Manipulating the dates of your finds

June 28, 2013

There is series of caches in forming a loop that runs from the edge of the city into the desert and back again. These caches are in close proximetry to each other and can all be found within 3 hours if you have a 4x4. What we have picked up is a Tourist cacher has been logging each of these caches on a different date in order to qualify for a difficult challenge cache in his home country of 300 days of consecutive caching. Looking at his Matrix and caches he has logged it appears he has been doing this for quite a perios of time.

I removed all logs from caches and have some logs sheets where he is logging in the future?

I feel he is playing unfair on cachers that realy work hard to achieve mile stone while he does it all from the comfort of his living room.

What would you do?

4.6k · June 28, 2013

Fantasy logging - happens all the time - for some people the facts are just a minor, easily ignored inconvenience :rolleyes:

I've even known people to delete found logs and then relog on a different date - just to make it look like they had an unbroken consecutive streak - and still hold fast to their fantasy despite their date manipulation being common knowledge to the locals.

I blame those who set challenge caches in the first place - if they didn't do that people wouldn't be forced to invest the massive effort it takes to fabricate an imaginary version of real life events :laughing:

3.7k · June 28, 2013

Feel sorry for him. Like all cheaters, he is only cheating himself.

6.1k · June 28, 2013

I would probably ignore it, but if it bothers you you could delete his finds, and invite him to re-log them on the genuine date he did them, pointing out that you have evidence of the forward dated logs.

2.8k · June 28, 2013

Hey, if Texas politicians can change the date & time of a vote, why can't cachers change the date/time of a log?

June 28, 2013

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. He's only lying to himself. As long as he's legitimately found the cache and signed the paper log, he's entitled to his smiley. Anything beyond that... for me anyway... is just micromanagement. I don't concern myself with how others live their lives.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

I blame those who set challenge caches in the first place - if they didn't do that people wouldn't be forced to invest the massive effort it takes to fabricate an imaginary version of real life events

This. ^^^

1.3k · June 28, 2013

What would you do?

Nothing. Then I would keep going about my day.

2k · June 28, 2013

I blame those who set challenge caches in the first place - if they didn't do that people wouldn't be forced to invest the massive effort it takes to fabricate an imaginary version of real life events

This. ^^^

Uh huh, so, if there was not challenge caches, we would not have any debate on false finds across the world or for high terrain caches for folks own statistics, etc etc. You do have an ignore button ya know. I'd rather ignore a cache near Walmart than a cool challenge cache.

As far as the dates go. Well, its pretty sad to notice something this egregious, but ultimately its just a date, probably not enough grounds for deleting. I've certainly entered wrong dates in cache logs all the time, I never remember the date when am out on the field but that's different than finding 20 caches in a day and then spreading those 20 out to 20 different days.

Edited June 28, 2013 by lamoracke

6.1k · June 28, 2013

I did once do a series where I started out writing the 24th ('cos I thought that was the date), part way round I noticed the previous logger had written the 25th and I realised I had got the wrong date and started writing the 25th, but then before I got to the end of the series I realised the ACTUAL date was the 26th (I blame it on old age), so entered that on the rest of the caches; but I logged them all online with the correct date and explained I was an idiot in the logs.

7.8k · June 28, 2013

What we have picked up is a Tourist cacher has been logging each of these caches on a different date in order to qualify for a difficult challenge cache in his home country of 300 days of consecutive caching. Looking at his Matrix and caches he has logged it appears he has been doing this for quite a perios of time.

If that's what they're trying to do, they're not doing a very good job of it. Since they started logging caches in the UAE, they've missed logging a cache on June 9, 11, 14, 16, 17, and 21 to today. If they were just trying to fill in the calendar, I would think they'd fudge a few finds to fill in those empty dates that have already passed this year, like the ones in May.

The future-dating is odd, but based on their logging history, I can't see a reason for it.

4.6k · June 28, 2013

I blame those who set challenge caches in the first place - if they didn't do that people wouldn't be forced to invest the massive effort it takes to fabricate an imaginary version of real life events

This. ^^^

Uh huh, so, if there was not challenge caches, we would not have any debate on false finds across the world or for high terrain caches for folks own statistics, etc etc. You do have an ignore button ya know. I'd rather ignore a cache near Walmart than a cool challenge cache.

As far as the dates go. Well, its pretty sad to notice something this egregious, but ultimately its just a date, probably not enough grounds for deleting. I've certainly entered wrong dates in cache logs all the time, I never remember the date when am out on the field but that's different than finding 20 caches in a day and then spreading those 20 out to 20 different days.

Just for the record - just in case it wasn't obvious - I was joking

I find it ironic and slightly kooky that people will, how shall I put it, cut corners or rely on pure fiction to satisfy the criteria, try to justify the validity of their methods, blame the CO for setting such a difficult challenge in the first place but still hold aloft for all to see their marvellous achievement. But maybe that's just me

While some challenges seem to be just for the sake of it and a little bit pointless, the fact people cheat themselves to be able to log them is I would say, rather more pointless.

2k · June 28, 2013

Actually, I guessed right you were joking as I was trying to have my sarcasm filter on correct today, but the last person who said ^this^ was the one I thought might not be. Time will tell if he was just agreeing with your point or your joking.

3.4k · June 28, 2013

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. He's only lying to himself. As long as he's legitimately found the cache and signed the paper log, he's entitled to his smiley. Anything beyond that... for me anyway... is just micromanagement. I don't concern myself with how others live their lives.

I agree most with this response. As long as he has signed the logs (and is not claiming finds strictly from the comfort of his living room) I would just let it go.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

First of all, I assumed these were your caches -- and I actually checked to make sure -- but you don't actually say that, so I don't want anyone to be confused by thinking you're a third party. You're the CO, of course.

What would I do? I'd probably be too lazy to worry about it. I'm that kind of whatever-floats-you-boat guy.

But if you have clear evidence of a mistaken on-line log, feel free to take it up with the person. I'd phrase it as a friendly inquiry about how and why they found your caches one day at a time, or whether there's perhaps a mistake in the posted dates since they don't agree with the physical logs. And casually mention towards the end of the message that unless the dependency can be explained, you'll regret being forced by good CO practices to delete the logs.

But if you're not that kind of guy, feel free to just delete them all and ask him to repost them with the correct date. Just be sure to treat it as a mistake. Don't accuse him of intentionally falsifying the on-line logs even though it's pretty clear that's exactly what he was doing.

June 28, 2013

If it really bothers you, and you know which cache the individual is trying to complete, you could send a message to the CO of that cache. That CO is ultimately the one who is being manipulated, and is the one who determines who has actually completed the requirements for the challenge.

6.1k · June 28, 2013

Feel sorry for him. Like all cheaters, he is only cheating himself.

In theory that's true, but when other people show concern about it, it validates the practice as cheating others. Since the OP has deleted his logs, it only reinforces his reason for doing it.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. He's only lying to himself. As long as he's legitimately found the cache and signed the paper log, he's entitled to his smiley. Anything beyond that... for me anyway... is just micromanagement. I don't concern myself with how others live their lives.

I agree most with this response. As long as he has signed the logs (and is not claiming finds strictly from the comfort of his living room) I would just let it go.

I agree. If he signed the log he found the cache. The date doesn't matter, except to the Challenge cache owner.

Edited June 28, 2013 by L0ne R

June 28, 2013

I removed all logs from caches

as the cache owner, knowing he did not sign the cache log physically, you deleted the posted log, as is your right...

the rest you speak of is between him and each of the other cache owners separately...

geez, methinks spending your time creating another great cache placement or layout is a better option

than giving this person more of your time - 'tis not worth it, not even if you are in training for geo-cop ...

2.9k · June 28, 2013

Meh...I am dealing with a similar circumstance. A local cacher found three of my new caches and had the audacity to send me a note, thanking me for the caches, but he wasn't going to log them yet, so he could use them to fill his grid. I mean, doing it on your own is one thing, but blatantly admitting to doing it makes it all the more lame in my eyes. Some time passed from his note to me until a recent "found" log on one of my three caches. His log mentions that he's thankful to me "for placing some easy P&G's along the way that can be grabbed in a hurry on days when a cache is needed." :rolleyes:

June 28, 2013

This whole thing cracks me up because of the things people are willing to do today to achieve some unimportant goal. I know of a cacher that has done numerous things to keep a "find a day" streak alive. Only stamping the log sheets (no date) so they could be used for a date needed at a later time. Another is logging a virtual days/weeks later for the date needed. Making a statement that they forgot to log a cache they had found previously, but did not remember the date so they were logging it today. Yada, yada, yada....

It's a game. If they are comfortable with how they play it, so be it. Personally, I know for myself that I would not feel the satisfaction of meeting the demands of a challenge, etc. if I had manipulated cheated to accomplish the prerequisites.

As far as deleting an online log, I only have a few hides which are somewhat of a challenge to find. If the log is not physically signed, I will contact the person who logged online and ask them to explain their find (or something along that line). I have only had to do this a couple of times and in both instances things were peaceably rectified in one way or another. :laughing:

1.7k · June 28, 2013

Hey, if Texas politicians can change the date & time of a vote, why can't cachers change the date/time of a log?

<sarcasm off>

Listen, bub - if you're going to do that, do it correctly. It SHOULD be:

</sarcasm>

(Anybody want to guess what the 'edit' was?

Of course, I originally typed "<\sarcasm>".

What a dope. Way to ruin your own joke, Bill.)

Edited June 28, 2013 by TeamRabbitRun

3.4k · June 28, 2013

I . . . have some logs sheets where he is logging in the future?

You could remove the caches and temporarily disable them for the time period covering his "future" logs and say he couldn't possibly have found them on those dates because they weren't there.

3.6k · June 28, 2013

Do nothing. As long the logs are signed, there is nothing you can do about it.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

Meh...I am dealing with a similar circumstance. A local cacher found three of my new caches and had the audacity to send me a note, thanking me for the caches, but he wasn't going to log them yet, so he could use them to fill his grid. I mean, doing it on your own is one thing, but blatantly admitting to doing it makes it all the more lame in my eyes. Some time passed from his note to me until a recent "found" log on one of my three caches. His log mentions that he's thankful to me "for placing some easy P&G's along the way that can be grabbed in a hurry on days when a cache is needed."

Doesn't it seem that caching for statistics/challenges causes a lot of angst?

Before challenge caches was there a practice of fudging dates? Did it matter?

Edited June 28, 2013 by L0ne R

6.8k · June 28, 2013

I did once do a series where I started out writing the 24th ('cos I thought that was the date), part way round I noticed the previous logger had written the 25th and I realised I had got the wrong date and started writing the 25th, but then before I got to the end of the series I realised the ACTUAL date was the 26th (I blame it on old age), so entered that on the rest of the caches; but I logged them all online with the correct date and explained I was an idiot in the logs.

Actually, I have used more often than once the wrong date on logs, that could be both a date in the future and a date in the past (sometimes even the wrong year at the beginning of a new year). In none of the cases I did it on purpose. I often mix up the date.

Cezanne

2.9k · June 28, 2013

Meh...I am dealing with a similar circumstance. A local cacher found three of my new caches and had the audacity to send me a note, thanking me for the caches, but he wasn't going to log them yet, so he could use them to fill his grid. I mean, doing it on your own is one thing, but blatantly admitting to doing it makes it all the more lame in my eyes. Some time passed from his note to me until a recent "found" log on one of my three caches. His log mentions that he's thankful to me "for placing some easy P&G's along the way that can be grabbed in a hurry on days when a cache is needed."

Doesn't it seem that caching for statistics/challenges causes a lot of angst?

Before challenge caches was there a practice of fudging dates? Did it matter?

Sure seems like it. Most challenges I have fulfilled have been done by pure random achievement. I think part of the problem is that there are too many challenges out there that push cachers to go for sometimes ridiculous goals. For example, in my general neck of the woods, the Kansas City area is loaded with some straight-up silly challenges that would no doubt encourage fudging things, and I am sure quite a few people who log them have bent the rules a bit.

No matter, though...the way I look at it, there's always the option to ignore a cache.

1.1k · June 29, 2013

I did once do a series where I started out writing the 24th ('cos I thought that was the date), part way round I noticed the previous logger had written the 25th and I realised I had got the wrong date and started writing the 25th, but then before I got to the end of the series I realised the ACTUAL date was the 26th (I blame it on old age), so entered that on the rest of the caches; but I logged them all online with the correct date and explained I was an idiot in the logs.

Good to hear someone else can't remember what day it is! :laughing: Got myself a watch with the day and date on it, now if I can just remember to correct the watch at the end of the month.

4.1k · June 29, 2013

I blame those who set challenge caches in the first place - if they didn't do that people wouldn't be forced to invest the massive effort it takes to fabricate an imaginary version of real life events

This is the best analysis of the situation. But I also blame repetitive caches for giving people enough smileys so that they can be dispensed at later dates. And I blame Groundspeak for not having a rule that online logs must be dated correctly. And I blame the Bilderbergs for creating a culture where manipulation brings success. So with all this blame to go around I would not feel compelled to do anything. Or have time to do anything other than to figure out who to blame.

June 29, 2013

I blame those who set challenge caches in the first place - if they didn't do that people wouldn't be forced to invest the massive effort it takes to fabricate an imaginary version of real life events

I presume you're being sarcastic, but I'll respond as if you weren't ;-)

So the fault is with people who make rules, otherwise people wouldn't feel the need to break them?

1.4k · June 29, 2013

I have also seen postings where someone admits to logging out of order to have a special cache show as a milestone. Seems just as silly to me. <_<

6k · June 29, 2013

I . . . have some logs sheets where he is logging in the future?

You could remove the caches and temporarily disable them for the time period covering his "future" logs and say he couldn't possibly have found them on those dates because they weren't there.

Disabling a cache does not prevent logging. You have to have it archived and then ask for it to be locked.

1.7k · June 29, 2013

I . . . have some logs sheets where he is logging in the future?

You could remove the caches and temporarily disable them for the time period covering his "future" logs and say he couldn't possibly have found them on those dates because they weren't there.

Disabling a cache does not prevent logging. You have to have it archived and then ask for it to be locked.

Well, You COULD disable it and physically remove it for 'maintenance' for a day or two, but that would be punishing the rest of your potential finders to play head-games with the liar.

3.4k · June 29, 2013

I . . . have some logs sheets where he is logging in the future?

You could remove the caches and temporarily disable them for the time period covering his "future" logs and say he couldn't possibly have found them on those dates because they weren't there.

Disabling a cache does not prevent logging. You have to have it archived and then ask for it to be locked.

Not my point to prevent logging. My point was that the logs are obviously faked.

8.3k · June 29, 2013

I blame those who set challenge caches in the first place - if they didn't do that people wouldn't be forced to invest the massive effort it takes to fabricate an imaginary version of real life events

This is the best analysis of the situation. But I also blame repetitive caches for giving people enough smileys so that they can be dispensed at later dates. And I blame Groundspeak for not having a rule that online logs must be dated correctly. And I blame the Bilderbergs for creating a culture where manipulation brings success. So with all this blame to go around I would not feel compelled to do anything. Or have time to do anything other than to figure out who to blame.

How can Groundspeak have a rule about correctly dating the log when Groundspeak, by their own admission, can't get the dates right when caches are logged on the correct date?

5k · June 30, 2013

First of all, I assumed these were your caches -- and I actually checked to make sure -- but you don't actually say that, so I don't want anyone to be confused by thinking you're a third party. You're the CO, of course.

What would I do? I'd probably be too lazy to worry about it. I'm that kind of whatever-floats-you-boat guy.

But if you have clear evidence of a mistaken on-line log, feel free to take it up with the person. I'd phrase it as a friendly inquiry about how and why they found your caches one day at a time, or whether there's perhaps a mistake in the posted dates since they don't agree with the physical logs. And casually mention towards the end of the message that unless the dependency can be explained, you'll regret being forced by good CO practices to delete the logs.

But if you're not that kind of guy, feel free to just delete them all and ask him to repost them with the correct date. Just be sure to treat it as a mistake. Don't accuse him of intentionally falsifying the on-line logs even though it's pretty clear that's exactly what he was doing.

This is why I stopped dating the paper logs about four years ago. The date that I put on a log was one day off. My online log reflected the correct date. Two months later, control freak cacher deletes my log because it didn't match that on the paper log. Back then, it was not popular to appeal to Groundspeak to get your log reinstated, so I was forced to explain what was going on to the CO, and then re-log it. Since I keep all of my logs in order, I was forced to delete the six logs afterwards and re-log those as well, as well as explain to those cache owners what and why I was doing it.

Some people have a much too cavalier attitude about deleting logs, and I cringe when I see people advise others to do so in the forum.

I would advise the OP to either forget about it or report the behavior to the owner of the Challenge that you think he is trying to accomplish.

5k · June 30, 2013

Meh...I am dealing with a similar circumstance. A local cacher found three of my new caches and had the audacity to send me a note, thanking me for the caches, but he wasn't going to log them yet, so he could use them to fill his grid. I mean, doing it on your own is one thing, but blatantly admitting to doing it makes it all the more lame in my eyes. Some time passed from his note to me until a recent "found" log on one of my three caches. His log mentions that he's thankful to me "for placing some easy P&G's along the way that can be grabbed in a hurry on days when a cache is needed."

[LOL]

I'd have simply written back, "No problem, I'll just post a note on the cache to remind you of the date that you actually found it".

Edited June 30, 2013 by Don_J

5k · June 30, 2013

Do nothing. As long the logs are signed, there is nothing you can do about it.

Of course there is. You could publicly out him and make him the laughing stock of his peers..., or, you could do nothing.

6k · June 30, 2013

Do nothing. As long the logs are signed, there is nothing you can do about it.

Of course there is. You could publicly out him and make him the laughing stock of his peers..., or, you could do nothing.

You are assuming that he cares what his peers think. Peer pressure only works then. And how would you publicily out him. That is not allowed in the forums.

Besides is it really worth all that grief and angst over something so trivial.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Walts Hunting

5k · June 30, 2013

Do nothing. As long the logs are signed, there is nothing you can do about it.

Of course there is. You could publicly out him and make him the laughing stock of his peers..., or, you could do nothing.

You are assuming that he cares what his peers think. Peer pressure only works then. And how would you publicily out him. That is not allowed in the forums.

Besides is it really worth all that grief and angst over something so trivial.

Nobody reads the forums.

What you do is create a public bookmark list titled "Cachers who cheat on Challenges". In the description, put the cheater's name and an explanation of the transgressions, then add the challenge cache as well as all the caches he cheated on to the list. It will appear on the side bar of the challenge cache.

Of course, it could totally backfire. When the others look it up and see that he has spent fourty days wandering the Arabian Desert, they might think that he is some sort of caching Messiah, or something.

9.3k · June 30, 2013

Besides is it really worth all that grief and angst over something so trivial.

That's pretty much how I feel. I'm trying to care. Really. I am. But I got nuthin. (sic) :unsure:

I have logged caches on the wrong date, though never on purpose.

It strikes me as pretty odd, though I suspect the world will keep on turning.

1.7k · July 1, 2013

I have also seen postings where someone admits to logging out of order to have a special cache show as a milestone. Seems just as silly to me.

+1

6.1k · July 1, 2013

Do nothing. As long the logs are signed, there is nothing you can do about it.

Of course there is. You could publicly out him and make him the laughing stock of his peers..., or, you could do nothing.

I think it's in bad form and cheesy.

However I believe outing someone for something so silly would indicate a deeper character flaw than the person fudging dates. :rolleyes:

Edited July 1, 2013 by 4wheelin_fool

1.1k · July 1, 2013

a CO is expected to check for and delete logs he belives are made intentionally wrong,

read the guideline,

and perform your work as requested.

7.9k · July 1, 2013

I am currently in day 427 of my streak.

In my area, it really isn't too hard to do, but even so I did consider fudging the dates on some finds so I could take a day or two off if I wanted to. It would have been really easy considering the number of 'initials only' caches around here.

I decided my personal integrity was worth more than that, and the day it was too much trouble to go out and make a find would be the end of my streak.

I might consider letting the owner of the streak challenge know what was happening, but really, if the person wants to fool themselves like that, let them. THEY are the ones who will have to live with the knowledge that they really DIDN'T complete the challenge (if they ever really do).

1.1k · July 1, 2013

if there are no rules or regulations or people who check and complain -

then too many will cheat, and in the end ruin the game for all fair players,

so if you feel very sure someone cheat, ask, check, complain, and even delete logs..

this way you are a little minor part of the ones who help keep this game more true and fair

and in the end more fun..

2.6k · July 1, 2013

I would ignore it. Or maybe make a (non-accusing) comment back about the odd nature of the dates.

While this seems blatant, these types of challenges can result in some unusual caching. A good friend of mine was working to fill his grid, and would "find" (but not log) caches nearby. So that he could return on the day he needed a cache and quickly find it. He signed the log on the date he claimed the find so not really "cheating".

3.8k · July 1, 2013

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. He's only lying to himself. As long as he's legitimately found the cache and signed the paper log, he's entitled to his smiley. Anything beyond that... for me anyway... is just micromanagement. I don't concern myself with how others live their lives.

I agree most with this response. As long as he has signed the logs (and is not claiming finds strictly from the comfort of his living room) I would just let it go.

I agree. If he signed the log he found the cache. The date doesn't matter, except to the Challenge cache owner.

This. Cheesy, but who gives a rip.

1.3k · July 1, 2013

if there are no rules or regulations or people who check and complain -

then too many will cheat, and in the end ruin the game for all fair players,

so if you feel very sure someone cheat, ask, check, complain, and even delete logs..

this way you are a little minor part of the ones who help keep this game more true and fair

and in the end more fun..

I am not sure how this could happen.

If people DO NOT check and complain, no one would ever know that there was cheating and the game wouldn't be ruined.

If people DO check and complain, then the cheaters are caught and the game wouldn't be ruined.

There are challenge caches with explicit rules that have logs that do not meet the requirements and the CO does not intervene. GC346V9

If this is the case, how likely is it that date fudging would be policed?

I guess the real question is Why would you let someone else's weakness and backsliding affect your experience?

6.8k · July 1, 2013

if there are no rules or regulations or people who check and complain -

then too many will cheat, and in the end ruin the game for all fair players,

so if you feel very sure someone cheat, ask, check, complain, and even delete logs..

this way you are a little minor part of the ones who help keep this game more true and fair

and in the end more fun..

I have never ever heard that it should be my task to check the dates of logs for my owned caches, and as I mentioned

I have often unintentionally used wrong dates in my own logs.

I'm into geocaching to be more physically active. I'm neither playing a game nor do I take part into

a competition. The fun I find in geocaching is related to my experience and not to the way others complete

challenge caches.

Cezanne

Manipulating the dates of your finds

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