Newbie Education

[+spockske]

I wonder if my topic will get any attention, but having geocaching as something that I care about dearly, I hope this message reaches the right people. Knowing my friends in the US, such a long message has little chance to get any attention, but hey, I am Belgian. What did you expect?

 

I've been many years a PADI Dive Instructor in Egypt and Belgium (a US organization I highly respect) and learned one major message when comparing PADI with local diving organization in Belgium that were made of "volunteers": people don't respect what you offer them until they have to pay for it. Even more important, paid education (controlled and with clear objectives and musts) makes people aware of what's really important and safe/right to do, but also what the sport/hobby is really about.

 

Now, many years later, running my own consulting business and reaching the sixties in a few years, I am a geocaching addict. But I am worried. Worried that this great outdoor hobby will kill itself before I drop dead and get buried.

 

I don't know how it is at the other side of the great pound, but here in Europe the hobby is quickly (increasingly rapidly) degrading in quality as a victim of its own (rightful) popularity.The "average" cache is a micro, the "average" walking distance is 10 M from your car, the average deviation of coordinates degrades rapidly back to the quality of GPS devises of the old ages, the quality of listings (in language and interesting information) degrades day by day. The only things that increase are the number of players, the number of logs expressing the frustrations of the experienced cachers and the conflicts with local authorities (especially those regulating the valued woods and forest) .

 

So what's my point? I strongly believe it's time for Groundspeak to abandon its strategy, which was great to develop the business during the past 10 years, to keep this hobby open to people keeping the lowest threshold possible. I believe it's time to build a quality threshold: a starter's geocaching compulsory education course before allowing to search or place geocahes. Let me be immediately clear, this should not be free of charge and Groundspeak should and must make money here not just to grow the business in the right direction, but most of all to assure that certified trainers know exactly what they are and should be teaching.

 

I know, this will trigger worldwide rage from those who want everything for free. For them, welcome to opencaching.com and welcome to boredom.

 

Cheers and greetings from a lonely Don Quichote from Belgium,

 

spockske

 

Note: obviously, it's clear I believe there should only be premium memberships. It's the non-premium members that most of all (I realize this is a generalization) spoil our hobby.

Edited September 30, 2013 by spockske

[+stijnhommes]

It's the non-premium members that most of all (I realize this is a generalization) spoil our hobby.

Do you have any evidence of that, because as far as I can tell, premium-only caches are only less likely to be found, but just as likely to be ripped or damaged by cachers.

 

I completely agree that mandatory training could improve the caching experience, but if you did that, the hobby would die out. Like with anything else, cachers age and die and new blood would be discouraged because no one is going to take a mandatory paid course without knowing in advance what they get out of it.

[+spockske]

It's the non-premium members that most of all (I realize this is a generalization) spoil our hobby.

Do you have any evidence of that, because as far as I can tell, premium-only caches are only less likely to be found, but just as likely to be ripped or damaged by cachers.

 

I completely agree that mandatory training could improve the caching experience, but if you did that, the hobby would die out. Like with anything else, cachers age and die and new blood would be discouraged because no one is going to take a mandatory paid course without knowing in advance what they get out of it.

 

Your reaction proofs my experience, with what I wrote I would only upset people who want everything for free. My premium caches have never been ripped. My non-premium, by the dozens. Do you really think I just wrote that note because I am bored ????

Edited September 30, 2013 by spockske

[+spockske]

I completely agree that mandatory training could improve the caching experience, but if you did that, the hobby would die out. Like with anything else, cachers age and die and new blood would be discouraged because no one is going to take a mandatory paid course without knowing in advance what they get out of it.

 

Before you react, may be investigate on, many, many, many other similar sports/hobbies that work on the same principle ... Are you that afraid to spent two evenings a few hours on knowing that a bogus is not where the cache is avoiding people to climb the Eifel Tower?

 

 

[+SirDonB]

While part of me might agree with you about the training thing, maybe have 2 options like the membership, a basic crash course that is free, then a more in depth course that is paid. If these were a requirement when I joined a few years ago, I would not have joined period. It was because I could join for free, find a few caches, and do the 3 month premium membership a few times, that I am looking to give myself an annual Premium membership on my next birthday. I have enjoyed some of the benefits of the paid membership as well as the free membership I started with.

 

Like you, I dont know how they play the game over on your side of the pond, but I know the non-cachers I have taken with me as well as my kids, I try to teach them respect, and to follow the rules as best as can be. Some hides are slightly tougher, but over all it is easy enough. Here in the Northeastern USA, I see more micro, nano, and smaller caches than I would like. My kids when they go with me, like to find the bigger ones with tradables in them. My hides will be reflecting that and geared with the kids in mind. I will be looking to build unique hides as much as I can, not for the favorite points or anything, but because I believe in a quality cache that stands out against the average hide.

[+SirDonB]

I completely agree that mandatory training could improve the caching experience, but if you did that, the hobby would die out. Like with anything else, cachers age and die and new blood would be discouraged because no one is going to take a mandatory paid course without knowing in advance what they get out of it.

 

Before you react, may be investigate on, many, many, many other similar sports/hobbies that work on the same principle ... Are you that afraid to spent two evenings a few hours on knowing that a bogus is not where the cache is avoiding people to climb the Eifel Tower?

 

The training schedule would have to be very flexible, many people like myself, do not work just days... I would like to attend geocaching functions, but most are held in the evenings while I am working... so there would need to be some classes offered during the day, evening, and weekend times to give the best chance of success. As well as predetermined caches that offer a variety of types and sizes for the area.

[+spockske]

While part of me might agree with you about the training thing, maybe have 2 options like the membership, a basic crash course that is free, then a more in depth course that is paid. If these were a requirement when I joined a few years ago, I would not have joined period. It was because I could join for free, find a few caches, and do the 3 month premium membership a few times, that I am looking to give myself an annual Premium membership on my next birthday. I have enjoyed some of the benefits of the paid membership as well as the free membership I started with.

 

Like you, I dont know how they play the game over on your side of the pond, but I know the non-cachers I have taken with me as well as my kids, I try to teach them respect, and to follow the rules as best as can be. Some hides are slightly tougher, but over all it is easy enough. Here in the Northeastern USA, I see more micro, nano, and smaller caches than I would like. My kids when they go with me, like to find the bigger ones with tradables in them. My hides will be reflecting that and geared with the kids in mind. I will be looking to build unique hides as much as I can, not for the favorite points or anything, but because I believe in a quality cache that stands out against the average hide.

 

Fully agree. I didn't intend to write strict do's and don'ts in my posts but only suggested a change of direction of thinking. Thanks for your post.

Edited September 30, 2013 by spockske

[+spockske]

I completely agree that mandatory training could improve the caching experience, but if you did that, the hobby would die out. Like with anything else, cachers age and die and new blood would be discouraged because no one is going to take a mandatory paid course without knowing in advance what they get out of it.

 

Before you react, may be investigate on, many, many, many other similar sports/hobbies that work on the same principle ... Are you that afraid to spent two evenings a few hours on knowing that a bogus is not where the cache is avoiding people to climb the Eifel Tower?

 

The training schedule would have to be very flexible, many people like myself, do not work just days... I would like to attend geocaching functions, but most are held in the evenings while I am working... so there would need to be some classes offered during the day, evening, and weekend times to give the best chance of success. As well as predetermined caches that offer a variety of types and sizes for the area.

 

Indeed.

[+niraD]

I know, this will trigger worldwide rage from those who want everything for free.

I don't think so.

 

Keep in mind that Groundspeak does not own geocaching. They are just a listing service. If I want to take my nieces and nephews geocaching, or if I want to take some kids from church geocaching, or if I want to take my wife geocaching, then there is nothing Groundspeak can do to stop me. I'll teach the people with me the basics of geocaching (sign the log, trade fairly, replace the cache), but I'm not going to make them take some "compulsory education course" first.

 

There is no outrage here. I'm just continuing to go geocaching the way I've done for years.

 

And I'm hoping that Groundspeak doesn't drive geocachers away with "compulsory education courses" or any similar bonehead ideas. I especially hope Groundspeak doesn't drive geocachers to Garmin's opencaching.com site, because I dislike some of the things Garmin is doing with it.

 

But still, there's no outrage.

[+Walts Hunting]

Nice but somewhat naive thought. Groundspeak is first and foremost a business. No business plan ever involves making it harder for people to join. While this makes a nice conversation and people may feel better venting nothing is going to change.

[+SirDonB]

As far as education topics go, I would have Cache types, sizes, containers, and trackables to start with a basic crash course. Cache size and container would be the most common for that cache area/region. Trackables would cover what they are, etiquette, and logging.

[+dizzabella]

I dislike the idea of formal training, but it would be a nice idea if people had a minimum number of finds before they are allowed to hide one. I have noticed one where the hider has never even recorded a find and a few more where the hider has less than 10 finds. If you have only found 10 and they were all micros in a lamp post, how are you going to know what a good cache really is

[+SirDonB]

I dislike the idea of formal training, but it would be a nice idea if people had a minimum number of finds before they are allowed to hide one. I have noticed one where the hider has never even recorded a find and a few more where the hider has less than 10 finds. If you have only found 10 and they were all micros in a lamp post, how are you going to know what a good cache really is

 

ok, good point and the whole reason why I choose to wait to hide my first till I had close to 100 finds under my belt. I wanted to try and get a good mix of caches to see what I liked and didn't like so much to decide on the types of caches I wanted to hide for others to find. I have come to realize there is an over abundance of LPC, micros, nanos, etc in my area as well as small to nano hidden in the woods. So I am planning out some good quality caches lager caches to hide. I am gonna buck the local trend by placing decent well thought out caches.

[+spockske]

I know, this will trigger worldwide rage from those who want everything for free.

I don't think so.

 

Keep in mind that Groundspeak does not own geocaching. They are just a listing service. If I want to take my nieces and nephews geocaching, or if I want to take some kids from church geocaching, or if I want to take my wife geocaching, then there is nothing Groundspeak can do to stop me. I'll teach the people with me the basics of geocaching (sign the log, trade fairly, replace the cache), but I'm not going to make them take some "compulsory education course" first.

 

There is no outrage here. I'm just continuing to go geocaching the way I've done for years.

 

And I'm hoping that Groundspeak doesn't drive geocachers away with "compulsory education courses" or any similar bonehead ideas. I especially hope Groundspeak doesn't drive geocachers to Garmin's opencaching.com site, because I dislike some of the things Garmin is doing with it.

 

But still, there's no outrage.

 

I expected this. Although similar hobbies (also managed by good business people) have compulsory courses that only improve the quality of the hobby for everybody, the idea it should be introduced in our hobby is immediately labeled as: naive, bonehead idea (more creative words will certainly follow).Immediately qualifying an idea as "bonehead" does fit in my category of "outrage" (= strongly dislike).

 

And because we don't like the idea we also immediately assume the guy is an idiot, and thus we need to teach him on Groundspeak. Great!

 

Thank you indeed for teaching me on Goundspeak. And yes, you can take your whole village searching for a cache, and you can hide millions of caches within one mile and announce them on your own webpage, but as you say yourself, Groundspeak controls the caches that get listed on their site. So they can control who gets allowed to publish one on their site and guess what, that's where probably 95% of the people go when they want to go and look for a cache.To make one analogy, PADI (and of course it would never be comparable with geocaching as diving requires much more teaching than geocaching ever will) owns the biggest part of the diving business even being the most expensive one while,still today, in many countries some people also teach diving for free (local clubs and organizations) and while in many countries/places a formal education is not compulsory.

 

I am afraid, that doing nothing, will not only drive people to opencaching.com and others for some time, losing part of the business in the short run (which is already happening), but that on the long run, many people will search for another hobby. Again, I don't know how it's going in the US, but here in Europe some people are turning their back on geocaching as a whole, and the numbers are not big yet, but growing, and growing. And with them, already now, my experience of geocaching compared to only a few years ago degrades day after day. The exponential growth of geocachers has not done, so far, any good to our hobby. The quality of caches, in all its aspects, is degrading with almost every cache being listed today. Requiring a minimum number of finds doesn't help. Finding one hundred meaningless caches only educates people to list another meaningless cache.

Edited October 1, 2013 by spockske

[+niraD]

Groundspeak controls the caches that get listed on their site. So they can control who gets allowed to publish one on their site and guess what, that's where probably 95% of the people go when they want to go and look for a cache.

And how long do you think that would last if Groundspeak tried to require a "compulsory education course" before allowing people to search for geocaches (presumably by denying access to cache listings to anyone who had not completed the "compulsory education course")?

 

FWIW, I'm actually in favor of increased standards for cache owners. A while ago, someone suggested that those listing caches be required to pass a test to demonstrate a basic understanding of the guidelines, and I'd like to see something like that implemented.

 

But Groundspeak has no ability to enforce a "compulsory education course" before allowing people to search for geocaches. Trying to enforce such a thing would just drive people to other listing sites, and that's why I think it's a bonehead (i.e., stupid, clumsy) idea.

 

But seriously, there's no outrage here. Maybe a little eye-rolling, but no outrage. So many good ideas have remained nothing but discussions here in the forums. I doubt this bad idea will go any further. And I expect Jeremy to stick to his pledge to keep the basic game free.

[+spockske]

But seriously, there's no outrage here. Maybe a little eye-rolling, but no outrage. So many good ideas have remained nothing but discussions here in the forums. I doubt this bad idea will go any further. And I expect Jeremy to stick to his pledge to keep the basic game free.

 

Only fools never change their mind. He did once already, remember the "Challenges" which I disliked from the very beginning and predicted they would disappear within 5 years, it didn't take that long. When the business evolves in to a majority of crappy caches as we experience now, I think something needs to be done before it's too late. But in a FB session in our region, we decided not to wait for the gods to come to their senses. We decided to start our own initiation courses hoping to get the quality of the caches back to a higher level, at least in our little region. So although I started this topic, consider it closed.

 

 

[+K13]

If you think people are leaving the hobby in large numbers now, just wait until they have to pass some sort of test to play the game. You will only hear crickets chirping and the doors closing.

 

The best any of us can do is to try to set a good example with our own caches and encourage others to follow that example or to improve upon it.

[+TriciaG]

I think that most people wouldn't see the value of a compulsory class. Diving? Heck, yeah - sign me up, because I don't want to die! But hunting for plastic containers in the woods? Not so much.

 

My husband griped plenty loud when I got the premium membership. Had we had to take a class, we'd never have gotten into the activity - both because of the money, but also because he's an introvert and hates unknown group settings like a class or conference.

 

I wouldn't mind a test, qualifications, or class for hiding caches, though.

Edited October 1, 2013 by TriciaG

[+u1bd2005]

that were made of "volunteers": people don't respect what you offer them until they have to pay for it.

 

I have to completely disagree here, I've worked in the retail sector as both volunteer and paid staff, I got much more respect as a volunteer, in my opinion people think that if you're paid for it then it's your job to take abuse and swearing.

 

I still get a lot of respect 99% of the time in paid work too, and I love my job because of the politeness of most customers, but as a volunteer I always received more respect than I have in any other job.

 

The "average" cache is a micro, the "average" walking distance is 10 M from your car

 

So, use PQ's filter out the micro's, and don't take your car. It's what I do most of the time, I can enjoy a few hours walk and look for a couple of slightly larger caches on the way, there's still plenty of clip-lock's out there. And set up more larger caches yourself, help to try and change the micro trend in your area.

 

a starter's geocaching compulsory education course before allowing to search or place geocahes. Let me be immediately clear, this should not be free of charge and Groundspeak should and must make money here not just to grow the business in the right direction, but most of all to assure that certified trainers know exactly what they are and should be teaching.[/font]

 

Isn't one of the main benefits of geocaching the fact that it gets people up off their sofa's, off their consoles and enjoying the great outdoors, we should be encouraging as many people as possible to join geocaching, not limiting it by making people take a starters course, let alone a paid one.

 

Most of us would have started as a free member at some point, even if just for the first few searches, how many of us would have even bothered if we had to pay for a starters course to do so?

 

Note: obviously, it's clear I believe there should only be premium memberships. It's the non-premium members that most of all (I realize this is a generalization) spoil our hobby.[/size]

 

Another stereotypical view, I get enough stereotyping because I'm a 23 year old who wears hoodies, you need to realise that every group has its good and bad people in it, and you need to stop encouraging the stereotypes that are dragging the good people down.

 

I started off as a free member, I'm premium now. I never would have became premium from day 1 as there is no way I would know if it was something I'd enjoy.

[+niraD]

I think the analogy with diving just doesn't work. Sure, when life and limb are on the line (as with diving, skydiving, driving, or flying), mandatory training makes sense. But for geocaching? Do we have mandatory training for hiking? for photography? for genealogy? for gardening? for home cooking? Geocaching seems a lot more like these pursuits than like diving.

 

The "average" cache is a micro, the "average" walking distance is 10 M from your car

So, use PQ's filter out the micro's, and don't take your car. It's what I do most of the time, I can enjoy a few hours walk and look for a couple of slightly larger caches on the way, there's still plenty of clip-lock's out there. And set up more larger caches yourself, help to try and change the micro trend in your area.

Yep. As Keystone has pointed out, even if the caches that are interesting to him are now a smaller fraction of the total number of caches, the number of caches that are interesting to him has increased, simply because the number of all types of caches has increased.

 

I started off as a free member, I'm premium now. I never would have became premium from day 1 as there is no way I would know if it was something I'd enjoy.

Same here. And the person who introduced me to geocaching was a basic (free) member, so I wouldn't have become a geocacher, and none of the other people he introduced to geocaching would have become geocachers.

[+SirDonB]

But Groundspeak has no ability to enforce a "compulsory education course" before allowing people to search for geocaches. Trying to enforce such a thing would just drive people to other listing sites, and that's why I think it's a bonehead (i.e., stupid, clumsy) idea.

 

And how do you figure that? Groundspeak owns the geocaching.com site and therefore, can enforce what ever they see fit before allowing people to do what ever on their site. While it may drive a number away at first, a good bit of those who left, will come back when the quality returns. If Groundspeak so desired to do so, they could require that people take a test or education course before finding or hiding caches.

 

If anything I think there needs to be a limit put on how many caches an account can own, either ones they hid themselves or adopted. Say you can own 75 but need to find at least 100-125 before you can start listing hidden caches on your account. There will still be ways around this, but it will be a bit more difficult and require a bit more work to get around.

 

being allowed to own an unlimited amount of caches is nuts and is asking for bad cache owners. you can hid 1000 caches, but if you can not maintain them you should not be allowed to own them. I also think there should be a requirement of one OM log every 3 months, granted no way to ensure the CO is actually going to check on their cache, but at least you know the CO is still logging on and can still be contacted. nothing worse than emailing a CO to get no reply then look at their profile to see they have not logged on in a year or more.

[+niraD]

If Groundspeak so desired to do so, they could require that people take a test or education course before finding or hiding caches.

Groundspeak cannot require a test or education course before finding caches. All they can do is require a test or education course before viewing listings on the geocaching.com site. That isn't the same thing at all.

 

Groundspeak cannot require a test or education course before hiding caches. All they can do is require a test or education course before listing caches on the geocaching.com site. That isn't the same thing either.

 

But more to the point, if you're a newbie who has heard about geocaching, and you have a choice between a free site with a few cache listings, and a paid site that requires a paid education course (per the OP), then which are you going to try when you explore this new hobby?

 

And if you're introducing newbies to geocaching, and have a choice between directing them to a free site with a few cache listings, and directing them to a paid site that requires a paid education course (per the OP), then which are you going to direct them to?

 

And if you manage a park system that requires caches to be listed on geocaching.com (because it provides a system of experienced volunteer reviewers, and because free memberships are available), and then geocaching.com starts requiring paid memberships and/or paid education courses, what do you do? Do you continue to promote a site that no longer offers free memberships? Do you try to find another site that provides a review system that sufficiently addresses your concerns? Or do you ban geocaching in your park system?

[+tozainamboku]

Maybe we need professional geocaching. Perhaps you pay for each cache you find and perhaps the hiders get paid base on finds or favorite points. People who hide better caches will find these caches more in demand and so the incentive will be to place better hides. This certainly makes sense.

 

I doubt that professional geocaching will catch on beyond a few diehard cachers. My guess is you will always have an amateur game open to all for no cost. Because this simple game is internet based and has broad appeal to people of all ages and abilities, many hides will be simply for others to find and not have the qualities you are looking for. But you can ignore the amateur caches and pay to find what you like.

[+SirDonB]

If Groundspeak so desired to do so, they could require that people take a test or education course before finding or hiding caches.

Groundspeak cannot require a test or education course before finding caches. All they can do is require a test or education course before viewing listings on the geocaching.com site. That isn't the same thing at all.

 

Groundspeak cannot require a test or education course before hiding caches. All they can do is require a test or education course before listing caches on the geocaching.com site. That isn't the same thing either.

 

How is it not the same thing as far as this site goes? you want to find a cache, you need access to the listing, you want to hide a cache, you need access to that part of the site. Groundspeak if so desired could implement a required course.

 

True though, I could go hide containers with logs all day long, not log them here, and give the locations to my friends or whom ever I wanted to to go out and find. However when we are talking about this site in particular, they are so close that they might as well be the same. With out the listings on this site, you can not geocache (other sites do exist, but are not worth the time, to me).

 

So it goes like this...

Groundspeak implements an education program

newbie joins with free account

newbie must pass test to view location information

newbie takes and passes test

newbie is better equipped to go out and find caches

 

OR

 

Groundspeak implements an education program

newbie joins with free account

newbie must pass test to view location information

newbie leaves for site geoX that does not have the test

newbie gets fed up with site geoX and comes back to take the test

 

It could go either way. As much as I might support the idea, I am not sure about paid end of it... I personally do not enjoy paying for the premium membership as it is, but I do so anyway. I know when I joined 2 years ago, I would have benefited from some kind of educational course to aid me in learning some of the tricks to finding a cache, getting a better idea what to be looking for, etc. Same with trackables, it would help for some better education there as well, and maybe less trackables would end up missing or not logged for months or years at a time.

 

So since it is unlikely that Groundspeak would implement such a program anyway, why dont we take matters into our own hands and create courses that we can give for free that are geared to newbies with the introductory/basic info we think would be of the most benefit.

[+TriciaG]

Or

 

Groundspeak implements an education program

newbie joins with free account

newbie must pass test to view location information

newbie leaves for site geoX that does not have the test

a gazillion newbies are now on site geoX

site geoX now has more users and caches listed than GS

 

So since it is unlikely that Groundspeak would implement such a program anyway, why dont we take matters into our own hands and create courses that we can give for free that are geared to newbies with the introductory/basic info we think would be of the most benefit.

That sounds like the best solution to me - free, voluntary courses, or even nominal-fee, voluntary courses.

[+SirDonB]

IF a small fee were to be charged, then it would only be enough to cover the cost of renting the facility, materials, ect. No pay for the teacher(s). In fact you may be able to get a classroom from places like your local library or the YMCA for little to no cost.

 

Something to look into.

[+SirDonB]

Since we are on the subject of education, Groundspeak's rules for hiding a cache say:

Fundamental Placement Guidelines

All local laws and documented land management policies apply.

You assure us that you have the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property.

Geocaches are never buried, neither partially nor completely.

Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

Wildlife and the natural environment are not harmed in the pursuit of geocaching.

Geocaches are not placed in restricted, prohibited or otherwise inappropriate locations.

Physical elements of different geocaches should be at least 0.10 miles (528 ft or 161 m) apart.

Geocaches are allowed in space, on other planets and in spacecraft.

 

Other Placement Considerations

Select an appropriate location and container.

Label your geocache.

 

quote taken from http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

The 2nd requirement of permission has made me wonder about most of the caches out there. For example, a lamppost cache in Walmart's parking lot...

 

It is only my opinion, but I highly doubt that the hider had gone through the process of finding out who owns the property the parking lot was built on, talking to the land owner about the cache placement, then placing the cache. I could be wrong and I hope I am.

 

again, it is of my opinion that there is no truly public land, all land is owned or managed by some person or organization. There may be a few rare exceptions to that, but for the most part, "public land" is owned by someone who is kind enough to allow others access for a designated purpose. Do not assume that just because you can enter and park in walmart's parking lot that is "public land" and you are free to place what ever you want on it. Same goes for guardrails and street signs.

 

I am willing to bet that the majority of caches in places like these are not there with properly granted permission, but with assumed permission from the mindset that says "well I shop at walmart all the time and there is no problems with me parking here, let me place a cache in this lamppost because it is on "public land"."

 

My point is that this thinking is wrong because someone owns the location that you want to place your cache. Take the time to do the research to see who the land owner is and obtain proper permission. Then say in your listing that it was placed with permission from "person X" or "company xyz."