regulations and Groundspeak's guidelines. I can help maintain the caches we have without creating additional strain on our resources (time, $$). Now, a place like these Virgina NFs have decided that they are ok with geocaches, but the resources need to be added to deal with these additional inputs. This just means that they need to find a way to cover their mission-critical needs while adding an external public use requiring everything from Compatability Determination and Special Use Permit paperwork, to patrols outside of normal routine mission-critical work. The Sequester has agencies stretched very thin, and any activities outside of mission-critical activities is going to get squeezed. If it is no fee you want, then start thinking of ways to support your local federal agencies through volunteering, or voting to increase their budgets so that they can handle additional, non-mission-critical activities like geocaching. Just sayin.
+Cherokee Bill Posted November 13, 2013 Author Posted November 13, 2013 1. I am NOT blaming Geocaching.com - I realize they are just following State/Federal rule/regs 2. I feel that the permit-system in pre "BS" and that's MY opinion. U are entitled to yours 3. A fee is adding hurt to injury! A fee of $59 is criminal So, lets close this thread, and let the dead-horse lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cascade Reviewer Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 To the OP: Just for future reference, it would be best not to create a thread with guns blazing, because it puts people on the defensive and it's harder for you to get a balanced discussion. More flies with honey, and all that. Also, please refrain from using words that are on the edge, like "BS". Thank you. Closing thread per OP's request.
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