Ever beenambushed by ticks?

March 26, 2002

I'm wondering how many people have been attacked by ticks while geocaching...

Today we most definatley were! Last weekend we were in a park in Erie PA where they had tick warning signs at every trail head. We used tick spray last week but today the group scoffed at me and bounded down the trail with naria a waft of bug spray. We spent our morning looking for a cache in NC. On other cache we puposely removed travelors but up until today we were never the mode of transportation for a mass exidus.

My family and I are from Western NY. We left home on Saturday to go on a caching vacation to end at my mom's house in Bolivia, NC. We headed out to our second cache just as the heat was starting to go up (30s at home near 80 while we cached). Stayed on the main trail for quite a bit and then, as guided by the GPS, darted off on a path less taken.

A bit of "whoa", "hot", "thwank", "ouch" and "is that a tick?" could be heard from various members of the group. Eversure and I found the cache box right off. We traded items and the cache was in fine shape....but we weren't once we had finished our trip out of the bush....

We renamed the cache, at least for our group...Moutain Tick Trap....because we unleased a virtual horde of the nasty beasties. We took a different path out as usually we find a quicker way out than in. While traversing this, a lot more less taken path, we discovered many shrubby bushes and brambles....Well there must have been ticks laying in massing waiting for unsuspecting humans. As a matter of fact butterfly girl (who had never seen a tick before) commented "I have spiders all over my arms". She says she pushed 10 to 20 off her. Once we got out into the main path we all began to remove ticks...this we continued to do on the walk out, were the van was parked, as we administered after the fact spray, while in the car (I had one crawling up my stomach), in the parking lot, on the balcony of our hotel room and then found them slipping down the drain as we each took a shower....we will always, always, ALWAYS put on bug spray when we go geocaching!

So what's your tick story like?

Dx

BTW I think I am experiencing parasympathetic feelings...I can see no ticks but feel them crawling on me as I sit here typing

"Have you no news on your travels?" the Book of fairy & folk tales of Ireland (1888)

[This message was edited by DxChallenged on March 27, 2002 at 04:20 AM.]

March 26, 2002

wow that's even worse then Presque Isle, the most I've ever pulled off my clothes there was 6. You may want to try Permathin (sp) and set aside a set of clothes specifically for geocaching.

March 26, 2002

Coincidentally, I read your log of Mountain Toy Joy cache JUST prior to seeing this thread. I've seen several recent logs of local caches mentioning tick infestations.

It looks like the ticks are out early in full force!

1k · March 26, 2002

Last year my son, my nephew and I went to Umsted State Park in NC ... for a specific cache located just past the boundary ... We were in a rush, bushwhacked a bit and of course didn't prep (deet) We did tuck our pants in our socks ... but to make a long story short ... 36 ticks off myself, 28 ticks off my son and 18 off my nephew ... guess who broke trail? We now use permethrin on our clothes and deet everywhere else ... Eastern NC in the spring and summer is the Kingdom of the TICK!

March 26, 2002

Last season, I was out grouse hunting on an unusually warm fall day, when I noticed one of my two dogs had a tick on him. I stopped and brushed it off for her, when I looked down and realized my body was covered with literally HUNDREDS of them. They had managed to get up the inside of my pants leg as well as in the waistband. I ran 100 yards or so to a gravel road, and stripped my self down, all the way.........

And then around the bend came 2 trucks, with a family in each one, pulling horse trailers for an Indian summer horseback ride through the state forest..........With pants in hand, I dove into the underbrush and waited them out. They saw me, but mercifully pulled on down the road...... è

5k · March 27, 2002

(shudder)

Geesh... I've never had an experience like that. Ticks don't really bother me... but reading those stories makes me a little jittery.

Most I've ever had were maybe a dozen... and I just plucked 'em off and went on my way. If I could "brush" them off... that might give me the heebeegeebees.

Jamie

March 27, 2002

Clothes and ticks...so fearless leader says to me as we were walking out of the brush "Ya know the ticks stick on to our clothing. So if we didn't have any on we wouldn't have the ticks." Is this true? (I ask as I sit here itching my head)

Hawkeye...I found your card in the first cache we did and saved it. I've read your postings often and thought that the card would be a nice addition to my cacheing bag.

Dx

"Have you no news on your travels?" the Book of fairy & folk tales of Ireland (1888)

1k · March 27, 2002

Big problems with ticks in NC ... especially eastern NC in the spring and summer ... and we have at least two variations here ... a larger one that is more associated with Rocky Mtn. Spotted fever and the tiny ... almost pin point sized Deer Tick ... can you say Lyme Disease? They typically grab a ride on the clothing .. then work themselves into "you". It's always good to wear light colored clothing ... so you can see them easier. Tucking your pants legs into your socks helps ... also looks geeky to the extreme ...

My favorite technique is real simple ... I spray the socks and pants ... and sometimes the shirt in a spray of permethrin ... DON'T USE THIS ON THE SKIN ... it will actually last about two weeks. This is one of the best defenses for ticks ... the other is DEET ... yeah, I know it's got all kinds of bad press ... but there is nothing ... and I mean nothing that works better and the strongest concentration of deet you feel comfortable with ... NOTE: If you have delicate skin ... try it before you cover yourself in it ... some people can't tolerate it. Unscientific observation ... I tend to burn easier in the sun when wearing any deet containing product ...

One more thing ... wear a hat ... they love hair ... I think it is considered the prime "spring break" destination for ticks!

1k · March 27, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk-eye:
Last year my son, my nephew and I went to Umsted State Park in NC

Ok so this isn't really a tick story, but it involves umstead park. My wife and I almost got stuck in that park when we lived in NC. We were biking through, got lost and couldn't find our car. By time we realized where we were, it was almost dark and we were prolly 3 miles from the car. Now keep in mind we just got these bikes and were not avid bike riders. We didn't have lights on our bikes and had to follow the "light part" of the path to get back to the car. It got pitch black by time we were halfway back....we bought bike lights since then. :-)

TEAM SHIBBY!!!!

Krs, Kar & Na

March 27, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Team Shibby:
...My wife and I almost got stuck in that park when we lived in NC. We were biking through, got lost and couldn't find our car...

What, no GPS?

March 28, 2002

So the story continues....I must say that we did a very good job in tick removal. Checked everyone in the group several times. We stopped while on route back to the hotel to throw ticks off. Once we got to our room everyone sat on the balcony and priority was given as far as shower order, to the ones with the most ticks removed. I was third in the shower in a line of 5. I think that we had close to 90% removal rate....The one we missed I found yesterday

I reached around my side, dug at this thing I couldn't see. Dug a bit more. It came off in my fingernail. About 1/8". Still moving I screamed....

So now that I've calmed down...My question is. Is there anything that I should do now? I know that these are supposed to be removed with medicine...or a end of a match just blown out...but I didn't know what it was...anything I should put on the site...little red mark?

We drive to my parents today. My Dad's had many a bite. He'll know what to do...but I'de also welcome any info you might have.....

Dx

"Have you no news on your travels?" the Book of fairy & folk tales of Ireland (1888)

1k · March 28, 2002

Clean the spot and watch it for redness and especially for a ring pattern around the area ... also ... fever is not a good sign ... if you have any of these ... stop by and have a doctor take a look at it. 9 times out of 10 you should be OK ... now don't scratch at the spot and then think it turned red on it's own!

March 28, 2002

I hope they aren't that bad, but I just got a Floridian Travel Bug. I didn't notice it until I was back in Wisconsin. It was tiny. I removed it with my finger nails. I think I got the head, but they don't have much of a head. That was on the 19th. yesterday I noticed the bite looked a little like a pimple. there's no "bullseye rash", but it creeps me out to think about it. It's in a real embarrassing place.

March 28, 2002

We started caching in June of last year and take our dog with us about half of the time. We haven't come back home yet without ticks on the dog. I found one crawling on my shirt sleeve last weekend. Yuck! We often find 2-6 on the dog after caching (they make themselves known several days later since she's a black dog), but that is the first one I've had. Trickster had one last spring start attaching around his waste-band area, but we got it off before it started sucking. Ew!

--

Bob & Genny

March 28, 2002

Geez DX,

You'll want to watch that, like the other's have said bullseye pattern or a fever. ALthough I heard the Bullseye some times doesn't show up or sometimes takes weeks to show up. I'd talk to your dad and then maybe call your doctor. See what he has to say, a course of antibiotics is all you need, heck take it just to be safe. That being said you also don't want to remove the tick with a match, as it can cause them to vomit their nastiness into you, pulling them out and ripping them in half is also bad as once again they can vomit into you. A pair or tweezers or a specialized Tick Remover, cheap plastic thing is the ideal way to have them removed.

March 28, 2002

I've never had more than about 6 or 7 ticks at a time, but the little buggers really gross me out... if I find a tick while caching, I always make a note of it in my logs so future cachers will know. I had a couple of the tiny, near-microscopic variety two weekends ago, and this past weekend I had a monster of a tick.

I didn't even know about the monster tick until I was driving home on the interstate. He was running up my leg at about mach 3, so I got him on my hand right before he got to my shorts. I tried to get my girlfriend to grab it, but she refused, so I stuck my hand out the window. The thing held on while I was driving 70 mph down the interstate! It must have been using Bowflex... I finally convinced my GF to get it off my hand, so she swatted it - onto the floor of the car (and I have a black interior...) she finally got it on her shoe, and held her shoe out the window. Bye bye nasty thing...

March 29, 2002

Went to a cache that was previously reported to be infested with ticks. Sprayed down with 28% deet, clothes and skin, and never saw one on me. I will continue to do so in the future as ticks are carrying toooo many diseases as of now.

Wal-mart has several sprays for your clothes and skin that are supposed to keep ticks at bay.

4.5k · March 30, 2002

My first month out geocaching last October I got bit by an adult female tick. Fortunately becasue they are so big at the end of the season, I saw it the next morning while showering. It attached itself on my stomach (I hadn't tucked my shirt in). I used a plastic tick remover I had bought for my dog. Worked pretty good but left in half its mandible (mpouth). It was still alive so I stuck it in a ziplock and mailed it to a lab for examination. Meanwhile my doctor puts me on antibiotic for a week just to be safe. A week later the results come back and sure enough the tick had Lyme disease. So my doctor prescribes antibiotics for a month (for me not the tick). I still have a mark where the tick bit.

I've posted my experience on the cache site (Homestead) http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=8491 which is in Saxon Woods in Westchester County in NY one of the worst counties for Lyme in the country. Haven't noticed anyone paying too much attention to my cache post or another guy who mentioned the problem in the area.

That's one of the reason I got a walking stick - just to poke around while looking for a cache. Even though I'm loaded up with Pemethrin and Deet, I really wonder if the risk of getting bit again is worth it. Maybe I'll stick with virtuals thi season altogether.

Alan

March 31, 2002

Just went out to find a cache. Stopped and picked up OFF - 100% deet. Decided to buy a 2nd to leave in the cache container. Back now. So far, no ticks found.

1k · March 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by ShibaScott:
... Decided to buy a 2nd to leave in the cache container. Back now. So far, no ticks found....

That's a very nice thing to do ... by the way ... what part of the TICK COUNTRY, USA are you from ... it doesn't show in your profile.

April 3, 2002

This topic got me thinking and I decided to do some online research about lyme disease. I found that there is a fairly new vaccine out for the disease. Sounds like a good thing for geocachers. Here is a link to more info.

http://www.aldf.com/LateBreakingNews.html#PARA4

April 4, 2002

I read some where that it was being pulled off the market due to low sales / no profits

April 4, 2002

Hey Max thanks for posting about that. I couldn't find anything about it being taken from the market but, I did find some controversy about it.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/lyme_vaccine0516.html

I think I will wait a while before trying this vaccine.

April 4, 2002

I had a couple of college chums who were biology majors. One was studying newts, the other ticks. One late evening in early spring the three of us were helping the newt woman on her senior project. I inadvertantly helped the tick woman, too: I discovered a deer tick on my chest after we all got home. Screaming heebee-jeebee time. She pulled it and tested it for Lyme disease. Can't remember if it came up positive or negative but I never showed any signs of infection.

Some notes that might help ya'll: ticks can't jump and they don't hang overhead waiting to drop on you. In fact, they crawl upwards in a circular, spirally fashion. I found a link that may prove helpful.

http://www.vdh.state.va.us/epi/ti063099.htm

As long as you're careful you should be okay. Though rummaging through leaf litter doesn't help much...

April 4, 2002

We live in the woods (literally) and ticks are a fact of life. Fortunately we don't live in an area with a high incidence of lyme disease. We make *tick checks* a nightly ritual during the season. DEET and permethrin (sp?) work well but one word of caution on the DEET. Be careful using it on small children. A friend and coworker (EMS) told me of one case she had where a 2yo girl went into status epilepticus (a continuous seizure) and nearly died after having bug spray applied. Probably a rare case but something to consider.

For my kids, I avoided bug spray altogether when they were under 2. For the older kids, I use the lowest level of DEET that I feel will do the job. Around the house, I've found that OFF for Kids works fine. I'm a firm believer in DEET and have gone with 100% at times that I've felt it necessary.

For our dogs, I really like the oil stuff that you only have to apply a couple drops to keep ticks away. I can't remember the name of it but it worked great us.

Hoosiermom - team leader of GeoStars

8.9k · April 4, 2002

Tick repellant for pets: FrontLine.

Markwell

My Geocaching Page

4.5k · April 6, 2002

I use Frontline on my wife's poodle but he picked up a tick anyway. I'm sure it works better than not using anything but nothing's perfect. Now that we're getting into tick season again, my wife won't let me take him on hunts. She doesn't say anything about me not going however. Hmmm.

Alan

April 7, 2002

I've had several nudist friends tell me that, and even read it somewhere, but I've never tested the theory.

I am skeptical, although I think what happens is that ticks try to find somewhere sheltered before they attach, and if you're wearing clothing it's harder for them to get to a sheltered part of your body before you notice them. I have seen similar issues with fire ants...

My daughter caught lyme disease while in rural Connecticut...luckily it was diagnosed & treated early and the neurological symptoms (facial palsy) only lasted a week or so. Not something you want to mess around with, for sure.

quote:
Originally posted by DxChallenged:
Clothes and ticks...so fearless leader says to me as we were walking out of the brush "Ya know the ticks stick on to our clothing. So if we didn't have any on we wouldn't have the ticks." Is this true? (I ask as I sit here itching my head)

April 10, 2002

Hey.....So it has now been over two weeks since our ambush. Our family's responses have been varied.

1. Fearless spins a great tale about the whole thing.....except that I approach it like a fish story.......I currently am up to 500 ticks and he stays closer or even below the true count... around 60 to 100 invaded us.

2. I won't leave home without a bug spray and use it everywhere I go (ok so you can't get ticks at the mall but then you never can be too careful). The rest of the family uses spray but I get the "Is this really necessary, look.

3. I'm still sulking about getting the only "sticker". Left no residual marks. No red ring. On for less than 24 hours but I still wonder and check.... actually I envision a tick looking like that graemlin.

4. the kids have been very quiet about the whole buggy event........

My question now is......If we missed any would we have discovered them by now?

BTW...I'de rather use bug spray & leave my clothes on than test the clothes theory........

DX

"Have you no news on your travels?" the Book of fairy & folk tales of Ireland (1888)

4.5k · April 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by DxChallenged:
Hey.....So it has now been over two weeks since our ambush. Our family's responses have been varied.

...My question now is......If we missed any would

Don't look now but what's that thing hanging off behind your ear? All kiddin' aside I identify with your concern. Just reading this topic gives me the willies. I'm scratching all over! After last Oct with my deer tick bite that was infected with Lyme, I've grown more and more concerned. I just don't have the confidende in Deet and Perethrin adn wearing white clothes and checking constantly, etc. Just two days ago I read of a cache in westchester COunty here in NY where someone picked up a tick already. I've heard that because of the mild winter, this is really going to be a bad tick season.

I've just plotted out with routes, waypoints, etc a weekend hunt of covered bridges here in NYS with virtual geocaches thrown in along the way. Frankly, I don't want to be out bushwacking and worrying about ticks. I'll take it up again next November after the the tick season is over.

Anyone else in Lyme/deer tick zone territory like NYS thinking about a similar approach? (I'd hate to be the only weenie around!)

Alan

April 14, 2002

I grew up in the TX hill country and ticks were a fact of life. One of the things I learned that you might want to tuck away in your memory banks is that most of the time if you deprive the tick of air you can get them to pull out on their own, so that no mouth parts or other yucky stuff are left behind, then you can get rid of them safely. The two methods we used were nail polish and petroleum jelly. You have to make sure it gets all around their head, and sometimes you have to wait a while for it to work. Then like everyone said already, watch for signs of infection and don't scratch!

Heebie-Jeebies (and some great laughs) definitely abound in this thread!

moosiegirl (Candy)

April 23, 2002

Part of my job requires me to help people understand ticks and how they affect people’s health. I would normally not respond to a forum posting in such detail, but I think that it is important for geocachers to be well informed about ticks, so I am going to step up onto my lecture box. I hope no one takes offence. If any one would like to ask me any questions I would be happy to answer them.

Having spent several weeks in school learning to identify ticks and the diseases that they carry, I just wanted to clarify a common misconception, shared by Hawkeye, about ticks. I read in this and in other threads that the Lyme disease tick is the size of a pin head, while the Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever(RMSF) tick is much larger. I say Lyme disease tick, and RMSF Tick, because in actual fact several different types of ticks can transmit these diseases. The most common vector for Lyme disease is Ixodes scapularis (common name: Deer Tick or Blacklegged Tick), but it is generally believed that Lyme disease may be carried and transmitted by any of the ticks in the Genus of Ixodes. RMSF can also be transmitted by the Deer tick, as well as its more common carrier the Rocky mountain wood tick (Dermacentor andersoni). These two are by no means the only transmitters of RMSF. In the East the most common carriers of RMSF are the Deer tick and the Dog tick (Dermacentor varabilis). You can get RMSF if you have never left the east coast.

It is difficult to identify ticks by size or color, or shape. All ticks go through four life stages. 1) Adults mate and lay eggs. 2) Eggs hatch into larval stage ticks that are usually smaller then a pinhead. These larvae are often called "seed ticks," and readily identifiable because they have three sets of legs (as opposed to the four sets of all adult arachnids). Larval ticks are so small even when engorged that they are easily overlooked—see picture. 3) The larval ticks molt (grow) into nymphs after the first blood meal. These ticks regardless of species are all a little bigger then an pin head, and all have four sets of legs. 4) The nymphs take a blood meal, detach and molt into the adult tick. Identified by the large size and a four sets of legs. Identification of species is fairly easy to trained personnel at the adult stage. To make identification of ticks by size even more difficult there is sexual dimorphism in ticks as with most arachnids. Males tend to be ½ to 2/3 the size of females.

Basher_boy D.V.M.

5k · April 23, 2002

BB,

Thanks... it's wonderful the amount of expertise we have amongst us all.

Jamie

4.5k · April 23, 2002

Thanks for the treatise. ZOne question and one comment.

1. While permetrin is to be used on clothes beforehand, can it also be used as a spray-on insecticide after the fact. In other words, after you return from the hunt and before you get in you car, spray your clothes down with Permetrin. I've been unable to find any info on this on the web. Since the chemical is used for killing lice in hair, it seems like a reasonable additional protection.

2. It was my post that discussed the tick on my dog after using Frontline. And the tick was embeded however it's possible that we had exceded the thirty day limit.

Tks

Alan

1k · April 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by basher_boy:
... I just wanted to clarify a common misconception, shared by Hawkeye, about ticks. ...

Not a misconception ... just a generalization ... and no offense taken ...

Thanks for the detailed information by the way ... and to summarize ... TICKS BAD! Did I mention I hate ticks?

April 24, 2002

Forget about those ticks, Hawkeye. They can't touch you on your 100th cache adventure!

1k · April 24, 2002

Boy you guys gotta quit hanging with EL DIABLO ... he's starting to rub off on you!

Can't wait till Saturday!

2.9k · April 24, 2002

Ticks are starting to enter the Detroit Michigan area now.

Now I will have Ticks, West Nile Virus Skeeters, wicked Horse flys, and etc.

Questions:

Is there anyway of destroying Just the Tick populations?

Is there a natural predator that eats the ticks??

Is global warming to blame for all the crappy bugs up in the northern part of the United States?

I used to hike in the northeast US, but now I may have to move my hiking activities into canada now.

My home page about GPS units and information

April 24, 2002

First a little bit on Pyrethrin/pyrethroid/permethrins:

Pyrethrin is a compound that was first isolated from the chrysanthemum plant, and found to be an effective toxicant against most invertebrates (nematodes, arachnids, insects, etc.)

Pyrethroids are any of the compounds that are similar to, or in the same family as Pyrethin. Permethrin is one, as well as Fluvalinate, Deltramethrin,Cyfluthrin, and Bifenthrin are some others that are labeled for the control of ticks. These compounds are all more or less toxic to ticks, insects, and vertebrates. It is not wise to come in contact with any toxin, but in small concentrations most Vertebrates should be safe at the labeled dose. Pyrethrin is probably the least toxic to humans, dogs, and ticks.

Now for Alan2's first question: I would imagine the labeled dose/use of Permethrin as a clothing toxicant should prove to be maximally effective. i.e. being cognicent of the possible toxicity issues I would keep my exposure to the compound as minimal as possible.

Alan2's second question/statement: Correct application of Frontline, requires repetition every thirty days, with a large enough dose for your size pet, directly to the skin, without getting the pet wet for 24-48 hours. Some things to keep in mind--Fipronyl (the active ingredient in Frontline) is broken down in sunlight. Some dogs are so big that it is necessary to apply some of the dose between the shoulder blades, and some between the hips.

Some extra info about Fipronil: Fipronil is toxic in larger then therapeutic doses to rats, with many long term effects including carcinogenesis. The effects on humans are unknown, but it is wise to minimize contact with the compound. It is highly lipid soluble, which means that latex gloves would offer little or no protection against exposure, and any contact will quickly be absorbed through the skin. I don’t want to scare anyone form using the compound, but we must all balance the benefit against the cost. It works by paralyzing the tick/flea, especially the stomach, and intestines of the tick/flea.

quote:
Is there anyway of destroying Just the Tick populations?

No there are really no selective ways to destroy just ticks in the wild. The same compounds that are toxic to ticks are toxic to other vertebrates and invertebrates to varying degrees. The best way to minimize exposure to ticks is to minimize the habitat. For most ticks in the east this is brush, while in the grasslands of the west (Gulf Coast Tick, and Lone Star Tick) it is the long grass.

Tick’s biggest natural predators are believed to be birds, I am not sure which ones or even if specific birds like ticks preferentially.

Global warming is unlikely to be a factor in the spread of Ticks. Many of the most well publicized ticks are what are known as cold weather ticks. Dermacentor sp. like cold weather and the mating adults are most common during late fall early spring. Ixodes sp. are the same. These are the species most responsible for RMSF, and Lyme Disease.

Ixodes sp.

One final note: Probably the best collar for tick prevention is a collar Impregnated with Amitraz. Amatraz is a compound that has been shown to be very effective against all forms of arachnids. It a much more selective compound then the pyrethroids or fipronil. It is not terribly toxic to insects (like fleas) or vertebrates (like your kids). Unfortunately these collars a more expensive, and are only available from your friendly Veterinarian.

April 24, 2002

A couple of questions:

1) What purpose do ticks serve in the wild? Where in the ecosystem of the forest that we all learned about in middle school does the tick fit in?

2) Do you have links to any good sites concerning Borelia burgdorfi that are from a microbiological stand point?

4.5k · April 24, 2002

Thanks again BB. Your comment, "Now for Alan2's first question: I would imagine the labeled dose/use of Permethrin as a clothing toxicant should prove to be maximally effective. i.e. being cognicent of the possible toxicity issues I would keep my exposure to the compound as minimal as possible."

What I did was simply spray the two week variety around my socks and pants before I got back into the car where my dog and wife were waiting. I hadn't pre-treated the clothes but figured if there was a live tick crawling , the permetrin spray would hit it and kill it. I'm glad you concurred. I'm spraying on clothes not skin. I've read elsewheres that there's been no known adverse reaction to permetrin, unlike deet products. Of course permetrins deactivate on skin after 20 minutes so there also not effective there while deet is effective on skin.

Frankly the problem I have (after going through a Lyme infected female adult Deer tick bite last October and being on antibiotics for a month) is that I know none of this chemical stuff is perfect protection and it still requires lots of checking etc. For me I cannot seem to make it worthwhile to bushwack to the caches during tick season. Alas, for me, it's not worth the trouble to do it on a regular basis or hunt in really thick tick country like we have around where I live.

Alan

April 25, 2002

GatoRX—Ticks are a valuable food source in the wild. As I mentioned earlier birds eat ticks quite happily. Think of the Cattle Egrets that you have seen on TV picking ticks off of Cape Buffalo in Africa (Aside: the notion that these Birds are actually picking the ticks off of the Buffalo has been recently contested, and it may be that they are also making wounds and eating the blood that seeps from it). In old time farmyards the number one way to keep tick populations down was chickens. We often have had Guinea Hens for the same purpose. You might also ask yourself what the purpose of mosquitoes and horseflies are. I have a feeling that they fill a niche that is far from fully understood, and the diseases that they are vectors for also play a valuable role in the ecosystem.

In Africa DDT was sprayed religiously in parts of Botswana. This was in an effort to destroy the Tsetse fly Glossina sp./Tryptosome sp. vector/infectious agent axis. DDT effectively eradicated the Tsetse from the area, and consequently the diseases caused by the Tryptosome sp. organism. What it also did was allow both native and domesticated animal populations to grow out of control, to the point that there was a moderate population crash in the area due to over-grazing. It did however make a trip to the area much more attractive to tourists. You never want to be bitten by a Tsetse fly. They will slice open a cotton shirt to get into your soft flesh. It makes a Tabanus sp. (horse fly, deer fly, buffalo fly) bites look like a walk in the park.

--Lyme biology-- A super accurate B. burgdorfi site by a Veterinary parisitologist.

--CDC-- A nice CDC document about Borrelia burgdorfi

--Tick borne disease in U.S.-- A nice page about various tick born diseases in the U.S. (I read one inaccuracy in this one. Tick season for the deer tick is the beginning and end of the summer. But the Mid summer is the time when most people are venturing outdoors and coming in contact with ticks. Remember adult deer ticks/black-legged ticks Ixodes scapularis are cold weather ticks. Remember that this field changes almost as fast electronics. I bet that you didn’t realize that the world was such a dangerous place!

If you are really serious about B. burgdorfi you might want to get onto medline and search the scientific literature.

Alan2—Queens NY=tick country? I have lived in an area where deer ticks are a fact of life, when I walk out of my door. I usually pick one or two off me on an average day during the spring, summer, and fall. I personally don’t use any of the fore mentioned chemical treatments. I rely on the check method. When I was a kid the whole family used to sit around the T.V. checking each other.

I don’t know about your personal experience with lyme disease, but mine went something like this. I was bitten by a tick, of unknown species, which I found embedded in a large sore welt on the back of my arm. I went to the family doctor, and he sent the tick in, as well as sending in SINGLE immuno-assay test to the local lab. I left the doctor to start a “just-in-case” oxytetracycline course for one month. Both the tick and the blood came back positive for Lyme. This does not mean that I had lyme disease. To definitively find if I had been infected with B. burgdorfi I would have to have had TWO of the same blood test taken one or two weeks apart. In practice this is never done, as it is just easier and possibly safer to prescribe a course of antibiotics based on tick exposure and clinical signs. My medical record says I have had lyme disease, when in actual fact there is no scientific proof of the fact. The important thing for people to take from this is that exposure does not equal infection does not equal disease. It is important to play it safe. I have since had two more courses of oxytetrecycline for possible exposures to this organism.

As far as toxicity of Permethrin :--Permethrin Information sheet-- --Permethrin MSDS--consider the source. It is widely known to veterinarians that even mild exposure to therapeutic doses of permethrin to cats can be fatal them. There are permethrin pour-on applications (like TopSpot) available at Walmart. Even though they are labled exclusivly for dogs it is not uncommon for a cat to be presented in seizures and respiritoy arrest to a veterinarian, after the owner unwittingly used it on his/her cat. Again my best advice would be to use any of these compounds as sparingly as possible, but don't be afraid to use them with common sense when the benefit may outweaigh the cost. Permethrins have been classified as a class C carcinogen (i.e. they have been shown to cause cancer in mammals, and although no studies have been done in humans they very possibly may also cause cancer in humans). Also, the LC50 is highest via the respiritory route, and in younger or smaller animals.

I am not familiar with the type product that you are using as a clothing toxicant, but I can find out about it if you want to give me the name and mnufacturer.

Basher_boy

[This message was edited by basher_boy on April 25, 2002 at 01:19 PM.]

April 25, 2002

Alright, I suspected that they probably had a "population control by disease" function.

Good choice on the first website by the way - its always a good idea to send material from the University of Florida to a Gator. (The CDCP site was good too.)

4.5k · April 25, 2002

Thanks BB

1. That’s surprising to hear adult Deer ticks area active in winter. I got bit in October by an adult female Deer tick but I thought they go dormant after the first frost. Are you telling me it’s not safe to cache in the winter too?

2. No, Queens isn’t Deer tick country I don’ believe. But there are load of caches in Westchester County just north of NYC where over a third of the ticks carry Lyme. Sorry to hear you had to go through three sets of antibiotics. I guess that’s my point. I enjoy geocaching but when it reaches the point of drudgery that I have to keep checking and then have to worry about antibiotics, it take the luster off of bushwhacking. There’s been a recent post from a guy whose daughter came down with Lyme that caused facial paralysis for a week. Lyme isn’t something to play around with. I just wish there was a sure-fire way to protect ourselves but I realize nothing in life is like that. It’s al about trade-offs.

3. I believe the permetrin I used was Permenone or the other over the counter cans that provide two weeks of protection including two washings. By the way, I found a place that sell Permetrin at 13%. The military uses it in special washing that you can do also. It protects the clothes for 52 weeks and washings.

Thanks for your input.

Alan

April 26, 2002

I read the tick ambush posts a couple of nights ago and got the willies. Today I went geocaching and discovered we have attack ticks also. My geocaching partner, for the day, jumped off of a log to another log and it crumbled under his feet. We both ended up in tall grass with crumbled oak tree on all sides......and a hideout for attack ticks. They seemed to enjoy my light colored clothing more than Doc's. I stopped counting at six and flicked a few off Doc as well. YUCK!!! The ticks are alive and well this year. Luckily I wore a hat.....came home and submerged for over an hour....did a scan and came out with a clean bill of health. My question is this???? Light colored clothing or dark colored clothing???? Does it make a difference??? Gotta go scratch

4.5k · April 27, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by McIrish:
... My question is this???? Light colored clothing or dark colored clothing???? Does it make a difference??? Gotta go scratch

Maybe Doc had as many as you but you could see them better on your light colored clothes. Just reading you your post makes me feel itchy all over! Aarrgh!

Alan

April 29, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by McIrish:
My question is this???? Light colored clothing or dark colored clothing???? Does it make a difference??? Gotta go scratch

I've never heard of ticks having a preference, but light colored clothing certainly makes them easier to spot once they have grabbed onto your clothes. Of course, ticks in the larva stage appear to be pretty light-colored themselves...

April 29, 2002

quote:
It is widely known to veterinarians that even mild exposure to therapeutic doses of permethrin to cats can be fatal them.

BB, thanks for your great posts. They are very informative, especially to those of us who are only now rediscovering the great outdoors after too many years inside. I don't know that I have ever had an encounter with a tick. However, after a quick search of the web, I discovered that they are here in Texas, too.

One quick question. I noticed your comment about the toxicity of permethrins to cats. If we use permethrins on our clothing, does that level of exposure present a threat to our cats?

Alchemist2000

April 29, 2002

Light or Dark?

I had to research this one. There is some anecdotal research that ticks are probably more attracted to dark colors. I did a search on the AGRICOLA database, and several studies have been done that studied the best ways to attract ticks for research purposes. Tick traps are dark in color, with pheromones, and CO2 generators.

Many outdoog sites suggest the use of light colored clothing as a way to facilitate the identification and removal of ticks.

Incidentally a paper described the ability of orally ingested B1 vitamins as a tick repellant.

As far as permethrin toxicosis in cats: It is really not so much a question of toxicosis or not, but rather a question of degree. So although I would not anticipate any problems with your cat and your sprayed clothing, I would not rub his/her face in the clothes, and would keep him from contacting permethrins however I am able. Especially if there is no reason for him/her to come in contact with it. I am sure the concentrations are much lower then what is traditionally lethal to cats.

basher_boy

April 29, 2002

Thanks basher_boy for doing the research. I would like to avoid further ambush by the dreaded ticks around here. I will continue with the light clothes theory!!!

Ever beenambushed by ticks?

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