is the GPSr industry is crap? need help

[+Intrepid Dyad]

So I got a Garmin Oregon 450 and thought it would be good to use. I wanted it for two reasons. Longer battery life and better GPS accuracy.

 

I have used the iphone app on an iphone 5 for all my caching experience before.

 

While I found the Oregon 450 has better life and more reliable GPS signal, I do not find it more accurate. The response time is so slow that you have to pause to get any real bearing how far off you are from GZ. Or even which direction you have to go to get to the cache.

 

It doesn't help with the GPS lag you get on an iphone due to this and worst is the price tag on it and the gui is terrible compared to the app.

 

So I am asking for some help. Is there a GPSr out there less then $200 that are made with a quality resolution screen and has some actual computing power in it? or are they all garbage tech wrapped around a good GPS module?

 

If not I would like some help coming up with my options. I really like the app and the response time of my iphone 5, only problem with the iphone is battery life and internal GPS chip is weak. I found the Toughcase by Magellan, but that only works with an iphone 3 or lower it seems. A product like that would be perfect. otherwise I can use a juice pack to protect and increase battery life, but I would really like a case that will add better GPS ability. Does anyone know of a product for the iphone 5 that does this? or if a bluetooth GPS would work?

 

Other options would to go the android route. I can pick up a cheap android phone or tablet and use an external GPS and battery technology if iphone capability with any external GPS is a problem.

 

I appreciate any help i get

Edited October 30, 2013 by Intrepid Dyad

[+T.D.M.22]

I have a Garmin that has never had those issues. Best part is it's under $100.

 

Also have a Magellan Explorist GC. Under $200, no issues either.

[+JesandTodd]

I use an iPhone 4S (soon to be 5s) and a Garmin 60 CSx and couldn't be happier. It's like having a sportscar and a jeep. Best of both worlds.

 

Even my Garmin has issues (you get spoiled by the iphone). But having both is the way to go...

[tr_s]

I believe it has gone this way because the dedicated GPSr industry is underfunded/has lost ground due to the inrush of cell phones with similar or in most cases better capabilities to the end user. Dedicated GPSr companies will really have to innovate and release extreme quality and usable products in the future if they want to stay in business. In short, they are in a difficult situation.

 

The receiver/antenna package in most cell phones is still inferior to a dedicated GPSr, but it's not like this matters for most users. Geocachers might be a bit more picky.

 

In my case what has been causing some frustration about neo-era GPS is not actually sluggishness, but bugs. When I first switched on my eTrex 30 in February 2012, I was in utter disbelief on what Garmin actually had released. Was the firmware QC from this reputable company so bad that I, as an end user, really could have found several serious bugs in a 30 minute timespan of use? YEP, you bet... That receiver line is probably an extreme on that point, though.

 

I saw TDM22 posted an image of an eTrex H above. Great reciever, I also own one. Not a single software issue found yet. Unfortunately it suffers from the rubber band loosening which plagued the old eTrex line. However, this is much easier to fix than buggy firmware, and can be fairly permanently fixed with a tube of the right glue (Silane based) and fifteen minutes of work.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

So I got a Garmin Oregon 450 and thought it would be good to use. I wanted it for two reasons. Longer battery life and better GPS accuracy.

 

I have used the iphone app on an iphone 5 for all my caching experience before.

 

While I found the Oregon 450 has better life and more reliable GPS signal, I do not find it more accurate. The response time is so slow that you have to pause to get any real bearing how far off you are from GZ. Or even which direction you have to go to get to the cache.

 

It doesn't help with the GPS lag you get on an iphone due to this and worst is the price tag on it and the gui is terrible compared to the app.

 

So I am asking for some help. Is there a GPSr out there less then $200 that are made with a quality resolution screen and has some actual computing power in it? or are they all garbage tech wrapped around a good GPS module?

 

If not I would like some help coming up with my options. I really like the app and the response time of my iphone 5, only problem with the iphone is battery life and internal GPS chip is weak. I found the Toughcase by Magellan, but that only works with an iphone 3 or lower it seems. A product like that would be perfect. otherwise I can use a juice pack to protect and increase battery life, but I would really like a case that will add better GPS ability. Does anyone know of a product for the iphone 5 that does this? or if a bluetooth GPS would work?

 

Other options would to go the android route. I can pick up a cheap android phone or tablet and use an external GPS and battery technology if iphone capability with any external GPS is a problem.

 

I appreciate any help i get

 

There are a ton of folks using the 450 very successfully. We have one and it did fine but we now use two 62S units which we much prefer. Re the 450 , it may have been a firmware issue ( the infamous " sticky " ) I've never really enjoyed caching with my iPhones.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I have a Garmin that has never had those issues. Best part is it's under $100.

 

Also have a Magellan Explorist GC. Under $200, no issues either.

 

This was our first unit and its still brand new......once we got mapping units for caching there was no going back to the Etrex.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I use an iPhone 4S (soon to be 5s) and a Garmin 60 CSx and couldn't be happier. It's like having a sportscar and a jeep. Best of both worlds.

 

Even my Garmin has issues (you get spoiled by the iphone). But having both is the way to go...

 

We did exactly this and it works great. Only thing is one more expensive device to carry on the trail. Now my wife and I both use the 62S and the iPhone stays in the car....its great if you want up to the minute info.

[+L0ne.R]

I use an iPhone 4S (soon to be 5s) and a Garmin 60 CSx and couldn't be happier. It's like having a sportscar and a jeep. Best of both worlds.

 

Even my Garmin has issues (you get spoiled by the iphone). But having both is the way to go...

 

+1

 

That was the best combo for me.....a 60Cx and an app (first Cachesense, then the GC app when I got a iphone 4S)

[+Red90]

You could use a bluetooth GPS with the iPhone to fix the GPS problem. A few good choices out there. Battery pack cases or backup external batteries deal with the battery problem.

 

The options people are suggesting will be worse for you than the Oregon that you already have.

[Pacific NW]

I agree -- smartphones, tablets, etc. have taken a huge chunk out of dedicated vehicle and outdoors-related GPS unit sales. It seems as though the price for new GPS units (esp. outdoors-related) continues to creep up and up, with constant firmware updates necessary for major issues. Take a company like Garmin, for example: they can't outpace smartphones (and apps), their computer software is lacking, their map offerings are pricey and outdated (while free offerings abound), their constant stream of new GPS products seem to be rushed to market, and they don't actually make the GPS receiver chipsets themselves. Not only that, they started their own version of caching to compete with GC. So what are they going to do in the future? They can still sell the more specialized units for aviation, maritime use, etc., but what about the lowly consumer market? To me, it doesn't look good. My $0.02 hunch is that they split the divisions apart, like Motorola did, perhaps getting the consumer side bought out by a cell phone company for the tech they do have, and the name branding. I really wish Garmin would return to what they do (or did) best; rock-solid GPS units with good battery life to get you from Point A to Point B.

 

As far as keeping it under $200 for the OP, you already tried the Oregon 450, which is what I was going to recommend, since it's pretty stable. I do see the GPSMAP 62 is on Amazon and at REI for $199. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the expandable memory or compass/altimeter that the Oregon 450 has. If you don't want maps, the idea of an older eTrex model (anything with the "H" high sensitivity chipset) is a good one. Or for $130 or $175 you can get the current Foretrex 301 or 401, respectively. I've got the Foretrex 401 and the interface feels very much like the old original yellow eTrex -- nice and simple, but with much better reception.

 

Do let us know what you decide on!

[+splashy]

tr s wrote;

 

"I believe it has gone this way because the dedicated GPSr industry is underfunded/has lost ground due to the inrush of cell phones with similar or in most cases better capabilities to the end user. Dedicated GPSr companies will really have to innovate and release extreme quality and usable products in the future if they want to stay in business"

---------------------------------------------------

 

Underfunded?? Garmin got 400 + models, sold for years as the 'only' GPS company the units and earned tons on maps.

The hardware is good, the problem is the 'dedicated' outdoor models, coming to the market early and having all kind of silly problems.

 

Compared to the possibilities of the smartphone apps it's almost impossible to make a model that will last at least 3 years without looking old fashioned.

This together with the not willingness of Garmin just to listen to the customers, the very bad support of the helpdesk and the almost total lack of doing something about all kind of issues with many models, makes the customer ask, do I really need a dedicated Gps if i own a modern smartphone?

The fact that they take back faulty new models looks like a good service, but it shouldn't have happened multiple times with different models, even a model after some weeks withdrawn from the market doesn't help.

 

As somebody else wrote, the steady creeping up in price is not a strong selling argument, before I would have ordered my new unit already, because Garmin always took back faulty 1st gen units, but with these prices $600 ++ and not even being sure if the Monterra unit does what they say it does. it will be an extremely complicated unit and I really doubt Garmin can put a modern looking good working unit on the market.

I'm just waiting and see what the startup problems are and if they can resolve the possible problems.

 

I'm a user from the beginning and once again I love the Garmin hardware, but from the moment the models became 'complicated' something went wrong with Garmin.

I have been saying this for years now (and people getting mad about this on this forum), if they continue like this in the smartphone era, this company will not be selling many dedicated gps'es anymore.

Edited October 31, 2013 by splashy

[+gelfling6]

I still find my Garmin units still best on battery life.. the Magellan GC has gotten a little hungry lately. (for some reason, it's appetite for batteries got ravenous after updating to the 2.15 firmware.) I've never used a Smartphone before, and I've heard they get extremely hungry!

 

I think the Smartphones are doing double-duty, too.. The maps are stored in a cloud server, and everytime it needs a new tile for that map, it has to draw that tile from the repository on the cloud server, and send it over the phone service, which itself is going to use power to transmit/receive the data, along with the GPS which is also drawing power.

 

The garmins I have, are the old-school eTrex (from the Vista-HCx, down to the classic non-H yellow.).. the LCD's are designed to not require the backlighting the Magellans seem to require. (and for some reason the white LED's in the GC, and a eXplorist 500 I had before I killed it (Never plug a 9V netbook charger into the power/charger (5V) cord for the old eXplorist line!) have poor LCD backing, and don't reflect as much sunlight.)

 

I used to run the older Garmins off a pair of Sayno Eneloops for a couple of hours, before needing to replace and recharge them.. Not too many places to buy them locally, and the Sanyo/GE batteries aren't of the same quality. Don't even bother with the Duracell rechargeables! they tend to lose power as soon as you remove them from the charger! (charged one pair at night, when they finished charging, took them out.. next morning, put them in the GPS, they only lasted an hour, TOPS! and these were the 2300mAh AA's!!)

[+splashy]

"The maps are stored in a cloud server, and everytime it needs a new tile for that map, it has to draw that tile from the repository on the cloud server, and send it over the phone service, which itself is going to use power to transmit/receive the data."

 

Many apps run on free OSM maps, stored on the smartphone, therefore you don't need any network at all.

The phone eats battery power fast, an external usb adapter does wonders here.

And many people is geocaching out of the car, they charge while driving to the parking lot and don't geocache in bad weather.

Edited October 31, 2013 by splashy

[+bilikituri]

"The maps are stored in a cloud server, and everytime it needs a new tile for that map, it has to draw that tile from the repository on the cloud server, and send it over the phone service, which itself is going to use power to transmit/receive the data."

 

Many apps run on free OSM maps, stored on the smartphone, therefore you don't need any network at all.

The phone eats battery power fast, an external usb adapter does wonders here.

And many people is geocaching out of the car, they charge while driving to the parking lot and don't geocache in bad weather.

 

Also you can buy a battery pack like http://www.mophie.com/shop/iphone-5 for example, as far as battery is concerned that's enough for a day out geocaching.

 

I believe smartphones are superior in general. Take for example Groundspeak app, everything integrated, trivial selection of a map area and its caches for offline access. You can go to the hills, turn wifi and data off, and use just the GPS receiver. Gestures for the map are great, resolution is better, even the photos of the caches are stored for offline access.

 

The only reason I use a eTrex 30 is that after an extensive comparison my conclusion is that the Garmin is hands down more accurate and stable, whereas the iPhone often reports 30ft of accuracy and acts quite erratic in my experience. If the receiver was better I would only use the iPhone.

[+Styk]

Silly question... did you update the firmware? I have yet to see any GPS or phone not need a a few firmware updates to fix user reported bugs.

[+KC2WI]

I have a Garmin 62sc. It is much better than my old Magellan Meridian, but I expected better for a $300+ supposedly top of the line unit. It will sometimes give unstable readings that run me around in 20-40 foot circles while looking for a cache. Position updates are too slow. When aproaching a geocache/waypoint in a moving car, it is typical to drive a few hundred feet past the waypoint. You have to slow way down or actually stop while approaching and let the unit catch up.you' The programming / menu sequence is quirky. Certain functions are only accessible from certain screens and it doesn't always make sense.

[+BlackRose67]

Silly question... did you update the firmware? I have yet to see any GPS or phone not need a a few firmware updates to fix user reported bugs.

The problem as of late is that they will issue a firmware update that will fix something that was broken, but then break something that was working fine.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I have a Garmin 62sc. It is much better than my old Magellan Meridian, but I expected better for a $300+ supposedly top of the line unit. It will sometimes give unstable readings that run me around in 20-40 foot circles while looking for a cache. Position updates are too slow. When aproaching a geocache/waypoint in a moving car, it is typical to drive a few hundred feet past the waypoint. You have to slow way down or actually stop while approaching and let the unit catch up.you' The programming / menu sequence is quirky. Certain functions are only accessible from certain screens and it doesn't always make sense.

 

I also used Meridians ( Platinum )and went to the 62S....firmware ver 3.90 was the first to get rid of the erratic behavior , later versions are not as good regarding accuracy....I recently bought a second 62S and put 3.90 on it also....they now out preform anything I've been around in the field.

[+JohnnyVegas]

Part of the reason a GPS that is loaded with extra functions is that the processor in the GPS has to run all this crap which can slow down the response times. My old Magellan Explorist 500le appears to run faster than my newer Explorist 710. The 710 has many more functions and much larger map to run this creates more work for the GPS.

 

I do not think that the smart phone issue has much to do with sales of dedicated GPS sales. The number of people that buy a dedicated is very small. Reading other comments one can see that the ability for and older GPS to locate a geocache when compared to a newer one GPS is about the same. As geocaches we do not account for much of a market in the GPS market when compared to other segments, it is just the way it is.

 

Accuracy is about as good as it can be unless a person wants to buy a commercial grade GPS for several thousand dollars, but this will not make any easier to find a geocache. Unless the cache that was hidden was hidden with a commercial GPS. Much of finding a cache has to do with experience.

[tr_s]

Part of the reason a GPS that is loaded with extra functions is that the processor in the GPS has to run all this crap which can slow down the response times.

 

Just wondering, what response times are you talking about? Interface response times or GPS position update times?

[+JohnnyVegas]

AN easy example when using my Explorist 710 it takes it a bit longer than my older Exp 500LE to start pointing in the direction of the cache when I start a search. It is also slower to get to ground Zero as I close in on a cache. As far as interface times with GSAK (I think that is what you mean by interface times) they appear to be about the same.

[Fangamon]

This Etrex H pictured always in the hand and an Etrex 20 on but in the bag as backup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited November 1, 2013 by PigSti

[+kwcahart]

No, the GPS industry is not crap. I have owned and used an Oregon 450 for four years and had a couple of software versions that had the sticky problem. Since they fixed that I've never had any more problems. I've found over 2700 with the 450 so I guess it works pretty good.

[+Intrepid Dyad]

Ok, I think i got a good picture, but I'm still not sure on two things.

 

Alot of people are saying the 450 works fine, which makes me believe maybe mine is just broken. My problem is not with it's GPS tracking ability, but with it's response time to update your position on the screen. I know this is the issue, becuase i get the same lag from just turning in a circle. What often happens for me is i will try to walk up to ground zero and when it updates i would have walked past it or when i am turning to find out which direction to go in i will end up skipping over it many times before i get it narrowed down. The update lag is at least 2 seconds and when your trying to pin point something that is horrible. You have to turn a little and wait to see you aren't quite there and keep taking small turns and it takes a long time just to see which direction to go in. then you have to keep doing this as you walk a trail and get going the wrong way or are not sure which path you need to take next.

 

also someone stated I could use a bluetooth GPS with my iphone, but can anyone personally confirm that a bluetooth GPS will work with an iphone and with the geocaching app.

[tr_s]

The update lag is at least 2 seconds and when your trying to pin point something that is horrible

 

Considering the default GPS position update speed is once a second on most chipsets... well, that isn't too far off.

Is the update speed only "once every few seconds" even if you use the compass rose mode?

My eTrex30 seems to update the map arrow every second on the screen.

 

Not that I am a geocacher, but I fail to understand how such fast position updates would help anyone except for in speed sports.

There is a 5 Hz Garmin USB receiver intended to track racing cars and such.

The default method when reaching ground zero used to be "find a spot with good reception and use a compass from there". But probably not anymore.