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INTRO APP users are killing the hobby


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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

 

Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

 

They are probably scratching their heads wondering why someone with 17 finds over 3 years is so animated over this issue. :D

No disrespect to cacheman9, but I'm thinking the same thing. :laughing: The moderators are not paid employees. You should contact Groundspeak directly with complaints. :D

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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

...I think Intro App users are simply an easy target to blame for any problems. Trouble is that all these problems existed long before there was an Intro App.

 

Groundspeak may have statistics to show these problems are worse since the Intro App or worse in areas with higher numbers of Intro App users. I don't suspect that will be shared. All I see is speculation or anecdotes. Hey, there's a new group to blame for all our woes.

 

There are a couple of issues here.

 

Intro app users are separated from the rest of the geocaching community. This has the potential of setting up a dangerous US vs THEM mentality. What is frustrating is that there is no way for those of us who want to reach out to Intro app users to do so. We don't even know if the Intro app users are being made aware that there is a geocaching community that is willing to warmly welcome them in and offer mentoring. How will they know to seek us out of they don't know that we are here?

 

Perception is reality. One of my mentors told me this and it rings true in many circumstances, including this one. The perception is that Intro app users don't care about the hobby or the environment. The reality is that the Intro app is very successful in exposing a lot of people to geocaching. While it is bring a lot of people who respect the hobby and the environment it is also bring those who don't. The more successful the Intro app is the more of both type of people will show up. But that only increases the number of people who use apply the scorch-the-earth style to geocaching. In fact, it reenforces the perception that Intro app users use a scorched-earth method to find geocaches. The Intro app appears to be a victim of it's own success.

 

So, maybe, it would help to have a way to prevent overly casual use of the Intro app. Make the Intro app cost something to download. It can a very little amount, like 99 cents. If I see a free app and I think I'm even a little bit interested I'll download it. If it turns out that I don't like it I can always remove it. If the app needs to be bought, even if it is something as little as 99 cents, I at least give it a little thought and maybe even read some reviews to see if this is what I really want. When my kids ask me to download an app and it's free a might glance at the description quickly but I don't think I've ever not allowed them to download a free app. If the app cost money, even 99 cents, I take a closer look. If it turns out that it is something I don't think it is appropriate from their age or that they will get board with it quickly I tell them no. If it is something that I think we should be doing together then I tell them to wait until we have time together before downloading the app.

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I don't believe too many will be rushing out and placing higher terrain (difficulty maybe) just because of this app.

 

Nor do I but there are some cache owners who would rather not have their cache listing viable to Intro app users. At least not until the issues with the Intro app is fixed. Those CO's are opting to make their cache listings PMO. Is this really a good option? Maybe for the short term but what impact will this have if this becomes a long term solution?

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I don't believe too many will be rushing out and placing higher terrain (difficulty maybe) just because of this app.

Nor do I but there are some cache owners who would rather not have their cache listing viable to Intro app users. At least not until the issues with the Intro app is fixed. Those CO's are opting to make their cache listings PMO. Is this really a good option?

Short term? Yes.

 

Maybe for the short term but what impact will this have if this becomes a long term solution?

Long term? US vs THEM. "Intro App" should never be mentioned on gc.com. It's virtually irrelevant to the majority of users.

More important to this problem, in the long run, is:

1) better training of new users (device/app is irrelevant) and community support of these users (require email or provide private contact method)

2) making it harder for 'bad' users to cause problems (geocaching experience is irrelevant)

3) providing a way to locate appropriate 'introductory/beginner' caches to find (device/app should be irrelevant)

These three points are not intrinsically connected.

Edited by thebruce0
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I wish that cache owners were given more information about the intro app. I don't care enough to download the intro app and play around with it and I suspect many others feel the same way. So a lot of the "features" are unknown. From what I read here I though that the intro app displays all of caches nearest to the intro app user except for PMO caches. Now I learned that higher D/T rating caches aren't displayed for intro app users. Do we know at what level the cut off is? Is it just D or just T or combination of both? This information would be very helpful when deciding what D/T ratings to give new caches.
I've added the info I have to Cacheopedia:

http://www.cacheopedia.com/wiki/Geocaching_Intro

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DO people agree with me when I say "DOWN WITH THE INTRO APP!" ?

 

No. No we don't agree with you. Have you read this whole thread?

 

DO people agree with me when I say "DOWN WITH THE INTRO APP!" ?

 

NO, I think you are on your own here. What people are saying is "Make the intro app better. Here are our suggestions."

 

^^this

 

 

Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

 

Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

 

They are probably scratching their heads wondering why someone with 17 finds over 3 years is so animated over this issue. :D

 

^And this. I thought the same thing. Chillax, dude...the geo world isn't coming to an end due to a free intro app.

Edited by JesandTodd
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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

...I think Intro App users are simply an easy target to blame for any problems. Trouble is that all these problems existed long before there was an Intro App.

 

Groundspeak may have statistics to show these problems are worse since the Intro App or worse in areas with higher numbers of Intro App users. I don't suspect that will be shared. All I see is speculation or anecdotes. Hey, there's a new group to blame for all our woes.

 

There are a couple of issues here.

 

Intro app users are separated from the rest of the geocaching community. This has the potential of setting up a dangerous US vs THEM mentality. What is frustrating is that there is no way for those of us who want to reach out to Intro app users to do so. We don't even know if the Intro app users are being made aware that there is a geocaching community that is willing to warmly welcome them in and offer mentoring. How will they know to seek us out of they don't know that we are here?

 

Perception is reality. One of my mentors told me this and it rings true in many circumstances, including this one. The perception is that Intro app users don't care about the hobby or the environment. The reality is that the Intro app is very successful in exposing a lot of people to geocaching. While it is bring a lot of people who respect the hobby and the environment it is also bring those who don't. The more successful the Intro app is the more of both type of people will show up. But that only increases the number of people who use apply the scorch-the-earth style to geocaching. In fact, it reenforces the perception that Intro app users use a scorched-earth method to find geocaches. The Intro app appears to be a victim of it's own success.

 

So, maybe, it would help to have a way to prevent overly casual use of the Intro app. Make the Intro app cost something to download. It can a very little amount, like 99 cents. If I see a free app and I think I'm even a little bit interested I'll download it. If it turns out that I don't like it I can always remove it. If the app needs to be bought, even if it is something as little as 99 cents, I at least give it a little thought and maybe even read some reviews to see if this is what I really want. When my kids ask me to download an app and it's free a might glance at the description quickly but I don't think I've ever not allowed them to download a free app. If the app cost money, even 99 cents, I take a closer look. If it turns out that it is something I don't think it is appropriate from their age or that they will get board with it quickly I tell them no. If it is something that I think we should be doing together then I tell them to wait until we have time together before downloading the app.

I said it a handful of pages back:

 

3 stages of apps:

-Free App: Only allows certain number of finds (say, like 5) before it "expires". Users are then led to the website to learn more and to sign up.

-99 cent App: Increases the amount of caches that can be found, but is limited to non-PMO caches, etc. REQUIRES validated geocaching.com account.

-$10 App: As is...but requires a validated geocaching.com account.

 

The first two apps have more build in links and how-tos. A nag screen should appear in them to remind them to go to the website to learn more, and also to upgrade.

 

The bottom line is that the website needs to be hard-wired to require validation, and creation of an account on an App should require a valid account from the website.

 

Not unlike many other apps that require existing account info, this one can as well. Think of banking apps, airline flight apps, etc. All of those require that you enter valid credentials to use them. Once the loophole is closed at geocaching.com for valid emails and accounts, then we can see integration into the app.

 

As an aside, did anyone else notice that there is a position open at Groundspeak for an iPhone App developer?

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Of course, cache owners could just put a link to a short @gogeoaching video (like this one on youtube) on the top of their pages if they are worried about new users. I suspect any new user would fairly quickly open and watch the video, which is better than being completely in the dark. I just quickly picked this one, you can pick or create your own.

 

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Of course, cache owners could just put a link to a short @gogeoaching video (like this one on youtube) on the top of their pages if they are worried about new users. I suspect any new user would fairly quickly open and watch the video, which is better than being completely in the dark. I just quickly picked this one, you can pick or create your own.

 

But the app doesn't require you to read the cache description, recent logs, or hint. One can just click "Navigate", and go find it without knowing anything about the game or the cache itself.

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Th video isn't translating well on my iPad (ie, I can't see it) but I don't watch videos in the field. Would take forever to load.

 

However, it would be nice if you *had* to watch a video before the app worked (as an into video for the first time you open up the app)

 

A MUCH better idea than expecting every cache owner to add the video to their pages - 10 out of 10 for shrewd thinking B)

 

Of course this STILL doesn't get away from the fact that Groundspeak have effectively given free access to our caches to people who know nothing about the game and who we can't even contact.

 

It's a bit like handing over your email address to a website that promises not to disclose it to third parties - only to find they did exactly that just because it suited them.

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Understood, but it helps, and the problem can't be nearly as bad as the complainers here want others to believe. I just don't buy it that this is a rash problem that needs ointment. I personally can see requiring an email, but I hate email and pretty much ignore it anyways, so what is to say others won't just use a fake or spam only account if it is required.

 

BTW, I'm generally voting for just leave it the way it is.

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Understood, but it helps, and the problem can't be nearly as bad as the complainers here want others to believe. I just don't buy it that this is a rash problem that needs ointment. I personally can see requiring an email, but I hate email and pretty much ignore it anyways, so what is to say others won't just use a fake or spam only account if it is required.

 

BTW, I'm generally voting for just leave it the way it is.

I think you're looking at the "problem" all wrong.

 

It isn't that newbies are bad. It isn't that an Intro App is bad.

 

It's that there is clear room for improvement, and there are positive crowdsourced options coming out of this discussion. Leaving the Intro App "the way it is" would ignore key pieces of any gameplay--learning the rules. (Or guidelines, as you pointed out in another thread) The problem is, if we look at this game as a series of grey-area, wishy-washy, diluted guidelines, there is no order to this game.

 

There was a "code of conduct" back in the day that was widely accepted as the norm. Now, with the game growing so large, you can't guarantee that so many people will play the same way. There needs to be some kind of order to keep the game going in the way it was intended, and so it doesn't collapse on itself.

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The bottom line is that the website needs to be hard-wired to require validation, and creation of an account on an App should require a valid account from the website.

 

Not unlike many other apps that require existing account info, this one can as well. Think of banking apps, airline flight apps, etc. All of those require that you enter valid credentials to use them. Once the loophole is closed at geocaching.com for valid emails and accounts, then we can see integration into the app.

 

DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!!

 

This would all but eliminate the inability to contact a new cacher, which seems to be the main thing we all want. And it would increase the number of registered users, which is something most internet-based enterprises are after.

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Funny, I just posted elsewhere about how I suspected this might be a cause of a problem I've noticed since getting back into geocaching ...travelbugs are almost never in caches that show them containing a TB. Right or wrong, I attributed it to someone hearing about GC, downloading the app, finding a few caches and picking up a TB as a souvenir along the way, then forgetting about GC altogether.

 

The problem is that it creates temporary players with no investment in the game who don't understand the rules or anything about the GC community. It allows new cachers to bypass everything they need to know about how to enjoy and contribute to the game.

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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

 

Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

 

They are probably scratching their heads wondering why someone with 17 finds over 3 years is so animated over this issue. :D

 

There comes the insult.

 

Well, you never want to go there, but in this case, it is somewhat relevant. :huh: Anyone remember that guy from New Jersey who only found 25 caches (and hadn't found one for several months when he was active here), and had never hid one, but would sit here and argue with us for hours on end about anything?

 

Really though, between you and the guy who is blaming an intro app user for throwing rocks all around his cache site (with no proof), you guys need to lighten up a little. You're really going to intensify the perceived persecution by some of the major "smartphone defenders" around here. :P

 

For the record, my only problem with smartphone Geocachers is, and only ever has been, the high incidence of lame logging, thumbed out in the field. Of course I agree with one of the major points in this thread that the intro app users absolutely should have to validate their accounts with a valid email address.

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Funny, I just posted elsewhere about how I suspected this might be a cause of a problem I've noticed since getting back into geocaching ...travelbugs are almost never in caches that show them containing a TB. Right or wrong, I attributed it to someone hearing about GC, downloading the app, finding a few caches and picking up a TB as a souvenir along the way, then forgetting about GC altogether.

 

The problem is that it creates temporary players with no investment in the game who don't understand the rules or anything about the GC community. It allows new cachers to bypass everything they need to know about how to enjoy and contribute to the game.

TB's have all but disappeared from the game. Three years ago when another company attempted to compete with Groundspeak with their own site made up mostly of gc geocaches and no way to log TB's. It has had to have an effect on geocaching and TB's. The other site has smartphone apps too, so don't let all of the blame fall on gc. Gc has real reviewers and moderators, the othe site don't, so big difference but same game same contents.

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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

 

Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

 

They are probably scratching their heads wondering why someone with 17 finds over 3 years is so animated over this issue. :D

 

There comes the insult.

 

Well, you never want to go there, but in this case, it is somewhat relevant. :huh: Anyone remember that guy from New Jersey who only found 25 caches (and hadn't found one for several months when he was active here), and had never hid one, but would sit here and argue with us for hours on end about anything?

 

Really though, between you and the guy who is blaming an intro app user for throwing rocks all around his cache site (with no proof), you guys need to lighten up a little. You're really going to intensify the perceived persecution by some of the major "smartphone defenders" around here. :P

 

For the record, my only problem with smartphone Geocachers is, and only ever has been, the high incidence of lame logging, thumbed out in the field. Of course I agree with one of the major points in this thread that the intro app users absolutely should have to validate their accounts with a valid email address.

 

Logging is just like everything else on here...people either do a great job on fit, or they don't. The smartphone plays little role with that.

 

For those of us who are way into our phones, we type away all day on that thing. It's not hard. I mean...geocaching or not, I'm typing like mad. You should see me txt...don't even need to look, even when I'm walking. Course, Siri makes it easy to speak my logs/txts/emails too. My point is, the smartphone doesn't inhibit lengthy logs...

 

I log all of my logs at GZ. Today, I had climbed a tall tree, froze my hands off digging though wet leaves, and bloodied my hands and knuckles with blackberry vines. (Hate.blackberries.)

 

Either way, my log was long winded...just like always.

 

http://coord.info/GLD2FMCQ

 

The *problem* is....newbies don't know they are supposed to elaborate more on logs. They think "tftc" is acceptable.

And just like GZ destruction, I see far, FAR more experienced cachers leave cut n paste logs, or tftc logs. I've even seen 'tftc' logs from lackeys!! Seriously....

 

Somewhere, buried deep in this discussion, someone offered a good suggestion to have the "logged from the into app" removed ,and instead, "please discuss your experience finding this geocache here" as a grayed out txt that disappears once you start typing.

 

Let's summarize the best parts of this thread!! (IMO)

 

Very limited free app-5 finds

$0.99 intro app.

Full app-remains unchanged

 

Must watch a "how to" video before any app is functional. If watching a video is to tiresome or difficult for newbies, then they will not commit to the game anyway.

 

***validated email addy required***

 

A supportive and welcoming communtiy to the newbies

 

Grayed out txt encouraging better logs

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Wow. Great conversation here and an excellent problem that needs fixing.

 

I've been Geocaching since 2008, however, I've only just gotten back into it and only have 10 found caches to my name and I would consider myself one of those "Noobs"...albeme a RESPONSIBLE Noob. I went to the website. I read the rules and treat all caches with the utmost respect and try to leave them better than I found them.

 

I started geocaching with the free intro version, which I later purchased the full version of, and yes, I used a smartphone. I got back into the hobby due to my recent purchase of a Garmin GPSMAP 62ST. I discovered that when sending the geocaches to my GPS, the descriptions and logs were not available without a premium account. Most times I don't need this information, but I found I could use my C:Geo on my smartphone in tandem with my GPS to get that information without a premium subscription.

 

Currently, I'd agree that I'm abusing the system in this manner (even though I behave myself), however, I intend on subscribing here directly as I like Groundspeak's easy interface with my GPS and I'd like to phase out the need for the smartphone in the event there is no cell service where I'm hunting.

 

The problem is with Groundspeak's eas of access. Their database is available to all of these third parties who offer the services and apps for free. Why buy the cow when the milk's free? That being said, I understand Groundspeak's dilemma. Lock up the system too tight (become a paid only service) and you risk phasing yourself out completely. The database is already out there and other sources are popping up. Included with my Garmin was direction to their Open Caching website which features user-submitted caches. This site looks to be innocent of database-robbing as it is devoid of most of the caches in my area that are listed on Groundspeak's site, however it's not that far of a leap for a less reputable third party to use the database and build it's own user-base where it would no longer need to sync with Groundspeak.

 

It's an honor-based hobby in the first place and no matter what your pleasure, there's always DB's that are going to taint it when left alone to do the right thing when nobody's looking. I'm quite sure that there's probably a paid member or two that are guilty of the same crimes mentioned in this thread, and it's not fair to say that ALL Intro users are bad and don't care, but what we can agree on is it's the people that make it bad and that's what needs fixed.

 

What about an official GC.com weather-proof rule/etiquette card affixed inside the cache to increase awareness? Sure it wouldn't fit in micros, but there's not enough room to pervert a micro in the first place. I think Groundspeak has done all they can to try and improve the sport with PMO caches and their wealth of information on their site including proper etiquette and so forth. Sure there's a disconnect between GC.com users and the rest, but they all come together at the cache itself, so the cache is where the information to fix the problem needs to be IMHO.

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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

 

Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

 

They are probably scratching their heads wondering why someone with 17 finds over 3 years is so animated over this issue. :D

 

There comes the insult.

 

Well, you never want to go there, but in this case, it is somewhat relevant. :huh: Anyone remember that guy from New Jersey who only found 25 caches (and hadn't found one for several months when he was active here), and had never hid one, but would sit here and argue with us for hours on end about anything?

 

Yes. The combination of low activity and very strong opinions is usually someone who is not posting with their primary account, AKA sock, and wishes to stay anonymous. I was certain that other guy was a sock, but he seemingly lost interest. In this case, I pretty much agree with cachman9, but its hard to understand the caps and DEMANDS TO TAKE ACTION, when there is very little activity or interest in geocaching. :huh:

 

There is no insult intended, nor anything close to the sort, only an honest observation which was triggered by the provoking and excited posts. I'm not expecting Groundspeak to do anything about the app very soon, although they should verify email addresses and somehow block users who are under 18 and not supervised. <_<

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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

 

Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

 

They are probably scratching their heads wondering why someone with 17 finds over 3 years is so animated over this issue. :D

 

There comes the insult.

 

Well, you never want to go there, but in this case, it is somewhat relevant. :huh: Anyone remember that guy from New Jersey who only found 25 caches (and hadn't found one for several months when he was active here), and had never hid one, but would sit here and argue with us for hours on end about anything?

 

Yes. The combination of low activity and very strong opinions is usually someone who is not posting with their primary account, AKA sock, and wishes to stay anonymous. I was certain that other guy was a sock, but he seemingly lost interest. In this case, I pretty much agree with cachman9, but its hard to understand the caps and DEMANDS TO TAKE ACTION, when there is very little activity or interest in geocaching. :huh:

 

There is no insult intended, nor anything close to the sort, only an honest observation which was triggered by the provoking and excited posts. I'm not expecting Groundspeak to do anything about the app very soon, although they should verify email addresses and somehow block users who are under 18 and not supervised. <_<

I disagree with blocking users under the age of 18 unless this game is for adults only. I understood it to be family friendly, has that changed?

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I disagree with blocking users under the age of 18 unless this game is for adults only. I understood it to be family friendly, has that changed?

While not directly on topic, one possible issue with the Intro app is its accessibility to minors. I can barely install an App on my smartphone without coaching from my daughter.

 

See also the active thread about a news article warning of perceived "dangers" for minors who geocache, including those using smartphone apps.

 

Groundspeak's position regarding minors is stated both in the Forum Guidelines:

To post in the Groundspeak Discussion Forums, you must be 18 years or older, or under the supervision of your parent or legal guardian.
and in the Website Terms of Use:
Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.
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I disagree with blocking users under the age of 18 unless this game is for adults only. I understood it to be family friendly, has that changed?

 

People that "muggle" geocaches tend to be young, and under 18. Perhaps the only problem with the app is the age group that use it.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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PM only, on all our caches ?

will this solve it ?

 

I really liked the idea about this to be free and open

BUT I dont like the idea about the download and find in 10 sec approch

people NEED a little bit more intro before they go out and jamm caches

due to not know how to behave.

Edited by OZ2CPU
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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

they have also seen 100000+ downloads of their PAID app from the android play store (no idea how many from the Apple crowd)so theres a million bucks. plus the number of paid memberships they get and no telling how much they pull in on trackables and other things from geo-sales. bottom line is its a business first. the intro app is a gateway app. a gateway to paid apps, memberships and sales. so while they may get around to some kind of token effort, don't hold your breath. now, convince about 75% of their PAID subscribers to stop paying, and they would start paying attention real quick. but since that won't happen, po caches and higher d/t combos will have to do for now

 

If decent caches get trashed before long all that will be left are soggy film pots behind signs. Once that happens, bye bye business. Hard to see people getting enthused about endlessly hunting soggy film pots.

 

Mind you people hunt QR codes stuck to signposts all the time it seems, so maybe that's where the game is headed.

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Let's summarize the best parts of this thread!! (IMO)

 

Very limited free app-5 finds

$0.99 intro app.

*** Both the free and the intro app should have tutorial elements built in ***

Full app-remains unchanged

 

Must watch a "how to" video before any app is functional. If watching a video is to tiresome or difficult for newbies, then they will not commit to the game anyway.

 

***validated email addy required***

 

A supportive and welcoming communtiy to the newbies

 

Grayed out txt encouraging better logs

Loved your summation. I injected my own IMO.

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Let's summarize the best parts of this thread!! (IMO)

 

Very limited free app-5 finds

$0.99 intro app.

*** Both the free and the intro app should have tutorial elements built in ***

Full app-remains unchanged

 

Must watch a "how to" video before any app is functional. If watching a video is to tiresome or difficult for newbies, then they will not commit to the game anyway.

 

*** validated email address required for ALL users BEFORE any coordinates or maps are made visible and any logging is allowed ***

 

A supportive and welcoming communtiy to the newbies

 

Grayed out txt encouraging better logs

Loved your summation. I injected my own IMO.

 

And I made a change for what I would like to expand on it.

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I think an updated summary of requests should be posted to each page. New posters have often come in suggesting already suggested items, or thinking it's somehow a new suggestion :P Plus, repetition might have a better chance of getting noticed (even it's still 0% :P) by tptb.

 

Open position for iPhone programmer at GS, you say, eh? I wonder if that means the last person or someone on the team gave up on the app, or if they're 'improving' the team, or if they're expanding, or just looking for a fresh perspective...

 

Email Validation Required has been the longest-running hard request that seems 100% supported throughout this thread. Does anyone know if Groundspeak is planning to implement this requirement? In any way? Or even knows of the suggestion? Which is BTW not just community quibbling, but generally Good Account Design. Honestly, of everything you sign up for on the internet, with the experience Groundspeak offers in geocaching, I'm still confounded as to why email validation is not required.

 

Actually, I can't remember - is it required if you sign up via the website? Because if so, then maybe it's actually a loophole in the mobile app that was either overlooked, or not considered a potential business-logic inconsistency. ...then again, the website does handle the occurrence of unvalidated emails by providing that notification on the profile contact page. =/

Edited by thebruce0
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I disagree with blocking users under the age of 18 unless this game is for adults only. I understood it to be family friendly, has that changed?

 

People that "muggle" geocaches tend to be young, and under 18. Perhaps the only problem with the app is the age group that use it.

I have the same issue as Keystone, I have to have one of my kids coach me with my phone. My 12 YO that gave up geocaching has better computer skills than my 17 YO that drives a car and works a part time job, but can't post here unsupervised or geocache alone. I did see where DHS has concerns with minors geocaching, and I understand their concern. I believe that some RSO's are aware of geocaching and use them to lure children. I am a peer reviewer on another geocaching site and I know how to check the National Registery for Sex Offenders, and it may suprise you what is out there. Groundspeak has an attribute for front yard caches, it would be wise for volunteer reviewers to take a close look at these type listings. :ph34r:

As far as muggles, I agree it is the younger group. I use a smartphone for work, but most teenagers seem to own one for their social agenda. :ph34r:

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Yeah, well one problem is that there are Lackeys with very little Geocaching experience, but plenty of computer skills, which I believe is the root issue.

Really? :unsure: Go on then, let's hear a bit more about that ...

No, let's not. Thanks.

So we can have 10+ pages discussion of new users' habits, not Groundspeak's? What are you afraid of?

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Yeah, well one problem is that there are Lackeys with very little Geocaching experience, but plenty of computer skills, which I believe is the root issue.

Really? :unsure: Go on then, let's hear a bit more about that ...

Maybe in another thread, but not here. I got the same impression from contacting Groundspeak before. But this intro app did have to be someone's idea, and it did not help this CO. It may have helped Groundspeak because all my listings are PMO now. Maybe that is part of the idea behind the app? :unsure:

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Yeah, well one problem is that there are Lackeys with very little Geocaching experience, but plenty of computer skills, which I believe is the root issue.

Really? :unsure: Go on then, let's hear a bit more about that ...

Maybe in another thread, but not here. I got the same impression from contacting Groundspeak before. But this intro app did have to be someone's idea, and it did not help this CO. It may have helped Groundspeak because all my listings are PMO now. Maybe that is part of the idea behind the app? :unsure:

As someone who writes software for users in domains where I am not a expert, I find the remarks a bit disingenuous. I suspect that the Groundspeak lackeys respect the opinions of geocachers with regards to how to make the website and apps better and that some have certainly been to these forums to find out what users are thinking.

 

In any case the Intro App is not designed for someone with lots of geocaching experience but for beginners. Perhaps a programmer who knows nothing about geocaching is the right person for creating this app. What do I need to know go geocaching? How can I go and find my first cache quickly? These are the sort of things the Intro App is meant to assist with. To the extent that any of the allegations that Intro App users are making grave mistakes that are "killing the hobby" are true, the ideas presented in this thread may provide a number of requirements for a future version of the app. But to cast aspersions on the Groundspeak lackeys because the current version of the app lacks some of these seems at the very least counterproductive.

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Yeah, well one problem is that there are Lackeys with very little Geocaching experience, but plenty of computer skills, which I believe is the root issue.

Really? :unsure: Go on then, let's hear a bit more about that ...

Maybe in another thread, but not here. I got the same impression from contacting Groundspeak before. But this intro app did have to be someone's idea, and it did not help this CO. It may have helped Groundspeak because all my listings are PMO now. Maybe that is part of the idea behind the app? :unsure:

As someone who writes software for users in domains where I am not a expert, I find the remarks a bit disingenuous. I suspect that the Groundspeak lackeys respect the opinions of geocachers with regards to how to make the website and apps better and that some have certainly been to these forums to find out what users are thinking.

 

In any case the Intro App is not designed for someone with lots of geocaching experience but for beginners. Perhaps a programmer who knows nothing about geocaching is the right person for creating this app. What do I need to know go geocaching? How can I go and find my first cache quickly? These are the sort of things the Intro App is meant to assist with. To the extent that any of the allegations that Intro App users are making grave mistakes that are "killing the hobby" are true, the ideas presented in this thread may provide a number of requirements for a future version of the app. But to cast aspersions on the Groundspeak lackeys because the current version of the app lacks some of these seems at the very least counterproductive.

While I can't say that this isn't true, I can say that there isn't nearly as much crowdsourcing going on for improvements, bug fixes, or added features.

 

I would be interested in seeing some more lacky involvement in the forums to glean ideas and show that GS is separating the wheat from the chaff in the suggestion department we call the forums.

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I suspect that the Groundspeak lackeys respect the opinions of geocachers with regards to how to make the website and apps better...

 

Wouldn't it be good if you could have confidence in that view, rather than only suspecting it might be the case? :)

 

But to cast aspersions on the Groundspeak lackeys because the current version of the app lacks some of these seems at the very least counterproductive.

 

Given that this two month long thread has produced nothing tangible from Groundspeak I'm starting to doubt anything we say here has any impact at all - may as well shout it into the wind :(

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Yeah, well one problem is that there are Lackeys with very little Geocaching experience, but plenty of computer skills, which I believe is the root issue.

Really? :unsure: Go on then, let's hear a bit more about that ...

No, let's not. Thanks.

So we can have 10+ pages discussion of new users' habits, not Groundspeak's? What are you afraid of?

The goal of the thread is to improve the Intro App. That is done far more easily with Groundspeak's continuing involvement. The thread is not about the Lackeys' find counts. That side conversation is disrespectful and counterproductive.

 

What am I afraid of? That Moun10Bike (13,500+ finds) and JaymeH (7800+ finds) will stop posting here and stop reading the good posts because of all the extraneous noise in the thread. As a moderator, I will work to avoid that result. Several of you will be receiving private messages in furtherance of that goal.

 

I do know for a fact that Groundspeak is working for change in this area.

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I suspect that the Groundspeak lackeys respect the opinions of geocachers with regards to how to make the website and apps better...

 

Wouldn't it be good if you could have confidence in that view, rather than only suspecting it might be the case? :)

 

But to cast aspersions on the Groundspeak lackeys because the current version of the app lacks some of these seems at the very least counterproductive.

 

Given that this two month long thread has produced nothing tangible from Groundspeak I'm starting to doubt anything we say here has any impact at all - may as well shout it into the wind :(

You think? :blink: I remember user voice before we had Challenges, then they were revoked with the promise to make better mistakes. I understand that Groundspeak is a business that I support with my membership fees. I'm also a member of a free geocaching service that was created by computer techs with little or no geocaching experience. I think that they did listen and a few improvements were made, but the site is a failure and the lights are still on for now and I have not a clue as to why unless it's a tax write off. So bottom line is that geocaching as a sport can earn revenue, and Groundspeak runs a good business that can even help some areas generate revenue by hosting MEGA events. Also the sale of geocoins and hosting the tracking numbers. The intro app is to draw new members to the site, not help us that are a major part of the sport. If you don't want intro app users finding your caches, then make them PMO or with higher D/T ratings. Or both like I plan on doing. I find that my higher D/T listings get the best comments and they are the type caches that I would seek myself. :D

 

Edit to add: I did not see Team Microdot's last post, so spare the banning stick and don't "stone" me. I'll put the muzzle on myself and not take part in this thread anymore.

It's just a few of us that use the forums, the members that I know with the big numbers and event hosts use the rule of thumb here to never post in the forums. We have FB now anyway. :laughing:

Edited by Manville Possum Hunters
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It is great to know that G$ is working in this area. I hope TPTB see that:

1. most in this thread want users to register with confirmed emails to allow CO to reach out and advise (TEACH or MENTOR) the new users

2. registered users with confirmed email addresses (REAL MEMBERS) are what advertisers are looking for when deciding where to spend their advertising dollars

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Yeah, well one problem is that there are Lackeys with very little Geocaching experience, but plenty of computer skills, which I believe is the root issue.

Really? :unsure: Go on then, let's hear a bit more about that ...

No, let's not. Thanks.

So we can have 10+ pages discussion of new users' habits, not Groundspeak's? What are you afraid of?

The goal of the thread is to improve the Intro App. That is done far more easily with Groundspeak's continuing involvement. The thread is not about the Lackeys' find counts. That side conversation is disrespectful and counterproductive.

 

What am I afraid of? That Moun10Bike (13,500+ finds) and JaymeH (7800+ finds) will stop posting here and stop reading the good posts because of all the extraneous noise in the thread. As a moderator, I will work to avoid that result. Several of you will be receiving private messages in furtherance of that goal.

 

I do know for a fact that Groundspeak is working for change in this area.

It is more than those two that have respectful find counts. There a number of lackeys that are very active and I would speculate the August thing got most of them out to find caches. Naw, I would say the lackeys are fairly involved and active. But Moun10bike and JaymeH are the most active in posting responses, but other lackeys have posted from time to time and apparently read some of the posts, and when checked out they all have a fair number of finds.

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I gave the intro app a try but soon deleted it, it is the kiddy pool geocaches and did not interest me. About the confirmed email, anyone consider that new members may not want contacted and advised? What kind of advise do you give someone that stomped down a flower bed and logged NM or NA on a geocache they could not find? Also do I really want advertisers contacting me? Maybe the do, I should check my spam folder more often. :(

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I gave the intro app a try but soon deleted it, it is the kiddy pool geocaches and did not interest me. About the confirmed email, anyone consider that new members may not want contacted and advised? What kind of advise do you give someone that stomped down a flower bed and logged NM or NA on a geocache they could not find? Also do I really want advertisers contacting me? Maybe the do, I should check my spam folder more often. :(

Interesting, for all the years I have been a member with a validated email I can't recall even one advert email I could attribute to Groundspeak, so that is not a valid excuse. How about the cacher leaves some snotty log about the condition of the cache and is not very clear about the condition. Perhaps I would like to ask them a question about what they said about my cache. There are a number of reasons to have a valid email address, none of which have to do with adverts or stomping on flower beds.

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I gave the intro app a try but soon deleted it, it is the kiddy pool geocaches and did not interest me. About the confirmed email, anyone consider that new members may not want contacted and advised? What kind of advise do you give someone that stomped down a flower bed and logged NM or NA on a geocache they could not find? Also do I really want advertisers contacting me? Maybe the do, I should check my spam folder more often. :(

 

I have NEVER gotten any type of advertising emails from Groundspeak. That's in over 6 years of membership.

The issue is about cache owners wanting to be able to contact new users, whether they DNF a cache (to welcome them to the hobby & offer friendly helpful hints) or they find a cache and leave a "Found with the Geocaching Intro App' log (and welcome them to the hobby & offer helpful hints about writing logs for their finds)

Anyone wanting a free app should be willing to validate their email, just like when they join faceplace or whatever other social website they want to join.

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I gave the intro app a try but soon deleted it, it is the kiddy pool geocaches and did not interest me. About the confirmed email, anyone consider that new members may not want contacted and advised? What kind of advise do you give someone that stomped down a flower bed and logged NM or NA on a geocache they could not find? Also do I really want advertisers contacting me? Maybe the do, I should check my spam folder more often. :(

 

If you don't ever want to be contacted then this might not be the hobby for you. You are finding caches that are were placed and are owned by other people and not by some faceless corporation. While this isn't the most social of hobbies some interaction is occasionally necessary.

 

If you are going to be involved in a hobby were your actions can affect others then you should have a way that you can be contacted by others in that hobby. I don't check my email daily but it is a way that I can, eventually, be contacted. That's important.

 

Sure, some people are hyper-sensitive to email advertizing but that's not a good reason to not require email validation. Besides, real spam from those you do business with doesn't happen all that often. Businesses have learned that the little bit of money they get from advertisers isn't worth ruining their relationship with their customers and getting such a bad reputation that they can't attract new customers.

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I gave the intro app a try but soon deleted it, it is the kiddy pool geocaches and did not interest me. About the confirmed email, anyone consider that new members may not want contacted and advised? What kind of advise do you give someone that stomped down a flower bed and logged NM or NA on a geocache they could not find? Also do I really want advertisers contacting me? Maybe the do, I should check my spam folder more often. :(

Interesting, for all the years I have been a member with a validated email I can't recall even one advert email I could attribute to Groundspeak, so that is not a valid excuse. How about the cacher leaves some snotty log about the condition of the cache and is not very clear about the condition. Perhaps I would like to ask them a question about what they said about my cache. There are a number of reasons to have a valid email address, none of which have to do with adverts or stomping on flower beds.

Correct. I have one finder I'd like to ask a question about where he found my cache, as it's not where I hid it - and others are DNFing it - but I can't because he has no email. Is it missing (since he found it), has it migrated or what? Too bad, now it's temp disabled and may have to archived - I sure wish I could get an answer...

 

Edit for spelling.

Edited by The Jester
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What kind of advise do you give someone that stomped down a flower bed and logged NM or NA on a geocache they could not find? Also do I really want advertisers contacting me? Maybe the do, I should check my spam folder more often. :(

how about don't stomp down flower beds? don't log NM or NA just because you couldn't find it.

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What kind of advise do you give someone that stomped down a flower bed and logged NM or NA on a geocache they could not find? Also do I really want advertisers contacting me? Maybe the do, I should check my spam folder more often. :(

how about don't stomp down flower beds? don't log NM or NA just because you couldn't find it.

 

Exactly right. Sometimes people need a little reminder to be respectful. Common sense isn't all that common. Nobody's prefect.

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Yeah, well one problem is that there are Lackeys with very little Geocaching experience, but plenty of computer skills, which I believe is the root issue.

Really? :unsure: Go on then, let's hear a bit more about that ...

No, let's not. Thanks.

So we can have 10+ pages discussion of new users' habits, not Groundspeak's? What are you afraid of?

The goal of the thread is to improve the Intro App. That is done far more easily with Groundspeak's continuing involvement. The thread is not about the Lackeys' find counts. That side conversation is disrespectful and counterproductive.

 

What am I afraid of? That Moun10Bike (13,500+ finds) and JaymeH (7800+ finds) will stop posting here and stop reading the good posts because of all the extraneous noise in the thread. As a moderator, I will work to avoid that result. Several of you will be receiving private messages in furtherance of that goal.

 

I do know for a fact that Groundspeak is working for change in this area.

I respectfully disagree.

There is nothing disrespectful or counterproductive about it. For years it has been requested for the ability to keep find counts hidden, but that request has been denied, as it appears to be important to some people to see others "score". Now we have an issue with a very basic and vital function to contact other users. I don't know how any regular geocacher could build an app and leave this out, and it would have to be the product of someone with very little experience. I know of a few Lackeys with very high find counts that obviously enjoy the game, but there are others that do not play much at all, and have developed more than a few projects. One find log in particular was from someone with 50 finds who noted that "this was my first nightcache which I found using the backlight of my iPhone". For any project to be successful, the creator should definitely have an interest enough to do it often. That's all I have to say about that, and not to deviate any from the thread's topic.

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