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INTRO APP users are killing the hobby


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I'm sure there's a happy medium that doesn't involve mandatory lessons and licenses but also makes it as easy as possible to read and understand. People are lazy, so design interfaces so that the path of least resistance takes them through a basic tutorial and offers more to those that want it. Ultimately if people are intent on stealing caches and travel bugs (as opposed to not understanding what they are there for) there's virtually nothing that can be done about it, but it makes sense to at least offer information to the people who would be tagged as "thieves" based on nothing more than misunderstanding the game. If the idea is to "take something, and leave something of comparable value" how is the newbie cacher supposed to know that the Happy Meal toy with the funny metal tag on it isn't a trade item to take home for their kids?

Excellent post in its entirety. I would like to respond only to the last paragraph.

 

I think you have correctly categorised the issue: "misunderstanding the game." I seriously doubt there is any malicious intent in this issue. The problem in education in any sense is how to make it happen. My "blanket statement" that "no one reads anything" is of course, hyperbole. (You knew that, LOL) But the poinbt is entirely accurate as you acknowledge- "People are lazy, so design interfaces so that the path of least resistance..."

 

That "path" has to be mandatory entered upon loading the app for the first time. But still, you can't make anyone read or even look at a video. Without some kind of test, it will be treated by most exactly like the privacy statement- click the box and move on.

 

At least if the tutorial ran automatically, SOME people who might not understand, would. Pretty simple fix for a lot of it.

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"One time use." That is perhaps the salvation in this issue. People who do not have a clue will burn out quickly. Damage minimised, but not eliminated or repaired.

 

Damage per user minimised, as long as there isn't a tidal wave of users who sign up, think the idea is to find the cache and then hide it somewhere else, and don't understand they're supposed to maintain the caches. Of course if they think someone will find it where they hid it and move it on, why would they even consider the implications of maintaining their cache?

 

Until GC fixes or at least puts a bandaid on the problem to stop the bleeding, what do WE do?

 

Suggestions:

1. I don't think higher difficulty ratings will make much difference. I see high rated caches on my copy of the windows phone app whilst logged in to a totally bogus usernams- just looked at a 4* 10 mi south. Besides, over rating will "kill the game" as well.

 

Over-rating will make the game appear far less friendly to those with mobility issues than it can currently be. It will also make it harder to figure out which caches are really going to involve a bit of physical effort if everything is routinely rated 3/3 as a minimum.

 

2. Obviously, PMO will work to some extent- but all one has to do is click the "pay" link and they can be a PREMIUM MEMBER without a clue! But going PMO diminishes your cache's exposure. Ultimately, if the USERS go this route, GC benefits from additional income from real cachers who don't have anything to hunt unless they pay up. Might not be a bad thing overall. Might end up splitting the community more so than it is already split.

 

It would still be counterproductive, on the basis that Groundspeak gets the money while the users get their caches destroyed. Removing the free option might slow the flow of people signing up because it was free, trashing a couple of caches because they didn't know how the game was supposed to be played and then getting bored and moving on. But removing the free option is pretty much the same as closing the door to new cachers using the app - it's hard to see people paying $10 for three months just to try a new game.

 

3. Concentrate on better hides- longer walks, more difficult locations... the rogues will still have access but I would bet they won't stay on the trail long enough to actually find (and destroy) the cache.

 

Good idea overall but also restrictive in urban areas and for those with more limited mobility.

 

GC needs to immediately institute new account security, verifying information the same way everybody else on the internet does. Then they need to send emails to every user asking to verify their email (same way everybody else on the internet does) and block all accounts whose verification fails- with provision to "reset your account" if the person tries to log in. I know this part is difficult but others do it successfully.

 

This would actually be a very simple (LOL) thing to implement in the login process... if the email has not been verified (all accounts at first setup) the site sends an automatic email with a link. If the link is not clicked, user is not logged in., but offered alternatives to restart the account. This actually should be a periodic function to ensure that all members MAINTAIN usable email addresses.

 

This would be a hassle for my own accounts at this time (except for my main account) because my old email address got hacked and I closed it about a year ago. (So I reckon I better change the other accounts before GC takes my advice, LOL)

 

A slight variation on the theme, if your email isn't validated you can log in and view/update your own profile but can't do anything else. It would let people update their email address etc but not go out and look for caches. That does seem like a good idea.

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I'm sure there's a happy medium that doesn't involve mandatory lessons and licenses but also makes it as easy as possible to read and understand. People are lazy, so design interfaces so that the path of least resistance takes them through a basic tutorial and offers more to those that want it. Ultimately if people are intent on stealing caches and travel bugs (as opposed to not understanding what they are there for) there's virtually nothing that can be done about it, but it makes sense to at least offer information to the people who would be tagged as "thieves" based on nothing more than misunderstanding the game. If the idea is to "take something, and leave something of comparable value" how is the newbie cacher supposed to know that the Happy Meal toy with the funny metal tag on it isn't a trade item to take home for their kids?

Excellent post in its entirety. I would like to respond only to the last paragraph.

 

I think you have correctly categorised the issue: "misunderstanding the game." I seriously doubt there is any malicious intent in this issue. The problem in education in any sense is how to make it happen. My "blanket statement" that "no one reads anything" is of course, hyperbole. (You knew that, LOL) But the poinbt is entirely accurate as you acknowledge- "People are lazy, so design interfaces so that the path of least resistance..."

 

That "path" has to be mandatory entered upon loading the app for the first time. But still, you can't make anyone read or even look at a video. Without some kind of test, it will be treated by most exactly like the privacy statement- click the box and move on.

 

At least if the tutorial ran automatically, SOME people who might not understand, would. Pretty simple fix for a lot of it.

 

I think sometimes there is malicious intent, but for as long as things are being left unattended in the middle of the woods there's realistically nothing that can be done to stop those with malicious intent. If someone really wants to steal the sandwich box, or the toys with metal tags on, they're going to whatever we might like to think.

 

If we can address the users who just don't understand the intention of the game we're probably most of the way there. Maybe the intro app could provide a multi-stage process to log a find that started out with "what did you think of the cache?" with a box to answer, then "did you take any trackable items?" and "did you leave any trackable items", followed by a short message of congratulation and a reminder to put the cache back where it came from and hide it so it wouldn't be disturbed.

 

It won't stop the people who find it and then can't be bothered to rehide it because they've had their fun, but maybe it would help. Maybe it would also become annoying enough that people sticking with the game would make a small payment for a less intrusive app.

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... Maybe the intro app could provide a multi-stage process to log a find that started out with "what did you think of the cache?" with a box to answer, then "did you take any trackable items?" and "did you leave any trackable items", followed by a short message of congratulation and a reminder to put the cache back where it came from and hide it so it wouldn't be disturbed.

 

It won't stop the people who find it and then can't be bothered to rehide it because they've had their fun, but maybe it would help. Maybe it would also become annoying enough that people sticking with the game would make a small payment for a less intrusive app.

That is a great idea. Easy to implement, helps new cachers learn, and introduces a nag into the intro app, encouraging users to upgrade.

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it makes sense to at least offer information to the people who would be tagged as "thieves" based on nothing more than misunderstanding the game. If the idea is to "take something, and leave something of comparable value" how is the newbie cacher supposed to know that the Happy Meal toy with the funny metal tag on it isn't a trade item to take home for their kids?

Exactly. It's impossible to know they're not to keep it.

 

518000cd-e196-454c-9af6-d96b162521a1.png

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

:ph34r:

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it makes sense to at least offer information to the people who would be tagged as "thieves" based on nothing more than misunderstanding the game. If the idea is to "take something, and leave something of comparable value" how is the newbie cacher supposed to know that the Happy Meal toy with the funny metal tag on it isn't a trade item to take home for their kids?

Exactly. It's impossible to know they're not to keep it.

 

518000cd-e196-454c-9af6-d96b162521a1.png

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

:ph34r:

 

No kidding. So now on top of them being inconsiderate, they're rather unobservant and possibly illiterate. :laughing:

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it makes sense to at least offer information to the people who would be tagged as "thieves" based on nothing more than misunderstanding the game. If the idea is to "take something, and leave something of comparable value" how is the newbie cacher supposed to know that the Happy Meal toy with the funny metal tag on it isn't a trade item to take home for their kids?

Exactly. It's impossible to know they're not to keep it.

 

518000cd-e196-454c-9af6-d96b162521a1.png

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

:ph34r:

 

No kidding. So now on top of them being inconsiderate, they're rather unobservant and possibly illiterate. :laughing:

Thank goodness the App fixes that. :anibad:

Edited by kunarion
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Kind of an interesting revelation... I have several accounts for different reasons, but I had never considered using any fake credentials before... I'm just not that kind of guy. Plus it has been at least 4 years since I set up an account and honestly didn't remember what was needed. So, I did an experiment...

 

I just installed the WINDOWS intro app on a new smartphone, created a bogus account with an email consisting of random letters and lo and behold, all the caches in the world open up before me! (well all but PMOs I guess)

 

Indeed there ARE SERIOUS PROBLEMS HERE.

 

But the real problem is not an intro app problem, it is a general GC problem... you see, I just did the same thing on my desktop computer... random username, simple password, bogus email... in like flynn!

 

The desktop website DOES have a tutorial video- very basic, nothing about trading, no "put it back like you found it." Cute and trendy, though.

 

Indeed the entire site is open to the dishonest. Hard to believe a 21st century, post 9-11 website could be TOTALLY DEVOID of security! This deserves its own topic if it does not already exist.

 

While admittedly, this is a silly game with no real monetary risk (come on, is that film can with the soaking wet piece of paper in it that you dumped under the lamppost skirt in the Wally World parking lot really THAT important?), i mean its not like someone can steal your life savings with a bogus GC account, but still- NO SECURITY?? WTH, the local pizza joint verifies my email address before I can make an order!

 

But, that said, adding security to account establishment will NOT stop caches from disappearing.

The bottom line is, when you place a cache it is vulnerable to attack by 7 billion people. If GC would fix these GLARING security flaws, it would be only vulnerable to about, oh, seven billion people. But at least the ones that are actually legitimately LOOKING for the cache would be, if not accountable or identifiable, at least contactable.

I completely agree with this. While I use the intro app while in small towns where multis and puzzles aren't likely to be, I have noticed some serious problems with how the app is set up.
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it makes sense to at least offer information to the people who would be tagged as "thieves" based on nothing more than misunderstanding the game. If the idea is to "take something, and leave something of comparable value" how is the newbie cacher supposed to know that the Happy Meal toy with the funny metal tag on it isn't a trade item to take home for their kids?

Exactly. It's impossible to know they're not to keep it.

 

518000cd-e196-454c-9af6-d96b162521a1.png

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

:ph34r:

 

So the newbie cachers who think TBs are trade items (as indicated in other threads) aren't looking at the tag. If people aren't reading tags (and from proposals in what used to be the Suggestions forum it seems people don't want to read the cache pages either) it's hard to know what to do, other than perhaps highlight what a TB looks like when people are writing a log.

 

ETA: If newbie cachers do realise they're supposed to move the TB along it's obviously sufficiently unclear just how to do it that at least some of the time logs appear that say things like "Took travel bug TB1234", later followed by a log that includes "Left travel bug TB1234" - not only do they write the tracking code in plain text for anyone to use/abuse but because they haven't correctly logged the move the site thinks the bug is in the previous cache. The inevitable result is some people recording "bug not present" until someone else grabs it from where they found it. Or, if they didn't record where they found it, they end up apparently picking it up from the cache that's reported as having the bug missing.

 

Even with the wording on the TB tag many geocoins have no such wording, and it seems to have been standard practise for a while to release copies of coins into the wild because they get stolen. Looking at the few geocoins I have left none of them say anything like "Don't keep me" on them.

Edited by team tisri
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I have been having lots of issues with the frappies (free app). Hey names get started somehow!!! Anyway, bad logs, say they find and don't, at least no log signed and unable to communicate with these people is just the tip of the iceberg . I just downloaded the app to check it out. Not impressed at all. It has some videos also kind of lame. Any kid with a smart phone can do this it surly should be limited to adults. Not that all adults act like adults. Also it should last 14 days (or some reasonable time). And then have to purchase the paid app. I may have to make all my caches premium just so they can't be viewed by members and the frappies.

 

It's not all "frappies" that do that. I met two of your criteria (13 year old child and intro user) and I don't see myself ruining the hobby. I have found 71 caches in a few months and well, quite frankly, I don't think I will stop for a long time. But, I do not have as much money to spend on the full app or premium membership. I feel content with the intro but I guess I have never tasted "true" geocaching without the full app. Just don't generalize, please.

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I met two of your criteria (13 year old child and intro user) and I don't see myself ruining the hobby.

 

I think discriminating against kids due to their age is stupid in this.

I’ve seen kids behave as better cachers than adults. Even that ADHD kid

around here realised he was being stupid initially, got better, and said

sorry to those whom he annoyed in his first few weeks. (Incidentally,

rich parenthood, so he was PM right from the start.)

 

So please, BraillerCD, re-think what you wrote.

 

Now, hi crazypig. You do not need to become a PM for geocaching well.

I’ve been around for about a decade, on several sites, and only very

recently (after some argument with opencaching) decided to buy myself

the PM. But as Basic Member, with a valid eMail address, there are

no concerns against you, I can assure you!

 

As for the intro app: the problem with it is, again, the people and

the lack of introduction (heh…) and communication. If you are a

versed geocacher, you can use the intro app with no problem, except

you’re castrating yourself by using it as you don’t see all the

caches. (That being said, the Groundspeak apps aren’t really good.

I can recommend a combination of Cachewolf + Cachebox for Windows

Mobile (not Windows Phone), and a friend recommends the c:geo

nightly builds (not the release versions!) for Android. Only if

you’re on iPhone or, Gods beware, Windows Phone, I know of no

alternative that’s better than Groundspeak’s. Many geocaching

applications have features that help you to cache better, such

as bearing/distance to waypoint calculation, an advanced calculator

or even a mystery solve tool, better offline use, etc.)

 

The problem here is not “geocachers who use the intro app” but

“people who stumble upon the intro app and then approach caches”.

 

Hope this clears up things.

 

I looked at a few of your cache logs, and I think you’re doing fine ☻

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I think discriminating against kids due to their age is stupid in this.

 

Tell that to Groundspeak:

 

C. Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

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Ah well, I’m known for being a bit of a USA critic, but that’s not the topic here.

 

Besides, this is just about using Groundspeak’s services; crazypig *is* 13, and anyone younger can either go with someone older or, well, decide USA law doesn’t apply to them and cheat, which too may do “anyway” (actually something I’d *not* suggest, just something I know from e.g. Facebook users).

 

The basis here is actually “child protection online”. This has nothing to do with thinking kids too young for geocaching. If Groundspeak would not bar people younger than 13 by their terms of use, they’d have immense liabilities, have to monitor their site, etc. so this is actually reasonable of them.

 

I’d suggest for newbie cachers (of any age) to go with someone older / more experienced at first, anyway.

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The basis here is actually “child protection online”. This has nothing to do with thinking kids too young for geocaching. If Groundspeak would not bar people younger than 13 by their terms of use, they’d have immense liabilities, have to monitor their site, etc. so this is actually reasonable of them.

 

So it's NOT stupid to discriminate on the basis of age if the law requires it?

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The basis here is actually “child protection online”. This has nothing to do with thinking kids too young for geocaching. If Groundspeak would not bar people younger than 13 by their terms of use, they’d have immense liabilities, have to monitor their site, etc. so this is actually reasonable of them.

 

So it's NOT stupid to discriminate on the basis of age if the law requires it?

 

Laws can be stupid, too. But I meant: it’s stupid to discriminate between geocachers (purely) based on age. The COPPA restriction is not for geocaching but for “access to Groundspeak’s services”. You can go caching without that, you know. I’m not allowed to say more here.

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And also, I guess the people who have never visited the website are just inexperienced with what to do. I wouldn't necessarily say they are "ruining" it

 

Just because we've been replying for 22 pages, doesn't mean we necessarily agree with the person who started the thread and made up the title that they are killing the hobby. They could never kill it, they can only see a limited number of "easy" caches.

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I know it's not all kids and surely there are many uninformed adults also messing things up. I see the keyword as "UNINFORMED" . This is in terms of usage and I can't imagine that this is being adheared to.

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I know this is just legal crap but this was groundspeaks way of protecting themselves . That is on both apps and on the website.

If they have this clause then there should be an adults email required. Then if an adult or a kid does something wrong at least you might be able to set them straight

 

Anyway I'm done complaining . I don't see any changes coming unless Groundspeak thinks it won't hurt profits. This is all about the money. But it will hurt the game if it's not overhauled .

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I know it's not all kids and surely there are many uninformed adults also messing things up. I see the keyword as "UNINFORMED" . This is in terms of usage and I can't imagine that this is being adheared to.

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I know this is just legal crap but this was groundspeaks way of protecting themselves . That is on both apps and on the website.

If they have this clause then there should be an adults email required. Then if an adult or a kid does something wrong at least you might be able to set them straight

 

Anyway I'm done complaining . I don't see any changes coming unless Groundspeak thinks it won't hurt profits. This is all about the money. But it will hurt the game if it's not overhauled .

 

I liked it better back in the day when it was more of an adult game. Now it's super easy for a preteen/tweenie to try cache ownership via the intro app. So many preteens have short attention spans. What they think is cool this week is forgotten the next. Which is what kids do. And because their travel is limited to a few blocks from home or school on a bicycle, so is their access or knowledge of more interesting locations. Their containers of choice are usually whatever container mom is throwing out - usually disposable food containers (yogurt tub, margarine tub, ziploc disposable container). Back when you had to purchase a handheld dedicated GPS unit to play, kids had to play with their parents. Hiding a cache meant a parent/guardian/adult was usually involved.

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I know it's not all kids and surely there are many uninformed adults also messing things up. I see the keyword as "UNINFORMED" . This is in terms of usage and I can't imagine that this is being adheared to.

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I know this is just legal crap but this was groundspeaks way of protecting themselves . That is on both apps and on the website.

If they have this clause then there should be an adults email required. Then if an adult or a kid does something wrong at least you might be able to set them straight

 

Anyway I'm done complaining . I don't see any changes coming unless Groundspeak thinks it won't hurt profits. This is all about the money. But it will hurt the game if it's not overhauled .

 

I liked it better back in the day when it was more of an adult game. Now it's super easy for a preteen/tweenie to try cache ownership via the intro app. So many preteens have short attention spans. What they think is cool this week is forgotten the next. Which is what kids do. And because their travel is limited to a few blocks from home or school on a bicycle, so is their access or knowledge of more interesting locations. Their containers of choice are usually whatever container mom is throwing out - usually disposable food containers (yogurt tub, margarine tub, ziploc disposable container). Back when you had to purchase a handheld dedicated GPS unit to play, kids had to play with their parents. Hiding a cache meant a parent/guardian/adult was usually involved.

I have seen this among children who have cached with their parents, I even found out a few of them were hoarding trackables. I will speak though, in defense of myself. I have never hidden just a pill bottle, a peanut butter jar, or even just an ammo can. All of mine are creative hides i made at home with the tools available to me.

 

As for what can be done about the intro app, the only thing I can think of to help make things better is having a cap of how many caches can be found with it, before they have to buy it for 99 cents.

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I know it's not all kids and surely there are many uninformed adults also messing things up. I see the keyword as "UNINFORMED" . This is in terms of usage and I can't imagine that this is being adheared to.

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I know this is just legal crap but this was groundspeaks way of protecting themselves . That is on both apps and on the website.

If they have this clause then there should be an adults email required. Then if an adult or a kid does something wrong at least you might be able to set them straight

 

Anyway I'm done complaining . I don't see any changes coming unless Groundspeak thinks it won't hurt profits. This is all about the money. But it will hurt the game if it's not overhauled .

 

I liked it better back in the day when it was more of an adult game. Now it's super easy for a preteen/tweenie to try cache ownership via the intro app. So many preteens have short attention spans. What they think is cool this week is forgotten the next. Which is what kids do. And because their travel is limited to a few blocks from home or school on a bicycle, so is their access or knowledge of more interesting locations. Their containers of choice are usually whatever container mom is throwing out - usually disposable food containers (yogurt tub, margarine tub, ziploc disposable container). Back when you had to purchase a handheld dedicated GPS unit to play, kids had to play with their parents. Hiding a cache meant a parent/guardian/adult was usually involved.

I have seen this among children who have cached with their parents, I even found out a few of them were hoarding trackables. I will speak though, in defense of myself. I have never hidden just a pill bottle, a peanut butter jar, or even just an ammo can. All of mine are creative hides i made at home with the tools available to me.

 

As for what can be done about the intro app, the only thing I can think of to help make things better is having a cap of how many caches can be found with it, before they have to buy it for 99 cents.

 

I don't get this. Are you guys really saying that just because I'm a teen, I shouldn't geocache? The generalization is real. Sure, some teens do just bounce from one hobby to the next, but the ones that do stick with it, they want to learn more and actually cache. I don't usually have money, so I cannot purchase the full app or premium membership just yet. But maybe soon. I do think the intro app should have more information on it though

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Ok one last try. I want to protect my caches the best I can. I want to be able to contact catchers, either through their own emails or there parents. As stated before, there are no garrantees with that either, but it's something and I think I should be able to if they can go to my caches. For me the alternative is to make all my caches PMO caches. They don't appear on the intro or the standard app if you aren't premium members. I would hate to do that. Why is a email so much to ask for.

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I know it's not all kids and surely there are many uninformed adults also messing things up. I see the keyword as "UNINFORMED" . This is in terms of usage and I can't imagine that this is being adheared to.

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I know this is just legal crap but this was groundspeaks way of protecting themselves . That is on both apps and on the website.

If they have this clause then there should be an adults email required. Then if an adult or a kid does something wrong at least you might be able to set them straight

 

Anyway I'm done complaining . I don't see any changes coming unless Groundspeak thinks it won't hurt profits. This is all about the money. But it will hurt the game if it's not overhauled .

 

I liked it better back in the day when it was more of an adult game. Now it's super easy for a preteen/tweenie to try cache ownership via the intro app. So many preteens have short attention spans. What they think is cool this week is forgotten the next. Which is what kids do. And because their travel is limited to a few blocks from home or school on a bicycle, so is their access or knowledge of more interesting locations. Their containers of choice are usually whatever container mom is throwing out - usually disposable food containers (yogurt tub, margarine tub, ziploc disposable container). Back when you had to purchase a handheld dedicated GPS unit to play, kids had to play with their parents. Hiding a cache meant a parent/guardian/adult was usually involved.

I have seen this among children who have cached with their parents, I even found out a few of them were hoarding trackables. I will speak though, in defense of myself. I have never hidden just a pill bottle, a peanut butter jar, or even just an ammo can. All of mine are creative hides i made at home with the tools available to me.

 

As for what can be done about the intro app, the only thing I can think of to help make things better is having a cap of how many caches can be found with it, before they have to buy it for 99 cents.

 

I don't get this. Are you guys really saying that just because I'm a teen, I shouldn't geocache? The generalization is real. Sure, some teens do just bounce from one hobby to the next, but the ones that do stick with it, they want to learn more and actually cache. I don't usually have money, so I cannot purchase the full app or premium membership just yet. But maybe soon. I do think the intro app should have more information on it though

Actually, if you were to abide by the terms of use, you shouldn't even be in the forums without parent supervision.

You said in another thread you were thirteen.

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1411860087[/url]' post='5432465']
1411859027[/url]' post='5432461']
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I know it's not all kids and surely there are many uninformed adults also messing things up. I see the keyword as "UNINFORMED" . This is in terms of usage and I can't imagine that this is being adheared to.

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I know this is just legal crap but this was groundspeaks way of protecting themselves . That is on both apps and on the website.

If they have this clause then there should be an adults email required. Then if an adult or a kid does something wrong at least you might be able to set them straight

 

Anyway I'm done complaining . I don't see any changes coming unless Groundspeak thinks it won't hurt profits. This is all about the money. But it will hurt the game if it's not overhauled .

 

I liked it better back in the day when it was more of an adult game. Now it's super easy for a preteen/tweenie to try cache ownership via the intro app. So many preteens have short attention spans. What they think is cool this week is forgotten the next. Which is what kids do. And because their travel is limited to a few blocks from home or school on a bicycle, so is their access or knowledge of more interesting locations. Their containers of choice are usually whatever container mom is throwing out - usually disposable food containers (yogurt tub, margarine tub, ziploc disposable container). Back when you had to purchase a handheld dedicated GPS unit to play, kids had to play with their parents. Hiding a cache meant a parent/guardian/adult was usually involved.

I have seen this among children who have cached with their parents, I even found out a few of them were hoarding trackables. I will speak though, in defense of myself. I have never hidden just a pill bottle, a peanut butter jar, or even just an ammo can. All of mine are creative hides i made at home with the tools available to me.

 

As for what can be done about the intro app, the only thing I can think of to help make things better is having a cap of how many caches can be found with it, before they have to buy it for 99 cents.

 

I don't get this. Are you guys really saying that just because I'm a teen, I shouldn't geocache? The generalization is real. Sure, some teens do just bounce from one hobby to the next, but the ones that do stick with it, they want to learn more and actually cache. I don't usually have money, so I cannot purchase the full app or premium membership just yet. But maybe soon. I do think the intro app should have more information on it though

 

You can cache, but with parental supervision. They should know that you've set up an account.they need to understand what geocaching is and what they are giving permission for you to do. If you hide caches they should understand the responsibilities involved and see to it that you understand and abide by the guidelines.

 

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You can cache, but with parental supervision. They should know that you've set up an account.they need to understand what geocaching is and what they are giving permission for you to do. If you hide caches they should understand the responsibilities involved and see to it that you understand and abide by the guidelines.

 

And I do. My mom was the one to mention this in the first place but she didn't enjoy it as much as me after a while. They [parents] helped me place and read the guidelines for placing caches. They know what's up, they just aren't as into it.

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And I do. My mom was the one to mention this in the first place but she didn't enjoy it as much as me after a while. They [parents] helped me place and read the guidelines for placing caches. They know what's up, they just aren't as into it.

 

Crazypig88 I think it it's great that your parents did that for you. That is what it's supposed to be. Educated and informed. And you can be contacted through the web site. Which again is my point if you posted a log on a cache and I had an issue with it I could ask you to edit it. With the app a unceremoniously delete it and the user gets mad. I should not have to use the logs to have a two way conversation with a cacher. Again kudos to your parents for taking the time to teach you

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You can cache, but with parental supervision. They should know that you've set up an account.they need to understand what geocaching is and what they are giving permission for you to do. If you hide caches they should understand the responsibilities involved and see to it that you understand and abide by the guidelines.

 

And I do. My mom was the one to mention this in the first place but she didn't enjoy it as much as me after a while. They [parents] helped me place and read the guidelines for placing caches. They know what's up, they just aren't as into it.

 

Excellent! Out of the dozens and dozens of "kid cachers" in my area over the years, the only one I ever got to know (because he became a long term cacher, and attended events) had a similar situation, where the parents knew all about Geocaching and that he was doing it; they just were too busy to "get into it" themselves.

 

Believe me, us old timers can pretty much tell if there is supervision or not on a kids hide. Like for example, the kid, confirmed to be a 13 year old, who took one of my challenge caches with him, and hid it completely intact as his own cache in a park 3 miles away I'm going to say was not supervised. :ph34r:

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I liked it better back in the day when it was more of an adult game. Now it's super easy for a preteen/tweenie to try cache ownership via the intro app. So many preteens have short attention spans. What they think is cool this week is forgotten the next. Which is what kids do. And because their travel is limited to a few blocks from home or school on a bicycle, so is their access or knowledge of more interesting locations. Their containers of choice are usually whatever container mom is throwing out - usually disposable food containers (yogurt tub, margarine tub, ziploc disposable container). Back when you had to purchase a handheld dedicated GPS unit to play, kids had to play with their parents. Hiding a cache meant a parent/guardian/adult was usually involved.

 

But somehow broken plastic kids toys, geared toward 10 year olds, have seemingly always existed as trade items.

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I know it's not all kids and surely there are many uninformed adults also messing things up. I see the keyword as "UNINFORMED" . This is in terms of usage and I can't imagine that this is being adheared to.

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I know this is just legal crap but this was groundspeaks way of protecting themselves . That is on both apps and on the website.

If they have this clause then there should be an adults email required. Then if an adult or a kid does something wrong at least you might be able to set them straight

 

Anyway I'm done complaining . I don't see any changes coming unless Groundspeak thinks it won't hurt profits. This is all about the money. But it will hurt the game if it's not overhauled .

 

I liked it better back in the day when it was more of an adult game. Now it's super easy for a preteen/tweenie to try cache ownership via the intro app. So many preteens have short attention spans. What they think is cool this week is forgotten the next. Which is what kids do. And because their travel is limited to a few blocks from home or school on a bicycle, so is their access or knowledge of more interesting locations. Their containers of choice are usually whatever container mom is throwing out - usually disposable food containers (yogurt tub, margarine tub, ziploc disposable container). Back when you had to purchase a handheld dedicated GPS unit to play, kids had to play with their parents. Hiding a cache meant a parent/guardian/adult was usually involved.

I have seen this among children who have cached with their parents, I even found out a few of them were hoarding trackables. I will speak though, in defense of myself. I have never hidden just a pill bottle, a peanut butter jar, or even just an ammo can. All of mine are creative hides i made at home with the tools available to me.

 

As for what can be done about the intro app, the only thing I can think of to help make things better is having a cap of how many caches can be found with it, before they have to buy it for 99 cents.

 

I don't get this. Are you guys really saying that just because I'm a teen, I shouldn't geocache? The generalization is real. Sure, some teens do just bounce from one hobby to the next, but the ones that do stick with it, they want to learn more and actually cache. I don't usually have money, so I cannot purchase the full app or premium membership just yet. But maybe soon. I do think the intro app should have more information on it though

 

I think the problem here is the way logic doesn't reverse very well.

 

To say "most of the cachers causing problems are intro app users, mostly teenagers with the attention span of a gnat" doesn't mean that everyone who uses the intro app causes problems, or that all teenagers have the attention span of a gnat, or that all teenagers cause problems.

 

If you're about finding geocaches, playing the game the way it was supposed to be played, moving trackables, rehiding caches etc, then I don't think anyone would say you shouldn't be playing the game. Whether you're using a cheapie GPS or a borrowed smartphone or the top-of-the-range device you bought from your trust fund doesn't really matter.

 

The key difference is that the people who take the time to do a little research into what the game is about are unlikely to cause problems, while the ones who just download a free app figuring they've got half an hour to while away and don't understand the game are likely to do all sorts of things that will cause problems. Whether they believe the idea is to find the cache and then hide it somewhere else, or they think the stuff inside the cache is the prize for finding it, or if they just don't understand the concept of stealth in busy areas, they are likely to create problems with caches disappearing.

 

If the intro app let you find a dozen caches and then you had to pay 99c for a more functional version it's hard to see anyone really saying they couldn't afford it. I'd expect to pay more than 99c for a drink and a snack on a geocaching run.

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I know several geocachers who were geocaching teenagers just a few years ago. Some caches with their parents, others took up the game on their own. Anyone who plays the game with respect for other cachers will always be welcome, regardless of age.

And I think the circle this thread has made in 2 pages still has the same common thread as what has been covered ad nauseum over the other 20: It isn't age, location, or "Intro App users" that are the "problem"; rather, it's the uninformed and un-contactable people.

 

Some of the uninformed group can learn and become informed (like a teen who is now a solid participant in a geocaching community, e.g.). Some of the un-contactable...well...there's the problem.

 

At least a teen with an account that is verified is contactable in cases where an issue with a hide/find, etc are found. Additionally, those who are "verified users" can be coached, provided with links for help, and reached out to to welcome and invite to join in the greater community of the game.

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I know several geocachers who were geocaching teenagers just a few years ago. Some caches with their parents, others took up the game on their own. Anyone who plays the game with respect for other cachers will always be welcome, regardless of age.

And I think the circle this thread has made in 2 pages still has the same common thread as what has been covered ad nauseum over the other 20: It isn't age, location, or "Intro App users" that are the "problem"; rather, it's the uninformed and un-contactable people.

 

Some of the uninformed group can learn and become informed (like a teen who is now a solid participant in a geocaching community, e.g.). Some of the un-contactable...well...there's the problem.

 

At least a teen with an account that is verified is contactable in cases where an issue with a hide/find, etc are found. Additionally, those who are "verified users" can be coached, provided with links for help, and reached out to to welcome and invite to join in the greater community of the game.

 

To be honest, all of the "problem" geocachers I have ever dealt with personally were middle aged.

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I know several geocachers who were geocaching teenagers just a few years ago. Some caches with their parents, others took up the game on their own. Anyone who plays the game with respect for other cachers will always be welcome, regardless of age.

And I think the circle this thread has made in 2 pages still has the same common thread as what has been covered ad nauseum over the other 20: It isn't age, location, or "Intro App users" that are the "problem"; rather, it's the uninformed and un-contactable people.

 

Some of the uninformed group can learn and become informed (like a teen who is now a solid participant in a geocaching community, e.g.). Some of the un-contactable...well...there's the problem.

 

At least a teen with an account that is verified is contactable in cases where an issue with a hide/find, etc are found. Additionally, those who are "verified users" can be coached, provided with links for help, and reached out to to welcome and invite to join in the greater community of the game.

 

To be honest, all of the "problem" geocachers I have ever dealt with personally were middle aged.

:laughing: Ain't that the truth...

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I know several geocachers who were geocaching teenagers just a few years ago. Some caches with their parents, others took up the game on their own. Anyone who plays the game with respect for other cachers will always be welcome, regardless of age.

And I think the circle this thread has made in 2 pages still has the same common thread as what has been covered ad nauseum over the other 20: It isn't age, location, or "Intro App users" that are the "problem"; rather, it's the uninformed and un-contactable people.

 

Some of the uninformed group can learn and become informed (like a teen who is now a solid participant in a geocaching community, e.g.). Some of the un-contactable...well...there's the problem.

 

At least a teen with an account that is verified is contactable in cases where an issue with a hide/find, etc are found. Additionally, those who are "verified users" can be coached, provided with links for help, and reached out to to welcome and invite to join in the greater community of the game.

 

To be honest, all of the "problem" geocachers I have ever dealt with personally were middle aged.

:laughing: Ain't that the truth...

 

That's not to say that *all* middle aged geocachers are problems. Some of them are quite conscientious and put out good caches, so I try not to judge them all based on the misbehaving ones.

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I know several geocachers who were geocaching teenagers just a few years ago. Some caches with their parents, others took up the game on their own. Anyone who plays the game with respect for other cachers will always be welcome, regardless of age.

And I think the circle this thread has made in 2 pages still has the same common thread as what has been covered ad nauseum over the other 20: It isn't age, location, or "Intro App users" that are the "problem"; rather, it's the uninformed and un-contactable people.

 

Some of the uninformed group can learn and become informed (like a teen who is now a solid participant in a geocaching community, e.g.). Some of the un-contactable...well...there's the problem.

 

At least a teen with an account that is verified is contactable in cases where an issue with a hide/find, etc are found. Additionally, those who are "verified users" can be coached, provided with links for help, and reached out to to welcome and invite to join in the greater community of the game.

 

To be honest, all of the "problem" geocachers I have ever dealt with personally were middle aged.

:laughing: Ain't that the truth...

 

That's not to say that *all* middle aged geocachers are problems. Some of them are quite conscientious and put out good caches, so I try not to judge them all based on the misbehaving ones.

and yes, I feel that, based on how people (mis)interpret things on this forum, you and I might need to have a "disclaimer" like that after joking a bit.

 

To point, I too have had more good than bad interactions with other cachers. Yet, it is the "bad" that sticks more firmly in my mind--I just want to find a way to turn the "bad" stuff into "good" stuff. That goes for this topic: I still think that Groundspeak has an opportunity to do better by the new users. This means validation for accounts, and integrating more clearly the guidelines, FAQ, and "helpful tips" into the website, the Apps, etc.

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I don't believe that INTRO APP users are killing the hobby. After all, each one of us was a newbie at one time or another. My problem is new, inexperienced cachers hiding caches before they have enough experience to understand what makes a good hide. This has always been as issue, but it seems to be more of an issue now that it is so much easier to get involved in geocaching. Nothing like reading "Our family has been caching for over a week. We decided it was time to hide our own..." I really think there should be some sort of guideline regarding the number of finds on an account, before they can actually hide a cache.

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I don't believe that INTRO APP users are killing the hobby. After all, each one of us was a newbie at one time or another. My problem is new, inexperienced cachers hiding caches before they have enough experience to understand what makes a good hide. This has always been as issue, but it seems to be more of an issue now that it is so much easier to get involved in geocaching. Nothing like reading "Our family has been caching for over a week. We decided it was time to hide our own..." I really think there should be some sort of guideline regarding the number of finds on an account, before they can actually hide a cache.

 

I'm less bothered by newcomers to the game putting out caches which might be less than fantastic - possibly because they haven't read the guidelines than I am by caches that I own getting trashed / going missing as a result of newcomers to the game - who haven't read the guidelines because they don't even know that the guidelines exist.

 

Just my 2c.

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I don't believe that INTRO APP users are killing the hobby. After all, each one of us was a newbie at one time or another. My problem is new, inexperienced cachers hiding caches before they have enough experience to understand what makes a good hide. This has always been as issue, but it seems to be more of an issue now that it is so much easier to get involved in geocaching. Nothing like reading "Our family has been caching for over a week. We decided it was time to hide our own..." I really think there should be some sort of guideline regarding the number of finds on an account, before they can actually hide a cache.

 

I'm less bothered by newcomers to the game putting out caches which might be less than fantastic - possibly because they haven't read the guidelines than I am by caches that I own getting trashed / going missing as a result of newcomers to the game - who haven't read the guidelines because they don't even know that the guidelines exist.

 

Just my 2c.

Well said.

 

As the cost of entry has continualy fallen, newcomers have, on average, been less and less informed. I think the intro app has crossed an invisible line, making the cost of entry too low, creating too many newcomers that are 100% uninformed.

 

When I entered, I was an early smartphone app user (2009). $ cost to me? $0. But there was time and effort cost trying to figure out what exactly the game was, and how to play it. The into app puts the $ cost at zero, as well as the time and effor cost at zero.

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