Online logging

[+-CJ-]

I was in Kiev a couple of months ago and visited some caches. The previous finder left identical logs to almost all hides that I found. However his logs were missing from the paper logbooks in containers. In my practice I can remember several cases of this sort but not in so many listings on one day.

 

After half a month I discovered that many of geocaches in Moscow were simultaneously logged online as found by the same person. (Identical logs again). Many of these caches were those I owned. Some were not that easy and located in different districts so it would be really difficult to find them alltogether in one day. I wrote a polite question to the guy but got no answer. I wrote a question to the cache owner in Kiev, the most active geocacher in the city that I know, to find out what was his experience. He replied he had no information to add - not even an idea.

 

Indeed, I could just forget about this (probable) online logger. It's his business and I'm not a geocache purist to wipe out his (probably) false logs. However there's one issue. There's a huge problem with disappearing (stolen) caches in my city so I have to monitor them all the time. User logs help me greatly to understand if the cache is OK or not. The mentioned online logs spoiled this monitoring. Not good.

 

My question is: how often have you encountered massive online (false) logging of caches that you own and what were your actions once you understood the situation?

Edited November 2, 2013 by -CJ-

[+Isonzo Karst]

how often have you encountered massive online (false) logging of caches that you own and what were your actions once you understood the situation?

 

Once, a bunch of logs that were back-dated a couple of years, and claimed finds on all of my forest caches in two areas. Something about, "finding an old notebook of cache finds". I suspect it was an old notebook of "caches I might hunt", not of finds. In one case, the online log was clearly bogus - whether by intent or just trying to do something more than TFTC I couldn't say. It stated, "a quick day of caching, just got this one and GC XXXX." The 2 caches claimed on opposite sides of the river, neither "quick". One requires a long hike in, the other a tough bushwhacking multi, a half day just to cover the ground - with miles of driving between the two.

 

I checked physical logs on the multi-caches, and the more remote traditional caches, where the logs from the period claimed still were present - the ammo cans. No logs from the dates claimed.

 

I deleted the logs on those caches only (leaving the bulk of the finds on the caches along hiking trails) and sent an email of explanation. I let the bulk of the finds stand, as I'd guess that some part of them could be true - ie, cacher really had hiked the trails, and likely found everything along them that they'd hunted.

 

Cacher complained, and I offered to re-instate any log where he had any memory at all of the cache hunt. I never heard back. I'd guess he really did find some of my caches along the marked trails - but not any of multis, or off-trail hunts. To claim he found them, he ought to remember something; the terrain is not easy enough to be forgettable.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Isonzo Karst

[+Harry Dolphin]

We did have the notorious vacationing retiree who logged twenty caches a day on a trip around the country. (If I'm not mistaken, Groundspeak deleted all his logs.) What had me wondering was that he logged two of my caches about two miles apart. That's about an hour's drive. No one had ever logged both on the same day (not with the hundreds of other caches around.) Nope. He did not sign either. Nor the log in my sister's cache in Maine.

Then there was the truck driver who logged all the caches near the Interstate highway. The trouble was that the state was basically closed down that day for a blizzard. My cache was not available to trucks. The cache on the other side of the Interstate would have been a ten-mile detour. And I highly doubt that he made it the mile down the unmaintained road for another, in the blizzard. I deleted the find on my cache. The other finds remained.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I have not encountered arm chair logging, but you present a good case for what to do below...

 

Indeed, I could just forget about this (probable) online logger. It's his business and I'm not a geocache purist to wipe out his (probably) false logs. However there's one issue. There's a huge problem with disappearing (stolen) caches in my city so I have to monitor them all the time. User logs help me greatly to understand if the cache is OK or not. The mentioned online logs spoiled this monitoring. Not good.

[Mr.Yuck]

We did have the notorious vacationing retiree who logged twenty caches a day on a trip around the country. (If I'm not mistaken, Groundspeak deleted all his logs.) What had me wondering was that he logged two of my caches about two miles apart. That's about an hour's drive. No one had ever logged both on the same day (not with the hundreds of other caches around.) Nope. He did not sign either. Nor the log in my sister's cache in Maine.

Then there was the truck driver who logged all the caches near the Interstate highway. The trouble was that the state was basically closed down that day for a blizzard. My cache was not available to trucks. The cache on the other side of the Interstate would have been a ten-mile detour. And I highly doubt that he made it the mile down the unmaintained road for another, in the blizzard. I deleted the find on my cache. The other finds remained.

 

Ah yes Dolphin, I remember both. The notorious vacationing retiree logged caches all over the USA. Googling his username at the time would bring up discussions about his obvious bogus logging in several regional Geocaching forums! As well as here, of course. Groundspeak absolutely wiped out all his finds. I've often cited that incident as proof Groundspeak will take bulk action against bogus logging, despite protests from the "they're not hurting anyone" crowd. Thing is, that was probably 2007 or 2008, and his username has finally slipped out of my memory banks. But trust me, it's a zero find account now.

 

Truck driver guy was just a few months later, and I'm convinced it was just someone messing with the Geocaching community after the very real vacationing retiree incident. Trolling us, if you will.

[+-CJ-]

Cacher complained, and I offered to re-instate any log where he had any memory at all of the cache hunt

 

Did he complain to you or appealed to Groundspeak as well?

Edited November 2, 2013 by -CJ-

[+tallglenn]

Here's an article I found that gave me some insight on cheaters: http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/spotting-liar-health-effects-deception

[+tozainamboku]

Here's an article I found that gave me some insight on cheaters: http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/spotting-liar-health-effects-deception

Gosh. I wonder if anyone has done any studies on the health effects of getting your knickers twisted and spending all your time posting in an internet forum about cheating in a trivial game.

[+tallglenn]

Here's an article I found that gave me some insight on cheaters: http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/spotting-liar-health-effects-deception

Gosh. I wonder if anyone has done any studies on the health effects of getting your knickers twisted and spending all your time posting in an internet forum about cheating in a trivial game.

 

You're welcome.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Gosh. I wonder if anyone has done any studies on the health effects of getting your knickers twisted...

 

Yes, apparently it's unhealthy to not get your knickers twisted because of the chemicals necessary to make that happen. Feeling sick?

 

Is there a study on the health effects of people who get their knickers twisted about people who get their knickers twisted about cheaters?

Edited November 2, 2013 by nonaeroterraqueous

[+Isonzo Karst]

Did he complain to you or appealed to Groundspeak as well?

 

He emailed me.

 

I did explain that the log deletions were only on caches that I had actually checked, and where the physical logs in the caches were still there from the year of his logs.

[+BKip]

My question is: how often have you encountered massive online (false) logging of caches that you own and what were your actions once you understood the situation?

 

Once.

 

Back in July 2011, clones of the log entry below started showing up in southern California, on numerous cache pages.

 

"Back logging caches from my trip to California. Had a great time caching out here. Look forward to getting back out to Cali in the future.

TFTC"

 

One of the local prolific cache hiders took note, checked a few of his own caches and could not find an actual signature by the logger. First thing he did was e-mail the cacher, a US Marine stationed in Japan, and inquired about the missing signatures. That cacher responded (I never saw the actual e-mail) indicating his computer was automatically making the erroneous entries.

 

These log entries continued and the local guy sent a mass e-mail to other local CO's asking if they had noted the false logs. This is when I became aware of the situation. Eight of my caches were logged by but not signed by, lets call him "Mr X".

 

After verifying the caches lacked a signature, I, like many of the other local CO's, simply deleted his entries. Mr X's logging went on for a few weeks. When I first looked this guy up I had noted his find number; then the next time I looked, about a week later, his finds had gone up by over 200.

 

It became a game in itself to, when finding a new cache to look for his signature and then when logging online to see if Mr X had logged it. I never once found his signature in a cache but I found numerous caches he had claimed online.

 

Mr Xs online "Found it" still resides on any number of local cache pages.

[+niraD]

There have been a couple of bots that hit local caches. Some of us deleted the bot-generated logs. Others waited until Groundspeak nuked the accounts the bots were using. But that was a while ago.

[+JohnnyVegas]

I was in Kiev a couple of months ago and visited some caches. The previous finder left identical logs to almost all hides that I found. However his logs were missing from the paper logbooks in containers. In my practice I can remember several cases of this sort but not in so many listings on one day.

 

After half a month I discovered that many of geocaches in Moscow were simultaneously logged online as found by the same person. (Identical logs again). Many of these caches were those I owned. Some were not that easy and located in different districts so it would be really difficult to find them alltogether in one day. I wrote a polite question to the guy but got no answer. I wrote a question to the cache owner in Kiev, the most active geocacher in the city that I know, to find out what was his experience. He replied he had no information to add - not even an idea.

 

Indeed, I could just forget about this (probable) online logger. It's his business and I'm not a geocache purist to wipe out his (probably) false logs. However there's one issue. There's a huge problem with disappearing (stolen) caches in my city so I have to monitor them all the time. User logs help me greatly to understand if the cache is OK or not. The mentioned online logs spoiled this monitoring. Not good.

 

My question is: how often have you encountered massive online (false) logging of caches that you own and what were your actions once you understood the situation?

I have no problem deleting phony logs. I get tired of the cop out reply by some cachers, "well if that is the way they want to play the game that's their business" this is C^&p It would be like say two teams on a football team could make up their own rules. I my book cachers to claim finds without really find the cache are nothing more than dirt bag scum and I do delete such logs. I deleted three in the past two weeks

[+redwoodkestrel]

We had someone locally a couple months ago who logged 100+ caches in San Francisco in one day. All of us who checked our physical logs found no signature from him. He logged many tough puzzles, challenges with no supporting documentation, and caches only accessible by boat.

 

It was interesting that he chose to focus all in one area for his bogus logging - which, on first glance, probably makes it look less bogus - but those of us in the area immediately noticed something amiss. In the end though, only a handful of COs deleted his logs - the rest with only a few logged caches (or not on our FB group) probably didn't think anything of the logs.

[+Traditional Bill]

This has actually happened to me recently - GC4CN0N

 

While normally I'm quick to delete logs by cachers who are bogus loggers....I'm not sure if I can justify this one.

 

I disabled the cache when it was dnf'd as the photos indicated the area was undergoing some changes by the city and the cache itself may be missing. Well, the same day I disabled it, I received the log posted with the date 7/01/2013 in my email. I then referred to the gallery on the page, as I know somebody had posted a picture of that time period of the log in the past. When I looked at the picture, sure enough....that one plus a couple of others were not there. Unless they sign on a different sheet of the log book....but I don't see why they would've.

 

Anyway, here's my conundrum. When I went to see if the cache was missing, it indeed was. So, I have no physical evidence of this apparent "backlogged" arm chair find. I did however, find it interesting that they waited until it was disabled to backlog it.

 

Here's the other problem....The other two cachers who don't appear on the log in the picture posted.....they're good friends of mine. I'm sure they completed the cartridge (it's a Wherigo), as they were having issues with the unlock code and finally got it to work. If they were having trouble finding the cache, they would have called me for sure.

 

I have yet to say anything to either of the three loggers in question, but without the physical log anymore and only a picture, what am I to do?

[+nyhof]

I cannot begin to express how hurtful it is to be accused of cheating. I have been accused of armchair logging & cheating in the past. I tend to lose things and it never fails that I drop a pen on the trail. Or i go looking for a large ammo can and the pencil lead is broken or pen out of ink. Im sorry but that minor inconvenience is not going to force me to quit for the day and leave or hike back to the car for a new pen. I will find the container and take a pic or describe the location and sign online stating that i did not sign the physical log. The purists will go on and delete the log stating the rule about signing the log but some others will not and let it slide. If the log gets deleted, then i go back, pen in hand, and sign. I remember one cache that I was FTF and no pen. So i burned a stick and made a black smudge. The CO actually went to the location and signed the log in ink for me. No questions asked.

 

What is the general consensus on this? Should you let it slide if the person can describe the container, hiding spot or provide other solid proof?

[+jellis]

Also recently we were hit here in California/Nevada by vacationing cachers who claimed to find over 4000 in 4 days. Not saying they didn't find a lot of them but some COs check their logsheets and found they didn't signed with signatures or a stamp/stickers they claimed they were using. Plus being in many far apart locations at the same time with high difficulties and terrains and still get in the 1000s they claim? I like having my caches being PMO because I notice many false loggers tend to advoid them, as most are basic members. Plus I check my logsheets and I will delete them if I can't find their names.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

This has actually happened to me recently - GC4CN0N

 

While normally I'm quick to delete logs by cachers who are bogus loggers....I'm not sure if I can justify this one.

 

I disabled the cache when it was dnf'd as the photos indicated the area was undergoing some changes by the city and the cache itself may be missing. Well, the same day I disabled it, I received the log posted with the date 7/01/2013 in my email. I then referred to the gallery on the page, as I know somebody had posted a picture of that time period of the log in the past. When I looked at the picture, sure enough....that one plus a couple of others were not there. Unless they sign on a different sheet of the log book....but I don't see why they would've.

 

Anyway, here's my conundrum. When I went to see if the cache was missing, it indeed was. So, I have no physical evidence of this apparent "backlogged" arm chair find. I did however, find it interesting that they waited until it was disabled to backlog it.

 

Here's the other problem....The other two cachers who don't appear on the log in the picture posted.....they're good friends of mine. I'm sure they completed the cartridge (it's a Wherigo), as they were having issues with the unlock code and finally got it to work. If they were having trouble finding the cache, they would have called me for sure.

 

I have yet to say anything to either of the three loggers in question, but without the physical log anymore and only a picture, what am I to do?

 

Let it go. If they unlocked the cartridge, they completed the Wherigo portion of the cache, which is usually the point of Wherigo caches. I know a puritan would scream "YOU MUST SIGN THE LOG!" but eh, whatever. Most Wherigo's that I've done had a container only because it was required in order to be listed on this website. After completing the cartridge, the container itself has been just another traditional cache. I would tend to believe them...I mean, who would complete and unlock the Wherigo portion but not look for the final cache?

 

Plus, you have no "proof" that they didn't find the cache portion. To me, it wouldn't be worth any bad feelings between friends over something so trivial.

[+Traditional Bill]

This has actually happened to me recently - GC4CN0N

 

While normally I'm quick to delete logs by cachers who are bogus loggers....I'm not sure if I can justify this one.

 

I disabled the cache when it was dnf'd as the photos indicated the area was undergoing some changes by the city and the cache itself may be missing. Well, the same day I disabled it, I received the log posted with the date 7/01/2013 in my email. I then referred to the gallery on the page, as I know somebody had posted a picture of that time period of the log in the past. When I looked at the picture, sure enough....that one plus a couple of others were not there. Unless they sign on a different sheet of the log book....but I don't see why they would've.

 

Anyway, here's my conundrum. When I went to see if the cache was missing, it indeed was. So, I have no physical evidence of this apparent "backlogged" arm chair find. I did however, find it interesting that they waited until it was disabled to backlog it.

 

Here's the other problem....The other two cachers who don't appear on the log in the picture posted.....they're good friends of mine. I'm sure they completed the cartridge (it's a Wherigo), as they were having issues with the unlock code and finally got it to work. If they were having trouble finding the cache, they would have called me for sure.

 

I have yet to say anything to either of the three loggers in question, but without the physical log anymore and only a picture, what am I to do?

 

Let it go. If they unlocked the cartridge, they completed the Wherigo portion of the cache, which is usually the point of Wherigo caches. I know a puritan would scream "YOU MUST SIGN THE LOG!" but eh, whatever. Most Wherigo's that I've done had a container only because it was required in order to be listed on this website. After completing the cartridge, the container itself has been just another traditional cache. I would tend to believe them...I mean, who would complete and unlock the Wherigo portion but not look for the final cache?

 

Plus, you have no "proof" that they didn't find the cache portion. To me, it wouldn't be worth any bad feelings between friends over something so trivial.

 

I did speak with my friends afterwards about it. They were able to describe the hide in vivid detail so indeed they did find the cache. The other group that logged it recently though from months ago....I don't know about them. They found over two hundred caches that day across new jersey, Delaware, Maryland and Virginia, plus a Wherigo that takes almost two hours? I don't think so.

[+-CJ-]

Oh, I didn't realize that armchair logging has been so widespread. Numerous evidences.

 

The worst thing of course would be to wrongly accuse anyone of being a bogus logger. It's such a delicate question, I'm not sure how should I personally handle this. On the other hand, armchair logging (or, as one of you said, bot logging) is rather simple and checking caches for offline logs is a huge task that definitely cannot be done if different COs are involved and the territory is big enough. I think I could check some of my caches and delete some false logs but that doesn't solve the problem. It's not good not only because I cannot monitor lost caches effectively (as I said). It's also may lead to confusion for cache finders who may be encouraged by a smiley after a couple of DNFs and rush to a cache which has been actually muggled.

 

If was also interesting how armchair loggers explained their actions. As far as I understood, they just didn't care.

 

Thank you all for your replies.

Edited November 5, 2013 by -CJ-