I had to report a Needs Archive

[+Rabid_Dingo]

So on 9/8/2013 my wife and I hit the Colorado plains to get a piece of GeoArt under our belt.

GC2N5D1 was the start of the art and we started on the southern most end. But by the time we made

it to GC2N5E7 we thought we were crusin' but this was the first possible DNF. Yup, we were being

honest and logging the finds versus those we didn't find.

 

Just as we were giving up, this guy rides up on a 4-wheel and asks if this (he was holding a pill bottle) was

what we were looking for?

 

We assumed it was the CO replacing the missing cache, but we were quickly mistaken. It was the property owner!!!

He was angry beyond words. Take a look at my needs archive log, I was dumbstruck. I honestly tried to convert

him to Geocaching, and explaned the game. He did not care one bit...My wife, 13Pinky, tried her best to calm

the situation but his sailor mouth only alienated her as well...

 

It got to the point that I exclaimed that would forgo the efforts I would put in to reporting the cache as "on private

property" and "good luck with the 'millions of cachers' that would descend onto his property"

 

Being the honest person I am, I reported the NA log and killed the rest of my caching day. My wife was equally unmotivated

to continue.

 

But here I am checking the map and I find a "Found it!" log on the cache knowing full well that the cache was not in place

and the cache had been confiscated...

 

Do I just log a find knowing I saw it in the private property owner's hand as he berated me to complete my Geo Art?

WTF, about he next log as a Found it knowing full well there was no cache to log? I suspect it was someone just completing the

GeoArt/power trail and logging with a drive-by...Unless someone took it upon themselves to replace, yet again, the missing cache

that the property owner picked up.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Rabid_Dingo

[+whh0]

Whether you log a find or not is up to you and your conscience! This sort of thing happens a lot mainly by those chasing numbers at all costs. We found a cache container in bits, no log, so we cleared up the mess and let the CO know and they disabled the cache until they could get out to fix it. A day later "found it" log. If that is how people want to play the game then so be it, it's not the way we play but each to their own!

[+welch]

Do I just log a find knowing I saw it in the private property owner's hand as he berated me to complete my Geo Art?

""" about he next log as a Found it knowing full well there was no cache to log? I suspect it was someone just completing the

GeoArt/power trail and logging with a drive-by...Unless someone took it upon themselves to replace, yet again, the missing cache

that the property owner picked up.

No, you did the right thing in not 'finding' a cache you did not actually sign the log of.

I thought at first maybe the other person was just copy and pasting the same log and not actually reading the cache page. Many of the log are the same, or start out the same. However, on GC2ND3T and some others there is a different c&p log that says they replaced a cache they knew was missing? Again possibly without having seen your log about the current issue.

[+OZ2CPU]

your NA log should explain clearly the was taken away by you,

due to a demand from land owner.

 

it is CO's job to repport logs he belive is bogus,

he can also delete bogus logs,

people should plain fair = more fun for all,

but you are in your right to email the CO and telling him you know for sure that log is a bogus log,

if there is not a little bit check and controll and possibly log delete, too many will lie and cheat

and this way ruin the game for us all in the long run.

 

another thing :

if you ever get into confrontations with a mugler who is not happy,

ALWAYS smile, be friendly, and just say yes to all they want and all they say,

this way they end up not having any reason to be angry and the conversation ends very easy and fast,

and you can cary on happy too.

Edited September 12, 2013 by OZ2CPU

[+St.Matthew]

I think what is more shocking, to me at least, is the number of instances I have read about large numbers of caches, such as geo art or power trails, being on someone else's property without permission.

[+MartyBartfast]

You: I wouldn't log a find, perhaps if you persuaded the landowner to give you the cache so you could take it away that might be a find.

 

The other finder: It's up to the cache owner to police the logs, so if you feel something needs to be done Email them about it and it's their call. HOWEVER consider the log entry from the person who logged a find after you - they say "Came down from BC & couldn't leave Colorado with getting this cross", and other logs they posted in that area state they were on a camping trip; so it's entirely possible that they found a lot of caches while camping and logged them when they got home, either just remembering the date wrong, or logging them all with the date they did the online log rather than the date they found it. The only way to prove this one way or another is to look at the cache log - ahhhh that's in the hands of an irate landowner so I don't expect anyone's going to go ask him for a look. Personally I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt before coming down on them.

[+Walts Hunting]

I looked at the map of that series and it appears they are at intersections on public property.

 

Also it is fairly common when doing power trails to carry a supply of film cannisters and replace missing ones. They might have thrown down a replacement.

 

It is also not that uncommon to claim all,caches in a power trail even if missing. There are some people who think if they get to the location they get a smiley.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Walts Hunting

[Pup Patrol]

So on 9/8/2013 my wife and I hit the Colorado plains to get a piece of GeoArt under our belt.

GC2N5D1 was the start of the art and we started on the southern most end. But by the time we made

it to GC2N5E7 we thought we were crusin' but this was the first possible DNF. Yup, we were being

honest and logging the finds versus those we didn't find.

 

Just as we were giving up, this guy rides up on a 4-wheel and asks if this (he was holding a pill bottle) was

what we were looking for?

 

We assumed it was the CO replacing the missing cache, but we were quickly mistaken. It was the property owner!!!

He was angry beyond words. Take a look at my needs archive log, I was dumbstruck. I honestly tried to convert

him to Geocaching, and explaned the game. He did not care one bit...My wife, 13Pinky, tried her best to calm

the situation but his sailor mouth only alienated her as well...

 

It got to the point that I exclaimed that would forgo the efforts I would put in to reporting the cache as "on private

property" and "good luck with the 'millions of cachers' that would descend onto his property"

 

Being the honest person I am, I reported the NA log and killed the rest of my caching day. My wife was equally unmotivated

to continue.

 

But here I am checking the map and I find a "Found it!" log on the cache knowing full well that the cache was not in place

and the cache had been confiscated...

 

Do I just log a find knowing I saw it in the private property owner's hand as he berated me to complete my Geo Art?

WTF, about he next log as a Found it knowing full well there was no cache to log? I suspect it was someone just completing the

GeoArt/power trail and logging with a drive-by...Unless someone took it upon themselves to replace, yet again, the missing cache

that the property owner picked up.

 

Whether you log it as "found" or not is up to you.

 

Others have logged "found it" on caches they never even touched, so don't start worrying about other people. Although they are misleading other cachers with their fake "found it" logs, this doesn't seem to bother them as they rack up numbers.

 

These folks load up their devices and I highly doubt they even saw the NA.

 

Taking a look at that series, a lot of them have "needs maintenance" logs not addressed by the cache owner. That is not surprising, as the cache owner's profile lets you know that replacing logs and containers is okay by him.

 

Replace log/container as needed - see GCRM.gocacher.com for more info

 

These types of hides encourage lazy cache owners and throwdowns by "finders".

 

Zooming in on the map, it looks like this one is not on the roadside, but well off the road.

 

It's good that you posted the Needs Archived. That lets the Reviewer know that there is a problem with at least one of these caches.

 

Don't waste time trying to convert angry landowners. Just smile, be polite and get out of the situation, get to a computer and log the "Needs Archived" as quickly as possible.

 

 

B.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Pup Patrol

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Whether you log a find or not is up to you and your conscience! This sort of thing happens a lot mainly by those chasing numbers at all costs. We found a cache container in bits, no log, so we cleared up the mess and let the CO know and they disabled the cache until they could get out to fix it. A day later "found it" log. If that is how people want to play the game then so be it, it's not the way we play but each to their own!

 

Sorry, there are just some aspects of geocaching where "let people play the game they want" should not apply and this is one of them. In this case, the cache was on someones private property and the property own did not want the cache there, or people searching for a cache on their property. The "found it" log after the Needs Archive implies that the cache is still there (and there might be a throwdown cache someone placed there) leading to more people searching for it, and generally would lead to an even more irate land manager than the OP encountered. When it comes to having one more cache to find (must increase find count!) and keeping the peace with land manager, the latter should win every single time.

 

 

[+terrkan78]

What I find odd is the NA was logged on September 8th. It's now the 12th and the cache hasn't been disabled yet. I'd have thought that an NA log for angry landowner reasons would have gotten a more immediate response.

 

Perhaps contact is taking place privately, but I'd still expect the cache to be disabled while things are being sorted out. Odd.

[+L0ne.R]

I think what is more shocking, to me at least, is the number of instances I have read about large numbers of caches, such as geo art or power trails, being on someone else's property without permission.

 

Bingo. Whether the OP logged a found or not seems almost meaningless compared to the irate homeowner and awful confrontation that a finder faced because someone had to place a pill bottle exactly there in order to make a Jesus cross (seems ironic). It's a black-eye to this past time. Also, I noticed a GCRM truck on the cache page GC2N5D1(sigh).

[+L0ne.R]

(and there might be a throwdown cache someone placed there)

 

 

As sanctioned by the PT owner:

 

GCRM Replace log/container as needed - see GCRM.gocacher.com for more info

 

(addendum: I see that Pup Patrol already mentioned the GCRM. Perhaps the whole PT needs to be brought to the attention of the reviewer)

Edited September 12, 2013 by L0ne R

[+J Grouchy]

I think what is more shocking, to me at least, is the number of instances I have read about large numbers of caches, such as geo art or power trails, being on someone else's property without permission.

 

Bingo. Whether the OP logged a found or not seems almost meaningless compared to the irate homeowner and awful confrontation that a finder faced because someone had to place a pill bottle exactly there in order to make a Jesus cross (seems ironic). It's a black-eye to this past time. Also, I noticed a GCRM truck on the cache page GC2N5D1(sigh).

 

All of the ones I've seen were '?' caches so the smilies could be in any configuration while the actual caches were placed elsewhere.

 

Edited September 12, 2013 by J Grouchy

[+L0ne.R]

I think what is more shocking, to me at least, is the number of instances I have read about large numbers of caches, such as geo art or power trails, being on someone else's property without permission.

 

Bingo. Whether the OP logged a found or not seems almost meaningless compared to the irate homeowner and awful confrontation that a finder faced because someone had to place a pill bottle exactly there in order to make a Jesus cross (seems ironic). It's a black-eye to this past time. Also, I noticed a GCRM truck on the cache page GC2N5D1(sigh).

 

All of the ones I've seen were '?' caches so the smilies could be in any configuration while the actual caches were placed elsewhere.

 

 

This PT is made up of traditionals along a roadway.

 

[+kunarion]

Has this cache been an issue for two years?

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

I think what is more shocking, to me at least, is the number of instances I have read about large numbers of caches, such as geo art or power trails, being on someone else's property without permission.

 

Bingo. Whether the OP logged a found or not seems almost meaningless compared to the irate homeowner and awful confrontation that a finder faced because someone had to place a pill bottle exactly there in order to make a Jesus cross (seems ironic). It's a black-eye to this past time. Also, I noticed a GCRM truck on the cache page GC2N5D1(sigh).

 

All of the ones I've seen were '?' caches so the smilies could be in any configuration while the actual caches were placed elsewhere.

 

 

This PT is made up of traditionals along a roadway.

 

 

Could the series of caches be viewed as promoting an agenda? Not saying it does...just asking.

[7rxc]

I like the cache description comment "Friendly hard working people that wave when you pass them on the road."

 

Perhaps the CO mistook them flipping the bird at him.

 

Anyway, to be fair to all the participants including the guy on the quad.

 

Did he prove ownership or just claim ownership? Lots of people 'claim' property they don't own or control.

 

Everything looks as though the caches are on the road right of way, this one mentions 'pole base' but is unclear about whether that is a utility pole or a fence post. Either would likely require permission, but chances of getting utilities to give permission for their poles is slight in most places since most ban attachments for safety reasons and line people enforce it by removal for the same reasons.

 

Another aspect is how the roads are placed. Is that a oounty right of way (owned by county) or built along an easement on land owned by private concerns. That happens in many places, but many spots it's really the county, state or even federal ownership depending on the road. I'd assume the reviewer trusted it was on public land and might or might not be correct at any given location.

 

A landowner has the right to have trespassing caches removed, and GC will do so to placate an irritated nearby resident as well. However we don't have any proof of who the complainer was, perhaps the OP could address that.

Still the NA was probably correct in drawing it to the attention of a reviewer. They may have information supporting the CO's placement legality, so it may come back to knowing who was 'irate' and how to deal with that. Cachers should not have to deal with that more than a few times. Since it seems to have happened previously as mentioned, that is another big question to answer, why so long and what happened the first time?

 

Was the problem caused by people hiding caches in 'better' spots causing migration onto private property? That happens in many spots, migration to other spots in general that is... to specific to trespassing.

 

The reviewer should review the maintenance plan anyway, since the chap asks others to 'help out' if they can't find one.

 

Just a few things to consider.

Doug 7rxc

[4wheelin_fool]

Has this cache been an issue for two years?

 

Seems to be. It may not be on his actual property, but if the traffic is pissing him off that much, it needs to be removed. If not, eventually he will get the initiative to look on the map and find more of them. This is how a cache maggot is born.

 

This log is better, though

 

"Found It! When we arrived, an angry individual was holding the film can, demanding 'Is this what you want!' He pointed out that the cache was inside his kitchen, and 5000 strangers had been there over the past six years. He then killed my wife and kids and placed their heads on pikes by the road as a warning, next to all the others. I managed to slip the ropes and run, and was lucky to escape. I hid in the forest for several days, then hitched a ride with a trucker. I then went back and replaced the container with a signed log. This cache completes the geo trail, a wonderful drawing of Honey Boo-Boo among the farm lands. Thanks!"

[+DanOCan]

How would I handle this?

 

- I'd likely log the cache as Found. It was there, in the hands of an angry landowner

- I'd post the Needs Archived log explaining the situation

- I'd never look back

[+dprovan]

This is one of those cases where you should try to recognize that while the irate local is yelling at you, his beef is with the CO, so you should try to become the local's advocate, assuring him that you'll do everything you can to make sure this never happens again. Filing the NA is one important thing you can do for him, as you explained.

 

One thing that might help is to offer to take the offending cache and remove it from the area. That would be a supportive act. Of course, it's just a coincidence that that would put you in a position to sign the log so you can claim the find. But don't even think about putting the cache back!

 

If you don't sign the log, don't claim the find. It's not big deal anyway.

 

Although you were too upset to continue -- and I don't blame you -- I'd like to mention that the dispassionate, intellectual decision would also be to stop looking for more caches in the series. After all, the series has a demonstrable problem, and you might run into more problems later.

 

Don't worry about the find you doubt. It's not worth it, and it's none of your business.

[4wheelin_fool]

I think what is more shocking, to me at least, is the number of instances I have read about large numbers of caches, such as geo art or power trails, being on someone else's property without permission.

 

Bingo. Whether the OP logged a found or not seems almost meaningless compared to the irate homeowner and awful confrontation that a finder faced because someone had to place a pill bottle exactly there in order to make a Jesus cross (seems ironic). It's a black-eye to this past time. Also, I noticed a GCRM truck on the cache page GC2N5D1(sigh).

 

All of the ones I've seen were '?' caches so the smilies could be in any configuration while the actual caches were placed elsewhere.

 

 

This PT is made up of traditionals along a roadway.

 

 

Could the series of caches be viewed as promoting an agenda? Not saying it does...just asking.

 

Yes the cacher is to play the role of Jesus, while the landowner imitates Ponitius Pilate.

 

I think GC4N0QB is more agenda like, however..

[+MountainWoods]

As to the Found It that was posted for the day after the cache was obviously confiscated:

1. Perhaps someone legitimately found it earlier, but logged the wrong date.
   
2. Perhaps your wife's calming words made him stop and think and go look up geocaching, register, and then log the cache himself the next day. (Don't we wish.)
   
3. If neither of the above, it was probably an armchair cacher. Like others have said in other threads, they only deceive themselves.
   

[+Harry Dolphin]

WTF, about he next log as a Found it knowing full well there was no cache to log?

 

There are many cachers who do not use the guidelines: Find cache. Sign Log. Log on-line.

They seems to live in a world of their own. Entitlement. Whatever works for them to get a find. Especially obvious with many 'large number of finds' cachers. "Didn't find it, but I'm not going to log a DNF!" Toss a throw down! Or claim a find on a missing cache.

Some power trails encourage throw downs. "Lots of spare film pots at the start. Takes some to throw down in case you cannot find the cache." It seems the COS do not want to have to do maintenance.

Here's an interesting one I've been following since my DNF in 2009. Put Me in Coach

A Tupperware container (I think it was under the transformer). Ours was the four DNFs. Fourth DNF returned a year later and replaced it with a switch plate on a nearby building. Umm... That's not even close for coords nor caches description! Some people will do anything to up their numbers, and avoid a DNF. (Though they actually did post a DNF...)

But, my real question here is: Why did you feel the need to use an obscenity (not once, but twice)???? This is a family friendly site. Leave you anger at home, and try to be nice.

Definitely NA the cache in question. But be nice here!

[+The_Incredibles_]

I think you're jumping to conclusions. Alot of people find caches then log them later. Maybe they logged with the wrong date?

[+ArtieD]

If you signed the log, log the find. If not, don't. Don't sweat it, though...just list the NA and move on.

[+Shmitty]

 

Did he prove ownership or just claim ownership? Lots of people 'claim' property they don't own or control.

 

 

I had this very thing happen while caching once. Guy pulls up and asks what we're doing. We explained it to him and explained that we had the landowner's permission. He told us that the landowner we mentioned didn't own the land and told us to get the cache out of the area. We told him that we'd mention it to the CO (who wasn't the same as the landowner). His response was to ask us where it was so that he could get it out. We reiterated our intentions and he pulled off in a huff. Turns out there was some land dispute going on over the area.

[+Don_J]

 

Did he prove ownership or just claim ownership? Lots of people 'claim' property they don't own or control.

 

 

I had this very thing happen while caching once. Guy pulls up and asks what we're doing. We explained it to him and explained that we had the landowner's permission. He told us that the landowner we mentioned didn't own the land and told us to get the cache out of the area. We told him that we'd mention it to the CO (who wasn't the same as the landowner). His response was to ask us where it was so that he could get it out. We reiterated our intentions and he pulled off in a huff. Turns out there was some land dispute going on over the area.

 

If someone claims to be the landowner and demands that I take the cache with me, I'm taking the cache with me. I'm not going to demand that he show me a deed.

 

In this case the NA was posted and it's four days later with no apparent response from the reviewer. In my area, the cache would have been archived within hours. It can always be unarchived later if the situation gets resolved.

[+SwineFlew]

I remember trying to find a cache at the CO's place. Yes, where the CO lives at and its on his property. The neighbor just across the street just hates it there and let me know that. What scare me the most was that he comes up to me a little too fast with a square shoulders and with his hands in his oversize pockets that whole time. I got the hell out of there!!!

 

I took my concern to the reviewer and it got archived. I think the CO places the cache there just to piss off the neighbor. I dont think we geocachers should be caught into those disputes. Many cachers that found it said something about the neighbor harassing them.

[+SwineFlew]

 

Did he prove ownership or just claim ownership? Lots of people 'claim' property they don't own or control.

 

 

I had this very thing happen while caching once. Guy pulls up and asks what we're doing. We explained it to him and explained that we had the landowner's permission. He told us that the landowner we mentioned didn't own the land and told us to get the cache out of the area. We told him that we'd mention it to the CO (who wasn't the same as the landowner). His response was to ask us where it was so that he could get it out. We reiterated our intentions and he pulled off in a huff. Turns out there was some land dispute going on over the area.

 

If someone claims to be the landowner and demands that I take the cache with me, I'm taking the cache with me. I'm not going to demand that he show me a deed.

In this case the NA was posted and it's four days later with no apparent response from the reviewer. In my area, the cache would have been archived within hours. It can always be unarchived later if the situation gets resolved.

Same here... my reviewer will archived it quickly.

[+tallglenn]

I had an aggressive land owner approach me once. I asked innocently "Do you cut all this grass?" They stammered and admitted "No, the county does". It was obvious then that they were just being a jerk. Threatened to call the sheriff, too. I said "Go ahead" as I got into my car. What are they going to report, that some fat nerd got real close to their fence? Sigh...

[+popokiiti]

We were approached by an angry neighbour who lived kitty-corner to where we were searching for a nano in ivy. (Silly us!) He wondered if it were a drug drop, we explained the game, and he seemed mollified. We never did find that one, even though we made one more half-hearted effort.

Have to say, before we got into geocaching, I wondered what cars were doing parked outside our house, the occupants reading a sheet of paper. There had been issues on our country street of break and enter, so I used to just look at the folk parked there. It turned out there was a cache close by, and our little road is the best place to park.

I can understand folk being protective, but not those folk with crappy attitudes - no need for that behaviour!!

[Clan Riffster]

"There is no snooze button on a cat that wants breakfast."

Off topic, I know, but I had to throw this out there.

Love that signature line!

[+Rabid_Dingo]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I feel better overall. I know I overreacted to the land owner but his

aggression got to me. There was a new-looking fence and he claimed to have had the land surveyed and his

property lines defined. He may have had this encounter before and had the "right" response in the ready.

The cache I believe was placed at the base of a pole that had a Buried Gas line warning sign on it.

 

I just have to find another piece of GeoArt to aim for.

[+Walts Hunting]

I just recalled a confirmed case of throw downs that actually helped me. A friend and I were doing a power trail on our bikes outside of Yuma westbound along a frontage road. We had two that we didn't find and were sure were gone. We saw a car headed eastbound on the road obviously caching and stopped and talked. They were on vacation from Germany and doing this trail on their way east. After a few minutes chatting we headed our separate ways.

 

When it was time to turn around I told Tom let's go check the two we didn't find. Sure enough there were bright shiny new bison tubes hanging in plain sight so we opened them up and underneath the couples signature signed our names and changed the log to found.

 

At least it wasn't a film canister which the originals were it was an upgrade. They left quality throw downs or hang ups might be more appropriate.

 

I don't do it being a little (well a lot) rigid about standards but if others to it fine.

[+Traditional Bill]

I think what is more shocking, to me at least, is the number of instances I have read about large numbers of caches, such as geo art or power trails, being on someone else's property without permission.

 

Bingo. Whether the OP logged a found or not seems almost meaningless compared to the irate homeowner and awful confrontation that a finder faced because someone had to place a pill bottle exactly there in order to make a Jesus cross (seems ironic). It's a black-eye to this past time. Also, I noticed a GCRM truck on the cache page GC2N5D1(sigh).

 

All of the ones I've seen were '?' caches so the smilies could be in any configuration while the actual caches were placed elsewhere.

 

 

This PT is made up of traditionals along a roadway.

 

 

Could the series of caches be viewed as promoting an agenda? Not saying it does...just asking.

 

Yes the cacher is to play the role of Jesus, while the landowner imitates Ponitius Pilate.

 

I think GC4N0QB is more agenda like, however..

 

Yes yes yes! I agree with you, fool. I saw that cache publish as well as a couple others that included some form of "religious rhetoric". It's sad, as I've heard stories of caches getting denied because the page may tell you to "stop at a memorial and honor our fallen veterans". How is that an agenda, yet a giant cross of caches isn't?

 

In my opinion, power trails defeat the purpose of geocaching. I've done a few and was not impressed by the areas I was brought to, nor the lame hides. Why is it that people NEED numbers? I don't understand that concept at all.