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Geocaching and risk taking


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There were a couple comments made in another thread with which I disagree. Rather than hijack that other thread, I'll post some of my thoughts here.

 

If in doubt, turn back. No cache is worth your life.

 

Be safe, cache smart, and have fun. If you have to pause even for a second about retrieving a cache, don't, walk away and go find an easier one.

No cache is risk free. You could be injured or killed in a car accident as you drive to the cache. You could be mauled by a dog that suddenly goes berserk. You could be an innocent victim of a shooting simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

We constantly weigh the rewards each of us receives from searching for (and hopefully finding) geocaches against the inherent risks associated with that activity. Most of the time the rewards far outweigh the rewards, so the decision to geocache is an easy one.

 

Sometimes, however, the risks can be significant. Just because we have doubts and pause for a moment to consider those risks, that doesn't mean the decision automatically should be to turn back and not find the geocache. It means the decision is a close call and deserves pondering. If your considered opinion is that the rewards are not worth the risks to your health, then you indeed should walk away. But if your informed view is that the rewards exceed the risks, then a rational person would go in search of the cache (while taking all reasonable precautions to minimize the risks).

 

I'm very much in favor of careful geocaching. I think people should take care not to overestimate their abilities or underestimate the risks. I also believe cache hiders have a responsibility to alert people to significant hidden dangers, and I think Volunteer Reviewers should archive caches if they somehow become aware of significant hidden dangers that are not publicized.

 

But to say that one should not geocache in risky situations is to devalue the pleasure that some challenging caches hold for some geocachers. It's like saying skydiving wouldn't give me much pleasure, so nobody should risk their lives skydiving (or rock climbing or bungee jumping or zip-lining or hang gliding or SCUBA diving, etc., etc., etc.).

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Sometimes, however, the risks can be significant. Just because we have doubts and pause for a moment to consider those risks, that doesn't mean the decision automatically should be to turn back and not find the geocache. It means the decision is a close call and deserves pondering. If your considered opinion is that the rewards are not worth the risks to your health, then you indeed should walk away. But if your informed view is that the rewards exceed the risks, then a rational person would go in search of the cache (while taking all reasonable precautions to minimize the risks).

 

In my opinion a underestimated problem with geocaching and taking risks is that many cachers take risks they do not even know about and they are everything than well informed.

 

Geocaching gets many into doing things they would not do outside of geocaching.

 

A friend directed me to two recent German newspaper articles where it was reported about the dangers in urban water tunnel networks. Some of the dangers have of course been known to me, but I have not had heard about others (in a city in Germany the authorities discovered a geocache at such a location and removed it). I recall that Groundspeak once advertised and praised a Czech cache on a prominent place on the website which was of this type. Most visitors write comments like "cool" etc, but hardly any of them is aware of some of the risks.

 

Personally, I'm inclined to say that I regard the risks that the cacher is not even aware of (due to lack of knowledge) are more diverse and dangerous than the risks they are aware of (some of which are mentioned in your post).

 

I agree however with you that no cache is risk-free and that there are moments where one wants to take certain risks. There is nothing bad about that.

 

What really worries me however the more I learn about the geocaching scene is how often cachers and also the cache owners are not aware of some risks.

 

Cezanne

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common sense sometimes just slips away in the passion of upcoming discovery...ahhh,the human frailty element again...

 

I consider myself to be of average intelligence and I guess therefore that I have average common sense. The scary part is that this means that half the people in the world are dumber than me.

 

PAul

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Be safe, cache smart, and have fun. If you have to pause even for a second about retrieving a cache, don't, walk away and go find an easier one.

Sometimes, however, the risks can be significant. Just because we have doubts and pause for a moment to consider those risks, that doesn't mean the decision automatically should be to turn back and not find the geocache.

I take the "be safe" mantra as being aimed at people that won't recognize the risks, not at people that pause to carefully consider all the risks.

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Be safe, cache smart, and have fun. If you have to pause even for a second about retrieving a cache, don't, walk away and go find an easier one.

Sometimes, however, the risks can be significant. Just because we have doubts and pause for a moment to consider those risks, that doesn't mean the decision automatically should be to turn back and not find the geocache.

I take the "be safe" mantra as being aimed at people that won't recognize the risks, not at people that pause to carefully consider all the risks.

It's not the "be safe" mantra that I disagree with. (In fact, I strongly agree with it.) It's the second sentence that I think is, at times, wrong.

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Be safe, cache smart, and have fun. If you have to pause even for a second about retrieving a cache, don't, walk away and go find an easier one.

Sometimes, however, the risks can be significant. Just because we have doubts and pause for a moment to consider those risks, that doesn't mean the decision automatically should be to turn back and not find the geocache.

I take the "be safe" mantra as being aimed at people that won't recognize the risks, not at people that pause to carefully consider all the risks.

It's not the "be safe" mantra that I disagree with. (In fact, I strongly agree with it.) It's the second sentence that I think is, at times, wrong.

There's a difference between pausing to consider how you will get a cache and pausing to consider if you can get a cache. Often people don't think about the skillset needed, it more like "a cacher put it there, I'm a cacher, so I can get". People don't think about the difference, for example, between swimming in a pool, a lake and in surf; they 'swim' so anything in water fine.

 

The desire for the smilie is similar to what climbers call 'summit fever' - the all consuming desire to get to the summit. There are times when, no matter how close you are, you need to turn back. But there are many examples of climbers whose summit fever kept them going, and then didn't get back (the best example is Everest - sometimes you will need to turn back 300 feet from the summit, yep, it's right over there but it'll take you an hour or more to get there, but that means you'll be a couple of hours short of camp when weather closes in). I just had a cache situation similar in the Reno area. The cache was right there, but the obvious route up the tree was exposed and difficult. A step back, and an objective view of whether it was worth it (close call), and I spotted a slightly different approach (with in my skillset) and tried it (only because I wasn't alone) and succeded.

 

So I think what they are trying to say, if there is a moment of doubt whether you can get the cache, it's time to consider walking away - just put in draconian words to get the foolish to think.

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Today I hid a cache about 15/20 feet up a tree, due to the way it's put up the tree you have to climb a decent amount to get it (you cant use a stick or anything to unloop it etc...)

 

I've added a message to the description page asking that people only do it if they are sure they're capable, and have also recommended they do this with a friend just incase the worst does happen and they fall.

 

I would hope this is enough to make them think, and for example, if it was pouring with rain, or had been recently, and they have no grips on their shoes, are scared of heights or not the best at climbing, then they'll either take extra precautions or turn back.

 

Then again, I'm not the strongest climber, and do get a little wobbly-legged due to heights, but I wanted to place a more difficult cache than my usual hides and part of the fun of life is facing your fears and pushing your limits.

 

So it's all a risk, and I have to agree with the OP in that sense, it's about weighing up the risk vs reward.

 

For me the reward in setting up a hopefully tougher cache, and also practising my climbing skills (so I can attempt finding tougher caches myself in future) made it worth it.

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Be safe, cache smart, and have fun. If you have to pause even for a second about retrieving a cache, don't, walk away and go find an easier one.

Sometimes, however, the risks can be significant. Just because we have doubts and pause for a moment to consider those risks, that doesn't mean the decision automatically should be to turn back and not find the geocache.

...

So I think what they are trying to say, if there is a moment of doubt whether you can get the cache, it's time to consider walking away - just put in draconian words to get the foolish to think.

Maybe. But if the hyperbole causes people to think, then they likely will realize the statement is absurd and more easily dismiss it. I.e., it causes them to think about the wrong thing.

 

I believe a statement like, "If you have any doubts, then take a moment to carefully weigh the risks against the rewards before deciding whether or not to continue" probably is more effective at causing people to change their behaviors.

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Its all relative. Sometimes I have done further of a hike or been in a boat or climbed up a rock pile that before geocaching, I would never have considered. I have pushed myself to go further in some hikes or elevations or over water than I have done before. However, I do surrender sometimes and sometimes admit that some caches are beyond what I want to risk. A cache in the snow in the mountains? Not my type of risk. Caches in boats are few and far between but I try to minimize risk and many of the ones I wish I could get are ones I will not. Up a tree 20 feet? I would consider 6 feet, but I just do not feel climbing 20 feet worth a smiley. I can name more than 5 people in my caching contacts list in my phone who would do that, but me? No.

 

Any cache has risks, and some more than others especially as one gets into mountains and either over water or even under water.

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Ah! Euphoria! That high feeling one gets hiking and making it to the top of the mountain. I know that feeling! One does have to be careful with it, though.

On the other fin, I did climb twenty feet up the tree, and had the bottom of the cache in my fin. But, I did not feel safer climbing any higher. Had the cache in my fin! But could not open it to sign the log. So I DNFed the cache. Nope. Did not feel safe enough to climb any higher. Oh, well.

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I have 2 kids who need me. I won't do anything unduly risky because they need me to come home. I go hiking within the limits of my abilities. I take appropriate precautions such as bringing a cellphone, bear spray, that sort of thing. I've had to turn back from caches a few times when my instinct told me to stop.

 

If you're an experienced scuba diver or rock climber and can do a challenging cache safely, that's different than someone who climbs on a power pole without safety equipment for a cheap thrill. I think it's a selfish thing to do, especially if you have a spouse/kids waiting for you at home.

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If in doubt, turn back. No cache is worth your life.

 

I agree with this statement. Now as part of the "doubt" I would include the risk analysis I would do and the careful consideration needed. So I don't read this as "take zero risk". Indeed, all caches involve some risk, especially if they involve any driving to get to the start.

 

Be safe, cache smart, and have fun. If you have to pause even for a second about retrieving a cache, don't, walk away and go find an easier one.

 

I agree with the OP that the second sentence is using hyperbole to make a point. I need to consider the risk, and that takes more than a second. And just considering the risk doesn't mean the risk is too high. But I think the spirit of this statement is same as the first point.

 

I have walked away from many caches as I felt I could not do them safely. I have also done many caches where I felt physically challenged and uncomfortable, BUT felt that I could do it safely (or at least could safely abort at any time if the going became too difficult. )

 

So yes, I understand there is a balance. If I avoided all caches which I found the least bit risky I would lose out on a lot of fun. But my risk threshold is very much to err on the side of caution. I have a family dependent on me.

 

One just the other day: After 2 hours of walking in some tough terrain, the final location required a tree climb. The approach was awkward, and everything was wet and I could not get a good grip. I hated to give up, but I felt it was the right thing for me. All tree climbs make me uncomfortable, but I will do some anyway. I feel I know my limits and make the right decisions.

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I'm very much in favor of careful geocaching. I think people should take care not to overestimate their abilities or underestimate the risks.

(Emphasis mine)

 

This is the issue and easier said than done. Unfortunately, most people just cannot do that. As smart, rational, capable, and loaded with common sense as people believe themselves to be, it is proven that the majority will always overestimate their capabilities and underestimate (or be unaware of) the risks.

 

The first six chapters of "Everyday Survival: Why Smart People Do Stupid Things" by Laurence Gonzales postulates why this happens.

 

The stupid things the author is interested to investigate resemble the following:


  •  
  • People getting lost and be scared inside a state park, which is just 3/4th mile wide and a mile long
  • The author himself mistaking a real rattlesnake for a rattlesnake-looking ashtray of his grandmother
  • A pilot acting in a nervous and incorrect way to a seemingly usual issue during the flight thereby leading it to crash
  • Tourists eager to watch the volcanic eruption utterly incapable of estimating or even conceiving the magnitude of the impact
     

The author explains how the behavioral scripts that we create guide our behavior in same or similar situations and how they can make us fail to see the obvious anomalies. Also when we don’t have any scripts to follow in an entirely unexpected situation, we fail to act in any sensible manner which in some cases can lead to our doom

 

when modern people are faced with ancient hazards, they don’t know how to react. This is largely because we have dropped our guard and are in a ‘vacation state of mind’. With all the progress made by us, we have grown complacent and built up the illusion of safety net around us. We lost curiosity to know things around us.
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I have 2 kids who need me. I won't do anything unduly risky because they need me to come home. I go hiking within the limits of my abilities. I take appropriate precautions such as bringing a cellphone, bear spray, that sort of thing. I've had to turn back from caches a few times when my instinct told me to stop.

 

If you're an experienced scuba diver or rock climber and can do a challenging cache safely, that's different than someone who climbs on a power pole without safety equipment for a cheap thrill. I think it's a selfish thing to do, especially if you have a spouse/kids waiting for you at home.

SCUBA diving and rock climbing usually are selfish activities as well, since people generally do it for the pleasures they receive. Even with experience and attempting to minimize the risks, there's still the possibility of severe injury or even death (sometimes, even more so than climbing a power pole without safety equipment).

 

Nobody puts infinite value on their own lives or even on the happiness of their children. It's all about balance. As you noted, one shouldn't do anything "unduly" risky.

 

We constantly evaluate the costs and benefits of our everyday activities, usually without even consciously being aware of it. For example, every time someone drives across an intersection (perhaps with kids in the backseat), they've (hopefully) decided it's reasonably safe to do so (even if it isn't risk free).

 

As the risks increase and one begins to harbor doubts about whether the benefits exceed the costs, then it would be wise to more carefully evaluate the decision. In other words, if in doubt, ponder.

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If in doubt, turn back. No cache is worth your life.

I agree with this statement. Now as part of the "doubt" I would include the risk analysis I would do and the careful consideration needed. So I don't read this as "take zero risk".

Nor did I read it as "take zero risk." I read it more along the lines of: "If you have second thoughts about going after a cache, then don't go after it."

 

I disagree with that advice. If I have second thoughts about going after a cache, then I give it a careful second thought (and perhaps even a third thought). Then I make a decision based on that analysis.

 

Even with that extra pondering, there's always going to be some level of uncertainty about whether the rewards are indeed worth the risk. I cannot be 100 percent certain that I've made the correct decision. I can only do the best that I can do and (hopefully) live with that uncertainty.

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I'm very much in favor of careful geocaching. I think people should take care not to overestimate their abilities or underestimate the risks.

(Emphasis mine)

 

This is the issue and easier said than done. Unfortunately, most people just cannot do that. As smart, rational, capable, and loaded with common sense as people believe themselves to be, it is proven that the majority will always overestimate their capabilities and underestimate (or be unaware of) the risks.

 

You hit on a key point here; that people may be unaware of the risks. If you're looking for a cache and discover that's located 20 feet down the side of a 200 feet cliff it's pretty obvious what the risk is (falling to your death). However, some risks are not that obvious, and specifically in the case of the from from which this thread was spawned I believe that was the case. If I recall, the cache required swimming 500 feet or so to a buoy but the more important factor was that the water was 54F degrees. Some people mentioned "being a strong swimmer" and drowning. Nobody mentioned hypothermia. The exposure time in water that cold resulting in exhaustion, loss of dexterity, and other symptoms is probably much less than a lot people realize. According to one chart I've looked at in water that is 50-60F degrees loss of dexterity can result in 10-15 minutes. The risk of hypothermia in this case was likely quite high but those involved many not even have been aware of that risk.

 

As I understand it, one person survived the incident and was hospitalized. I suspect that they were not hospitalized for "almost drowning" but from symptoms of hypothermia.

 

 

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I may have missed mention of it in postings above, but I think the most common risk in geocaching arises from the fact that (particularly if you are alone) you can easily walk into trouble of some sort because you are looking at your GPSr and not where you are going!

I believe at least one geocaching death has been attributed to this as a cause.

I know that I’ve nearly broken my ankle (in a rabbit hole), walked into quite a few branches thick enough to make me regret it and slipped on a scree slope that had been firm ground just before I looked at my GPSr.

I usually try to check the surroundings and/or stop each time I look at my GPSr, but it’s a precaution easily forgotten in the excitement of the hunt.

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Probably the biggest risk is people who are not honest about their limitations. Would I climb a tree 15 or 20? No. Put a ladder there and maybe. Physical issues tell me no to using the limbs of the tree to climb but a ladder can be managed depending on various ailments and how they are acting that day. My wife might physically be able to climb the tree but has height issues. So no for her even with a ladder. Put a strong limb standing out from the tree a couple feet high with the cache reachable from that limb and I could manage that -- if the arthritis isn't acting up too bad that day. In that case I come back another day when it isn't. Well, to be truthful, since my wife and I cache as a team I'd just let her get it since she can handle low heights for the most part.

 

Caching as a team is mostly an activity for us to do together. However, with my back, bad knee, arthritis and so on, being in out of the way places alone probably isn't too bright. When you've put your back out by picking up a piece of paper off the floor, sneezing, or just leaning over someone's shoulder to help with a computer problem, getting out alone a mile off the road on a slippery trail looking for a lock and lock under a rock a hundred feet down and off the trail isn't a good idea. Throw in wet weather like the day we did that together and you're really asking for trouble.

 

Common sense kicks in too. Someone on here has mentioned a few times about reaching into a spot he couldn't see and getting bit by a copperhead. When I was young I learned that lesson unplugging hay from a hay baler. Rattlesnake didn't appreciate the ride he got when the baler picked him up and tried to bale him up with the hay. Fortunately I was smart enough not to put my hands in a place where it could get cut off and he only got to fight with the pitch fork. I assume he stayed away from hay balers after that. So I don't reach into things I can't see into and come prepared for that.

 

And while I wouldn't climb that tree or scale a rock wall, I wouldn't put down someone else for doing it. Know you limitations and the risk factors for that particular time.

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When I have second thoughts, I prefer to probe exactly why I'm having those thoughts. Is it simply because I'm nervous about high places? I can push forward on that. Am I tired? If so, maybe I really should reconsider before I make a mistake. Is there a valid reason to have a second thought? Then definitely think about it. Call it what you want, a sixth sense, intuition, spidey senses tingling, whatever, when I get that I listen and try to understand why before going ahead.

 

Below is a log of mine, where I did reconsider and return another time, for a solo crossing of untested ice to an island with a cache.

 

------------------------

 

Standing on the shore with my breath rising in wisps about my face, I looked across the ice, squinting against the shimmering glare of the sun. The island was out there, and it was calling to me. There was nothing between the island, the cache, and myself, nothing but a hundred-odd feet of ice to glory. I thumped a booted heel forcefully onto the ice, and it felt reassuringly solid. I took a deep breath, and the mid-afternoon air was crackling cold. Once again my eyes roved restlessly over the surface of the frozen lake, there were no dark spots, there was no moistness.

 

People had been out there, I could see that. The story was etched in footprints on the snow and ice. Perhaps they knew something I didn't. Perhaps they were braver than I. Or perhaps they merely weighed less. I had been here before, standing on the same spot, looking at the same island across the same ice. The weather had been as frigid, and a bitter wind had burned tears from my eyes until my lower eyelids were heavy with droplets of semi-frozen slush. I had thumped my foot on the ice, and it hadn't felt solid, there had been no rebound of energy traveling back up my leg. The center of the lake had been slightly dark, like an unblinking eye, veiled and dispassionate. The lake was a predator, and I the prey.

 

That day, I had stepped out on the ice, slowly, carefully. Pushing aside the warnings in my head, I took a careful step, a second, and then a third. With each step, the warnings grew louder, the desire to go back stronger. Pitting my will against my senses, I had taken a fourth step, and watched my foot sink an inch into slush before coming to rest. Not even ten feet from shore, and a good distance to go, I had turned back.

 

I talked it over afterward with Skyowl, my geocaching brother, and he had found it funny. Was he going to have to come out there, he asked, to go and fetch the cache for me to sign? Was I the type of guy, he wondered, who had to sit down to make wee-wee? Few things stiffen the spine like a well placed kick in the manhood when you're feeling vulnerable. Thanks for that, bro.

 

And so I found myself standing on the shore and judging the ice. This time the signs were good, this time the lake slept. A careful step became a second, a third, a fourth, and before I knew it I was halfway across. Taking a look around, I allowed myself a small smile, and continued across until I was able to slap a palm down on the shore of the island. SL and TFTC!

Edited by RobDJr
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With my tree cache that I placed a few days ago, I had previously chosen a different tree for the hide, it looked pretty easy to scale and was higher, so I thought it would be reasonably easy to scale higher up to place it.

 

However after about 10 feet up it got a little more difficult and the branches seemed weaker too, I contemplated a few options.

 

First of all, I climbed down, got my rope from my backpack, and tried again to see if the use of rope would help me scale any higher, but it didn't help much. So I decided I'd climb down and scout other nearby trees, I settled on a new target, planned my route up and set off up the new tree. got about 15/20 feet up and decided it was a good spot for the cache.

 

So never think that the first way is the only way.

 

Same goes for searching, if something looks too hard, dont just give up, take a step back and see if there is an easier way to approach it, then weigh up the risks and decide if you think you are capable of doing it.

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‘vacation state of mind’

Love this! A few years back I hosted an evening event near the starting point of one of my night caches. After the grub was nommed, and the schmoozing wrapped up, I offered to escort as many as would care to go, on my night cache. This night cache is pure bushwhacking, with a couple jaunts through swampy areas, nothing too serious, maybe knee deep, with the occasional water moccasin, and one jaunt through a chest deep swamp, with serious hazards.

 

After my safety briefing, there was one youngster who expressed his concern to his mother. This particular mom did not look like the outdoorsy type, based on her physical condition and manner of dress, which had me concerned. But what really worried me is when mom told the youth, "Of course it's safe. It wouldn't be a geocache if it wasn't safe. Clan is just setting up some spooky atmosphere". My mind was officially boggled... I tried desperately to explain to mom what the D/T ratings meant, and I spelled out the hazards clearly to her, and she blew it off. Because of her cluelessness, I had to basically hold her hand for about half a mile, where we hit the first minor swamp. After we made it across, she blamed me for misleading her. I walked her out of the woods and back to her car, shaking my head in wonder the whole time.

 

She obviously had a vacation state of mind regarding this hobby.

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I consider myself to be of average intelligence and I guess therefore that I have average common sense. The scary part is that this means that half the people in the world are dumber than me.

 

PAul

 

Wouldn't that depend on what is meant by average?

 

Mean? Median? Mode?

True, but does that make a huge difference in this case?

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I found a cache just the other night, didnt think much of it at the time, but I use my phone to cache with, so I was followning the GPS to the cahce, texting, all while navigating unknown terrain with no trail covered in snow and wet leaves. The risk did not come till I got to GZ where the container was under a large fallen tree trunk with a few good bits to grab on to. The only access was to come around the what would have been the base of the tree, find careful footing whild hanging on to the tree to grab the cache. One small slip and I could have fallen about 20-30 feet into an icy creek.

 

It was not till after on my way back texting my caching friend that I started to think about the risk I just took for the smiley. was it worth it, hell yea it was, but would I do that cache again in the dark? Hell no, that was just plain stupid of me, but I will end up doing something like that agian, it is just in my nature to take risks. However, I did use my flashligt to look at what I was getting into first and figure out the best and safest way to retrieve the cache. Not once did I stop to think about the risk nor did it ever cross my mind at the time I was after the cache.

 

I think this is the point that the OP is trying to make and a few posts ago was said, many times we do not stop to think if we should, we just go for it without thought because we have done it many times before and we survived. Often times I think that one may think to themselves "I know its a bigger risk than I usually take, but lets see if I can do it." Or the think there is no real danger completly unaware of what could happen, point in case of the thread this one has spun from... "Its not that far, I can swim that..." not realizing the full distance or what the water is and hypothremia can set it quickly.

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When I have second thoughts, I prefer to probe exactly why I'm having those thoughts. Is it simply because I'm nervous about high places? I can push forward on that. Am I tired? If so, maybe I really should reconsider before I make a mistake. Is there a valid reason to have a second thought? Then definitely think about it. Call it what you want, a sixth sense, intuition, spidey senses tingling, whatever, when I get that I listen and try to understand why before going ahead.

 

Below is a log of mine, where I did reconsider and return another time, for a solo crossing of untested ice to an island with a cache.

 

------------------------

 

Standing on the shore with my breath rising in wisps about my face, I looked across the ice, squinting against the shimmering glare of the sun. The island was out there, and it was calling to me. There was nothing between the island, the cache, and myself, nothing but a hundred-odd feet of ice to glory. I thumped a booted heel forcefully onto the ice, and it felt reassuringly solid. I took a deep breath, and the mid-afternoon air was crackling cold. Once again my eyes roved restlessly over the surface of the frozen lake, there were no dark spots, there was no moistness.

 

People had been out there, I could see that. The story was etched in footprints on the snow and ice. Perhaps they knew something I didn't. Perhaps they were braver than I. Or perhaps they merely weighed less. I had been here before, standing on the same spot, looking at the same island across the same ice. The weather had been as frigid, and a bitter wind had burned tears from my eyes until my lower eyelids were heavy with droplets of semi-frozen slush. I had thumped my foot on the ice, and it hadn't felt solid, there had been no rebound of energy traveling back up my leg. The center of the lake had been slightly dark, like an unblinking eye, veiled and dispassionate. The lake was a predator, and I the prey.

 

That day, I had stepped out on the ice, slowly, carefully. Pushing aside the warnings in my head, I took a careful step, a second, and then a third. With each step, the warnings grew louder, the desire to go back stronger. Pitting my will against my senses, I had taken a fourth step, and watched my foot sink an inch into slush before coming to rest. Not even ten feet from shore, and a good distance to go, I had turned back.

 

I talked it over afterward with Skyowl, my geocaching brother, and he had found it funny. Was he going to have to come out there, he asked, to go and fetch the cache for me to sign? Was I the type of guy, he wondered, who had to sit down to make wee-wee? Few things stiffen the spine like a well placed kick in the manhood when you're feeling vulnerable. Thanks for that, bro.

 

And so I found myself standing on the shore and judging the ice. This time the signs were good, this time the lake slept. A careful step became a second, a third, a fourth, and before I knew it I was halfway across. Taking a look around, I allowed myself a small smile, and continued across until I was able to slap a palm down on the shore of the island. SL and TFTC!

Great story! There is some ice, like on lakes in New York State (or further north) in mid-winter, that is "100%" safe. Other people constantly on it, etc. It seems you judged this ice to be in that category.

 

You say you were solo - I'm not sure if you mean just caching alone, or that there no one else was around. If I had one iota of question about ice on water, I'd only do it if someone was nearby. Self-rescue from icy water leaves a significant risk of death - both because of the difficulty of getting out, & the need for immediate help in getting dry and warm fast.

Edited by wmpastor
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I consider myself to be of average intelligence and I guess therefore that I have average common sense. The scary part is that this means that half the people in the world are dumber than me.

 

PAul

 

Wouldn't that depend on what is meant by average?

 

Mean? Median? Mode?

True, but does that make a huge difference in this case?

 

It would depend on the distribution.

 

If Bill Gates walks into a bar, at a stroke the average person in the bar is a millionaire. At least that's what happens when using the mean. If using the median it shifts the average marginally higher; if using the mode it makes no difference.

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^^^

All very true, but intelligence (measured by IQ) pretty much ranges from 0-200 or so. Unlike something open-ended like wealth, there is no IQ 3,000,000 person.

 

As for common sense (we know it when we see it?!), there is no scale - but there are no dramatic outliers (no one with 50,000 X as much common sense as the average person).

Edited by wmpastor
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I recently did a T4.5 cache in below freezing weather. The woods were so dense and rough that it took 45 minutes to go in about 1km & 30 minutes to go out. Snow was forecast & did start later. Yes, there was a road "nearby," but in the midst of the trek the fact of very real risk did cross my mind. The Jack London short story, "To Build a Fire," came to mind.

 

True, the objective risk here was far lower than in that story in terms of distance, temperature, etc. Also, the hike was well within my ability, although strenuous, & I was well-prepared (although 1 more layer of clothing would have been useful). However, one could imagine a set of circumstances (realistic, not far-fetched) that could have been dangerous - things like getting disoriented and/or injured, losing battery power, etc.

 

I should mention that this was also on state "game land," which according to a posted note, apparently was enough to keep one cacher away (my coat was highly visible).

 

The point of the story is that we can underestimate risk even with situations just slightly outside our normal scope of familiarity. Beyond that, we need to make a definite effort to learn what's involved, or we can seriously underestimate risk.

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Interesting thread.

 

I own http://coord.info/GC4PYCF which is a tree climb. Any comments on my wording re the risk are welcomed. You'll see that the STF (who also owns a tree cache, on my to-do list) has one arm!

 

Last Saturday I did a gentle but fun tree climb with OS Junior who's 4 1/2. A step from a fence into a cradle of boughs about 5-8 feet up (tree on a bank) but easily room for us both to stand and sign the log. Irresponsible parent? quite the opposite I hope, in that I made sure he was aware he needed to be careful, hold on and not start clowning around.

 

I used to go caving, which of course can be extremely, fatally risky - so you take lots of precautions.

 

Here's one I passed on in Grenoble http://coord.info/GC3RHZP

Not managing to insert my own photo, but if you look on Streetview the cache is on the grey pole. Seems to get found fairly regularly. You have to run up the bridge to get it. Possibilities of falling 20' onto the road one way, 80' into the river the other.

 

A CO local to me has started hiding caches down the drains. Despite my caving history, I'm putting them on the ignore list. This sort of thing: http://coord.info/GC4TXRG - just noticed FTF is the guy with one arm! He's hardcore!

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Heck...even a 1.5 star terrain can be a risk in certain conditions. Just yesterday I literally fell on my a** simply walking down a flight of stairs at a local park on the way to a cache. It's been raining a lot over the last week and that combined with all the leaves made for some slippery timber steps.

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I recently did a T4.5 cache in below freezing weather. The woods were so dense and rough that it took 45 minutes to go in about 1km & 30 minutes to go out. Snow was forecast & did start later. Yes, there was a road "nearby," but in the midst of the trek the fact of very real risk did cross my mind. The Jack London short story, "To Build a Fire," came to mind.

 

True, the objective risk here was far lower than in that story in terms of distance, temperature, etc. Also, the hike was well within my ability, although strenuous, & I was well-prepared (although 1 more layer of clothing would have been useful). However, one could imagine a set of circumstances (realistic, not far-fetched) that could have been dangerous - things like getting disoriented and/or injured, losing battery power, etc.

 

I should mention that this was also on state "game land," which according to a posted note, apparently was enough to keep one cacher away (my coat was highly visible).

 

The point of the story is that we can underestimate risk even with situations just slightly outside our normal scope of familiarity. Beyond that, we need to make a definite effort to learn what's involved, or we can seriously underestimate risk.

Haycock sees hundreds of hunters each year deer season alone.

 

CJ and I hunted squirrel with my Niece on most of the mountain (even found a cache in '05 just down where you were) and not thought it different than many other game lands we've hunted.

 

So yes, I agree that there is a bit of risk taking when situations are outside the scope of ones familiarity or skill set.

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^^^

All very true, but intelligence (measured by IQ) pretty much ranges from 0-200 or so. Unlike something open-ended like wealth, there is no IQ 3,000,000 person.

 

As for common sense (we know it when we see it?!), there is no scale - but there are no dramatic outliers (no one with 50,000 X as much common sense as the average person).

 

Speak for yourself :ph34r: :ph34r:

 

Seriously, fair point on IQ that is practically capped even if theoretically unlimited. Where intelligence is concerned you're not likely to get an extreme outlier that drags everybody's intelligence up so dramatically.

 

In response to the query about "mean, median, mode" regarding which average was used when the person said "I'm of average common sense, which means half the people are dumber than me", we can only conclude the "half the people" part if "average" means median. If the mean or mode are used it would depend on the distribution.

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I recently did a T4.5 cache in below freezing weather. The woods were so dense and rough that it took 45 minutes to go in about 1km & 30 minutes to go out. Snow was forecast & did start later. Yes, there was a road "nearby," but in the midst of the trek the fact of very real risk did cross my mind. The Jack London short story, "To Build a Fire," came to mind.

 

True, the objective risk here was far lower than in that story in terms of distance, temperature, etc. Also, the hike was well within my ability, although strenuous, & I was well-prepared (although 1 more layer of clothing would have been useful). However, one could imagine a set of circumstances (realistic, not far-fetched) that could have been dangerous - things like getting disoriented and/or injured, losing battery power, etc.

 

I should mention that this was also on state "game land," which according to a posted note, apparently was enough to keep one cacher away (my coat was highly visible).

 

The point of the story is that we can underestimate risk even with situations just slightly outside our normal scope of familiarity. Beyond that, we need to make a definite effort to learn what's involved, or we can seriously underestimate risk.

Haycock sees hundreds of hunters each year deer season alone.

 

CJ and I hunted squirrel with my Niece on most of the mountain (even found a cache in '05 just down where you were) and not thought it different than many other game lands we've hunted.

 

So yes, I agree that there is a bit of risk taking when situations are outside the scope of ones familiarity or skill set.

 

Best not to go out with that comedy antler hat you got given at the Christmas party?

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I recently did a T4.5 cache in below freezing weather. The woods were so dense and rough that it took 45 minutes to go in about 1km & 30 minutes to go out. Snow was forecast & did start later. Yes, there was a road "nearby," but in the midst of the trek the fact of very real risk did cross my mind. The Jack London short story, "To Build a Fire," came to mind.

 

True, the objective risk here was far lower than in that story in terms of distance, temperature, etc. Also, the hike was well within my ability, although strenuous, & I was well-prepared (although 1 more layer of clothing would have been useful). However, one could imagine a set of circumstances (realistic, not far-fetched) that could have been dangerous - things like getting disoriented and/or injured, losing battery power, etc.

 

I should mention that this was also on state "game land," which according to a posted note, apparently was enough to keep one cacher away (my coat was highly visible).

 

The point of the story is that we can underestimate risk even with situations just slightly outside our normal scope of familiarity. Beyond that, we need to make a definite effort to learn what's involved, or we can seriously underestimate risk.

Haycock sees hundreds of hunters each year deer season alone.

 

CJ and I hunted squirrel with my Niece on most of the mountain (even found a cache in '05 just down where you were) and not thought it different than many other game lands we've hunted.

 

So yes, I agree that there is a bit of risk taking when situations are outside the scope of ones familiarity or skill set.

 

Best not to go out with that comedy antler hat you got given at the Christmas party?

 

I'm always amazed at some of the stories I hear of people being shot while hunting.

 

The staff at my local state park mentioned a guy who was wearing brown, squatting down among reeds, using a turkey call, during turkey season. It's perhaps not surprising someone with a rifle thought he was a turkey...

 

Then there was the guy who was hiking in the state forest during bear season wearing a black coat and a black hat. When approached by a forest ranger he didn't see anything wrong with his choice of attire.

 

Sometimes the mind boggles...

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I often do dangerous, risky things. Being a little nervous is a good thing, as you are likely very alert and likely to take it seriously with precautions. However if you are excessively nervous, then the best thing is to take a pause and walk away. You are likely to screw up, or your brain is telling you there is something wrong. Wisdom is the ability to know the difference, as no cache is worth it. Being not nervous at all could also be a hazard, due to carelessness.

 

Rappelling 200' is not dangerous at all if you have the right equipment and know what you are doing. It's much more unsafe to reach into a hole in a lampost full of live wires. Being too nervous could cause you to do something wrong, and perhaps you should start out rapelling at a lower height and gradually increase the distance incrementally. There was a day that I did this several times without any incident. Then, rushing back to the car at dusk, I tripped over a rock near the parking lot and sliced my arm open and nearly cracked my skull. This is what I'm talking about. :D

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Rappelling 200' is not dangerous at all if you have the right equipment and know what you are doing. It's much more unsafe to reach into a hole in a lampost full of live wires. Being too nervous could cause you to do something wrong, and perhaps you should start out rapelling at a lower height and gradually increase the distance incrementally. There was a day that I did this several times without any incident. Then, rushing back to the car at dusk, I tripped over a rock near the parking lot and sliced my arm open and nearly cracked my skull. This is what I'm talking about. :D

 

I love your examples! I think the word that everyone is missing here is unnecessary. Don't take any unnecessary risks.

 

You are correct in that searching for a cache in a lamppost can be more risky than searching for a cache on the side of a sheer cliff. It's all about how you manage the risk. You are at a greater risk of hurting yourself by touching wires with your bare hands than you are falling from a mountain while wearing repelling gear. Unfortunately, Geocachers often choose to take unnecessary risks like touching wires with their bare hands when something as simple as wearing gloves will substantially reduce the risk. I'm not sure the exact reason for this. It could be just not being able to identify the risk or just being comfortable the risk since electricity is a part of our everyday lives. But just because we are comfortable with something doesn't make it safe.

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I'm always amazed at some of the stories I hear of people being shot while hunting.

 

The staff at my local state park mentioned a guy who was wearing brown, squatting down among reeds, using a turkey call, during turkey season. It's perhaps not surprising someone with a rifle thought he was a turkey...

 

Then there was the guy who was hiking in the state forest during bear season wearing a black coat and a black hat. When approached by a forest ranger he didn't see anything wrong with his choice of attire.

 

Sometimes the mind boggles...

Yep. Just two weeks ago, in the middle of bear season, spotted a guy about to enter a game lands trail (leading to a State park) wearing a black puffy jacket.

Flagged him down and after explaining, gave him one of those cheapy throw-away orange vests. Didn't look back to see if he wore it...

Signs in most parking areas, "Hunters are required to wear orange, you should too", but goes unread.

Our State's looking for ways to get the non-hunting public more aware, but none are working.

 

We temp disable our game lands hides during the very-busy rifled season for deer, as there always seemed to be someone with the attitude of, "my tax money pays your salary..." , interrupts hunters and put themself at risk.

Tax monies aren't used in game lands here. Hunter's licenses, timber, oil and gas leases pay their bills.

Really can't keep out of game lands for just two weeks out of the year?

 

Last year (yet) another got hurt in a popular half hike, half climb waterfall that's on mostly game lands property.

People posted comments about how things should/could be improved to the area for hiking and tourism and the game commission's response was, "We're in the hunting business, not the hiking business".

- That may change if folks don't wise up. For now they're playing for free...

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I often do dangerous, risky things. Being a little nervous is a good thing, as you are likely very alert and likely to take it seriously with precautions. However if you are excessively nervous, then the best thing is to take a pause and walk away. You are likely to screw up, or your brain is telling you there is something wrong. Wisdom is the ability to know the difference, as no cache is worth it. Being not nervous at all could also be a hazard, due to carelessness.

 

It isn't just carelessness. It can also be not knowing the risk involved. For example, one of the November Caches of the Week on the Geocaching Blog is an EarthCache call Big Four Ice Caves. It's a very beautiful place to visit and I recommend visiting this EarthCache. However, you wouldn't know it by just looking at them but the ice caves are very dynamic and sections frequently collapse and sometimes cause avalanches.

 

I doubt that the woman in the photo below realizes how much danger she is in by doing something as innocent as standing under that melting arch of literally tons of ice and snow. It makes for a cool photo but the risk isn't necessary for logging the EarthCache. By simply moving a couple feet over she could get an equally cool photo and substantially reduce her risk of ending up crushed under tons of ice.

 

7baecadc560c11e398200e56170da01a_8.jpg

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I often do dangerous, risky things. Being a little nervous is a good thing, as you are likely very alert and likely to take it seriously with precautions. However if you are excessively nervous, then the best thing is to take a pause and walk away. You are likely to screw up, or your brain is telling you there is something wrong. Wisdom is the ability to know the difference, as no cache is worth it. Being not nervous at all could also be a hazard, due to carelessness.

 

It isn't just carelessness. It can also be not knowing the risk involved.

 

Agreed. I also don't think you can talk about risk without considering the consequence of failure. Crossing a slippery log a few feet above a creek might have a high risk of falling off the log but the consequence of failure may only mean that you're going to get wet. There may be less risk of crossing a wooden bridge over a deep gorge of falling off the bridge but he consequences could be fatal.

 

Knowing the risk involved may be closely related to the apparent consequences. For example, a couple of years ago I was looking at a cache listing for a canoe/kayak cache that showed the CO and a friend in a canoe (neither wearing a PFD) going over what appeared to be a small low head dam. The thing about low head dams is that they appear innocuous, and if you don't mess up, many can be navigated fairly easily. The problems happen if something goes wrong, you capsize, and within seconds you're in the middle of a recirculating water washing machine and you're not going to get out without external assistance. Low head dams kill many people every year, but that didn't stop the CO writing that they had gone down that stretch of river without incident several times, so "it is safe".

 

 

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Doesn't matter if you are geo-caching or or driving a car - plan A failing needs to be considered with Plan B bailing you out. If no plan B, plan A better be foolproof. I agree that if the danger is not obvious one should hide the cache elsewhere. Crabtree waterfall in Virginia has experienced 30 deaths because the victims did not believe the danger was there and ignored the warnings to stay on the trail. Think of an astronaunt without a tether - might be bad! If you see a dangerous cache then say so and point out the problem - a good warning might go along way to moving the cache or reconsideration of doing it at all.

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I often do dangerous, risky things. Being a little nervous is a good thing, as you are likely very alert and likely to take it seriously with precautions. However if you are excessively nervous, then the best thing is to take a pause and walk away. You are likely to screw up, or your brain is telling you there is something wrong. Wisdom is the ability to know the difference, as no cache is worth it. Being not nervous at all could also be a hazard, due to carelessness.

 

It isn't just carelessness. It can also be not knowing the risk involved. For example, one of the November Caches of the Week on the Geocaching Blog is an EarthCache call Big Four Ice Caves. It's a very beautiful place to visit and I recommend visiting this EarthCache. However, you wouldn't know it by just looking at them but the ice caves are very dynamic and sections frequently collapse and sometimes cause avalanches.

 

I doubt that the woman in the photo below realizes how much danger she is in by doing something as innocent as standing under that melting arch of literally tons of ice and snow. It makes for a cool photo but the risk isn't necessary for logging the EarthCache. By simply moving a couple feet over she could get an equally cool photo and substantially reduce her risk of ending up crushed under tons of ice.

 

7baecadc560c11e398200e56170da01a_8.jpg

 

On seeing the above pic a shiver went up my spine. It reminded me of the death of 2 young (Australian) guys on holiday in New Zealand. They ignored warning signs at a lookout point and entered an ice cave at the foot of the (I think) Fox glacier which was about 300 metres away. The cave collapsed killing both instantly. Somehow they were blind to the risk. (Perhaps another tow Darwin awards earned)

 

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/australian-brothers-killed-in-glacier-adventure/2009/01/09/1231004236713.html

Edited by colleda
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I often do dangerous, risky things. Being a little nervous is a good thing, as you are likely very alert and likely to take it seriously with precautions. However if you are excessively nervous, then the best thing is to take a pause and walk away. You are likely to screw up, or your brain is telling you there is something wrong. Wisdom is the ability to know the difference, as no cache is worth it. Being not nervous at all could also be a hazard, due to carelessness.

 

It isn't just carelessness. It can also be not knowing the risk involved. For example, one of the November Caches of the Week on the Geocaching Blog is an EarthCache call Big Four Ice Caves. It's a very beautiful place to visit and I recommend visiting this EarthCache. However, you wouldn't know it by just looking at them but the ice caves are very dynamic and sections frequently collapse and sometimes cause avalanches.

 

I doubt that the woman in the photo below realizes how much danger she is in by doing something as innocent as standing under that melting arch of literally tons of ice and snow. It makes for a cool photo but the risk isn't necessary for logging the EarthCache. By simply moving a couple feet over she could get an equally cool photo and substantially reduce her risk of ending up crushed under tons of ice.

 

7baecadc560c11e398200e56170da01a_8.jpg

 

On seeing the above pic a shiver went up my spine. It reminded me of the death of 2 young (Australian) guys on holiday in New Zealand. They ignored warning signs at a lookout point and entered an ice cave at the foot of the (I think) Fox glacier which was about 300 metres away. The cave collapsed killing both instantly. Somehow they were blind to the risk. (Perhaps another tow Darwin awards earned)

 

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/australian-brothers-killed-in-glacier-adventure/2009/01/09/1231004236713.html

There are many sign around the Big Four Ice Caves warning against going into or on top of the caves. But we keep hearing about injuries or death from those who ignore such. They can't plead ignorance to the danger with the number of signs along the trail and around the caves themselves.

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^^^

All very true, but intelligence (measured by IQ) pretty much ranges from 0-200 or so. Unlike something open-ended like wealth, there is no IQ 3,000,000 person.

 

As for common sense (we know it when we see it?!), there is no scale - but there are no dramatic outliers (no one with 50,000 X as much common sense as the average person).

 

Speak for yourself :ph34r: :ph34r:

 

Seriously, fair point on IQ that is practically capped even if theoretically unlimited. Where intelligence is concerned you're not likely to get an extreme outlier that drags everybody's intelligence up so dramatically.

 

In response to the query about "mean, median, mode" regarding which average was used when the person said "I'm of average common sense, which means half the people are dumber than me", we can only conclude the "half the people" part if "average" means median. If the mean or mode are used it would depend on the distribution.

Agreed. My point was that "average" & "median" were were for all practical purposes interchangeable in the situation at hand. However, yes, it's important to remember the difference and to know that if someone or something is "average," it doesn't necessarily mean that 50% of the group is above and 50% is below.

 

"Average" is used colloquially to mean "typical," which really in that case means the median situation. If Bill Gates is in the room, the wealth distribution is so skewed that more precise language is needed.

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You're gonna' die some day from something. I think those FTF'ers racing out to claim their prize or those people who don't look up from their phones and GPS'rs are in the most danger. Use common sense. And hope for some luck. -20 yesterday and I walked into the woods alone in 15 inches of snow to make a find. Smart? Nope. But it was fun...

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