How do you protect against... SNAKES?!

[4xCharmed]

Ok.. call me a baby.. but yesterday's experience has me a little shaken and scarred for life...

My 4 year old always insists on going geocaching with me... she normally does really well.. takes the long walks well, doesn't complain... she just wants to do whatever mom is doing. When we have to climb up a vertical incline, I'll usually piggy back her up the bank or my 16 year old son sometimes comes along and he'll help get her up too.

Yesterday her and I went after one that required a 3 mile walk along some railroad tracks in the bushes (that was my plan B - instead of walking through chest high grass and bushes in marsh land - we went the long way around) So, on the way back, we were tired, hot (it was 103 yesterday) and a little out of it... kinda just trudging along.. and we came up on this huge snake going across the tracks, assuming to the river on the left. we were probably like 2 ft away til I saw it and at that point it was MAD and it was standing up almost face to face with my 4 year old.. I was already holding her hand.. so I quick flung her off to my right and threw her down this little bank and got ready to pepper spray this snake. I had 3 knives, 2 stun guns and 2 cans of pepper spray in my bag, but since we just got done coming down this steep 20ft bank, I had everything but my phone/gps and 1 can of pepper spray in my hand. It totally caught me off guard because I wasn't expecting to run into anything on the tracks.. I don't know what happened to the angry snake.. in the 2 seconds it took me to throw my daughter, he must have scurried off somewhere (thank god!) and the rest of the trip back was done with her on my shoulders and me double fisting weapons.

 

Clearly, I was NOT prepared. A 4 year old should have never been put in that situation to begin with... she'll stay home from now on unless we're hunting micros in parking lots. When I got home, I read online that you should never run from a snake.. your quick movement will cause it to strike. But, in that moment of desperation, "fight or flight" kicks in. My first instinct was to get my daughter away from it.. then kill it if it tried to come after her. From what I'm understanding, we got extremely lucky that it just went away.

Second, I've lived in PA my whole life and have heard about snakes, but have only ever seen one in the wild once before when I was 6. We did a lot of tromping through high grass and other stuff we couldn't see in and have never (knock on wood) came across a snake yet... I have no clue what kind of snake it even was... it was mostly black.. I think it may have had grey rings near it's tail.. and yellow cat eyes. I have no clue if it was poisonous or just a harmless bush snake.. if she would've gotten bit, they'd have no idea which antivenom to use. Can you pepper spray a snake? Or would it just make them even more agitated? My dad used to carry a BB gun or other type of gun when we'd walk in the woods as kids... As much as I'd love to carry, my lease (for my townhouse - we live in a development) prevents me from owning a weapon. Part 6.25 says "Tenants household or guests shall not display or use any firearms, BB guns, pellet guns, sling shots, or other offensive weapons, such as swords, knives, blow guns, stun guns, sprays etc. on the property" Now, obviously, I don't have to register a stun gun, knife or pepper spray... so they're easier to get around having if I keep them hidden.

How can I better protect myself and kids/company when we're out some place where we could possibly come in contact with a snake? The only other real danger would probably be a bear or stray dog... but I had always assumed my stun guns (one is 8 million volts and the other is 5 million volts) and knives would help... now i'm not feeling so confident :/

What does everyone else do for protection?

Edited July 21, 2013 by 4xCharmed

[+QClan]

Here's a list of poisonous snakes in PA.

 

http://fishandboat.com/anglerboater/2012ab/vol81num1_janfeb/08play04.pdf

 

I'm a little surprised you carry all that around with you. Knives and pepper spray? That's a lot to carry to me, but of course that's your choice.

 

I cache with my dog and toddler and carry nothing. I don't see that you put her in a bad situation or that she can only do lamp post caches. That seems sad to me!

 

It sounds like a black rat snake or black racer. They're big and harmless. He was likely scared too!

 

As far as antivenom, that's the hospital's job. You describe and they treat.

[4xCharmed]

I'm a pretty small person and live in a questionable area - alone with 4 kids... It was once a beautiful area, tucked away in the Appalachian mountains, but once they started building all these state and federal prisons in the county, all the undesirables and drug dealers are gravitating up this way from Philly to be closer to incarcerated family members... 2 winters ago we had a situation that could have been bad, so I decided I needed to protect us some how. I'm sort of wimpy also... I'd never be able to fight someone/something off.

My first impression was that it was black, it was a "black snake" and probably harmless... but some kid who we met at the end of the tracks said that non venomous snakes can't come up off the ground.... ???

I have no clue. I think I'm just feeling really guilty for putting my daughter out there without knowing or educating myself against the dangers. I was always afraid of snakes, but never took the time to learn what they were.

[+Geodalf]

PA does have both rattlesnakes and copperheads. Copperheads can be aggressive. Rattlesnakes will usually only strike when threatened. Most rattlesnake bites from a mature snake are dry bites. A mature rattlesnake usually won't envenomate an animal he can't eat. like you. Baby snakes are another matter. I am an EMT and we had a 2 year old bit by a rattler yesterday here in NM. Luckily it was a dry bite. Still scary trying to get an IV going and flying the kid out on a helicopter.

 

Since snakes are cold blooded they are more active in the day. Be careful where you step and stick your hands. If you are bit just stay calm but not complacent. Try to avoid unnecessary activity. Take a pen and write the time on your skin next to the bite and circle any swelling. Keep the bite lower than heart level. Ice can help. Forget all that cowboy stuff about cutting and sucking. Did you see "City Slickers"?

 

There is a rattlesnake vaccine for dogs. Won't keep them from getting sick, but may keep them from getting dead.

[+QClan]

I'm a pretty small person and live in a questionable area - alone with 4 kids... It was once a beautiful area, tucked away in the Appalachian mountains, but once they started building all these state and federal prisons in the county, all the undesirables and drug dealers are gravitating up this way from Philly to be closer to incarcerated family members... 2 winters ago we had a situation that could have been bad, so I decided I needed to protect us some how. I'm sort of wimpy also... I'd never be able to fight someone/something off.

My first impression was that it was black, it was a "black snake" and probably harmless... but some kid who we met at the end of the tracks said that non venomous snakes can't come up off the ground.... ???

I have no clue. I think I'm just feeling really guilty for putting my daughter out there without knowing or educating myself against the dangers. I was always afraid of snakes, but never took the time to learn what they were.

Kid at the end of the hike is nuts. Ive seen plenty of non venenous coil and rear. When theyre scared they want to look dangerous so you run away.

 

Study the unsafe snakes in your area and you'll feel better. Most snakes can be avoided just by backing up. Lots of bites happen when people try to pick up or kill the snake. You didn't put her in danger, she's okay!

 

I love snakes and am glad this one scrambled away! A note about pepper spray... It can hurt you and your kid too depending on the breeze. I wouldn't risk that. And most bears can be avoided if you back off, no stun gun needed.

[Clan Riffster]

What does everyone else do for protection?

Hi 4xCharmed, sorry you got spooked.

My suggestion would be or you to educate yourself. Knowledge is the greatest tool you can keep in your arsenal. Google is your friend. Search for snakes of Pennsylvania. This will give you a good idea of what's out there. But it's only a starting point, not an end point. Check for local herpetology resources. If you have a local zoo, and they maintain a local snake population, that would be a good place to inquire. Ask them where you could go to receive a strong, basic education on snakes. If you manage all this, you'll walk away knowing that there isn't a single snake in Pennsylvania that requires more than a walking stick to move it aside, if you are unable to go around it.

[+kunarion]

What does everyone else do for protection?

Big wooden staff. I have a heavy sweegum staff, and a much lighter hickory. I usually hike with the light one, but figured the heavy staff might fend off a wild boar. We have those boars, and they're dangerous, huge and aggressive.

 

But whichever staff I select, if I'm in a forest with lots of undergrowth, I'm placing it into the spot where my foot will step next. My intent is that my footsteps and the staff hitting the ground cause the vibrations to warn away snakes. And I use it to prod for the cache box.

 

Snakes can be territorial. As mentioned, some mimic venomous snakes as a defense. Harmless snakes hunt and kill venomous at the risk of their lives. They will do everything possible to avoid you, and it will be rare that you ever catch one off guard like you did.

 

I try to find snakes, and when I do, I hang around and take pictures of it. If you do that (and I guess you won't ), you need to be familiar with snake behavior. As mentioned, it's good to learn anyway.

 

I don't bring mace, knives, stun guns, nor blow guns.

 

 

A copperhead I had pretty much cornered last week before I noticed him, while not paying attention. Pay attention.

Edited July 21, 2013 by kunarion

[+redwoodkestrel]

What does everyone else do for protection?

Hi 4xCharmed, sorry you got spooked.

My suggestion would be or you to educate yourself. Knowledge is the greatest tool you can keep in your arsenal. Google is your friend. Search for snakes of Pennsylvania. This will give you a good idea of what's out there. But it's only a starting point, not an end point. Check for local herpetology resources. If you have a local zoo, and they maintain a local snake population, that would be a good place to inquire. Ask them where you could go to receive a strong, basic education on snakes. If you manage all this, you'll walk away knowing that there isn't a single snake in Pennsylvania that requires more than a walking stick to move it aside, if you are unable to go around it.

 

+1. I'd say the #1 thing to do is learn what sort of snakes are in your area and which you have to be wary of. Here in my area of California I only have the rattlesnake to worry about, so when I see a snake out caching, as long as it's not a rattler, it's actually a pretty cool experience. And I know what to do if I do, in fact, encounter a rattlesnake... and I have encountered quite a few, and have always come away unscathed (the snake too! No weapons needed!), except for a perhaps a pounding heart and a bit of adrenaline coursing through me.

 

Make it an educational experience with your kids - learn the markings and general characteristics of the snakes in your area, and what might once have been a really scary experience could become a really cool nature observation.

 

For a start, this looks like a pretty good resource: PA Herps. Lots of great pictures of the snakes in PA and which counties they've been found in, as well as really good descriptions of adult and juvenile characteristics and appearance.

Edited July 21, 2013 by redwoodkestrel

[+stijnhommes]

@QClan: I can't remember what the exact reason was for the difference, but snakes are venomous, not poisonous. Not that it really matters much when you're facing one, but I want you to have the facts straight.

 

@4xCharmed: Snakes are usually more afraid of you than you are of them. The best thing to do is to leave them alone. Since snakes can strike from any position and very quickly. Moving away is a good thing. Peppering it, would only agitate it more. Don't go caching in shorts if you expect to get into tall grass or other foliage.

[+wimseyguy]

As already mentioned-knowledge is your best defense. That and paying attention to your surroundings, especially in the woods when you are stepping over logs or inspecting crevices and holes. It seems I see a snake monthly when it's warm out, either in my yard or out caching. So far only black rat/racers in the yard, but I've seen copperheads on the trails a few times a year. And we don't have any voles or other rodents tearing up our garden with the snakes around. We live on a full acre in an older wooded neighborhood with a large lake adjacent to my neighbors property. Deer are in the yard often too.

 

Five years ago I was rash and stupid and stuck my hand in a hole without looking or poking with a stick because the GPS pointed at it and it seemed like a decent cache hiding spot. Instead I found an agitated copperhead and got bit on my fingertip. Without a doubt it was the most painful thing I have endured. It hasn't kept me from enjoying the outdoors or caching, but has been a constant reminder to be more aware. When asked at my recent annual physical if I remembered when my last tetanus shot was administered, I could answer to the date and hour.

 

The most important thing you can to to protect your children is educate them, and remind them that they need to look and poke if the cache is not clearly visible to the eye when they find it. And if it's in a hidey hole, it's still a good idea to poke with a stick first. I doubt there are any snakes aggressive enough in NC nor PA to continue an attack when swatted or nudged aside with a big stick.

 

The pic below is what I looked like 48 hours later before a doctor lanced the swollen flesh to help it drain. It took 4 weeks for the bruising and swelling to completely subside, and I still have some minor loss of sensation at the tip of that finger.

 

Edited July 21, 2013 by wimseyguy

[+QClan]

@QClan: I can't remember what the exact reason was for the difference, but snakes are venomous, not poisonous. Not that it really matters much when you're facing one, but I want you to have the facts straight.

 

@4xCharmed: Snakes are usually more afraid of you than you are of them. The best thing to do is to leave them alone. Since snakes can strike from any position and very quickly. Moving away is a good thing. Peppering it, would only agitate it more. Don't go caching in shorts if you expect to get into tall grass or other foliage.

 

Dang, I knew that too. Oops.

[+kunarion]

It took 4 weeks for the bruising and swelling to completely subside, and I still have some minor loss of sensation at the tip of that finger.

Yikes!

[+CanadianRockies]

Clearly, I was NOT prepared. A 4 year old should have never been put in that situation to begin with... she'll stay home from now on unless we're hunting micros in parking lots.

It's hard for kids to learn about the joys (and potential dangers) of the outdoors if they are kept home or limited to parking lots.

 

When I got home, I read online that you should never run from a snake.. your quick movement will cause it to strike.

Correct...sort of. The snake was likely just as scared of you as you were of it. Even if it was venomous, then it still didn't want to waste its venom on non-prey. Quick movements might have caused it to believe you were attacking it. As you saw, though, it might well flee even if it thinks it is being attacked. Generally, snakes really don't want to get into it with humans.

 

From what I'm understanding, we got extremely lucky that it just went away.

Not really. For the reasons mentioned above, few people are bitten by snakes (usually in the hands or arms because they are trying to catch/harass the snakes). Even if you're bitten, the snake usually is non-venomous. Only about 8,000 venomous snakebites occur in the U.S. each year. And even if you're bitten by a venomous snake, you're unlikely to die from the bite. Only about 6 people (on average) die from snakebites in the U.S. each year.

 

You'd have to be extremely unlucky, to die from a snakebite. You're about 9 times more likely to die from being struck by lightening. You're also about 9 times more likely to die from a wasp or bee string. (Yet you rightfully aren't overly worried about those parking lot lampskirts you'll still take your daughter to.)

 

I have no clue what kind of snake it even was... it was mostly black.. I think it may have had grey rings near it's tail.. and yellow cat eyes. I have no clue if it was poisonous or just a harmless bush snake.. if she would've gotten bit, they'd have no idea which antivenom to use.

There are three types of venomous snakes in PA, two of which are rarely seen. The non-rare one (copperhead) is tan/light brown.

 

Can you pepper spray a snake? Or would it just make them even more agitated? My dad used to carry a BB gun or other type of gun when we'd walk in the woods as kids.

If you see a snake that might be venomous, just stop. In all likelyhood, it will slither away. If it is cornered or otherwise refuses to move, then you should slowly back away.

 

As much as I'd love to carry, my lease (for my townhouse - we live in a development) prevents me from owning a weapon. Part 6.25 says "Tenants household or guests shall not display or use any firearms, BB guns, pellet guns, sling shots, or other offensive weapons, such as swords, knives, blow guns, stun guns, sprays etc. on the property" Now, obviously, I don't have to register a stun gun, knife or pepper spray... so they're easier to get around having if I keep them hidden.

Personally, I wouldn't carry a gun to protect myself from snakes (or other wildlife, for that matter). And if your instinct is to panic, then I'd recommend you not carry either, especially with a child around. But my (non-lawyerly) reading of your lease seems to indicate you could own a gun if you want...as long as you don't display it (e.g., in a vehicle gun rack) and don't use it on the development's property. I don't understand why a gun would be any harder to keep hidden (i.e., not displayed) than your stun guns, knives, and pepper sprays.

 

How can I better protect myself and kids/company when we're out some place where we could possibly come in contact with a snake? The only other real danger would probably be a bear or stray dog... but I had always assumed my stun guns (one is 8 million volts and the other is 5 million volts) and knives would help... now i'm not feeling so confident :/

What does everyone else do for protection?

I use education. Learn about likely dangers and what to do in dangerous situations. Teach your kids, too. I've been hiking, camping, and backpacking for over 40 years without carrying any guns, stun guns, or knives to protect myself from the wildlife. I avoid getting into dangerous situations. In those few times where there has been some danger, I've easily extracted myself from it. I'm more concerned about traffic safety and slippery bathtubs than I am about bear or snake attacks.

Edited July 21, 2013 by CanadianRockies

[+QClan]

Clearly, I was NOT prepared. A 4 year old should have never been put in that situation to begin with... she'll stay home from now on unless we're hunting micros in parking lots.

It's hard for kids to learn about the joys (and potential dangers) of the outdoors if they are kept home or limited to parking lots.

 

When I got home, I read online that you should never run from a snake.. your quick movement will cause it to strike.

Correct...sort of. The snake was likely just as scared of you as you were of it. Even if it was venomous, then it still didn't want to waste its venom on non-prey. Quick movements might have caused it to believe you were attacking it. As you saw, though, it might well flee even if it thinks it is being attacked. Generally, snakes really don't want to get into it with humans.

 

From what I'm understanding, we got extremely lucky that it just went away.

Not really. For the reasons mentioned above, few people are bitten by snakes (usually in the hands or arms because they are trying to catch/harass the snakes). Even if you're bitten, the snake usually is non-venomous. Only about 8,000 venomous snakebites occur in the U.S. each year. And even if you're bitten by a venomous snake, you're unlikely to die from the bite. Only about 6 people (on average) die from snakebites in the U.S. each year.

 

You'd have to be extremely unlucky, to die from a snakebite. You're about 9 times more likely to die from being struck by lightening. You're also about 9 times more likely to die from a wasp or bee string. (Yet you rightfully aren't overly worried about those parking lot lampskirts you'll still take your daughter to.)

 

I have no clue what kind of snake it even was... it was mostly black.. I think it may have had grey rings near it's tail.. and yellow cat eyes. I have no clue if it was poisonous or just a harmless bush snake.. if she would've gotten bit, they'd have no idea which antivenom to use.

There are three types of venomous snakes in PA, two of which are rarely seen. The non-rare one (copperhead) is tan/light brown.

 

Can you pepper spray a snake? Or would it just make them even more agitated? My dad used to carry a BB gun or other type of gun when we'd walk in the woods as kids.

If you see a snake that might be venomous, just stop. In all likelyhood, it will slither away. If it is cornered or otherwise refuses to move, then you should slowly back away.

 

As much as I'd love to carry, my lease (for my townhouse - we live in a development) prevents me from owning a weapon. Part 6.25 says "Tenants household or guests shall not display or use any firearms, BB guns, pellet guns, sling shots, or other offensive weapons, such as swords, knives, blow guns, stun guns, sprays etc. on the property" Now, obviously, I don't have to register a stun gun, knife or pepper spray... so they're easier to get around having if I keep them hidden.

Personally, I wouldn't carry a gun to protect myself from snakes (or other wildlife, for that matter). And if your instinct is to panic, then I'd recommend you not carry either, especially with a child around. But my (non-lawyerly) reading of your lease seems to indicate you could own a gun if you want...as long as you don't display it (e.g., in a vehicle gun rack) and don't use it on the development's property. I don't understand why a gun would be any harder to keep hidden (i.e., not displayed) than your stun guns, knives, and pepper sprays.

 

How can I better protect myself and kids/company when we're out some place where we could possibly come in contact with a snake? The only other real danger would probably be a bear or stray dog... but I had always assumed my stun guns (one is 8 million volts and the other is 5 million volts) and knives would help... now i'm not feeling so confident :/

What does everyone else do for protection?

I use education. Learn about likely dangers and what to do in dangerous situations. Teach your kids, too. I've been hiking, camping, and backpacking for over 40 years without carrying any guns, stun guns, or knives to protect myself from the wildlife. I avoid getting into dangerous situations. In those few times where there has been some danger, I've easily extracted myself from it. I'm more concerned about traffic safety and slippery bathtubs than I am about bear or snake attacks.

 

This is a lot of great advice. The best strategy is often to back up and back away and not engage with weapons.

[+KoosKoos]

I'll echo others that education is key. My kids have encountered snakes in the woods since early years (some venomous, most not) and it's never been a problem. Yes, with toddlers, you have to be more careful since they don't always mind the "watch where you're walking or putting your hands" rules.

 

The coloring and size doesn't sound quite right, but the "lifting" up immediately made me think of an eastern hog nose snake (non-venomous). I can remember my first encounter with one as a kid and it was fascinating to watch a snake in Texas standing up like a cobra and hissing at me.

 

Looking at the list of venomous snakes in PA, your description doesn't really sound like you encountered a venomous snake. As you saw, the snake just wanted to get away from you as soon as possible when you walked up on its awesome sunbathing spot. (not that it still isn't a bit unnerving to come across a big snake in the wild)

 

Most "dangers" in the outdoors aren't a problem as long as you're aware of your surroundings. That's pretty much the only protection I take out in the woods with me. Whatever you do, don't make the woods a scary place for your kiddo to fear. Help them learn what's out there and the precautions to take, but don't avoid going out with them.

 

One day, my daughter and I were volunteering for an outdoor day for Big Brothers/Big Sisters and she carried around a tarantula we caught at our house that we were releasing at the nature preserve. Most of the adults were too freaked out to come near it, but the kids agreed with her that it was a cool thing to check out (at least inside the container). No reason to instill fear over their curiosity.

[team tisri]

@QClan: I can't remember what the exact reason was for the difference, but snakes are venomous, not poisonous. Not that it really matters much when you're facing one, but I want you to have the facts straight.

 

AIUI venomous means they will use poison as a weapon whereas poisonous means they are dangerous to eat. So a snake is venomous and deadly nightshare is poisonous.

 

@4xCharmed: Snakes are usually more afraid of you than you are of them. The best thing to do is to leave them alone. Since snakes can strike from any position and very quickly. Moving away is a good thing. Peppering it, would only agitate it more. Don't go caching in shorts if you expect to get into tall grass or other foliage.

 

Generally good to make sure the snake has a means of escape. If you were cornered with no way to get away from a deadly situation you'd probably come out fighting with everything you had in a desperate attempt to stay alive. Chances are a cornered animal will do the same thing.

 

Snakes preparing to strike may rear up and may pull their head back. If they've got their head pulled back so their body is coiled side-to-side it gives them extra range when they strike. If they try and strike from a fully extended position they don't have the same range. Do a search on Google Images for "snake ready to strike" and you'll see what I mean (I won't post pictures here in case they trouble people)

[+Foothills Drifter]

Howdy......

If I am on the trail I am watching a 45 deg angle about 6 to 10 feet in front of me.

If I am in the brush / bush I am watching about 2 to 3 feet in front of me

I have seen MANY! but have never been bitten.

 

Vern / Foothills Drifter...

[4xCharmed]

Thanks for all the replies... makes me feel a LOT better! I normally don't think about these things when I'm out alone.

The finger pic is unreal! I hope I never run into a copperhead! They're the most common... my neighbors seem them in the yard all the time. I've come to many caches in the woods where it's hidden in a log so I carry stick to poke in or i'll try to kick the log over to give anything inside ample time to escape and then put the log back where it was and I try not to use my hands for much of anything.

I can't wait for winter.. I hate being cold, but I think things will be easier when all the snakes and bugs are gone!

[+manicgecko]

I have hunted and caught and transported many snakes, poisonous and non.

 

Best thing to do to avoid snake encounters is to carry a long pole/ walking staff in areas with snakes and thud it on the ground while walking. They hunt, and "see" through vibrations, thuds with the sticks says something big and clumsy is coming this way that might step on me - the snake is hiding or skidaddling. Unless trying to catch the snake or get bit - do not poke it with the stick. Only hunting and threatened snakes bite.

 

As mentioned before - most mature snakes want nothing to do with you. If it is standing up to something bigger than it, it is really looking for an escape. Best thing to do (harder said than done for most people) is to stay calm and slowly back away. Give the snake the chance to flee. I really don't know what pepper spray will do to a snake other than tork it off and maybe make it strike blindly. Best to give it some room and give it a chance to flee.

 

Most immature snake bites occur somewhere around this way. "oh look at that tiny snake! Wouldn't it be cute/cool to capture it? Oh I think it bit me" Now you know the situation -- avoid it.

 

Sticking your hands in holes. All geocachers have to do this at one point. If poisonous snakes are in your area. 1. Bang on the tree, rock, stump, with your big stick - big heavy vibrations. Give whatever is hiding a chance to escape. 2. Shine a bright light into the hole - DO NOT stick your head into the hole to see if anything is in there - if the answer is yes it is probably trying to come out. 3. Listen for movement. IF all sounds clear then cautiously approach the area. If still not sure/scared approach with thick leather gloves. Not saying it will stop a bite all of the time - but it does fairly well most of the time.

 

I have been bitten 3 times by poisonous snakes - each time it was by me doing something to tork off the snake. I have never been bitten by giving it a way out, and I have never had a snake not take a way out once presented.

[+QClan]

Thanks for all the replies... makes me feel a LOT better! I normally don't think about these things when I'm out alone.

The finger pic is unreal! I hope I never run into a copperhead! They're the most common... my neighbors seem them in the yard all the time. I've come to many caches in the woods where it's hidden in a log so I carry stick to poke in or i'll try to kick the log over to give anything inside ample time to escape and then put the log back where it was and I try not to use my hands for much of anything.

I can't wait for winter.. I hate being cold, but I think things will be easier when all the snakes and bugs are gone!

 

Ticks and mosquitoes are more likely hazards for you than snakes. I'd say the woods are safer than parking lots for your daughter as well!

 

Something I keep thinking... You carry all these things to defend yourself, right? Have you taken self defense? That's a good workout and a good way to protect yourself at all times. Plus you don't need to worry you can't get something out of your bag.

 

Pepper spray is as likely to nail you as your target, and 99 percent of the time your best bet is to just disengage wild animals and back away slowly. I'm 28 and been hiking since I could walk, all over the country and in others, and every time I'm surprised by a snake or bear or dog, backing up slowly and calmly has worked.

 

And again, multiple safe snakes will strike or coil or rear up, especially if cornered. There are no snakes in your area that would pursue you. That big snake is home telling his buddies about this short human who he got eye to eye with... AND THERE WAS A BIGGER ONE BEHIND HER!! Snake horror stories.

[+humboldt flier]

I have hunted and caught and transported many snakes, poisonous and non.

 

Best thing to do to avoid snake encounters is to carry a long pole/ walking staff in areas with snakes and thud it on the ground while walking. They hunt, and "see" through vibrations, thuds with the sticks says something big and clumsy is coming this way that might step on me - the snake is hiding or skidaddling. Unless trying to catch the snake or get bit - do not poke it with the stick. Only hunting and threatened snakes bite.

 

As mentioned before - most mature snakes want nothing to do with you. If it is standing up to something bigger than it, it is really looking for an escape. Best thing to do (harder said than done for most people) is to stay calm and slowly back away. Give the snake the chance to flee. I really don't know what pepper spray will do to a snake other than tork it off and maybe make it strike blindly. Best to give it some room and give it a chance to flee.

 

Most immature snake bites occur somewhere around this way. "oh look at that tiny snake! Wouldn't it be cute/cool to capture it? Oh I think it bit me" Now you know the situation -- avoid it.

 

Sticking your hands in holes. All geocachers have to do this at one point. If poisonous snakes are in your area. 1. Bang on the tree, rock, stump, with your big stick - big heavy vibrations. Give whatever is hiding a chance to escape. 2. Shine a bright light into the hole - DO NOT stick your head into the hole to see if anything is in there - if the answer is yes it is probably trying to come out. 3. Listen for movement. IF all sounds clear then cautiously approach the area. If still not sure/scared approach with thick leather gloves. Not saying it will stop a bite all of the time - but it does fairly well most of the time.

 

I have been bitten 3 times by poisonous snakes - each time it was by me doing something to tork off the snake. I have never been bitten by giving it a way out, and I have never had a snake not take a way out once presented.

 

Good info throughout this thread.

 

My snake stick of choice is a re-purposed shovel handle.

 

At times I am a "stick thumper" but I am also known to be a "stick dragger". I Just like to mix up the vibration patterns.

 

When I step off the trail under tree cover I sweep the ground ahead in repeated arcs to give the snakes warning. Yesterday I was in rattle snake country, many hides were beneath oak trees with plenty of fallen leaves ... the ground cover was a near ideal match for the 3 rattlers, great cammo, who beat feet.

[+geodarts]

One of the better moments I had hiking with my daughter was turning the corner of a trail and finding two rattlesnakes standing and staring at each other. One of the scariest moments I had hiking with my dog was when she bolted to the side of a trail, causing me to lose me balance and ending up a foot or two away from a coiled rattlesnake before I could pull her back on leash.

 

I use a hiking stick, will not reach into areas where a snake might be without taking precautions, and have tried to teach my daughter to be respectful of what she finds in the wild without being fearful.

 

I would rather my daughter learn from bring on a trail than search a parking lot. There is a lot of good advice in this thread. I hope that the OP takes a deep breath, read it over, and takes her daughter back on the trail.

[+Chief301]

How do you protect against... SNAKES?

 

I let my friend Indy go first.

 

-Sallah 😊

Edited July 22, 2013 by Chief301

[+ngrrfan]

What does everyone else do for protection?

In the area where I go hiking, I have an agreement with the snakes. In part it reads:

"You (the snake) may startle me but after that initial moment passes you need to go any direction you please except in a direction towards me. If you choose to proceed in a direction towards me you will be putting your body in grave danger."

 

So far the snakes around here have abided by this agreement and we all get along just fine.

[Hosscatt]

Hiking boots that come up a little ways over your ankle would be a good idea too.

[+bflentje]

I've been geocaching for about 7 years and not counting the garter snake encounters, I've only stumbled upon snakes on two occasions (that I am aware of) where I couldn't identify the slithering lizard. Once in Ohio and once in Minnesota. For the record, I've cached Texas, Florida, Colorado, and many other states known for notoriously poisonous snakes.

 

I wish I had my camera for the snake in Ohio as it was red, bronze and tan in color, was actually hooded, hissing and lunging at me. The thing was just sitting in the middle of the trail when my daughter and I walked up. I never did figure out what it was but I am sure it probably wasn't poisonous. I used a long stick and helped the bugger across the trail and went about my business.

 

The snake in MN was just a wee little 3" thing.. I was crawling up a trestle embankment and ran into it face to face. I believe it was either a non-venomous grass or brown snake. Regardless, he took one look at me, turned around, and ran away. Can you blame him?

[team tisri]

Thanks for all the replies... makes me feel a LOT better! I normally don't think about these things when I'm out alone.

The finger pic is unreal! I hope I never run into a copperhead! They're the most common... my neighbors seem them in the yard all the time. I've come to many caches in the woods where it's hidden in a log so I carry stick to poke in or i'll try to kick the log over to give anything inside ample time to escape and then put the log back where it was and I try not to use my hands for much of anything.

I can't wait for winter.. I hate being cold, but I think things will be easier when all the snakes and bugs are gone!

 

A forest ranger I spoke to in PA said copperheads tend to hide in rock piles so you're unlikely to encounter them unless you're looking around rock piles (obviously keep that in mind with caches hidden under rocks!).

 

Rattlesnakes sometimes hide under fallen trees - because rodents use them as passages so they can hide from aerial predators the snakes figure they might as well take advantage of the free food coming through. If I need to step over a fallen tree I usually give it a good kick first.

 

If you make a bit of noise when walking - kick a few stones ahead of you, kick your feet through fallen leaves, walk hard, bang the ground with a walking pole or some such, you give any snakes plenty of warning that something big is coming so they can clear off ahead of time. Then do as foothills drifter suggested and watch the ground a short distance in front of you.

 

I've encounted a few rat snakes while out hiking in PA (one so small I nearly stepped on it, the other about five feet long), and once found the obvious hiding spot for a cache only to lift a small stone and find a garter snake about 12" long coiled up underneath it. It turned out the cache was nearby...

[4xCharmed]

 

Ticks and mosquitoes are more likely hazards for you than snakes. I'd say the woods are safer than parking lots for your daughter as well!

 

Something I keep thinking... You carry all these things to defend yourself, right? Have you taken self defense? That's a good workout and a good way to protect yourself at all times. Plus you don't need to worry you can't get something out of your bag.

 

Pepper spray is as likely to nail you as your target, and 99 percent of the time your best bet is to just disengage wild animals and back away slowly. I'm 28 and been hiking since I could walk, all over the country and in others, and every time I'm surprised by a snake or bear or dog, backing up slowly and calmly has worked.

 

And again, multiple safe snakes will strike or coil or rear up, especially if cornered. There are no snakes in your area that would pursue you. That big snake is home telling his buddies about this short human who he got eye to eye with... AND THERE WAS A BIGGER ONE BEHIND HER!! Snake horror stories.

 

I have, and I also box and kick box at the gym once a week. People are pretty predictable and have weak spots, they don't worry me as much as wild animals do when I'm out. I'm trying to watch as many youtube videos of animal encounters as I can so I can get an idea of how to react and what not to do. I know encounters are rare, but I have that horrible luck.. I'd be like, the 1% who would get attacked by a bear or have some animal try to drag my kid off.

I hope that snake warned all his buddies to stay off the tracks - that made me LOL

I am determined to go back and find that cache. I went through too much for it to be a dnf.

[+LightHouseSeekers]

As much as I'd love to carry, my lease (for my townhouse - we live in a development) prevents me from owning a weapon. Part 6.25 says "Tenants household or guests shall not display or use any firearms, BB guns, pellet guns, sling shots, or other offensive weapons, such as swords, knives, blow guns, stun guns, sprays etc. on the property" Now, obviously, I don't have to register a stun gun, knife or pepper spray... so they're easier to get around having if I keep them hidden.

That language doesn't sound like you can not own any weapons,

they just can't be used or seen by anyone on the property.

[+QClan]

 

Ticks and mosquitoes are more likely hazards for you than snakes. I'd say the woods are safer than parking lots for your daughter as well!

 

Something I keep thinking... You carry all these things to defend yourself, right? Have you taken self defense? That's a good workout and a good way to protect yourself at all times. Plus you don't need to worry you can't get something out of your bag.

 

Pepper spray is as likely to nail you as your target, and 99 percent of the time your best bet is to just disengage wild animals and back away slowly. I'm 28 and been hiking since I could walk, all over the country and in others, and every time I'm surprised by a snake or bear or dog, backing up slowly and calmly has worked.

 

And again, multiple safe snakes will strike or coil or rear up, especially if cornered. There are no snakes in your area that would pursue you. That big snake is home telling his buddies about this short human who he got eye to eye with... AND THERE WAS A BIGGER ONE BEHIND HER!! Snake horror stories.

 

I have, and I also box and kick box at the gym once a week. People are pretty predictable and have weak spots, they don't worry me as much as wild animals do when I'm out. I'm trying to watch as many youtube videos of animal encounters as I can so I can get an idea of how to react and what not to do. I know encounters are rare, but I have that horrible luck.. I'd be like, the 1% who would get attacked by a bear or have some animal try to drag my kid off.

I hope that snake warned all his buddies to stay off the tracks - that made me LOL

I am determined to go back and find that cache. I went through too much for it to be a dnf.

 

Could you talk to some rangers or wild life experts in your area? They may even have injured examples so you could see and handle some of the non scary snakes!

 

Bears, wear a bell on your bag and stay alert. Bear attacks are very rare, much rarer than 1%, so your bad luck shouldn't mess you up too bad. ;-)

 

As for dogs, how are you with dogs in general? Most dogs will run rather than attack. Can you read body language?

[+Harry Dolphin]

Hmm... I must be doing something wrong. I've been geocaching for nine years, and hiking for thirty years. I've met rattlesnakes once, and a copperhead once (sunning herself on the AT in PA.) I've hiked half the AT from NH to VA. It's black bear that worry me! I've met thirty or forty of them so far. (I have their names on file...) Mostly in NJ, but also in Maine, Vermont, Pennsylvania and Virginia. Hi, Ms. Copperhead. Glad you8re enjoying sunning yourself in the middle of the AT. I'll bushwhack around you. Not nearly as easy with bear.

[+T.D.M.22]

Take a lesson from the cowboys....Jeans, Carharts or other decent pants. The key is to keep your legs covered. Now obviously yoga pants will do nothing, the thicker and tougher the better. Plus it keeps the bugs, and scratchy plants off.

 

Again from the cowboys...Boots. Anything that will go above your ankle from bigger hiking shoes to military boots. A good fitting pair of hiking shoes/military boots that fit tight will also provide some ankle support.

 

As for the snakes, I live in rattlesnake country. Never heard of anyone local getting bitten around here. Venomous or not the snake will either hide and run from you or coil and stand. A rattler will start making a lot of sound. Most of the time if you use common sense you'll be fine. Watch for snakes, don't stick your hands in any holes that they may be in, all that fun stuff.

[+dphickey]

LPCs can be just as dangerous, brown recluse and black widow spiders like to hide in cool dark places like lamp post skirts. Teach your daughter and yourself to be aware of you surroundings and nature. Learn what snakes are in your area and which ones are poisonous. I also wonder about your choice to carry knives with you as protection. If you don't know how to defend yourself, you will more than likely have the knife taken away and used against you....

 

Cache with a friend, stay alert, and enjoy nature.

[+jellis]

We encounter rattlers alot here. Many times caching I had to walk around them, chase them out of logs to get a cache, or almost step on them. My recently sighting was a few weeks ago trying to find a cache the new owner replaced in a new location without a hint. I called him up after finding it and while talking to him I looked down and there was a young one not more then a few feet from me and I know I had circled the tree and must have been a lot closer. We believe the reason it was still there was probably it was still early and hadn't warmed up and judging by the middle was still full.

Rattlesnake

 

I carry one of the best tools for rattlers without having to carrying bunch of stuff. A wooden hiking stick. I use it to pound the ground or rocks to let the snake know I am in the area or to get them to tell me where they are by their rattle. Plus you can use it to keep them at a distance, move them out of the way, or poke into places you don't want to stick your hand in first. I am not the kind of person to kill them unless it was absolutely necessary and so far haven't yet.

[+Docrachel]

Ok.. call me a baby.. but yesterday's experience has me a little shaken and scarred for life...

My 4 year old always insists on going geocaching with me... she normally does really well.. takes the long walks well, doesn't complain... she just wants to do whatever mom is doing. When we have to climb up a vertical incline, I'll usually piggy back her up the bank or my 16 year old son sometimes comes along and he'll help get her up too.

Yesterday her and I went after one that required a 3 mile walk along some railroad tracks in the bushes (that was my plan B - instead of walking through chest high grass and bushes in marsh land - we went the long way around) So, on the way back, we were tired, hot (it was 103 yesterday) and a little out of it... kinda just trudging along.. and we came up on this huge snake going across the tracks, assuming to the river on the left. we were probably like 2 ft away til I saw it and at that point it was MAD and it was standing up almost face to face with my 4 year old.. I was already holding her hand.. so I quick flung her off to my right and threw her down this little bank and got ready to pepper spray this snake. I had 3 knives, 2 stun guns and 2 cans of pepper spray in my bag, but since we just got done coming down this steep 20ft bank, I had everything but my phone/gps and 1 can of pepper spray in my hand. It totally caught me off guard because I wasn't expecting to run into anything on the tracks.. I don't know what happened to the angry snake.. in the 2 seconds it took me to throw my daughter, he must have scurried off somewhere (thank god!) and the rest of the trip back was done with her on my shoulders and me double fisting weapons.

 

I don't blame you for carrying knives, pepper spray, etc.... It's better to be prepared then not have anything with you. As a female, I often think about the dangers associated with geocaches hidden in isolated areas. Snakes are definitely a concern, but more so ticks in the Mid-Atlantic region of the U.S. And worst, you never know what human predators and perverts hang around these areas. A lone female with or without kids would be an easy prey. I carry a knife as well, but your post got me thinking that I should also get pepper spray. I may also get a machete; I am wondering if just carrying it on a belt loop would impose some intimidation factor?? And as others have suggested, may get a walking stick also.

 

Clearly, I was NOT prepared. A 4 year old should have never been put in that situation to begin with... she'll stay home from now on unless we're hunting micros in parking lots. When I got home, I read online that you should never run from a snake.. your quick movement will cause it to strike. But, in that moment of desperation, "fight or flight" kicks in. My first instinct was to get my daughter away from it.. then kill it if it tried to come after her. From what I'm understanding, we got extremely lucky that it just went away.

Second, I've lived in PA my whole life and have heard about snakes, but have only ever seen one in the wild once before when I was 6. We did a lot of tromping through high grass and other stuff we couldn't see in and have never (knock on wood) came across a snake yet... I have no clue what kind of snake it even was... it was mostly black.. I think it may have had grey rings near it's tail.. and yellow cat eyes. I have no clue if it was poisonous or just a harmless bush snake.. if she would've gotten bit, they'd have no idea which antivenom to use. Can you pepper spray a snake? Or would it just make them even more agitated? My dad used to carry a BB gun or other type of gun when we'd walk in the woods as kids... As much as I'd love to carry, my lease (for my townhouse - we live in a development) prevents me from owning a weapon. Part 6.25 says "Tenants household or guests shall not display or use any firearms, BB guns, pellet guns, sling shots, or other offensive weapons, such as swords, knives, blow guns, stun guns, sprays etc. on the property" Now, obviously, I don't have to register a stun gun, knife or pepper spray... so they're easier to get around having if I keep them hidden.

How can I better protect myself and kids/company when we're out some place where we could possibly come in contact with a snake? The only other real danger would probably be a bear or stray dog... but I had always assumed my stun guns (one is 8 million volts and the other is 5 million volts) and knives would help... now i'm not feeling so confident :/

What does everyone else do for protection?

[+briansnat]

The best defense is to watch where you are walking if you are in an area known to have venomous snakes. I also like to use two trekking poles. They go out ahead of each step and might draw the attention of the snake away from my legs. Of the venomous snakes in NJ, it's the copperheads that scare me the most because they are well camouflaged and tend to lie still when danger approaches. Rattlesnakes will usually give you a warning, though sometimes it's awfully late.

 

Guns, knives, pepper spray aren't necessarily going to help. If you are not in striking distance, just back away and go around the snake. If you are within striking distance slowly back away until you are out of range then go around it. If you use a gun or knife and miss you'll now have an even more ticked off snake your hands. I don't even know if they are affected by pepper spray.

 

As others mentioned, learn to ID your local snakes, particularly the venomous ones. A hognose snake will coil like a rattlesnake and even shake its tail and deliver a buzzing sound, but they are not venomous. Most snakes just want to get away and don't want a confrontation. Give them that opportunity if you can.

 

And if you are still worried, you can buy snakebite resistant leggings, but they are kind of heavy and not the most comfortable thing to wear in the summer.

[+humboldt flier]

LPCs can be just as dangerous, brown recluse and black widow spiders like to hide in cool dark places like lamp post skirts. Teach your daughter and yourself to be aware of you surroundings and nature. Learn what snakes are in your area and which ones are poisonous. I also wonder about your choice to carry knives with you as protection. If you don't know how to defend yourself, you will more than likely have the knife taken away and used against you....

 

Cache with a friend, stay alert, and enjoy nature.

 

Another "friendly surprise" at this time of the year are bees, yellow jackets, wasps. I am actually more concerned about them than the "Snattle Rakes".

 

There is also the problem of discarded needles.

 

As others have stated, educate yourself, give critters warnings and escape routes, wear gloves as appropriate and truly look before putting your hand into the search area

 

Be safe out there

[+mikemtn]

To me most important is to not cause a kid to be paranoid about snakes. Learn the friendly ones. Go to the zoo or somewhere that will let you handle them. Learn to like them. They are beautiful creatures and necessary for the ecosystem to work.

[+Kryten]

To quote the OP

 

" I had everything but my phone/gps and 1 can of pepper spray in my hand."

 

"Tenants household or guests shall not display or use any firearms, BB guns, pellet guns, sling shots, or other offensive weapons, such as swords, knives, blow guns, stun guns, sprays etc. on the property"

 

Your lease seems to prohibit openly carrying or using the listed items on the property but doesn't seem to prohibit owning or moving such items providing they are not in use or on display. Alternatively if you feel that owning a BB gun would be in breach of your lease surely your pepper spray already falls into the same category . On the firearms issue I think the 2nd amendment might have something to say on the matter.

[+CanadianRockies]

To quote the OP

 

" I had everything but my phone/gps and 1 can of pepper spray in my hand."

 

"Tenants household or guests shall not display or use any firearms, BB guns, pellet guns, sling shots, or other offensive weapons, such as swords, knives, blow guns, stun guns, sprays etc. on the property"

 

Your lease seems to prohibit openly carrying or using the listed items on the property but doesn't seem to prohibit owning or moving such items providing they are not in use or on display. Alternatively if you feel that owning a BB gun would be in breach of your lease surely your pepper spray already falls into the same category . On the firearms issue I think the 2nd amendment might have something to say on the matter.

While I agree with most of what you said, I think your final sentence is rather dubious. The Second Amendment prohibits certain government restrictions on firearms. It doesn't prohibit private landlords from imposing imposing restrictions on firearms on their property. Indeed, the Constitution generally protects private property rights.

[+wimseyguy]

Please don't kill a nice discussion about snake and dangerous critter edumacation by turning it into another 2nd amendment/do you carry when caching thread. We haven't had one of those in a while, start a new one if you must.

[+tallglenn]

What you experienced was terrifying, for sure. Learn from it! Watch EVERY step, from the first one out of the car to the last one in (here's my scary story http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=be9e6116-cf88-4560-9697-0530e3d0774a ). Step ON rocks and logs, not over them. Get yourself some knee-high snake gaiters or snake boots. When I encounter bears or snakes, I reach for my camera, not a weapon. If you decide to carry, take the classes you need to do so legally and practice until you're comfortable. You have a right/duty to protect yourself and your family as a lone female traveler and you don't need to explain yourself to anyone. Cache on!

[+jellis]

not so much "watch your step" look ahead of your step and next to where you walk. As I said let the snakes know you are in the area and they most likely want to get out of your way.

[+CanadianRockies]

My honest advice is to NOT watch your every step. You're outside for a reason. Look up and enjoy the beauty it has to offer, the deer that isn't four feet directly ahead, the birds overhead, and the wildflowers all around you.

 

Sure, stay aware of your surroundings and know how to avoid/escape dangerous situations. But don't be consumed by fear. Don't focus so much on where you're walking that you don't see where you've been.

 

The same goes for bear bells. The vast majority of bells sold at tourist shops aren't nearly loud enough to be heard above the rustle of the breeze, the babbling brook, or a bear munching on berries. But they make hikers think they're safe and don't need to take effective precautions. Meanwhile, the loud bear bells might scare away some bears...along with the elk, deer, mountain sheep, foxes, racoons, and other wildlife that are fun to see.

 

If you're concerned about the health of you and your family, then spend your time and money on things far more dangerous than wildlife. Eat healthier, childproof (and adult-proof) your home, take a good driving course, buy a safer vehicle, quit smoking, avoid climbing ladders, etc.

[+QClan]

I don't recommend watching every step either.

 

Also, about your neighbors saying they see copperheads all the time, I wonder how true that is. To many people any snake is a copperhead or rattler or whatever other dangerous snake that lives nearby.

[+kunarion]

I don't recommend watching every step either.

 

Also, about your neighbors saying they see copperheads all the time, I wonder how true that is. To many people any snake is a copperhead or rattler or whatever other dangerous snake that lives nearby.

+1

 

There are non-venomous water snakes in my local area. You see them basking on rocks as people go tubing past on a popular stream. If the water snakes bite, they roll, and peel skin right off, in long strips. You won't die from that. There are also pythons (previous pets), and those will squeeze, and you will die from that.

 

The venomous are comparatively rare. But it's good to be observant anyway.

Edited July 24, 2013 by kunarion

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Snakes, bears, bees, wasps and spiders along with various sorts of weaponry... good points by many, but a long jaunt down the railroad tracks does bring up another issue...

 

I know it's off-topic, but strangely overlooked here.

[+kunarion]

Snakes, bears, bees, wasps and spiders along with various sorts of weaponry... good points by many, but a long jaunt down the railroad tracks does bring up another issue...

 

I know it's off-topic, but strangely overlooked here.

John Henry. He's got a hammer.

[+fuzziebear3]

Snakes, bears, bees, wasps and spiders along with various sorts of weaponry... good points by many, but a long jaunt down the railroad tracks does bring up another issue...

 

I know it's off-topic, but strangely overlooked here.

 

For the benefit of the discussion, i figured that the railroad tracks were abandoned/no longer in use.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Snakes, bears, bees, wasps and spiders along with various sorts of weaponry... good points by many, but a long jaunt down the railroad tracks does bring up another issue...

 

I know it's off-topic, but strangely overlooked here.

 

For the benefit of the discussion, i figured that the railroad tracks were abandoned/no longer in use.

Yeah, I thought about the abandoned thing too -- until I saw this:

...we came up on this huge snake going across the tracks...

The tracks and property that they are on is owned by somebody. True, decommissioned railways (the right-of-way, not the rails themselves) exist but they are usually parceled off to the contiguous landowners, other land-use organizations or even governmental agencies. Until that point in time, they are still private property. With rails present, one is pretty much forced to concede that the property (and items thereon) are still owned. All rail concerns that I am aware of recover that metal for recycling/sale and to prevent hazard/injury litigation. By-the-by, have you checked the price paid for scrap steel/iron per ton, lately?

 

An encounter with a large snake can be a nerve-rattling incident for many, no doubt. I am glad that things worked out as they did.

I also question whether or not pepper spray would deter a snake. Scales are marvelous things, ya know. That just may be something worth looking into...

I'm pretty sure a blast from a CO₂ fire extinguisher would work just fine, though -- they don't like cold, and it would be terribly confusing for them, to boot.

 

As to the thread title -- Be Aware of Your Surroundings. This applies to bear territory; snake territory; parking lots and alleys; an approaching (or waiting) person; anywhere or anyplace at all.