Geocaching in Wilderness

[bremilldrum]

Hello All,

 

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school and I am writing a piece about geocaching in wilderness. Do you have an opinion on it? Is it ok or not ok? I would like to speak to anyone who has done geocaching in Montana of course, but especially in the Missoula area. If that's you, perhaps we could sit down for coffee and a chat. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Breana Milldrum

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I've cached about everywhere in the U.S. including Montana and some around Missoula.

My absolute favorite places are remote wilderness areas.....I use a pick up truck but it's not 4WD so I'm limited how far I can go on dirt roads,( we like hiking but don't do overnight backpacking) etc. One of my favorite geocaching jaunts was a drive between Clarkston, WA through Idaho on U.S. 12 to Missoula. I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite state for remote caching but it could well be Utah followed by New Mexico.

[+uxorious]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

[bremilldrum]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

 

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas. the rattlesnake for example, are there any cache's in there?

[bremilldrum]

I've cached about everywhere in the U.S. including Montana and some around Missoula.

My absolute favorite places are remote wilderness areas.....I use a pick up truck but it's not 4WD so I'm limited how far I can go on dirt roads,( we like hiking but don't do overnight backpacking) etc. One of my favorite geocaching jaunts was a drive between Clarkston, WA through Idaho on U.S. 12 to Missoula. I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite state for remote caching but it could well be Utah followed by New Mexico.

 

Do you believe that geocaching in a low impact activity in wilderness? In other words, should there be limitations on where one can geocache?

[+Fridge01]

If the land manager say No then there is no geocaching there. They say No for a variety of different reasons and it's not productive to argue with them. Move on the a place where geocaching is welcome.

 

Some of the best geocaching is in wilderness areas that allow it. Geocachers have much less impact on the area than hunters, campers, partyers, and in some cases livestock. And it's a good way to bring more people to the nice area if that is desired. But there are always a few people who hide caches in unwise places, trample vegetation, and/or leave Geotrash behind.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

To my knowledge, designated Wilderness Areas (BLM managed) are off-limits to caching... just as they are to wheeled and motorized vehicles.

 

Placing something (a physical geocache) is generally not allowed. Keep in mind, there are exceptions to everything, though.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Gitchee-Gummee

[+Viajero Perdido]

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school

This says so much...

[Pup Patrol]

duplicate thread:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=315420

 

 

B.

[+cerberus1]

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school and I am writing a piece about geocaching in wilderness. Do you have an opinion on it? Is it ok or not ok?

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas.

Do you believe that geocaching in a low impact activity in wilderness? In other words, should there be limitations on where one can geocache?

You joined yesterday, with the idea of "writing a piece" on the effects of geocaching and designated wilderness areas?

What's the agenda?

[+The Leprechauns]

Hello All,

 

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school and I am writing a piece about geocaching in wilderness. Do you have an opinion on it? Is it ok or not ok? I would like to speak to anyone who has done geocaching in Montana of course, but especially in the Missoula area. If that's you, perhaps we could sit down for coffee and a chat. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Breana Milldrum

If you care about natural appearances and the impact of humans, you could start by getting the University to remove the giant M from the side of the mountain overlooking Missoula. It's unsightly. I like looking at pristine mountains, not giant "art." Geocaches don't have nearly as much impact as something like that.

 

 

I've cached about everywhere in the U.S. including Montana and some around Missoula.

My absolute favorite places are remote wilderness areas.....I use a pick up truck but it's not 4WD so I'm limited how far I can go on dirt roads,( we like hiking but don't do overnight backpacking) etc. One of my favorite geocaching jaunts was a drive between Clarkston, WA through Idaho on U.S. 12 to Missoula. I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite state for remote caching but it could well be Utah followed by New Mexico.

Last month I traveled from Seattle to Missoula specifically to do the fabulous drive down Route 12. I had planned a day of short hikes to geocaches along this route. Unfortunately the forest fires resulted in the closure of this route, forcing me to drive a different Route to Boise ID. Regardless, my GeoTourism visit pumped $225 into Missoula's economy.

[+nthacker66]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

 

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas. the rattlesnake for example, are there any cache's in there?

 

It all really depends - land managers have the final say in nature reserves and wilderness areas. Many land managers welcome caching as long as it is not in a ecologically sensitive area. In lmost all cases if something is remote enough, you arent going to get enough traffic around that area where it will matter.

 

High impact is a matter of how much traffic a cache generates - there is more of an impact on areas that have power trails, like the ET highway, or much of this geoart, than any wilderness area cache I have seen.

[+The_Incredibles_]

 

Do you believe that geocaching in a low impact activity in wilderness? In other words, should there be limitations on where one can geocache?

 

With a few exceptions, I see geocaching as a low impact activity. Geocaches have to be at least 161 meters apart which leaves a lot of untouched space. It's pretty common to see "geo-trails" leading off a main hiking trail, however these grow over when the cache is removed and certainly don't bother the wildlife. I think most people would rather follow a geo-trail than bushwack their way in, trampling plants. Sometimes you'll see someone hide a difficult cache and the area get messed up, but this is more the exception than the rule. If cachers in my area have concerns about the environmental impact of a cache, the CO will be told right away and they will typically improve the hint or put flagging up.

 

Most of our parks here allow geocaching and see the recreational value in it.

[+SwineFlew]

Hello All,

 

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school and I am writing a piece about geocaching in wilderness. Do you have an opinion on it? Is it ok or not ok? I would like to speak to anyone who has done geocaching in Montana of course, but especially in the Missoula area. If that's you, perhaps we could sit down for coffee and a chat. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Breana Milldrum

If you care about natural appearances and the impact of humans, you could start by getting the University to remove the giant M from the side of the mountain overlooking Missoula. It's unsightly. I like looking at pristine mountains, not giant "art." Geocaches don't have nearly as much impact as something like that.

 

 

 

How about the geoart over close to Rachel NV? I like looking at pristine landscape on Google Earth and I see an ugly head over there. Its pretty unsightly. Maybe someone can archived those caches that are making that ugly head. Geocaches does have that much impact.

Edited September 6, 2013 by SwineFlew

[jholly]

Hello All,

 

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school and I am writing a piece about geocaching in wilderness. Do you have an opinion on it? Is it ok or not ok? I would like to speak to anyone who has done geocaching in Montana of course, but especially in the Missoula area. If that's you, perhaps we could sit down for coffee and a chat. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Breana Milldrum

If you care about natural appearances and the impact of humans, you could start by getting the University to remove the giant M from the side of the mountain overlooking Missoula. It's unsightly. I like looking at pristine mountains, not giant "art." Geocaches don't have nearly as much impact as something like that.

 

 

 

How about the geoart over close to Rachel NV? I like looking at pristine landscape on Google Earth and I see an ugly head over there. Its pretty unsightly. Maybe someone can archived those caches that are making that ugly head. Geocaches does have that much impact.

Are you referring to the alien's or the Colonel's?

[+SwineFlew]

Hello All,

 

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school and I am writing a piece about geocaching in wilderness. Do you have an opinion on it? Is it ok or not ok? I would like to speak to anyone who has done geocaching in Montana of course, but especially in the Missoula area. If that's you, perhaps we could sit down for coffee and a chat. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Breana Milldrum

If you care about natural appearances and the impact of humans, you could start by getting the University to remove the giant M from the side of the mountain overlooking Missoula. It's unsightly. I like looking at pristine mountains, not giant "art." Geocaches don't have nearly as much impact as something like that.

 

 

 

How about the geoart over close to Rachel NV? I like looking at pristine landscape on Google Earth and I see an ugly head over there. Its pretty unsightly. Maybe someone can archived those caches that are making that ugly head. Geocaches does have that much impact.

Are you referring to the alien's or the Colonel's?

Alien's head. Go over on google earth and look. Its there. Cause by geocachers.

Edited September 6, 2013 by SwineFlew

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I've cached about everywhere in the U.S. including Montana and some around Missoula.

My absolute favorite places are remote wilderness areas.....I use a pick up truck but it's not 4WD so I'm limited how far I can go on dirt roads,( we like hiking but don't do overnight backpacking) etc. One of my favorite geocaching jaunts was a drive between Clarkston, WA through Idaho on U.S. 12 to Missoula. I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite state for remote caching but it could well be Utah followed by New Mexico.

 

Do you believe that geocaching in a low impact activity in wilderness? In other words, should there be limitations on where one can geocache?

 

It is my experience that the more remote the cache is located the less visits it gets.

I believe it is a very low impact activity in these areas and there should be no limitations on their placement.

There is an old saying in the game regarding environmental disturbance.....if you and a friend can throw a Frisbee there, you should be able to hide a cache there ( private property excepted).

[+BAMBOOZLE]

Hello All,

 

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school and I am writing a piece about geocaching in wilderness. Do you have an opinion on it? Is it ok or not ok? I would like to speak to anyone who has done geocaching in Montana of course, but especially in the Missoula area. If that's you, perhaps we could sit down for coffee and a chat. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Breana Milldrum

If you care about natural appearances and the impact of humans, you could start by getting the University to remove the giant M from the side of the mountain overlooking Missoula. It's unsightly. I like looking at pristine mountains, not giant "art." Geocaches don't have nearly as much impact as something like that.

 

 

I've cached about everywhere in the U.S. including Montana and some around Missoula.

My absolute favorite places are remote wilderness areas.....I use a pick up truck but it's not 4WD so I'm limited how far I can go on dirt roads,( we like hiking but don't do overnight backpacking) etc. One of my favorite geocaching jaunts was a drive between Clarkston, WA through Idaho on U.S. 12 to Missoula. I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite state for remote caching but it could well be Utah followed by New Mexico.

Last month I traveled from Seattle to Missoula specifically to do the fabulous drive down Route 12. I had planned a day of short hikes to geocaches along this route. Unfortunately the forest fires resulted in the closure of this route, forcing me to drive a different Route to Boise ID. Regardless, my GeoTourism visit pumped $225 into Missoula's economy.

 

I stayed in Missoula as well ( geotourism)....go back and do Hwy 12, in over 10 years of geocaching the U.S. it was our best day.....following the river through the mountains with short hikes over swinging bridges, etc. I had traveled it virtually with Google Earth but nothing prepares you for the actual beauty of that route.

[+briansnat]

The Wilderness Act of 1964 allows for grazing of animals, construction of power lines and associated roads, prospecting for minerals and mining. Other allowed uses include camping and horse travel (ever see the mess horses make of trails?). Compared to those geocaching is pretty benign. A cache in a wilderness area is likely to receive few visits a year, so the impact will be minimal to non existent.

 

That said, most designated wilderness areas do not allow geocaches, but it is up to the area supervisor. I understand that several have okayed geocaches. These days no new caches would knowingly be published in any nationally designated wilderness area without the express consent of the area supervisor. However there are probably hundreds of caches in wilderness areas, published either by accident (sometimes the borders are not evident on maps), or before we were sensitive to to the issues of placing caches in these areas. I'm sure in many, if not most cases, the land managers are aware of their existence and let them be because they don't believe they present a problem.

Edited September 7, 2013 by briansnat

[team tisri]

I found a brilliant geocache in a designated wilderness area. It was a virtual where you had to take a picture of yourself and the view from a particular point. I'd made many visits to the area before I went out to find it but enjoyed it very much. Next time I'm in the area I'll probably go back just to enjoy the hike and the view again. Last time I was there I took some pictures of a lizard that was enjoying the sun as much as I was.

[+tsunrisebey]

Hello All,

 

I am a graduate school at UM's Journalism school and I am writing a piece about geocaching in wilderness. Do you have an opinion on it? Is it ok or not ok? I would like to speak to anyone who has done geocaching in Montana of course, but especially in the Missoula area. If that's you, perhaps we could sit down for coffee and a chat. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Breana Milldrum

If you care about natural appearances and the impact of humans, you could start by getting the University to remove the giant M from the side of the mountain overlooking Missoula. It's unsightly. I like looking at pristine mountains, not giant "art." Geocaches don't have nearly as much impact as something like that.

 

 

I've cached about everywhere in the U.S. including Montana and some around Missoula.

My absolute favorite places are remote wilderness areas.....I use a pick up truck but it's not 4WD so I'm limited how far I can go on dirt roads,( we like hiking but don't do overnight backpacking) etc. One of my favorite geocaching jaunts was a drive between Clarkston, WA through Idaho on U.S. 12 to Missoula. I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite state for remote caching but it could well be Utah followed by New Mexico.

Last month I traveled from Seattle to Missoula specifically to do the fabulous drive down Route 12. I had planned a day of short hikes to geocaches along this route. Unfortunately the forest fires resulted in the closure of this route, forcing me to drive a different Route to Boise ID. Regardless, my GeoTourism visit pumped $225 into Missoula's economy.

 

Just an FYI, this is a Montana tradition in all towns. The "M" is a staple in Missoula as are all letters in each town as they represent history, memories and legacies. It may be unsightly to an outsider but not to those of us who understand the significance of the letters throughout the state. Besides, Mount Sentinel isn't exactly in the heart of wilderness Montana has plenty of mountain ranges to choose from if you insist on pristine and untouched. I also enjoy looking at the "M" when I'm watching the Griz play in WaGriz stadium I do thank you for coming to Montana and contributing to our economy! Let's hike the "M" the next time you come back!

 

Breana, you should contact Jennifer&Dean who are prevalent geocachers in the Missoula area (both placing and finding caches). I'm sure they would be happy to answer any questions. I'm out of Helena and am over your way watching my Griz on Saturdays.

 

tsun

[+farrtom]

I know caches are not allowed in national parks but I know on top of some prominent mountain peaks that are frequented by mountain climbers there is a log to sign, usually in an ammo can.

When I first started caching I remembered find one on top of a famous peak in a national park over 20 years ago.

I think it should be OK to cache in many wilderness areas as long as the land managers give permission on the location. What is the difference between a geocache container and the mountain climbers log books?

[bremilldrum]

That's a good question. My HYPOTHESIS would be that land managers didn't know about the log book, or perhaps rules were more lax 20 years ago. I know according to the practices of the USFS here in Montana, caches in wilderness are NOT allowed. However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness. My question again becomes, has anyone on this forum geocached in wilderness or could they lead me to anyone who has geocached in wilderness? I would prefer Montana cachers but anyone whose geocached in wilderness in the west would also be good to speak with.

[+nthacker66]

That's a good question. My HYPOTHESIS would be that land managers didn't know about the log book, or perhaps rules were more lax 20 years ago. I know according to the practices of the USFS here in Montana, caches in wilderness are NOT allowed. However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness. My question again becomes, has anyone on this forum geocached in wilderness or could they lead me to anyone who has geocached in wilderness? I would prefer Montana cachers but anyone whose geocached in wilderness in the west would also be good to speak with.

 

Why don't you define "wilderness" for us?

[+uxorious]

However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness.

 

If they are listing their cache on Geocaching.com, the reviewers usually know which Wilderness areas allow caching. If caches are not allowed in an area, and the reviewer knows it, they won't be published. If the reviewer for some reason wasn't aware, and did publish one, it would be archived as soon as the powers that be discover it.

 

Yes there are designated wilderness areas people cache in, because there are such areas that allow Geocaching. Maybe not in Montana, but certainty in some areas nationwide.

[bremilldrum]

That's a good question. My HYPOTHESIS would be that land managers didn't know about the log book, or perhaps rules were more lax 20 years ago. I know according to the practices of the USFS here in Montana, caches in wilderness are NOT allowed. However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness. My question again becomes, has anyone on this forum geocached in wilderness or could they lead me to anyone who has geocached in wilderness? I would prefer Montana cachers but anyone whose geocached in wilderness in the west would also be good to speak with.

 

Why don't you define "wilderness" for us?

 

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.

 

quoted from www.wilderness.net using the framework of 1964 wilderness act.

 

have you geocached in wilderness?

[+Fugads]

OK, I'll bite. I have found and really enjoy finding geocaches in wilderness areas. I can see why some would be hesitant to discuss this topic openly though. The reason being is that the geocaches in those wilderness areas may not have been officially permitted by the land managers and they are worried that if they call attention to these caches, they will get archived. One example I have, some friends of mine placed 3 geocaches in the White Mtn Wilderness area (Southern NM). The caches were published, but about a week later, the reviewer was made aware that geocaches are not allowed in this wilderness area and the caches were archived (see GC32KEE, GC32KDR and GC32KE3. The caches are deep in the Wilderness area, requiring a 10 mile (round trip) hike to reach. Despite being archived, the caches stayed up there until just last week when I hiked some wilderness trails and retrieved the caches for my friends. What an amazing hike I had and such a beautiful area. The caches were well hidden such that no one not looking for them would know they were there. If they had been allowed, they would definitely be earning "favorite points" because they were truly quality places.

 

There are a handful of other wilderness areas down here that have geocaches in them, and I've visited a lot of these. Again, they are wonderful trips and worthy geocaches (although they usually only see 1 or 2 geocacher visits a year, sometimes less). So my opinion would of course be to allow them to exist. My experience is that they do not pose any more significant impact to the wilderness areas than hikers, backpackers and hunters do already. What would be a land managers reason to not allow them? Some concern related to what they perceive geocaching to be? There are a lot of "junky" geocaches placed just about everywhere, from urban areas, to farmlands, to BLM lands. If land managers perceive geocaching to be just this I can see how they would not want it in their pristine wilderness areas. But as with hiking, hunting and backpacking, there is a justification for allowing people to pursue their recreations in these places. I'd be curious hear what you find out from talking to land managers of Wilderness areas, about the reasons to allow/disallow geocaching in these parts. Please do share when you have this research done.

[+Maingray]

As has been mentioned, Wilderness (designated) do not usually allow caches and unless they have permission / overlooked by reviewers, there wont be any in there.

 

When you communicate back to the Wilderness guys (and for your own information as this will impinge on your hypothesis) , please make sure that they know there is a review process for a cache to to be listed on geocaching.com, and that the reviewers are happy to work with any general permit scheme they come up with . I'd love to see well-thought out and well placed caches be more common in Wilderness areas.

 

PS here is a good and useful resource to find designated Wilderness areas in the USA, and who manages them. http://www.wilderness.net/map.cfm

Edited September 11, 2013 by Maingray

[+nthacker66]

That's a good question. My HYPOTHESIS would be that land managers didn't know about the log book, or perhaps rules were more lax 20 years ago. I know according to the practices of the USFS here in Montana, caches in wilderness are NOT allowed. However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness. My question again becomes, has anyone on this forum geocached in wilderness or could they lead me to anyone who has geocached in wilderness? I would prefer Montana cachers but anyone whose geocached in wilderness in the west would also be good to speak with.

 

Why don't you define "wilderness" for us?

 

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.

 

quoted from www.wilderness.net using the framework of 1964 wilderness act.

 

have you geocached in wilderness?

 

Yes, here. http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDfxMDT8MwRydLA1cj72BTJw8jAwjQL8h2VAQAzHJMsQ!!/?ss=110811&ttype=recarea&recid=49146&actid=51&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&position=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&navid=110400000000000&pnavid=110000000000000&pname=Uwharrie+National+Forest+-+Birkhead+Mountains+Wilderness

 

You can see there are several caches in this general area that are permissible. I.e. the land managers know they are there.

What else would you like to know specifically?

[+nthacker66]

Looking at your previous questions. I cannot speak to caching or even hiking in mizzou or montana - but I can offer some insight on what I personally feel about caching (and even hiking) wilderness areas - and its a weak one - it all depends.

 

Since I have been off trail/back country hiking long before there was geocaching, I have always been very tactful at how I treat and explore wilderness areas. In general, though, wilderness areas are pretty hardy and robust. And even if foot traffic quadrupled in a short period of time, you still couldn't "trample underfoot{ if you will, an area enough to make a noticeable impact. Again that is in general. However, there are areas that, for a variety of reasons either because of their rarity of the flora and the habitat of some fauna, or because of restoration projects, should be off limits not to just caching, but all human activity either seasonally or permanently. Two such examples come into mind on the coast of NC. One area where the loggerhead sea turtles nest and the wild corolla horses of the outerbanks. I am a firm believer these areas mustn't be disturbed. While I understand the desire to visit these places (believe me, it tears me up because this is the kind of exploration i live for) even the most well intentioned of us can have a devastating impact on these very sensitive areas.

 

that allbeing said, comes back to my original weak answer - it really all depends. As far as caching specifically goes, I think (besides land manager permission) these caches should be placed as to not create much of an impact on the area they are placed (even if it is hardy). And they should not be anything that is going to require the flora to be too badly disturbed. As well, they should be "just thrown" in any old spot "just because" - or be micros or whibangs ziptied or small gauge wired tied onto a tree limb.

[+KC2WI]

caches in "wilderness" are fine with me.

[+SwineFlew]

That's a good question. My HYPOTHESIS would be that land managers didn't know about the log book, or perhaps rules were more lax 20 years ago. I know according to the practices of the USFS here in Montana, caches in wilderness are NOT allowed. However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness. My question again becomes, has anyone on this forum geocached in wilderness or could they lead me to anyone who has geocached in wilderness? I would prefer Montana cachers but anyone whose geocached in wilderness in the west would also be good to speak with.

I know one for sure. Can you hike 14 miles round trip from the nearest trailhead? It doesnt get many visitors, but those that found it really enjoy it. So far, nobody found it this year.

[+briansnat]

That's a good question. My HYPOTHESIS would be that land managers didn't know about the log book, or perhaps rules were more lax 20 years ago. I know according to the practices of the USFS here in Montana, caches in wilderness are NOT allowed. However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness. My question again becomes, has anyone on this forum geocached in wilderness or could they lead me to anyone who has geocached in wilderness? I would prefer Montana cachers but anyone whose geocached in wilderness in the west would also be good to speak with.

 

Why don't you define "wilderness" for us?

 

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.

 

quoted from www.wilderness.net using the framework of 1964 wilderness act.

 

have you geocached in wilderness?

 

That is the federal definition. There are federal and state designated wilderness areas and yes, I have geocached in state designated wilderness areas.

Edited September 12, 2013 by briansnat

[bremilldrum]

That's a good question. My HYPOTHESIS would be that land managers didn't know about the log book, or perhaps rules were more lax 20 years ago. I know according to the practices of the USFS here in Montana, caches in wilderness are NOT allowed. However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness. My question again becomes, has anyone on this forum geocached in wilderness or could they lead me to anyone who has geocached in wilderness? I would prefer Montana cachers but anyone whose geocached in wilderness in the west would also be good to speak with.

 

Why don't you define "wilderness" for us?

 

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.

 

quoted from www.wilderness.net using the framework of 1964 wilderness act.

 

have you geocached in wilderness?

 

That is the federal definition. There are federal and state designated wilderness areas and yes, I have geocached in state designated wilderness areas.

 

would it be possible to speak with you? I just want to ask 3 questions. Real basic. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

thank you

[bremilldrum]

That's a good question. My HYPOTHESIS would be that land managers didn't know about the log book, or perhaps rules were more lax 20 years ago. I know according to the practices of the USFS here in Montana, caches in wilderness are NOT allowed. However, I'm sure people still geocache in designated wilderness. My question again becomes, has anyone on this forum geocached in wilderness or could they lead me to anyone who has geocached in wilderness? I would prefer Montana cachers but anyone whose geocached in wilderness in the west would also be good to speak with.

 

Why don't you define "wilderness" for us?

 

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.

 

quoted from www.wilderness.net using the framework of 1964 wilderness act.

 

have you geocached in wilderness?

 

That is the federal definition. There are federal and state designated wilderness areas and yes, I have geocached in state designated wilderness areas.

 

would it be possible to speak with you? I just want to ask 3 questions. Real basic. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

thank you

[+Panther&Pine]

 

would it be possible to speak with you? I just want to ask 3 questions. Real basic. My email is bremilldrum@yahoo.com

 

thank you

 

Why don't you just post those questions here for everyone to see?

 

 

 

It really seems like you are fishing for a scandal.

[bremilldrum]

I am posting for everyone to see. No scandal unless there is one...but I just wanted to know more about geocaching. If someone is not comfortable speaking with me, they don't have to. I'm being transparent here

[+nthacker66]

I am posting for everyone to see. No scandal unless there is one...but I just wanted to know more about geocaching. If someone is not comfortable speaking with me, they don't have to. I'm being transparent here

 

If you are writing a paper, you really should post your questions here to get different opinions (trust me, the people in these forums will have wildly varying opinions). I think in asking Brian you will get a very well thought and experienced set of answers. I also think in posting the questions you will get some other insights for various geographic areas that may sneak into political views regarding wilderness usage.

 

You have to excuse us here - many in these forums can be quite pointed and those of us who post often in here have developed a defensive style because, to be perfectly blunt and honest, this isn't a nice place. But, you haven't been clear on what it is you really want, so it seems fishy.

 

So please just ask what you want to ask and take the answers (or don't) for what they are worth (if anything) - again YMMV (your milage may vary).

 

p.s. - please please PLEASE don't let these forums be representative of your opinions of the geocaching community. By and large, the majority of cachers don't bother to even come in here because they feel it is toxic and over opinionated (and yes, I include myself as a contributor to that mix). MOST cacher's while are a touch to majorly OCD, are some of the nicest people I know. ;-) of course, you have to be a bit OCD to find caches anyway!

Edited September 12, 2013 by nthacker66

[+Panther&Pine]

I am posting for everyone to see. No scandal unless there is one...but I just wanted to know more about geocaching. If someone is not comfortable speaking with me, they don't have to. I'm being transparent here

 

If you are writing a paper, you really should post your questions here to get different opinions (trust me, the people in these forums will have wildly varying opinions). I think in asking Brian you will get a very well thought and experienced set of answers. I also think in posting the questions you will get some other insights for various geographic areas that may sneak into political views regarding wilderness usage.

 

You hav to excuse us here - many in these forums can be quite pointed and those of us who post often in here have developed a defensive style because, to be perfectly blunt and honest, this isn't a nice place. But, you haven't been clear on what it is you really want, so it seems fishy.

 

So please just ask what you want to ask and take the answers (or don't) for what they are worth (if anything) - again YMMV (your milage may vary).

I'm still unsure if they are interested in caches placed in natural areas that are difficult to get to, caches place in designated wilderness ares with permission, caches placed in designated wilderness areas without explicit permission or just rural caching.

[+nthacker66]

I am posting for everyone to see. No scandal unless there is one...but I just wanted to know more about geocaching. If someone is not comfortable speaking with me, they don't have to. I'm being transparent here

 

If you are writing a paper, you really should post your questions here to get different opinions (trust me, the people in these forums will have wildly varying opinions). I think in asking Brian you will get a very well thought and experienced set of answers. I also think in posting the questions you will get some other insights for various geographic areas that may sneak into political views regarding wilderness usage.

 

You hav to excuse us here - many in these forums can be quite pointed and those of us who post often in here have developed a defensive style because, to be perfectly blunt and honest, this isn't a nice place. But, you haven't been clear on what it is you really want, so it seems fishy.

 

So please just ask what you want to ask and take the answers (or don't) for what they are worth (if anything) - again YMMV (your milage may vary).

I'm still unsure if they are interested in caches placed in natural areas that are difficult to get to, caches place in designated wilderness ares with permission, caches placed in designated wilderness areas without explicit permission or just rural caching.

 

Same here, which is why a few of us are asking the OP to clarify what their questions are.

[+e-bird67]

Go Griz!

 

I did a stint at U of M in the Wildlife Biology department, and recreated around Missoula for a few years, so delurking to say welcome! I moved away before Geocaching emerged as a hobby, so have never cached there, but have a few thoughts as someone who is environmentally conscious and a geocacher. I just eyeballed the listings in Missoula, and many of my favorite hiking areas, Mt. Sentinel amd Pattee Canyon, have caches now. Dang.

 

First of all, it might be helpful for you to read up on your area land agencies and their geocaching policies, as each agency sets its own policies. For example, some state parks systems allow caches and others do not. Cachers work very closely with land agencies to clarify policies and the reviewers will not allow caches to be placed in areas where the agencies have said they cannot. Some states and agencies actually co-op geocaching and use it as a marketing tool to increase visitation.

 

I am environmentally aware, and I am pro-caching, as long as caches are hidden responsibly and cachers behave responsibly, and I believe that most of us do. I have some thoughts, and will shoot you an e-mail some time tomorrow.

[+DonB]

I'm being transparent here

Where have I heard that before?

Edited September 13, 2013 by DonB

[+NeverSummer]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

 

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas. the rattlesnake for example, are there any cache's in there?

No, you may not geocache on federally designated Wilderness.

 

Edit to add:

As I'm sure you can imagine, there is quite a bit of confusion on this topic. In my experience with the federal government and geocaching, I have been told that geocaching is not an approved activity for federally designated Wilderness areas under the 1964 Wilderness Act. The US Forest Service often quotes their field manual, under FSM 2320, that geocaching is not an approved activity within federally designated wilderness. The US Fish and Wildlife Service has a ban on geocaches on the entirety of their lands, including federally designated Wilderness.

 

However, I also know--first hand--that there is much confusion even among the federal officials who might be asked about geocaching. Here is the fact: Not everyone in federal service knows what geocaching is, and, therefore, is not equipped to speak to any existing regulations that might limit geocaching on the lands they might oversee.

 

There are some agencies with explicit regulations for geocaching, yet the station managers might now know about these regulations, rules, or bans. That is because it really isn't on our radar as federal employees. We are working on many, many other things that occupy our time, and, quite often, it is much more difficult to track down the "right" answer up the ladder than it is to just make a quick site assessment and say, "Sure, sounds harmless enough..."

 

That doesn't make it ok to place geocaches there. It is our job as geocachers to make sure that we have proper permissions to place geocaches where we do. When it comes to federal lands, it is incredibly variable based on the agency, their mission, and their individual land management plans and policies (which change CONSTANTLY!). It gets confusing. I know.

 

The bottom line is, there are special use permits that can give access to certain uses on federal lands. If one wants to place a geocache on federal land in any situation, ask about the permitting process. That, truly, is the process for getting a geocache placed on any federally-controlled lands.

Edited September 14, 2013 by NeverSummer

[+cheech gang]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

 

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas. the rattlesnake for example, are there any cache's in there?

No, you may not geocache on federally designated Wilderness.

 

Does this count? National Forest

Edited September 14, 2013 by cheech gang

[+nthacker66]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

 

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas. the rattlesnake for example, are there any cache's in there?

No, you may not geocache on federally designated Wilderness.

 

Does this count? National Forest

 

No. A federal wilderness designation is different than a nation forest. But federally designated wilderness areas are in national forests.

[+NeverSummer]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

 

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas. the rattlesnake for example, are there any cache's in there?

No, you may not geocache on federally designated Wilderness.

 

Does this count? National Forest

Read page 2, center column, first full bullet.

[+cheech gang]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

 

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas. the rattlesnake for example, are there any cache's in there?

No, you may not geocache on federally designated Wilderness.

 

Does this count? National Forest

 

No. A federal wilderness designation is different than a nation forest. But federally designated wilderness areas are in national forests.

 

Okay, thnaks.

[+cheech gang]

Are you talking about wilderness in general, as in an uninhabited area? Or are you talking about a designated wilderness area?

 

My favorite places to Geocache are in the forest, and or woods. However, most areas designated as wilderness have rules that ban Geocaching. You would need to check with the local land managers of the area your interested in caching in, to know if you can or can't cache there.

 

To be clear, I am talking about designated wilderness areas. I am trying to get a feel for how geocachers in this area feel about the existence or nonexistence of restrictions in these areas. the rattlesnake for example, are there any cache's in there?

No, you may not geocache on federally designated Wilderness.

 

Does this count? National Forest

 

No. A federal wilderness designation is different than a nation forest. But federally designated wilderness areas are in national forests.

 

Okay, thanks.

[+NeverSummer]

Department of the Interior includes:

-National Park Service

-US Fish and Wildlife Service

-Bureau of Land Management

 

Department of Agriculture includes:

-US Forest Service

 

The bold are the greater, overarching federal departments (overseen by Presidentially-designated Secretaries in the cabinet) in charge of the agencies below. The Wilderness Act of 1964 is a law that gives Congress the ability to set aside and designate lands as they see fit as Wilderness. Those federally-designated Wilderness Areas are all managed by the agencies noted above.

 

Now, each agency has their own director, who reports to their individual Secretary, who is in charge of policy creation and implementation of the agencies under the direction of the President.

 

This means that there can be much confusion if geocaching hasn't made it to the Director-level of attention. If the activity isn't a clear part of each agency's management plan (NPS, USFWS, BLM, USFS, etc), it won't be clearly dealt with at the consumer level.

 

For example, the USFWS has directives about fish and wildlife from the agency level. The agency director--in this case Dan Ashe for USFWS--gives priority directive to the individual regions of the agency. There are 7 in the US for the USFWS. Each Region sets priorities for their individual stations, or, in this case, Refuges. At this time, one of the priorities is Education and Outreach. This is the proverbial "lowest on the totem pole", and would include the activities of geocaching...if it were to be included anywhere.

 

Here is the problem: The activity falls under Outreach and Education, yet needs review from the Biological divisions of each Refuge...under directive of the Region, who is guided by the agency, which is controlled and guided by the Secretary/Department.

 

You see, Wilderness (big "W") is designated by the government, administered by the agency, and not all agencies have the same directives. That is why, for example, the USFS and NPS will allow geocaching on their lands with some rules and restrictions. The ONLY common thread is that geocaches are not allowed on federally-designated Wilderness at this time. The Wilderness Act is law, versus agency policy.

Edited September 14, 2013 by NeverSummer

[+fizzymagic]

My issue with this whole thread is that I sense an agenda here; the OP has a definition of "wilderness" that is rather vague and is not willing to share his questions publicly.

 

I have a well-earned aversion to having my words used against me by "journalists" promoting an agenda. My experience tells me not to trust journalists in general; I expect that pretty much anybody who has dealt with them to any extent has the same hesitancy. Without a great deal more information from the OP, I have no intention of engaging in a discussion of the topic with him.