limiting D/T ratings on Event caches

[+labrat_wr]

Assuredly as I enter this, there will be opinions on both sides of the fence.

 

What I cannot understand is why, other than trying to "get over" on the system, someone would give an event cache high Difficulty and/or Terrain rating.

I have seen several meet and greet type events published with D1/T5 or similar ratings. For what reason would the event be a T5???

 

It would seem that these are being listed for the purpose of getting that coveted 1/5 star on the grid without actually doing something worthy. Maybe that is a purist view but, really, unless the event is on an island somewhere that you need a boat to get to or something similar, how could a meet and greet be anything greater than a 2/2.

 

according to reviewers, they do not review D/T ratings so anything goes. What I would like to see is that when an event is submitted, the highest D/T it could get would be a 2/2 unless the CO appeals to Groundspeak for a higher justified rating.

[+The A-Team]

What I cannot understand is why, other than trying to "get over" on the system, someone would give an event cache high Difficulty and/or Terrain rating.

I have seen several meet and greet type events published with D1/T5 or similar ratings. For what reason would the event be a T5???

...

...unless the event is on an island somewhere that you need a boat to get to or something similar, how could a meet and greet be anything greater than a 2/2.

You answered your own question. An event on an island or at the top of a very-difficult-to-climb mountain could very possibly have a high terrain rating. On the other hand, I can't think of why an event might legitimately have a high difficulty rating. I've never heard of an event that's hard to find.

 

Anyway, why does it matter? Anyone who uses such an event (or any other liar cache) as part of a Fizzy challenge is lying to themselves. If I were getting close to finishing a Fizzy challenge, I'd be checking to make sure my finds for each D/T are legitimate and not ones where the event organizer artificially boosted the ratings. If so, I'll just go out and find another one for that D/T.

[AZcachemeister]

While it seems to make sense on the surface, it is indeed possible to have a T5 event.

 

It might even be possible to have a D5 event if it were necessary to decrypt a puzzle to know where the event was being held...or something similar.

 

Thus a 5/5 event is truly conceivable.

 

Asking the reviewers to 'verify' the D/T ratings before publication would be the only way to handle this, and I doubt any of them would care to attempt to do this. Moreover, attempting to control event ratings would open the door to the necessity to control the ratings of all caches, which would be impossible.

 

EDITED to add:

 

I have actually boycotted events with outrageously whacky ratings.

OTOH I have found a couple of 5/5 liar's caches, but I do have a couple of real 5/5's in there, so they don't bother me too much.

Edited August 8, 2013 by AZcachemeister

[+labrat_wr]

I agree that if the D/T apply for whatever reason, Great! In that case, if the CO justifies the higher rating, the appeal can go through without issue. What I suggested would be to have a maximum allowable D/T rating of say a 2/2 on the submission page. Reviewers would have nothing to do with having to verify a 2/2 event. If the CO appeals directly to Groundspeak to allow the higher ratings and the rating is justified by (whatever conditions apply), then a lackey or appointed person can edit those ratings for the CO. Really, writing that script can't be that difficult to limit D/T by cache type nor the script to allow the edit if the appeal passes.

 

I would also boycott events with outrageous ratings but there are those who condone what is being done and the reason is pretty obvious. I thought liar's caches were no longer allowed. I guess nothing will stop those who wish to find alternate ways of getting what they want.

[+Beach_hut]

I don't agree. You shouldn't presume guilt and have to prove your innocence to GS, it should be the other way around.

 

What I mean to say is, the CO should be free to set the rating as they see fit, and if you think it's wrong, report it. Otherwise, legitimate high D/T events (and there are such things, we went to one earlier this year) would have to involve Groundspeak every time.

[+Don_J]

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. If the people who organize these events are so despicable, why would you want to attend in the first place, and if you are not attending, how in the world does it affect you?

 

It's like all the silly 10 minute flash mob events that are being held this month just so people can get souvenirs. If some guy wants to pretend that standing in the parking lot at work on his coffee break is a geo event, and Groundspeak sanctions it, who am I to care?

 

In both cases, I'd rather it be an event that vaporizes after it's over than an actual mis-rated physical cache that I might just want to go find.

[+niraD]

It might even be possible to have a D5 event if it were necessary to decrypt a puzzle to know where the event was being held...or something similar.

A couple years ago, the organizer of the final event for the annual Venona ACTIVITIES tried to provide the coordinates as a puzzle. That makes perfect sense, given the nature of Venona ACTIVITIES. But the reviewer wouldn't allow it.

 

The only way I can see to get genuinely high difficulty for an event listed on geocaching.com is if you post the coordinates as required, but those who arrive at the coordinates still have to figure out how to get to the event (e.g., discovering a secret trap door). But I am not a reviewer...

[+Dr. House]

I'm in agreement with the OP in large part.

 

I simply cannot think of any reason why any event would require a Difficulty rating greater than 2, and I think even a D2 is being generous. The reasons given about a solving a puzzle to find an event sound intriguing, but it almost seems as though it might exclude potential attendees who are not smart enough to solve the puzzle, so I kinda doubt it would be published if it were too difficult of a puzzle to figure out (if at all). It may have happened before, and I'd be interested in seeing examples of this, but I really have a hard time seeing anything greater than D2 even for some sort of "Puzzle Event".

 

As for terrain, provided it is demonstrable or obvious to the reviewer, I see no reason to limit that rating whatsoever. It seems reasonable to me that a T5 rating for a parking lot, meet & greet style event should raise some red flags during the review process and kicked back to the CO to show exactly how they reach this rating. Same goes for an event that has historically been held in the exact same spot in some park that suddenly after 2 years of a D1 somehow warrants a D rating of anything other than D1. Perhaps TPTB might be concerned about some sort of liability should ratings be limited by the review process, but then I wonder why "assume all risks" is part of the TOU to use this service? Really, that should cover any personal injury legalities that may arise.

 

In my opinion, limiting this to the best of our ability does matter. We already have other guidelines covering the finer points of the game to maintain a certain level of decorum (like signing a logbook to claim a find, or heaven forbid organized group hunt events for example), so this isn't asking for the moon. We draw arbitrary lines on other items covered within placement guidelines, so why not this?

 

Perhaps eliminating the D/T ratings for all events would also suffice as an answer. If the counterpoint to limiting difficulty ratings is going to be "What does it matter?", then eliminate them entirely and merrily get together with likeminded folks at the posted co-ordinates.

[+The_Incredibles_]

There are many people who insist on cheating. All you can do is feel sorry for them. Or perhaps pray for them if you're religious. Because they are too lazy to put in the hard work, their "accomplishments" are meaningless.

Edited August 11, 2013 by The_Incredibles_

[+Beach_hut]

At the end of the day, if per the OP's post, you are going to force GS to get involved on individual cache listings as a matter of course. GS are also going to have to do the development work to implement this. Let's see if they decide to implement it therefore....

 

If the logic for this is eliminating liar's caches, it's illogical that you do this for event caches but not for other sorts of caches with spurious ratings. Do you think that's a good idea?

 

DISCLAIMER: I don't.

[team tisri]

I'm in agreement with the OP in large part.

 

I simply cannot think of any reason why any event would require a Difficulty rating greater than 2, and I think even a D2 is being generous. The reasons given about a solving a puzzle to find an event sound intriguing, but it almost seems as though it might exclude potential attendees who are not smart enough to solve the puzzle, so I kinda doubt it would be published if it were too difficult of a puzzle to figure out (if at all). It may have happened before, and I'd be interested in seeing examples of this, but I really have a hard time seeing anything greater than D2 even for some sort of "Puzzle Event".

 

As for terrain, provided it is demonstrable or obvious to the reviewer, I see no reason to limit that rating whatsoever. It seems reasonable to me that a T5 rating for a parking lot, meet & greet style event should raise some red flags during the review process and kicked back to the CO to show exactly how they reach this rating. Same goes for an event that has historically been held in the exact same spot in some park that suddenly after 2 years of a D1 somehow warrants a D rating of anything other than D1. Perhaps TPTB might be concerned about some sort of liability should ratings be limited by the review process, but then I wonder why "assume all risks" is part of the TOU to use this service? Really, that should cover any personal injury legalities that may arise.

 

So how is the reviewer supposed to know? Last year I attended an event cache at a place known as "the 1000 steps" (so no prizes for guessing what's there or how many of them). The event was a breakfast meeting in the parking area at the foot of the steps, so was rated with a low terrain rating. Had it been at the top of the steps it would have warranted T4 or higher, as it's quite a haul to get to the top. How does the reviewer tell the difference, especially if someone wants to put a high terrain event out there so says it's at the top but really hosts it at the bottom?

 

In my opinion, limiting this to the best of our ability does matter. We already have other guidelines covering the finer points of the game to maintain a certain level of decorum (like signing a logbook to claim a find, or heaven forbid organized group hunt events for example), so this isn't asking for the moon. We draw arbitrary lines on other items covered within placement guidelines, so why not this?

 

Not everybody regards writing on the log as a prerequisite to claiming a find. Personally if I can prove I found the cache and did whatever was obviously required to retrieve/open it then it's a find regardless of whether I happen to have a pen or whether the pen marks the paper. I just use a bit of common sense - I can tell the difference between retrieving a cache and opening it only to find I left my pen behind, and sighting a cache from the ground when it's 50 feet up a tree.

 

Perhaps eliminating the D/T ratings for all events would also suffice as an answer. If the counterpoint to limiting difficulty ratings is going to be "What does it matter?", then eliminate them entirely and merrily get together with likeminded folks at the posted co-ordinates.

 

It would make more sense to get rid of challenge caches and statistics pages. If there's a challenge there's an incentive to cheat. If the only way you can fill the D/T grid and thereby qualify for a challenge cache is to host an event with a spurious D4.5/T3.5 rating the problem is the grid and the challenge - fix those and the incentive to put silly ratings on events disappears.

[+Rapaladude]

I've been to events that definitely deserved a high terrain rating. 5 mile loop around a lake by kayak would seem to fit a 5 terrain maybe 4.5

[+Viajero Perdido]

I host some events that optionally involve alcohol.

 

Sometimes I crank up the terrain rating because I've found the sidewalks a bit steep on the way home.