What is considered the right way?

[TheBrofessor]

Yesterday I happened to meet a local cacher, this lady is probably at least 3 times my age, she has been doing this for a long time now (her word not mine), and after a lengthy conversation I began to asker her a few questions.

 

One of the questions that I asked was what to do when you come across a cache that is in poor condition. She replied that she wasn't sure what to do and she leaved them as she finds them. However she went on to say that this is rather common. Log books being soaked, containers damaged, contents missing.

 

Now because she wasn't able to answer my question I am hoping that you guys will be able to help.

 

If I come across a cache that is damaged or the long book is soaked what is the right way of doing it. Do i just log it as need maintenance or would it be acceptable for me to put in a new log book, dry the contents and generally clean it up as much as I can? Is is ok to change a container if it is broken? Would the owner of the cache be annoyed if you put in a new log book or is that ok?

 

Maybe changing the container is a little too much but most caches that I have found have been wet, should I just place them in a zip lock bag and sent a need maintenance message?

 

Thanks for your help in advance guys.

[+T.D.M.22]

Guess I'll answer. IF it needs a new logbook and I happen to have one with me, then it gets a new one. Now if I happen to know the CO I might do more, up to and including removing the cache if it needs major repairs. The only time I had to do it was because it was damaged and couldn't be opened. I've also had people do this for me as well, when I was 9 hours away for 6 weeks. Karma. OF course I wouldn't do this unless I knew the CO. Otherwise I would just log a NM or NA as appropriate.

 

Now if the cache is in real bad shape, and the CO is inactive, it is usually best to log a NA rather than keep fixing it up. And I said usually, as there are occasionally reasons to keep a cache alive.

Edited July 18, 2013 by T.D.M.22

[+dprovan]

The basic answer is that it's the CO's job to fix problems. You can help out, but ask yourself why you are helping, not why you aren't helping. Many times fixing things up is just fine, but in some cases a cache is broken because the CO's not taking care of it, and if that's the case, it's normally better to let it die peacefully.

 

Always mention the problem and what you did, if anything, in your log. If the problem warrants it, file a Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived log in addition to your Found log.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

My answer: Minor or temporary fixes, fine. Major fixes, the CO.

 

If the CO is lackadaisical or non-responsive to the issues, then the cache deserves archiving. Perhaps the next CO will be more responsive.

[+Seaglass Pirates]

Edit - replied on wrong thread. Fat fingers and touchscreens do not mix.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Seaglass Pirates

[+mellers]

If I come across a cache that is damaged or the long book is soaked what is the right way of doing it. Do i just log it as need maintenance or would it be acceptable for me to put in a new log book, dry the contents and generally clean it up as much as I can? ...

Is is ok to change a container if it is broken? Would the owner of the cache be annoyed if you put in a new log book or is that ok? Maybe changing the container is a little too much but most caches that I have found have been wet, should I just place them in a zip lock bag and sent a need maintenance message?

These questions will become easier for your to answer as you get to know your local COs. What one CO will find acceptable another will be annoyed at. As far as the RULES of the game are concerned, maintaining a cache is the CO's responsibility and you shouldn't routinely and always replace logs and caches you find which need maintenance. What you should always do as a finder of a cache in need or repair, is post a "needs maintenance" log with as much (non-spoiler) detail as you think the CO will need to get out and sort the problem.

 

However, there is an unwritten "NON rule" that we all help each other where we can which is when it is SOMETIMES acceptable to replace a damp log and replace a damaged container. However, when you can do this varies from CO to CO. I've read stories of CO's taking the hump when a kindly soul takes out an old damp log and puts in a new one, as the log of course, is the only real proof that someone has visited a cache. If it's a rare D/T rating or difficult puzzle then removing that proof could get you in to trouble with someone who is making sure people aren't cheating.

 

The best thing to do is read on-line logs before you go. If you spot a cache you're intending to visit is in need of maintenance, ASK the CO first before you visit. 9 times out of 10 they will be only to happy to have your help, but it's the getting permission from them first which will cover you if they are the 'stickler' sort. In 4 years of caching, I've probably done that 20 or more times! If you haven't been able to get and answer out of them and they are OBVIOUSLY not playing the game any more (no visits to the site for months, no finds for months) then I think you can safely maintain the cache yourself to any degree without getting in to trouble. That includes replacing logs and containers - I've done that a few times!

 

If you haven't been able to do that prep work in advance, you also have another alternative. Replace a damp or soggy log and then post in your on-line 'found it' note that you have done so. Offer to keep the old log (after drying it out) for two weeks and invite the CO to contact you if they want it back. I've done this probably less than a dozen times and offered the "return" service in each case. Only 3 COs have ever taken me up on it, but the fact that they HAVE leads me to believe it was the right thing to do in each case.

 

Only ever replace a container with the CO's permission unless you know them well. For a container you replace, you MUST be sure it has indeed gone missing and isn't just well-hidden. I've done it a dozen or so times with the CO's advance permission and you wouldn't believe how grateful they were! I've only ever done it once without permission and was bricking it in case they weren't happy. The situation was that there wasn't time to contact them before a large event in the area when two cachers had reported the area muggled the night before and which I saw only 30 mins before leaving home. I knew lots of cachers would be attempting the find that day. When I got to GZ, it was clear the original cache had been muggled as bits of it were strewn around. I was honest about my "throwdown" (as it's called) and offered to delete my "found it" log if the CO wasn't happy. I also explained why there wasn't time to contact them in advance. I wouldn't recommend routinely replacing a container without prior permission, though.

 

As far as cleaning a container is concerned, always do that routinely if you can. I try to. There's no bother in doing it and it's a courtesy to the CO. Always tip out any accumulated debris anyway and get in the habit of carrying some tissue to wipe a damp or dirty inside of a box. If the inside of the box was particularly bad I might even mention the spruce up in my log, so the CO knows it isn't necessary for them to visit and do it!

 

I'm sorry if the above has to cover lots of scenarios, but it's as well to be prepared. Ask in advance where you can, and cover your back by offering to return anything you take if you can't.

[+Mallah]

6 of one half a dozen of the other I think. I'm not in the habit of taking spar logs and containers out with me, others I have cached with have though. So I tend to log it and put a NM on it which can either get the CO out or sometimes the next finder will notice it needs a new LB and make sure they have something to place in it next time.

There are however plenty of caches out there which have been essentially abandoned buy their owners but have continued to carry on as a result of cachers maintaining them - Mainly because they are very good caches or a decent series such as Jonah's Journey GCJA3V who's owner hasn't logged on since 27 Dec 2011, and there are a couple of series around Stoney Middleton of a similar state.

The suggested route is to simply log a NM, however many people are prepared to do a bit of minor maintenance for the owner now and again, posibly with those that are a bit more remote than others perhaps.

[TheBrofessor]

Thanks for your advice guys, i don't wanna try and help but in fact upset the CO in the process.

 

As I see from your posts it largely depends on the CO. Il see what my local COs say if I ever come across an issue like this again.

 

Thanks once again

[+zarbi&zarbibird]

Just my two pennys worth. If the log is sodden, I put it in a sealed plastic bag, wipe out the box and put in a new log book in a plastic bag, leaving the old one in there. Then the CO can not complain as they could come and get the old log. I always think of the next cacher coming by, who may not carry a first aid caching kit and who would want to sign the log book. I have only ever replaced a container when it was a split film canister, which I replaced with a whole film canister. I also carry a bag of swapsies and usually put something in a large enough cache regardless of whether I take anything out. It is just consideration for the next cacher, especially if they have children.

P.S. We only cache together, have rarely been to events and therefore do not know other COs.

Chrissy (zarbibird)

Edited July 21, 2013 by zarbi&zarbibird

[+Shanghai Joe]

Here in the US, where I've been exiled for a few months, it seems to be a little different to the UK. Out here some cachers routinely carry a replacement pot or 3, complete with log. They will use this to replace a missing cache generally after consulting the CO or someone who has found it in the past. It is also common to replace a sodden log, particularly on the long power trails that exist out here. I've done it myself, but I always keep the log and alert the CO either in my found it log or by email in case they want to retain it.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Mellers has written an excellent guideline above, but I'd agree that the best thing to do with a sodden log is to add a new log sheet and seal the wet one in a plastic bag and put it back in the container (mentioning this in your online log). Then the CO is alerted and can sort it out, but in the meantime people can continue logging the cache.

 

I'd also emphasise that you should almost never replace a missing container. The only time you might is when the contents (at least the log book) are found but there's no sign of the actual container. Even if you can't be sure that it's in the correct spot, this protects the contents. In this case I'd log a "find" if the log book was still signable.

 

If there's simply no sign of anything, then I'd NEVER place a new cache: that's a big no-no in caching. It's happened, of course, and can lead to two containers being in place and a lot of confusion. In fact it's often the CO who places a duplicate, because he knows where he put the original and when it's not there he fails to check the area around (where a confused finder has replaced the cache in error).

 

There are some cache owners (mostly in foreign lands) that allow "throwdowns", but it's not generally regarded as a genuine "find" (why would it be?).

[+Seaglass Pirates]

Mellers has written an excellent guideline above, but I'd agree that the best thing to do with a sodden log is to add a new log sheet and seal the wet one in a plastic bag and put it back in the container (mentioning this in your online log). Then the CO is alerted and can sort it out, but in the meantime people can continue logging the cache.

 

I'd also emphasise that you should almost never replace a missing container. The only time you might is when the contents (at least the log book) are found but there's no sign of the actual container. Even if you can't be sure that it's in the correct spot, this protects the contents. In this case I'd log a "find" if the log book was still signable.

 

If there's simply no sign of anything, then I'd NEVER place a new cache: that's a big no-no in caching. It's happened, of course, and can lead to two containers being in place and a lot of confusion. In fact it's often the CO who places a duplicate, because he knows where he put the original and when it's not there he fails to check the area around (where a confused finder has replaced the cache in error).

 

There are some cache owners (mostly in foreign lands) that allow "throwdowns", but it's not generally regarded as a genuine "find" (why would it be?).

 

We have have seen this a few times over the past few months. Here is an example of how unhelpful it can be to the cache owner. This was not found by a caching team and so they assumed missing and replaced it (although its not totally clear what had happened, we know both parties so were able to find out the circumstances), some found the replacement which went missing ... its just caused bad feeling all round. It was a well hidden snail micro which was replaced with a small to regular pot. But the well hidden snail micro was still there. But the replacement was found by our friends. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=98e2c4f2-b2a2-4023-b7df-5369983bbdcd

 

And here is another we remember. This was a small replaced with a micro instead of being reported missing.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GCT60G

 

It was initially replaced inside the remnants of the proper cache but when we got there it was just a micro. But no longer a small. And we have seen this on a few logs.

 

We have had a log deleted for this very reason. Found a container with a log with loads of signatures in. Found before we even had time to look at the GPS. It beeped as we arrived and we saw the obvious hide under sticks. No need to consult the GPS other than to log a find. Get home. Logged cache - log deleted as we had not found the very well hidden nano, replaced with a micro as that was all the person had. they could not find it and decided it was missing and ... well its self explanatory.

[+Amberel]

If there's simply no sign of anything, then I'd NEVER place a new cache: that's a big no-no in caching. It's happened, of course, and can lead to two containers being in place and a lot of confusion.

 

There are some cache owners (mostly in foreign lands) that allow "throwdowns", but it's not generally regarded as a genuine "find" (why would it be?).

It's happened to me, twice. Cachers with a high number of finds decided if they couldn't find it, it must not be there, "replaced" it with an inferior cache, causing confusion to subsequent finders and an extra maintenance trip for me to remove the duplicate.

 

In one case the finder directly after the "throwdowner" found the original and replacement caches actually touching each other!

 

Rgds, Andy

Edited July 24, 2013 by Amberel

[+metal-bijou]

Definately personal preference of the CO and it's their responsitbility to maintain.

 

I was grateful to receive a find it log from a cacher today who placed a new log for me. Yet I've been astonished at others who have thrown down a cache only for the original to be found shortly afterwards by another cacher. They had even phoned the CO at the time and she diodn't want it replaced as she was only 10 minutes away at an event.

 

I appreciate any maintenance being performed on my caches except for replacement. I am happy to replace if I've discussed with the owner and I appreciate the reciprical. Sometimes it is obvious to the cacher on an easy find but other times it's amazing how easy it is to miss an easy find too.

 

I even had someone drop my cache in my lap at en event as I had archived it not long before, that was kind.

[team tisri]

Generally speaking I wouldn't replace a cache, simply because if it's gone missing it may be it keeps going missing and the owner would rather archive it than have yet another container disappear. If the owner isn't maintaining their caches any more it doesn't help anyone to keep it alive when it could be archived and the space freed for someone else who will maintain it.

 

I remember one particular cache I found where I'd checked with the CO that I had the right coordinates before heading out, as it was a fair way from home. They specifically said that they weren't sure it was there but with the coordinates and the clue it could only be in one place and if it wasn't there to feel free to replace it (the cache was a film pot, so not difficult to replace). That particular time, because I had an invitation to replace it before I even looked, I'd have replaced it if it had gone missing. Without that I'd have just logged a DNF.

[+metal-bijou]

And just to add, take this reply log as you will following a joke about a throw down for one cache. And I did use the cache for a challenge cacheanother time.