Ethics of hiding

[+Emptydish]

I have a question regarding ethical hidding. We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

 

What then of the practice of placing a cache in such a manner that touching iw would appear to be dangerous. In such a case the seeker might discover what may be a cache attached to exposed electrical wiring. Obviously the hider has done nothing danderous, Except the seker does not know this except by trying to touch the wiring to see if it moves. If i get lucky i get a. Found.it! However if i guess wrongly,ii could land in the ER or worse.

 

Comments?

[+kunarion]

What then of the practice of placing a cache in such a manner that touching iw would appear to be dangerous. In such a case the seeker might discover what may be a cache attached to exposed electrical wiring.

Definitely do not guess if exposed wires are OK to touch. If it appears to be dangerous, skip it. Log a DNF like “I couldn't tell if it was safe to poke around in there”. You can skip any cache that is a problem, for any reason. Not just electricity, but even poison ivy, bees, or anything that's especially dangerous to you. It's just common sense.

 

I've built some fake “electrical” hides, and they will not be suitable just anywhere. I won't put them where there is or may be live electricity. It would be, say, a box magnetically held on the back of a sign. Most people may think it's an electrical box, while most cachers will realize there's no way to power an “electrical box” attached to a 1/8” thick sign. That kind of thing. A really good description and hint will help.

 

Cachers do hide things where there's live electrical equipment, and the possible “danger” isn't always the biggest issue. It's the fact that some utility owns that equipment, so most of the time, there can't be any cache there. If the utility company finds it, they'll remove it. At that point, none of the wires are fake.

Edited August 19, 2013 by kunarion

[+Ben0w]

"Family (or kid) friendly" is another good aspect to describe good ethical hides (which has more aspects as respecting others property and such).

 

I wouldn't want my kids to play around with electrical installations just to see if there is a cache. Big no-no.

 

And speaking as a paramedic with some background in electrical engineering, I've seen my share of related accidents (kids and adults). Nothing worth a smiley on a geocaching map. Just don't do it, please.

[GrandPotentate]

"Family (or kid) friendly" is another good aspect to describe good ethical hides (which has more aspects as respecting others property and such).

 

I wouldn't want my kids to play around with electrical installations just to see if there is a cache. Big no-no.

 

And speaking as a paramedic with some background in electrical engineering, I've seen my share of related accidents (kids and adults). Nothing worth a smiley on a geocaching map. Just don't do it, please.

 

No where in the guidelines does it say that the cache must be family friendly, only that the swag should be family friendly. But I absolutely agree that caches disguised as electrical elements should be avoided at all costs, I realize that it is a quick and easy was to make a cache that is camouflaged in plain sight, but it just encourages seekers to try to disassemble real electrical elements in the future. I destroyed a couple of real sprinkler heads in my early caching days because I found a cache early on that was hidden in a fake sprinkler head. As a cache owner, I would not create a similar hide.

[+CanadianRockies]

No where in the guidelines does it say that the cache must be family friendly, only that the swag should be family friendly.

Apparently, it's one of those unwritten guidelines. I had a cache that wasn't published in part because it was deemed to be non-family friendly. Groundspeak appeals said a cache could be denied publication simply because it is considered non-family friendly.

[+Ben0w]

Another unwritten rule says that rules of "ethics" (as well as "morale" and such) often are unwritten.

 

However a lot of people try to write them, what may be the cause to problems regarding ethics or morale, but thats another topic...

[+niraD]

We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

I don't. Given that tenet, there would be few genuine 5-star terrain caches, since without the appropriate skills/equipment, genuine 5-star terrain can be dangerous. For that matter, genuine 4-star terrain can be dangerous to those who are not "experienced outdoor enthusiasts". And genuine 3-star terrain can be dangerous to "small children". And what about caches that require (or encourage) driving a motor vehicle, which is a relatively dangerous activity? And so on.

 

Not that I advocate caches attached to exposed electrical wiring, of course.

[+briansnat]

We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

I don't. Given that tenet, there would be few genuine 5-star terrain caches, since without the appropriate skills/equipment, genuine 5-star terrain can be dangerous. For that matter, genuine 4-star terrain can be dangerous to those who are not "experienced outdoor enthusiasts". And genuine 3-star terrain can be dangerous to "small children". And what about caches that require (or encourage) driving a motor vehicle, which is a relatively dangerous activity? And so on.

 

Not that I advocate caches attached to exposed electrical wiring, of course.

 

I agree it is not a basic tenet. There are many caches that are dangerous for those without the appropriate skills. If someone without the requisite sills attempts those caches it is poor choice that might have unfortunate consequences. That doesn't mean we should stop placing those caches so those with the necessary skills can enjoy them. It's part of why we have this attribute

 

Of course caches should be rated appropriately and any dangers should be apparent to the searchers. And there is a difference between dangerous and dumb. A cache on a cliff face or under 30 feet of water can be dangerous, but a cache hidden among exposed, live wires is dumb.

[+dprovan]

Fake danger is just as bad as real danger. The example I always think of is rat traps: once someone has found a cache in a fake rat trap, they'll be forever opening real rat traps at other locations exposing themselves to the rat poison.

 

Your exposed wire case is even worse since the wires aren't always fake, in my experience.

[+AneMae]

I didn't bother to read the drivel above but how about this for ethics. If I throw my junk out on the side of the road it is litter. If I throw it out and list the coordinates on a website it magically becomes a "game" The fact is that 2 million + caches are essentially 2 million pieces of plastic (or other materials) garbage that would not otherwise be in our natural environment. All for the sake of an online game. Don't even get me started on the geo-trail damage that is being done. How is that ethical for you??

[+fizzymagic]

The fact is that 2 million + caches are essentially 2 million pieces of plastic (or other materials) garbage that would not otherwise be in our natural environment. All for the sake of an online game. Don't even get me started on the geo-trail damage that is being done. How is that ethical for you??

 

You might consider visiting the emergency room to have that foreign body removed.

 

On topic: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate hides when it is as obvious as the example in this thread. Personally, I don't care for fake sprinkler hides, given that they condition cachers to take sprinklers apart. But I am willing to admit that is in a gray area. Fake electrical wires? Not gray at all.

[+T.D.M.22]

I didn't bother to read the drivel above but how about this for ethics. If I throw my junk out on the side of the road it is litter. If I throw it out and list the coordinates on a website it magically becomes a "game" The fact is that 2 million + caches are essentially 2 million pieces of plastic (or other materials) garbage that would not otherwise be in our natural environment. All for the sake of an online game. Don't even get me started on the geo-trail damage that is being done. How is that ethical for you??

 

And yet you contributed by both placing caches, and finding them(therefore encouraging the placement of more caches to find) And how is that damage? What of buildings? When it comes down to it what's the difference between McDonalds and my micro? My micro might get a visit per month and mcdonalds get 10,000? By that logic, since I have never been to a jewelry store I could consider the whole store trash, damage to the environment and such and such.

 

Or what about the damage done by you posting stupid stuff like this?

[+briansnat]

I didn't bother to read the drivel above but how about this for ethics. If I throw my junk out on the side of the road it is litter. If I throw it out and list the coordinates on a website it magically becomes a "game" The fact is that 2 million + caches are essentially 2 million pieces of plastic (or other materials) garbage that would not otherwise be in our natural environment. All for the sake of an online game. Don't even get me started on the geo-trail damage that is being done. How is that ethical for you??

 

The ethics of increased carbon-dioxide emission from cache hunters should also be evaluated. By exerting ourselves during cache hunts our respiration is increased and contributes to global warming. Something to think about.

[Clan Riffster]

I didn't bother to read the drivel...

Speaking of drivel...

Hi AneMae!

[Alvater]

There is a cache nearby that I am a little concerned about. It is placed near electricity. It is well camoed, fitting to its surroundings -> it looks like it is one of the electric devices. Well, if you inspect it closer you see that its wires lead to nowhere and so I originally suspected it could be the cache I'm looking for. I have not logged it yet. I did not dare to open it because I could not be sure if it really was it. Later I read previous logs and it got confirmed.

 

I think camos should not be too good because that can lead into embarrassing or even dangerous errors.

[+Emptydish]

We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

I don't. Given that tenet, there would be few genuine 5-star terrain caches, since without the appropriate skills/equipment, genuine 5-star terrain can be dangerous. For that matter, genuine 4-star terrain can be dangerous to those who are not "experienced outdoor enthusiasts". And genuine 3-star terrain can be dangerous to "small children". And what about caches that require (or encourage) driving a motor vehicle, which is a relatively dangerous activity? And so on.

 

Not that I advocate caches attached to exposed electrical wiring, of course.

Ok then, I am confused (I am a newbie afterall). The tenet to which I am refering is the first item in the geocacher creed. Isnt this a community standard of behavior?

[+The_Incredibles_]

I didn't bother to read the drivel above but how about this for ethics. If I throw my junk out on the side of the road it is litter. If I throw it out and list the coordinates on a website it magically becomes a "game" The fact is that 2 million + caches are essentially 2 million pieces of plastic (or other materials) garbage that would not otherwise be in our natural environment. All for the sake of an online game. Don't even get me started on the geo-trail damage that is being done. How is that ethical for you??

 

The ethics of increased carbon-dioxide emission from cache hunters should also be evaluated. By exerting ourselves during cache hunts our respiration is increased and contributes to global warming. Something to think about.

 

I agree. Breathing is bad for the environment. Don't even get me started on methane.

[4wheelin_fool]

I have a question regarding ethical hidding. We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

 

What then of the practice of placing a cache in such a manner that touching iw would appear to be dangerous. In such a case the seeker might discover what may be a cache attached to exposed electrical wiring. Obviously the hider has done nothing danderous, Except the seker does not know this except by trying to touch the wiring to see if it moves. If i get lucky i get a. Found.it! However if i guess wrongly,ii could land in the ER or worse.

 

Comments?

 

Fake electrical boxes should never be hidden near any wiring. The cacher usually realizes that there is no electricity, so they determine that it is fake. Hiding it among wiring sets a bad precedent which may encourage people to tamper with live equipment.

[+niraD]

We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

I don't. Given that tenet, there would be few genuine 5-star terrain caches, since without the appropriate skills/equipment, genuine 5-star terrain can be dangerous. For that matter, genuine 4-star terrain can be dangerous to those who are not "experienced outdoor enthusiasts". And genuine 3-star terrain can be dangerous to "small children". And what about caches that require (or encourage) driving a motor vehicle, which is a relatively dangerous activity? And so on.

 

Not that I advocate caches attached to exposed electrical wiring, of course.

Ok then, I am confused (I am a newbie afterall). The tenet to which I am refering is the first item in the geocacher creed. Isnt this a community standard of behavior?

[Google to the rescue...]

 

There are a lot of geocachers who are completely unaware of the geocacher's creed. I know that I've never mentioned it when I've introduced people to geocaching.

 

On this specific part of the creed, I think the statement "Not endanger myself or others" is simply too broad. The specific examples qualify this part of the creed, for example: "Minimize inordinate risks." But there's a big difference between "Not endanger myself or others" and "Minimize inordinate risks".

[team tisri]

We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

I don't. Given that tenet, there would be few genuine 5-star terrain caches, since without the appropriate skills/equipment, genuine 5-star terrain can be dangerous. For that matter, genuine 4-star terrain can be dangerous to those who are not "experienced outdoor enthusiasts". And genuine 3-star terrain can be dangerous to "small children". And what about caches that require (or encourage) driving a motor vehicle, which is a relatively dangerous activity? And so on.

 

Not that I advocate caches attached to exposed electrical wiring, of course.

Ok then, I am confused (I am a newbie afterall). The tenet to which I am refering is the first item in the geocacher creed. Isnt this a community standard of behavior?

 

It's silly to say "we're not supposed to endanger ourselves or others" - every time we get in a car we are literally risking our lives and those of the people around us.

 

It's reasonable to say we won't expose people to unexpected risks. If someone attempts a T5 cache that's 100 feet up a tree they have to accept the risk of climbing the tree; if they attempt a scuba cache or a rock climbing cache or a cache in a cave or somewhere it takes a 20-mile hike from the nearest parking over rugged terrain or whatever else they accept the risks of attempting the cache. All these things carry inherent danger that the hider and seekers can freely choose to accept, or they can choose to forego the smiley and not take the risk.

 

Exposing people to danger that isn't reasonably foreseeable is a different matter entirely. Anyone attempting a T5 cache can reasonably be expected to read over the description to get an idea of what awaits them, or at least be aware that it isn't going to be a film pot behind a sign 100 yards from the designated parking.

[team tisri]

We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

I don't. Given that tenet, there would be few genuine 5-star terrain caches, since without the appropriate skills/equipment, genuine 5-star terrain can be dangerous. For that matter, genuine 4-star terrain can be dangerous to those who are not "experienced outdoor enthusiasts". And genuine 3-star terrain can be dangerous to "small children". And what about caches that require (or encourage) driving a motor vehicle, which is a relatively dangerous activity? And so on.

 

Not that I advocate caches attached to exposed electrical wiring, of course.

Ok then, I am confused (I am a newbie afterall). The tenet to which I am refering is the first item in the geocacher creed. Isnt this a community standard of behavior?

[Google to the rescue...]

 

There are a lot of geocachers who are completely unaware of the geocacher's creed. I know that I've never mentioned it when I've introduced people to geocaching.

 

On this specific part of the creed, I think the statement "Not endanger myself or others" is simply too broad. The specific examples qualify this part of the creed, for example: "Minimize inordinate risks." But there's a big difference between "Not endanger myself or others" and "Minimize inordinate risks".

 

I see you beat me to it.

 

It's the difference between managing and mitigating risk, and attempting to eliminate risk.

[+briansnat]

We are not supposed to endanger ourselves or others in either placing or seeking acache.. I accept this tenant as obvious.

I don't. Given that tenet, there would be few genuine 5-star terrain caches, since without the appropriate skills/equipment, genuine 5-star terrain can be dangerous. For that matter, genuine 4-star terrain can be dangerous to those who are not "experienced outdoor enthusiasts". And genuine 3-star terrain can be dangerous to "small children". And what about caches that require (or encourage) driving a motor vehicle, which is a relatively dangerous activity? And so on.

 

Not that I advocate caches attached to exposed electrical wiring, of course.

Ok then, I am confused (I am a newbie afterall). The tenet to which I am refering is the first item in the geocacher creed. Isnt this a community standard of behavior?

 

The geocachers creed was cobbled together by a small group of geocachers who felt we needed one. Though following its tenets is a good idea, the creed has no official standing and is not a community standard. I bet 90 percent of geocacers never heard of it. I always felt the "Not Endanger Myself or Others " thing was poorly worded, but if you read the examples below that statement it explains what they mean more clearly.

[+MI_CO]

Whatever happened to common sense in both hiding and finding caches? Exposed electrical wiring, or on transformer boxes, never a good idea, not only for healthy or young cachers, but especially for someone with a pacemaker or defibrillator! Cache at an extremely busy intersection or highway, don't do it! Cache in a hawthorn tree, nope. Cache 12 feet off the ground...

 

I never hid a cache in a place where I thought someone may get hurt, and I do not hunt caches that are the same.