Mystery Caches and Bogus Coordinates- Etiquette

[rascofam]

Noob here-

Wondering what best practice is when a mystery cache with bogus coords is created.

 

A family friend of ours discovered that the beginning coords to a mystery cache happen to be located nearly at her front door, which is at the end of a private drive on private property.

 

The CO does state at the top of the cache description the following:

"There is no cache at the coordinates above. Those are totally bogus, fake, make believe, untrue! Read below on how to find the correct coordinates." The description then goes on the give directions for finding the REAL cache.

 

Problem is, a few people have apparently not read the cache description and have shown up on this private property looking for a cache. The landowner is a family friend and knew that we geocache so I told her I'd look into it. I don't like the idea of random people wandering around on her property as she is a widow who lives alone.

 

So, what is best practice or good etiquette here? Can someone use bogus coords that are on private property without the landowners permission? It seems to me that maybe the CO should use coords that are on their own front porch instead of someone else's! lol!

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

While you may see this as somebody using bogus coordinates at somebody's front door or porch...

I do not think that the CO (cache owner) intends such.

 

Simply put, they grab a set of coordinates "out of the air". In that they are "fake" or "bogus" there would be no particular reason as to why they should have to check out exactly where those coordinates are.

 

Would it be nice? Sure.

Is it absolutely necessary? No, because they already explained it on the cache page.

 

The problem is not the CO, it is the <insert whatever label you want> folks that fail to read the cache page. The CO has absolute zero control over that... assuming that they are aware of the problem.

----------

 

That said... have you contacted the CO? Have you presented the problem as it exists to him/her? I am pretty sure that they would have honored such a request to change those coordinates.

It doesn't sound as though you have... you probably would have said that (s)he rebuffed you if you had, to really desire bringing it here.

[GrandPotentate]

You can use any coordinates within 2 miles of the final location (with some exceptions). You do not need to seek permission from anyone when picking out these coordinates. I generally try to place my false coordinates in the middle of a farmers field or in a parking lot just so that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

 

I think it would be best to send an email to this CO and request that they change the false coordinates and if you don't get anywhere with that, maybe send an email to your local reviewer to see if there is something that they might be able to do. I realize that the CO clearly states not to go to the posted coords and has done everything possible to make sure people don't, but if people are still going to them and it is a safety concern they may be willing to work with you.

[rascofam]

While you may see this as somebody using bogus coordinates at somebody's front door or porch...

I do not think that the CO (cache owner) intends such.

 

Simply put, they grab a set of coordinates "out of the air". In that they are "fake" or "bogus" there would be no particular reason as to why they should have to check out exactly where those coordinates are.

 

Would it be nice? Sure.

Is it absolutely necessary? No, because they already explained it on the cache page.

 

The problem is not the CO, it is the <insert whatever label you want> folks that fail to read the cache page. The CO has absolute zero control over that... assuming that they are aware of the problem.

----------

 

That said... have you contacted the CO? Have you presented the problem as it exists to him/her? I am pretty sure that they would have honored such a request to change those coordinates.

It doesn't sound as though you have... you probably would have said that (s)he rebuffed you if you had, to really desire bringing it here.

 

I did contact CO- first via email through this site about a month ago, then I contacted CO by leaving a note on the cache's log about a week ago. Haven't heard anything.

[rascofam]

You can use any coordinates within 2 miles of the final location (with some exceptions). You do not need to seek permission from anyone when picking out these coordinates. I generally try to place my false coordinates in the middle of a farmers field or in a parking lot just so that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

 

I think it would be best to send an email to this CO and request that they change the false coordinates and if you don't get anywhere with that, maybe send an email to your local reviewer to see if there is something that they might be able to do. I realize that the CO clearly states not to go to the posted coords and has done everything possible to make sure people don't, but if people are still going to them and it is a safety concern they may be willing to work with you.

 

Hadn't though about contacting a reviewer. I'll wait another week or so and if I don't hear anything back, I'll try that!

Thanks!

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

I did contact CO- first via email through this site about a month ago, then I contacted CO by leaving a note on the cache's log about a week ago. Haven't heard anything.

Yeah, unresponsive CO's are the pits. It happens, sorry to say.

Not much you can do about that, except take it to a reviewer (maybe).

[+CdAGeoGeeks]

I disagree with a couple of the other posts. The CO has to make sure the fake coords don't end up on private property to protect that land owner from others who cannot read.

 

Personally, if the CO isn't responding to your emails, I would log an Needs Archive on the cache myself since it is causing problems. He's going to get a notice that way for sure, and has the chance to fix the issue that they created.

[+niraD]

The CO has to make sure the fake coords don't end up on private property to protect that land owner from others who cannot read.

So, would you also object to bogus coordinates that point to the middle of a freeway, or to the middle of a federal airfield, or to anywhere else where geocachers shouldn't be searching?

 

What about multi-caches that start with a virtual stage (Question to Answer) located somewhere that containers are not allowed, like a wildlife refuge?

[rascofam]

I know it's not the CO's fault- they just 'grabbed' the coordinates. But it pretty much stinks that the landowner has to put up with ding-dongs who don't read the cache description.

Methinks it would make more sense for a CO to avoid just 'grabbing' coordinates, and instead choose coordinates that follow the same rules as a normal cache.

 

Hopefully the CO will respond soon and change the location of the bogus coordinates and this will be a non-issue for my dear fiend!

 

I would just hope that future mystery cache owners might take more care in choosing their beginning coordinates so as not to give geocachers a bad name. It certainly has left a bad taste in this landowner's mouth.

[+CdAGeoGeeks]

The CO has to make sure the fake coords don't end up on private property to protect that land owner from others who cannot read.

So, would you also object to bogus coordinates that point to the middle of a freeway, or to the middle of a federal airfield, or to anywhere else where geocachers shouldn't be searching?

 

What about multi-caches that start with a virtual stage (Question to Answer) located somewhere that containers are not allowed, like a wildlife refuge?

 

No, I wouldn't object to coords in those cases. Nor to the center of a lake or in the woods. Private property owners are not being infringed upon there. If the cacher decides to hunt for a cache in the middle of the freeway, I do think it's on them.

 

If someone put fake coords that lead to my door, you bet your buns I am reporting it as Needs Archived. And let's make it more interesting - does putting fake coords into private property make you liable if someone went there and got shot? Yay! I love "Stand your ground" laws.

[rascofam]

You can use any coordinates within 2 miles of the final location (with some exceptions). You do not need to seek permission from anyone when picking out these coordinates. I generally try to place my false coordinates in the middle of a farmers field or in a parking lot just so that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

 

I think it would be best to send an email to this CO and request that they change the false coordinates and if you don't get anywhere with that, maybe send an email to your local reviewer to see if there is something that they might be able to do. I realize that the CO clearly states not to go to the posted coords and has done everything possible to make sure people don't, but if people are still going to them and it is a safety concern they may be willing to work with you.

 

Hadn't though about contacting a reviewer. I'll wait another week or so and if I don't hear anything back, I'll try that!

Thanks!

Just out of curiosity though- why don't mystery coordinates have to follow the same rules as a normal cache? I'm assuming the final location does, why not the starting location?

[+Harry Dolphin]

Most of my starting locations for mystery caches are parking lots, or trail heads. (Except for my attempt at GeoArt which are in the middle of the Hudson River.) But I do have two where the starting coords are part of the mystery. One is in someone's front year. I have never heard of anyone checking the front lawn... And that's been there eight years.

But if the CO does not respond, then the Reviewer will probably archive it. Groundspeak works very hard to keep property owners happy.

[+Kacher82]

There maybe aren't rules about this, but it is a good idea to see where the bogus coords are. The mystery cache I've hidden has the posted coords in the middle of an intersection, mainly so people aren't tempted to look there.

[kanchan]

Are such issues that common? I think it's just more than good enough if the posted coordinates would be updated when there's an issue in rare occasion in which such issues arise.

 

As a solver, when the posted coordinates don't look like dummy ones, I would consider a possibility that they might point to a hint or the theme (which I still don't need to visit). So, I tend to just use a set of coordinates that has no fraction so that people will no there's nothing there, unless I'd like to point a specific establishment as a part of the puzzle.

[jholly]

You can use any coordinates within 2 miles of the final location (with some exceptions). You do not need to seek permission from anyone when picking out these coordinates. I generally try to place my false coordinates in the middle of a farmers field or in a parking lot just so that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

 

I think it would be best to send an email to this CO and request that they change the false coordinates and if you don't get anywhere with that, maybe send an email to your local reviewer to see if there is something that they might be able to do. I realize that the CO clearly states not to go to the posted coords and has done everything possible to make sure people don't, but if people are still going to them and it is a safety concern they may be willing to work with you.

 

Hadn't though about contacting a reviewer. I'll wait another week or so and if I don't hear anything back, I'll try that!

Thanks!

If the CO is unresponsive you can contact the reviewer with a needs archive log. I would state the bogus coordinates are on private property, by the front door and cachers are disturbing the the property owners. Either the CO will respond or the reviewer will.

[jholly]

You can use any coordinates within 2 miles of the final location (with some exceptions). You do not need to seek permission from anyone when picking out these coordinates. I generally try to place my false coordinates in the middle of a farmers field or in a parking lot just so that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

 

I think it would be best to send an email to this CO and request that they change the false coordinates and if you don't get anywhere with that, maybe send an email to your local reviewer to see if there is something that they might be able to do. I realize that the CO clearly states not to go to the posted coords and has done everything possible to make sure people don't, but if people are still going to them and it is a safety concern they may be willing to work with you.

 

Hadn't though about contacting a reviewer. I'll wait another week or so and if I don't hear anything back, I'll try that!

Thanks!

Just out of curiosity though- why don't mystery coordinates have to follow the same rules as a normal cache? I'm assuming the final location does, why not the starting location?

Mystery caches have no "starting" coordinate like a multi. The listed coordinates are there simply to fulfill the need for a listing "location. Bear in mind the listed coordinates are for all practical purposes virtual. The final, since it is a physical cache does need to follow the proximity guidelines.

[+L0ne.R]

The CO has to make sure the fake coords don't end up on private property to protect that land owner from others who cannot read.

So, would you also object to bogus coordinates that point to the middle of a freeway, or to the middle of a federal airfield, or to anywhere else where geocachers shouldn't be searching?

 

What about multi-caches that start with a virtual stage (Question to Answer) located somewhere that containers are not allowed, like a wildlife refuge?

 

No, I wouldn't object to coords in those cases. Nor to the center of a lake or in the woods. Private property owners are not being infringed upon there. If the cacher decides to hunt for a cache in the middle of the freeway, I do think it's on them.

 

If someone put fake coords that lead to my door, you bet your buns I am reporting it as Needs Archived. And let's make it more interesting - does putting fake coords into private property make you liable if someone went there and got shot? Yay! I love "Stand your ground" laws.

 

I agree. We know people don't read cache pages a lot of the time.

 

I'm glad the OP brought this to the forums. I'm sure many puzzle/letterbox cache owners had never considered that pulling coordinates out-of-a-hat could cause trouble for some unfortunate home owner.

 

I too would suggest a Needs Archive, since the cache owner hasn't responded. Every cache needs an active owner to handle situations that arise.

[+T.D.M.22]

 

If someone put fake coords that lead to my door, you bet your buns I am reporting it as Needs Archived. And let's make it more interesting - does putting fake coords into private property make you liable if someone went there and got shot? Yay! I love "Stand your ground" laws.

 

I don't think it would be the CO's liability. After all they said not to go there. I believe that all that is needed is to have the information available. Here in Canada you aren't as likely to get shot, but there are still trespassing laws. It could be an open field, and you don't have to have a fence if you have the proper signs at the proper locations. Including all corners, and all entrances such as a path or driveway. It's the responsibility of the person to look for those signs just as it is a cacher's responsibility to read the whole description.

[+Scratch Ankle]

Why wouldn't a CO have liability? It is a known issue as reported here that cachers do not read the page so the warning has limited usefullness in protecting the CO from liability. Also, in this case, the CO has been notified of the problem and has failed to respond which would seem to indicate that a callous attitude and don't care that they caused a problem. Forget the liability part of it since very few, if any of us, are actually lawyers and the lawyers won't agree on the liability question anyway. What is certainly obvious is that Goecaching gets a black eye with the property owner and neighbors and that is something that comes up often in these threads quite often. What is the difference in a traditional cache placed at the front door of this person's house without permission and putting fake coordinates at this person's front door? Same result -- unwanted people showing up on this innocent person's door causing problems -- possible damage to the property, annoyance at having to deal with these people (and some at rather odd hours), and the fear factor and the possible consequences of that. We worry about someone driving a nail into a tree but screw the property owner?

[+yelnuh]

Personally, if I had stated in the description that the published coordinates were bogus, I would then make them point to something VERY geo-typical, such as a light pole at a nearby Wal-Mart. Or better yet, a highway bank covered with rocks the same size as a fake-rock-key-holder. Best way in the world to teach a newbie to read the description.

[rascofam]

CO just responded and changed the coordinates. He didn't sound too happy about it, but they've been changed. He mentioned he could only move them .1 mile, but it put the coordinates across the street from my friend's private drive instead of near her home, so hopefully this will help!

Thanks all for your thoughts and advice on this.

[jholly]

CO just responded and changed the coordinates. He didn't sound too happy about it, but they've been changed. He mentioned he could only move them .1 mile, but it put the coordinates across the street from my friend's private drive instead of near her home, so hopefully this will help!

Thanks all for your thoughts and advice on this.

 

The CO needs to brush up on the guidelines.

For many caches of this type, the listed coordinates are not where the cache is placed. They refer to a nearby waypoint, such as parking. If the listed coordinates are not for the cache location, the true cache location should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3km) away.

 

He has a lot more room thant 0.1 miles. He should move it away from your friends house and be done with it.

[+Cardinal Red]

CO just responded and changed the coordinates. He didn't sound too happy about it, but they've been changed. He mentioned he could only move them .1 mile, but it put the coordinates across the street from my friend's private drive instead of near her home, so hopefully this will help!

Thanks all for your thoughts and advice on this.

He has a lot more room thant 0.1 miles. He should move it away from your friends house and be done with it.

I understood this a bit differently. You are looking at how far apart the fake coords and real coords can be set pre-publication. I think the .1 mile reference here is for how far a CO can move cache coordinates post publication without involving a Reviewer. I have never tried to move fake puzzle coords. Is there no .1 mile restriction for a CO there? I just thought someone would suggest getting the Reviewer involved in the move. Am I confused here?

[+Harry Dolphin]

CO just responded and changed the coordinates. He didn't sound too happy about it, but they've been changed. He mentioned he could only move them .1 mile, but it put the coordinates across the street from my friend's private drive instead of near her home, so hopefully this will help!

Thanks all for your thoughts and advice on this.

He has a lot more room thant 0.1 miles. He should move it away from your friends house and be done with it.

I understood this a bit differently. You are looking at how far apart the fake coords and real coords can be set pre-publication. I think the .1 mile reference here is for how far a CO can move cache coordinates post publication without involving a Reviewer. I have never tried to move fake puzzle coords. Is there no .1 mile restriction for a CO there? I just thought someone would suggest getting the Reviewer involved in the move. Am I confused here?

I had one I needed moved more than .1 mi. It never occurred to me to try it myself. I asked the reviewer, and she was glad to assist me. I would assume that the .1 rule applies to the coords for all caches.

[+Walts Hunting]

I disagree with a couple of the other posts. The CO has to make sure the fake coords don't end up on private property to protect that land owner from others who cannot read.

 

Personally, if the CO isn't responding to your emails, I would log an Needs Archive on the cache myself since it is causing problems. He's going to get a notice that way for sure, and has the chance to fix the issue that they created.

 

My first thought was that.

[+Team Microdot]

I disagree with a couple of the other posts. The CO has to make sure the fake coords don't end up on private property to protect that land owner from others who cannot read.

 

Personally, if the CO isn't responding to your emails, I would log an Needs Archive on the cache myself since it is causing problems. He's going to get a notice that way for sure, and has the chance to fix the issue that they created.

 

My first thought was that.

 

+1

 

The CO should spare the two minutes or less that it takes to minimise any potential negative impact of their fake coordinates by choosing a low impact location for them.

 

In fact I actually assumed everyone already did so - given how little effort it takes - if only for the sake of a quiet life for themselves going forward?

[+Beach_hut]

I appreciate that these things can happen (random co-ords chosen that were on private land), but lets remind ourselves that the CO took reasonable precautions from the get-go to inform cachers the cache wasn't at the listed co-ords. There is only so much lack of comprehension you can legislate for. Sorry, but I think threatening archival and talk of liability when someone else failed to follow their clearly-given instructions is a bit much.

 

I would be interested for a reviewer perspective on this. Is this sort of issue something that happens a lot? Is it something they'd wish to get involved in on anything more than a one-off basis? Or are we going to set some kind of precedent here?

Edited July 25, 2013 by Beach_hut

[+Team Microdot]

I appreciate that these things can happen (random co-ords chosen that were on private land), but lets remind ourselves that the CO took reasonable precautions from the get-go to inform cachers the cache wasn't at the listed co-ords. There is only so much lack of comprehension you can legislate for. Sorry, but I think threatening archival and talk of liability when someone else failed to follow their clearly-given instructions is a bit much.

 

Well let's take look at this from a slightly different perspective...

 

Firstly let's remind ourselves that the CO is fully responsible for the cache listing - including the cache page and all coordinates.

 

Then let's remind ourselves that the OP did politely contact the CO - twice - allowing reasonable time for a response - and the CO eventually responded over a month later.

 

And let's remind ourselves that the OP is just trying to help out a friend so that the friend doesn't suffer strangers searching near the front door of their private house - for a container which isn't even there.

 

Personally I'd have probably posted a Needs Maintenance log straight away, advising anyone reading the page of the situation and hopefully soliciting rapid remedial action by the CO. If there were no response from the CO after a few days I'd have contacted the publishing reviewer or posted a Needs Archived log - because if the CO isn't responding then the only person who can help is the reviewer.

 

All of this rigmarole though is obviously less than ideal - so what simple thing(s) could the CO have done differently to prevent the problem from arising in the first place?

 

As you say - the CO did take some measures to prevent people searching at the fake coordinates, by posting information on the cache page - but was that the best solution? I don't think so - and I'll explain why I think that way.

 

Newbie cachers joining the game tend statistically to exhibit certain behaviours / characteristics:

 

They aren't familiar with the terminology - so probably don't quite understand that some caches are not at the given coordinates.

 

They are probably going to cache close to home to begin with - usually in urban areas which means that they are less likely to find a cache being hidden close to homes unusual or unlikely

 

The are quite likely to be caching with a phone, using an app they are not entirely familiar with - and so might not even see the full cache page details at any point - especially if they log on the phone.

 

Given that it might take this set of cachers a little while to get fully up to speed with the finer aspects of the game - how could the CO ensure, with minimum effort - that this set of cachers - perhaps completely oblivious to all of the above - didn't end up searching around the front door of a private house for a container which wasn't there?

 

Simple - take 2 minutes to make sure the bogus coordinates were nowhere near that front door - or anyone's front door - or in fact anywhere other than a location where searching by ANY cacher would have minimum impact.

 

Which is better? The CO spending two minutes to prevent the problem arising in the first place - or blaming cachers for not reading the cache page while the problem continues, possibly to the point where the cache is disabled or even archived?

 

I know which one makes sense to me

[team tisri]

The CO has to make sure the fake coords don't end up on private property to protect that land owner from others who cannot read.

So, would you also object to bogus coordinates that point to the middle of a freeway, or to the middle of a federal airfield, or to anywhere else where geocachers shouldn't be searching?

 

What about multi-caches that start with a virtual stage (Question to Answer) located somewhere that containers are not allowed, like a wildlife refuge?

 

If the coordinates are somewhere it's obviously not possible to safely (or lawfully) access I'd say there's no problem. If someone sees the coordinates point to the middle of the river, or hundreds of feet inside a military base or some such they need to either re-read the description or earn themselves a Darwin award. If it's a cache rated such that it could conceivably be in the middle of the river then anyone who doesn't read the description of a 5/5 or similar rated cache deserves what comes their way.

 

If the coordinates are somewhere that could conceivably hide a cache then the person with an earlier unit may genuinely not realise they've got the false coordinates of an unsolved puzzle. My old Garmin 60CSx just showed a treasure chest for a cache and if I'd inadvertently left puzzle caches in my pocket queries I would find myself cycling out to find a cache only to realise it was a puzzle when I got there. My PQ processing involved adding a prefix to show the type and size, so I could avoid hunting the cache once I realised what I'd done, but others just downloading a PQ and copying it to their GPS are less likely to have such failsafes.

 

Either way if it's causing concern to a member of the public and they aren't just being silly about it (and if I were an elderly woman living alone I think I'd be quite unhappy at having all sorts of people turning up day and night searching around with lights) it should be moved.

 

ETA: I've seen (and helped set up) caches where the posted coords for a puzzle are either a suggested parking spot, or a gateway to get into the general area where the cache is hidden, or the middle of a very busy motorway interchange so it's abundantly clear you can't get at it, and for one cache if you switch to satellite view on Google maps the coordinates point to a passing boat. If you go there now the chances are you won't find the boat, and just to avoid any doubt the cache isn't on the boat.

Edited July 25, 2013 by team tisri