Descriptions in GPSr

[osa123]

Hi,

I wonder can someone explain me why Groundspeak add paperless geocache to Premium Membership?

As I read the idea of Premium was to: secure caches from vandalism (too easy access to information without

Premium) and many software solutions helpful for users (eg. great Pocket Queries). I think these are worth paying

and can agree with philosophy of geocaching game. Groundspeak provide software solutions - you can choose if it's worth paying.

But paying for paperless geocache have, in my opinion, three logic errors:

1. Paperless geocache is provided by software and hardware made not by Groundspeak, I pay for it when buiyng my

GPSr.

2. Paying for paperless is artificial obstacle for access to descriptions wrote for free! by geocache members!

It is something I can have in few seconds in my smartphone or tablet, so why making these free informations paid in GPSr?

3. The philosophy of geocache game is to keep enviroment clean (eg. CITO) this of course is against this

fundamental (for me) principle.

 

As I wrote, Premium Membership is good idea, but I think making paperless part of it only can frustrate new members

of this beautiful game.

[+niraD]

Well, yes, technically, paperless geocaching is not a feature of premium membership: it's a feature of your device. I was doing paperless geocaching before I was a premium member, before I owned a GPS receiver. I copied geocache data into the text memos of my Palm PDA, and recorded notes about my finds in the text memos of my Palm PDA.

 

"Look, Ma! No paper!"

 

But premium membership provides tools that make it a lot easier to go paperless with modern GPS devices. That's what the bullet item for "Go Paperless" means in the list of premium membership features.

[osa123]

But premium membership provides tools that make it a lot easier to go paperless with modern GPS devices.

 

That's the key. Premium membership does not provide tools because it only writes in the gpx file text description of cache which is available on site.

The tool that make it easier is in GPSr. If you have older GPSr you cannot use it no matter what tool PM provide.

 

Rest of Premium advantages refers to staff with geocaching site as a datebase (thats how it should be). Only this one disables something that is a ordinary option in my GPSr (Description in GPSr reminds me evily: You are not PM)

Edited August 30, 2013 by osa123

[+nittany dave]

Premium membership allows you to download hundreds of caches at a time, thousands in a single day. That "tool" makes it a lot easier to get the cache data into a gps or other device that supports paperless caching. So in my opinion, premium membership does provide a tool that makes paperless caching easier.

How else can you get that data from so many cache pages onto a device so easily?

So no, it does not enable paperless caching, but it sure makes it a lot easier and for me using gsak, a lot more seamless.

[osa123]

Premium membership allows you to download hundreds of caches at a time, thousands in a single day. That "tool" makes it a lot easier to get the cache data into a gps

Yes, and as I wrote these kind of 'tools' (and others operations on cache datebase) I can understand. But my 'logic errors' refers to situation that as no Premium I cannot download any single one cache with descriptions to my GPSr ('manually'). And I think it's contradiction because... (1,2,3).

[+nittany dave]

Ok, I guess I just don't understand the point you're trying to make or your logic errors.

1) We agree that Groundspeak doesn't enable paperless caching, they just make it a lot easier with PQs and API access.

2) Yes, the descriptions are provided for free by cache owners, but you can access them for free online. You just can't access a lot of them easily as a basic member. So again, PM makes it easier to go paperless.

I don't understand 3

 

I really think that PM does help to facilitate paperless caching, but it's all good. I pay for a PM because of that and other things but you don't have to if you don't find any benefit to PM.

[jholly]

Ok, I guess I just don't understand the point you're trying to make or your logic errors.

1) We agree that Groundspeak doesn't enable paperless caching, they just make it a lot easier with PQs and API access.

2) Yes, the descriptions are provided for free by cache owners, but you can access them for free online. You just can't access a lot of them easily as a basic member. So again, PM makes it easier to go paperless.

I don't understand 3

 

I really think that PM does help to facilitate paperless caching, but it's all good. I pay for a PM because of that and other things but you don't have to if you don't find any benefit to PM.

The point osa123 is making is that he wants the premium member benefits for free. Number 3 is that if he gets premium member benefits for free he does not have to print out the cache descriptions and hints to take with him. Makes perfect sense to me, unfortunately it does not work that way. So he is asking GS to provide that info for free.

[+T.D.M.22]

So because it is actually a feature of the GPS, you shouldn't have to pay Groundspeak to use it? By that logic, since I can download caches to my GPS as a premium member, I shouldn't have to purchase a GPS.

 

Or Since I already paid for my car, I shouldn't have to pay to use a tollroad.

 

It's just part of the perks for giving these people jobs. You could always pay the $30 a year. Or you could use a cellphone to read cache descriptions. Or you could print out the cache pages.

[+CanadianRockies]

But my 'logic errors' refers to situation that as no Premium I cannot download any single one cache with descriptions to my GPSr ('manually').

The "Send to My GPS" button on the cache description page should send paperless information for a single cache to your GPSr, including the description (at least a huge chunk of it). If you want to send information for multiple caches, then you would need to purchase a premium membership.

[osa123]

The point osa123 is making is that he wants the premium member benefits for free. Number 3 is that if he gets premium member benefits for free he does not have to print out the cache descriptions and hints to take with him. Makes perfect sense to me, unfortunately it does not work that way. So he is asking GS to provide that info for free.

What I was wondering is a point in history of geocache when GPSr provides a feature to read descriptions. And in that point Groundspeak made decision to include posibility of using this feature of GPSr paid (include it in PM).

For me LOGIC and honest is that when descriptions are acessible for free in Internet, why make them paid in GPSr? (I am talking about one single cache - not for downloading many defined caches).

As I am writing from beginning, I do not want Premium benefits for free because (as I wrote) Groundspeak software should be in Premium. Also Premium can protect better caches from vandalism, so it's great for cachers.

 

Or Since I already paid for my car, I shouldn't have to pay to use a tollroad.

 

It's just part of the perks for giving these people jobs. You could always pay the $30 a year. Or you could use a cellphone to read cache descriptions. Or you could print out the cache pages.

I thought about that comparison with cars when I was writing first post but to make it true you must say - I bought a car, and made a local road with my neighbours (cache description)- I should not pay for it. I can pay for maps, traffic signs etc. (PQ, statistics, etc. in Premium - because they were made by Groundspeak.)

 

The "Send to My GPS" button on the cache description page should send paperless information for a single cache to your GPSr, including the description (at least a huge chunk of it). If you want to send information for multiple caches, then you would need to purchase a premium membership.

That it should work (my 'logic' dream ), but it does not. "Send to GPS" does not send any description.

[+CanadianRockies]

The "Send to My GPS" button on the cache description page should send paperless information for a single cache to your GPSr, including the description (at least a huge chunk of it). If you want to send information for multiple caches, then you would need to purchase a premium membership.

That it should work (my 'logic' dream ), but it does not. "Send to GPS" does not send any description.

It does on my GPSr. Perhaps your GPSr model doesn't fully support paperless geocaching? If so, then that's something you should take up with your GPSr manufacturer (or purchase a different model).

[osa123]

You can load cause You are Premium

I can load descriptions from other caching sites, so GPSr is ok.

From geocache.com: "GPX files are available for Premium Members and include all of this data as well as the cache description, hints and the 20 most recent logs."

 

I find nice comparison to show 'logic' contradiction:

I am searching cache. I've got my GPSr in right hand and my smartphone in left hand (smartphone has also gps, and I have desciprtion of cache eg. in opened web browser or even in .txt file).

So isn't it artificial obstacle not to allow basic member to have description in GPSr?

I cannot see the point to do that.

[+T.D.M.22]

You can load cause You are Premium

I can load descriptions from other caching sites, so GPSr is ok.

From geocache.com: "GPX files are available for Premium Members and include all of this data as well as the cache description, hints and the 20 most recent logs."

 

I find nice comparison to show 'logic' contradiction:

I am searching cache. I've got my GPSr in right hand and my smartphone in left hand (smartphone has also gps, and I have desciprtion of cache eg. in opened web browser or even in .txt file).

So isn't it artificial obstacle not to allow basic member to have description in GPSr?

I cannot see the point to do that.

 

NO. Because for me that would use up my data-which I pay for, and at a lot more than 30 a year. I suppose if you had unlimited data, or used WIFI and saved it, you could get around not paying for it, but to that point, what's stopping me from brigning a laptop out in the field?

 

Again it's tollroads. You may pay to use the road(Download GPX files), or you may choose to drive around on a backroad, or walk past the tollbooth(Your example)

 

The point is, you're paying for convenience. You are fully able to geocache without paying a cent to Groundspeak. If other caching sites don't make you pay, that's their choice. I'll tell you the probably don't have the staffing that this one does. They won't have as many caches as thing one does. Perhaps they hope that by making this stuff free, they'll attract other users. What they do, or don't do is up to them. If you like what they do, go use the other sites.

 

You have provided a simple way around paying for a PM-well then why don't you do that?

[+GeoTrekker26]

The "Send to My GPS" button on the cache description page should send paperless information for a single cache to your GPSr, including the description (at least a huge chunk of it). If you want to send information for multiple caches, then you would need to purchase a premium membership.

That it should work (my 'logic' dream ), but it does not. "Send to GPS" does not send any description.

It does on my GPSr. Perhaps your GPSr model doesn't fully support paperless geocaching? If so, then that's something you should take up with your GPSr manufacturer (or purchase a different model).

 

CanadianRockies, you are a premium member. Have you tried sending to GPS with a non premium account? It will send basic data but not the short description, the long description or hints. You only get those if you have a premium account. osa123 must find you posts very confusing because you are not giving him correct information. His issue has nothing to do with his GPSr but with the GS account features.

 

osa123, you can use all the rationale you want but it doesn't matter. You can get all the information free (except for premium only caches). You are more than welcome to manually copy the information to your GPS or print it and carry the printout with you. But if you would like to avail yourself of some labor saving tools, and have the web site send the information to the GPS for you, then you need to pay (about $.08/day USD, I understand it is slightly more in Zlotys). It's as simple as that.

 

GS exists to make money. They have a LOT of money invested in hardware and software. They pay a lot to maintain them. Try telling your bank you don't want to pay them any fees for holding and processing YOUR money. GS is providing a service for which they charge a fair fee. If you don't like their policies you are free to go elsewhere. There is no reason for them to give there services away free.

[jholly]

You can load cause You are Premium

I can load descriptions from other caching sites, so GPSr is ok.

From geocache.com: "GPX files are available for Premium Members and include all of this data as well as the cache description, hints and the 20 most recent logs."

 

I find nice comparison to show 'logic' contradiction:

I am searching cache. I've got my GPSr in right hand and my smartphone in left hand (smartphone has also gps, and I have desciprtion of cache eg. in opened web browser or even in .txt file).

So isn't it artificial obstacle not to allow basic member to have description in GPSr?

I cannot see the point to do that.

The logic is if you want the full .gpx file you need to buy a premium membership. Your smartphone has an app you paid for. Of course your smartphone is no good in areas where there is no cell signals and you need the .gpx file data to load on your phone so you can see the descriptions. Either way you pay for the access to the data.

[+captnemo]

Let's see, the cost of the paper and ink and not even considering the cost of the smart phone service would come really close to the $30 cost of a premium membership!

[osa123]

what's stopping me from brigning a laptop out in the field?

 

Again it's tollroads. You may pay to use the road(Download GPX files), or you may choose to drive around on a backroad, or walk past the tollbooth(Your example)

 

The point is, you're paying for convenience. You are fully able to geocache without paying a cent to Groundspeak. If other caching sites don't make you pay, that's their choice.

Nowadays laptop=tablet=smartphone - who doesn't have phone in the field?

For me tolls are on wrong road (because I think this road for the advantage of geocaching should be free, as it is made by all members).

 

You have provided a simple way around paying for a PM-well then why don't you do that?

I do! And this is not "way around".

 

osa123, you can use all the rationale you want but it doesn't matter. You can get all the information free (except for premium only caches). You are more than welcome to manually copy the information to your GPS or print it and carry the printout with you. But if you would like to avail yourself of some labor saving tools, and have the web site send the information to the GPS for you, then you need to pay (about $.08/day USD, I understand it is slightly more in Zlotys). It's as simple as that.

 

GS exists to make money. They have a LOT of money invested in hardware and software. They pay a lot to maintain them. Try telling your bank you don't want to pay them any fees for holding and processing YOUR money. GS is providing a service for which they charge a fair fee. If you don't like their policies you are free to go elsewhere. There is no reason for them to give there services away free.

That is interesting! Maybe because here we have got other philosophy of life

I do not know how it works in US, but in Europe basic bank account are totally free. Why? Because if I earn 1500$, money are on my account for some time, and bank does make operations with it (investing etc.). So in that situation I have some benefit (my money are safe), and bank is making money for their profit. For me, it is similar. I give GS some input for free, and I can expect BASIC features. Description is basic.

I just want You to get the point the thing started. It is obviuos GS want make money - but as a member I am intrested to draw a line between things that are logically so basic (as description) that you shouldn't pay for it. And because this information (description) is for free in my smartphone in my left hand (web browsers are free apps) it should be free in GPSr in my right hand.

 

The logic is if you want the full .gpx file you need to buy a premium membership. Your smartphone has an app you paid for. Of course your smartphone is no good in areas where there is no cell signals and you need the .gpx file data to load on your phone so you can see the descriptions. Either way you pay for the access to the data.

As above. Web browsers and .txt apps are free. If I have opened earlier site (made .txt file) with description I don't need cell signal.

 

Maybe it is a bit idealistic of my nature, but geocache is living because of work of all members. Both type of members - who creates caches. GS makes software and staff (t-shirts, TravelStaff etc.) to make money. They do not need money from descriptions made by users (because few years ago there was no descriptions in GPSr and GS made money for existing). People improve accounts to Premium for another reasons (all that I know). And as show example of CanadianRockies even Premium members can think descriptions in "Send to GPSr" are so basic!

And when I started this adventure I thought: I just started, i am basic, I saw advantages of PQ and statistic, I thought - I will buy it when I got more experience. And then using my GPSr I realized that is has option not only to show caches as waypoint, but also can show descriptions. I send cache from geocache.com and was so astonished to see notice "Recieve more information (...) as a Premium Member". For me description is information as basic as air...

[Clan Riffster]

I give GS some input for free, and I can expect BASIC features. Description is basic.

Basic = GC #, coords, size, cache name, difficulty & terrain.

These are all included in the .loc file basic members can download.

Additional details, such as the description, hint and logs are not basic.

[+K13]

It seems to me there is a misunderstanding in the term basic cache information. Basic cache information is the minimum necessary data to locate a cache. Longitude, Latitude and reference number would be this basic information.

Anything more, like description, size of container, stories of other's experiences, and hints, is extra information. This extra information is not required to find the cache, it just gives you extra data.

[+GeoTrekker26]

 

I just want You to get the point the thing started. It is obviuos GS want make money - but as a member I am intrested to draw a line between things that are logically so basic (as description) that you shouldn't pay for it. And because this information (description) is for free in my smartphone in my left hand (web browsers are free apps) it should be free in GPSr in my right hand.

 

 

You seemed to be deliberately ignoring the salient point. The description is FREE. You have it. Go ahead and type it into the GPS. Do it with as many caches as you want. It's FREE.

 

If you want to use the TOOL that saves you the work, you pay for that. Despite your repeated assertions, you are NOT paying for the work of another cacher, you are paying to use the tool that GS developed that saves you typing. And BTW you do not NEED the description to find a cache. However if you really want them without paying the very nominal fee, start typing.

 

Continued discussion on the subject with someone who has been on the system less than two weeks and found only two caches is pointless. You have the answers to you questions but you obviously don't like them. So be it, GS is going to change because you don't like. I hope you spend the same effort caching that you did on this thread. More importantly, I hope you really enjoy it, it's a fun hobby.

[osa123]

 

You seemed to be deliberately ignoring the salient point. The description is FREE. You have it. Go ahead and type it into the GPS. Do it with as many caches as you want. It's FREE.

 

If you want to use the TOOL that saves you the work, you pay for that. Despite your repeated assertions, you are NOT paying for the work of another cacher, you are paying to use the tool that GS developed that saves you typing. And BTW you do not NEED the description to find a cache. However if you really want them without paying the very nominal fee, start typing.

I do.

Continued discussion on the subject with someone who has been on the system less than two weeks and found only two caches is pointless. You have the answers to you questions but you obviously don't like them. So be it, GS is going to change because you don't like.

Maybe because i'm newbie i have fresh look and i'm trying to understood things which are obvious for You (I'm like a child).

Still, it's not I don' like Your answers - I understand them. It's just NOBODY answers me the first and main question:

"I wonder can someone explain me why Groundspeak add paperless geocache to Premium Membership?" - as a decision made in point of history.

And I have description made myself in GPSr, in my smartphone and even on paper. As I said, this is logic contradiction (to new members). Pocker Querries is a cenvienence tool. A tool was made NOT to add descriptions in GPX files (by 'send to gpsr')- I wonder why.

 

Thank for Your opinions, I just wanted to ask about my doubts.

Last, important for us example. In 2000 US goverment made decision NOT to disturb GPS accuracy. Why? Because giving such basic data was a great stimulation for economy, and what a great gift for all outdoor enthusiast!

And in this point You can wonder - why they DID disturb it earlier? And I found anwers. About GS I don't.

 

I hope you spend the same effort caching that you did on this thread. More importantly, I hope you really enjoy it, it's a fun hobby.

Believe me I do. And as a newbie, I just must decide which branch of caching give my efforts and engagement. Because I think that I've got some new histories and places to show to other people. That's what my concerns are about.

[Pup Patrol]

"I wonder can someone explain me why Groundspeak add paperless geocache to Premium Membership?"

 

Because they wanted to, and they can.

 

If there weren't "perks", why would anyone pay for a PM?

 

On the other hand, we are PM and our gps is not suited to paperless caching.

 

We do just fine.

 

We download the gpx file, and print out vital information in a Notepad file, or if I remember to do it, in an Excel file. I don't print out entire cache pages, because that's a waste of paper, ink and time. I also can save maps to my e-reader.

 

 

B.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Pup Patrol

[+Don_J]

The sense of entitlement is astounding. If you want premium member benefits you need to pay for them. It's really that simple. No amount of discussion or rationalization is going to change that simple fact.

[+niraD]

Check your timeline. Groundspeak offered the ability to create GPX files (as a premium member feature) before there were any GPS receivers that could read GPX files.

 

There was no decision to "add paperless caching as a premium member feature". There was a decision to provide GPX files as a premium member feature. Devices that could use those GPX files for paperless caching came later.

 

And has been pointed out, GPX files aren't needed for paperless caching. They just make it easier.

[+Don_J]

Check your timeline. Groundspeak offered the ability to create GPX files (as a premium member feature) before there were any GPS receivers that could read GPX files.

 

There was no decision to "add paperless caching as a premium member feature". There was a decision to provide GPX files as a premium member feature. Devices that could use those GPX files for paperless caching came later.

 

And has been pointed out, GPX files aren't needed for paperless caching. They just make it easier.

 

I used to hike with my blue Legend in one hand and a cheap Palm Pilot in the other. The PDA served absolutely no other purpose for me. I paid for it, the software to load it and the software that ran on it. There were no paperless GPS units. They were developed to take advantage of the info that Groundspeak put in the GPX file, not the other way around. This is info that they sell by way of a Premium Membership. It is their product. Just because someone pays another company for a device that can read and display it, it does not give them the right to the actual data. If I buy a new TV that gets cable TV, it doesn't mean that I can get cable TV for free. Of course, I expect that this analogy will be lost on the OP just like the others.