Grandfather the Letterbox Hybrid type

1.3k · June 28, 2013

Just another case of "I don't like [fill in the blank] so it should be gone for everyone".

Whoever decided that letterboxes must have custom made stamps better go around telling all the letterbox listing sites, so they can remove the "store bought stamp" attribute!

Be thankful that others go to the effort of placing caches for you to find, including LBHs, and stop acting so entitled.

Are you saying you hunt letterbox hybrids for the store bought stamp image? And you have a personal letterboxing logbook that you use to collect these LBH stamps?

Do you care that there's a stamp in the box?

Or do you hunt them because they are a cache. And you treat them like a regular cache, i.e. the stamp being in the cache makes no difference to you? Would you still hunt them if they were listed as a puzzle or traditional or multi? If you would, then why would it bother you if the LBH type was grandfathered? The cache would still exist, it just wouldn't have the LBH icon. What's the big deal about keeping a cache type where 95% of finders aren't into the stamp. And of the other 5% maybe 1% collects the stamp images.

I'm sure GS created the LBH type with the idea that true letterboxers would utilize the site to hide true letterboxes. That didn't happen and now most people that find/hide LBH's are doing it for the icon. There are still hiders (and finders) who do true letterbox style hybrids but most just include the stamp and call it a LBX. I wish there were more of the former, but I doubt the tide will suddenly shift. I'm with the camp that feels they're not really hurting anyone and if cachers are doing it for icon candy...then they are and that's what the cache type has more or less become.

If you're looking for homemade and rare stamps and following directions rather than a GPS to find the container, stick with letterboxes. I don't see the point in trying to take down an entire cache type just because it doesn't live up to your standards or "offends" your letterbox sensibilities.

Personally, I don't carry a stamp. I think a stamp should be something homemade and one of a kind. I don't have the skills to make anything that doesn't look like two 1st graders were fighting with razor blades. But, I have admired the stamp book in the LBH's I've found and the creativity and skill of some of those stamp makers is impressive.

5k · June 28, 2013

Yet another Letterbox Hybrid is posted in my area where the cache owner apparently planted one to get the LBH icon in their repository of hides (They have Traditional, Multi (1), Event, Earth (1), and Unknown (11) and now LB(1)). They didn't even use directions to the LBH. The stamp has nothing to do with the theme of the cache "There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." ...

I'm sorry, this is the first I have ever heard of a theme for a letterbox being required. Some of us are just not that artistic to be able to make a stamp. I don't even know how to make one. My attempt at a LBH was first a stamp made from clay. That didn't work to well, so I just used a store bought stamp. I don't see anything wrong with that, could you enlighten me?

I think it should stay for those who want them, but I think we should be able to do it as a ? cache, or maybe even a field puzzle. I mean we have night caches that are "Go to the co-ords and follow the reflectors" That would just be a LBH available at night.

A letterbox hybrid is all about the stamp. It's the only thing that makes it different from all the other cache types. If no consideration is given to making the stamp the #1 reason for the cache type, what's the point.

The original intend of using a stamp in a letterbox was to use it as evidence that you found that particular box. You could show your logbook to someone as proof that you found for instance, Dragon's Lode letterbox:

The custom made stamp was not one you could buy from the dollar store or Target.

I'm guessing that 99% of geocachers who plant a letterbox have no idea about what a letterbox is and the history behind it, nor do they care and nor do they care about collecting the stamp image. As a letterboxer who collects unique letterbox images, I would be happier if Groundspeak would provide attributes - one for commercial stamp and one for handcarved/custom stamp and grandfather the cache LBH type. Then I could run a PQ for caches that use the handcarved/custom stamp.

I'm getting quite frustrated when I get a new LBH notice in my email to read that someone

threw a generic stamp in "for the letterboxers"

or put in a punch instead of a unique stamp

or there's no stamp at all,

or in the case of older LBHs the box originally contained a stamp 2 years ago but the stamp went missing and the CO never replaced it but maintained the LBH status.

Throwing a generic run-of-the-mill stamp in the box "for the letterboxers" is insulting to true letterbox fans. If that's what we want we can download a ton of stamp images off the web. It's about finding that one-of-a-kind stamp that defines that box. It's more about the arts & crafts aspect. The letterbox type borders on Art Box.

If you don't want to provide a unique stamp then why are you hiding a letterbox, why not hide a puzzle cache instead. What is the appeal? From my experience, the appeal both for the hider and the finder is the icon. If it's the directional clues, and not the unique stamp, hide a puzzle/mystery.

So, you are saying that they should be eliminated because most of them don't meet your personal standards?

7.5k · June 28, 2013

Yet another Letterbox Hybrid is posted in my area where the cache owner apparently planted one to get the LBH icon in their repository of hides (They have Traditional, Multi (1), Event, Earth (1), and Unknown (11) and now LB(1)). They didn't even use directions to the LBH. The stamp has nothing to do with the theme of the cache "There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." ...

I'm sorry, this is the first I have ever heard of a theme for a letterbox being required. Some of us are just not that artistic to be able to make a stamp. I don't even know how to make one. My attempt at a LBH was first a stamp made from clay. That didn't work to well, so I just used a store bought stamp. I don't see anything wrong with that, could you enlighten me?

I think it should stay for those who want them, but I think we should be able to do it as a ? cache, or maybe even a field puzzle. I mean we have night caches that are "Go to the co-ords and follow the reflectors" That would just be a LBH available at night.

A letterbox hybrid is all about the stamp. It's the only thing that makes it different from all the other cache types. If no consideration is given to making the stamp the #1 reason for the cache type, what's the point.

The original intend of using a stamp in a letterbox was to use it as evidence that you found that particular box. You could show your logbook to someone as proof that you found for instance, Dragon's Lode letterbox:

The custom made stamp was not one you could buy from the dollar store or Target.

I'm guessing that 99% of geocachers who plant a letterbox have no idea about what a letterbox is and the history behind it, nor do they care and nor do they care about collecting the stamp image. As a letterboxer who collects unique letterbox images, I would be happier if Groundspeak would provide attributes - one for commercial stamp and one for handcarved/custom stamp and grandfather the cache LBH type. Then I could run a PQ for caches that use the handcarved/custom stamp.

I'm getting quite frustrated when I get a new LBH notice in my email to read that someone

threw a generic stamp in "for the letterboxers"

or put in a punch instead of a unique stamp

or there's no stamp at all,

or in the case of older LBHs the box originally contained a stamp 2 years ago but the stamp went missing and the CO never replaced it but maintained the LBH status.

Throwing a generic run-of-the-mill stamp in the box "for the letterboxers" is insulting to true letterbox fans. If that's what we want we can download a ton of stamp images off the web. It's about finding that one-of-a-kind stamp that defines that box. It's more about the arts & crafts aspect. The letterbox type borders on Art Box.

If you don't want to provide a unique stamp then why are you hiding a letterbox, why not hide a puzzle cache instead. What is the appeal? From my experience, the appeal both for the hider and the finder is the icon. If it's the directional clues, and not the unique stamp, hide a puzzle/mystery.

So, you are saying that they should be eliminated because most of them don't meet your personal standards?

They wouldn't be eliminated. Just the icon. Letterboxes could still be planted for people want to put a stamp in the box for folks to stamp into their letterbox journal. Ideally GS would provide attributes to help indicate that there's a stamp in the box. And like Challenge boxes they could insist that 'Letterbox' be put in the title.

No one who insists on saving the LBH icon has said they care about the stamp and carry a logbook to collect letterbox images. Does anyone who is defending the LBH defending it for the stamp in the box?

If 95% of multi-caches were actually one-stage multis (i.e. a traditional), it seems there would be people insisting GS keep the multi type because they 'like' hunting 'multis'. What they really mean is they like having the multi type icon in their repository of cache finds and hides. Plus they like being rewarded with a new icon and not having to work at creating a true multi stage cache.

So, again I ask, those of you who don't want the LBH to be grandfathered, is the reason the icon, or the stamp?

Edited June 28, 2013 by L0ne R

6.8k · June 28, 2013

What is it about letterboxes you enjoy and why couldn't a cache with a stamp that's listed as a puzzle or traditional still be enjoyed just as much? From my 10 year perspective on LBHs what people enjoy is the icon.

I enjoy following the clues and neither care about stamps nor about the icon.

I enjoyed letterbox hybrids like that one where the GPSr is needed only in the beginning and of no use later on

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=1f3ce52b-4f61-4b3d-accd-a3e712efd646

I enjoy real letterboxes, but none are available in my area. There is no letterboxing community, but a large geocaching community among which there would be enough people interested into occasional letterboxes.

Cezanne

Edited June 28, 2013 by cezanne

6.8k · June 28, 2013

Any physical cache container that has a letterboxing stamp can be listed as a letterbox hybrid cache. The biggest issue I see when reviewing LBH submissions are designs that have no meaningful GPS use. There's no meaningful GPS use if you post coords for the parking lot and then say "Go to the parking lot and go down the trail until you see a big lone pine tree."

Yet letterbox hybrid caches designed in that way (but more in much more interesting and elaborate manner than just using one simple clue) have been published for many years in countries like Germany and Austria. Those letterbox caches were the only ones I enjoyed. Traditional caches with stamps in them are simply boring to me and of no interest at all. I do not care about stamps and never bring along a stamp of my own and typically also not try out the stamp provided in letterbox hybrids I found. The most boring letterbox hybrid caches to me are those where then container is a real mailbox (letterbox).

I would like to see a real letterbox cache type where what's essential are the letterbox style clues while still keeping the geocaching tradition of having online logs, availability of the descriptions to a wide audience on the internet etc. I do know that the chance to get such a cache type implemented on gc.com, is zero. It is still something I very much would like to have.

I enjoy hunting for letterboxes which combine many different clues such as in longer multi caches. I cannot go to any other site as no such offer exists in my area.

I know many geocachers in my area who would enjoy to hunt or to hide a real letterbox cache from time to time where the GPSr plays not much role, but those never ever would want to visit separate sites (even if they existed) for each side variant they are interested into.

Cezanne

6.1k · June 28, 2013

So, again I ask, those of you who don't want the LBH to be grandfathered, is the reason the icon, or the stamp?

The opinions of the 15 people who have replied to this thread do not represent the hundreds of thousands active geocachers worldwide. Replacing the icon with an attribute would surely kill any remaining LBHs, as the stamp would disappear from many cache boxes. Cachers would not realize it is not to be traded and take it. I read all of the logbooks that I find, and see many stamps in regular geocaches. These are letterbox enthusiasts who would be unduly upset at the demise of the practice. If anything, it should be changed so it is more like letterboxing, and have the final offset from the posted coords. Putting the icon in the parking lot and giving general directions like you would see on a park brochure is not letterboxing either. The clues should be the type that make zero sense unless you are in the area. The starting point should not be at a trailhead or parking lot either to mandate GPS usage. That would be a true LBH, and what the icon should represent.

Let me add that you make a great case for and updating the requirements for a LBH, rather than removing them.

Edited June 28, 2013 by 4wheelin_fool

1.4k · June 28, 2013

Yet another Letterbox Hybrid is posted in my area where the cache owner apparently planted one to get the LBH icon in their repository of hides (They have Traditional, Multi (1), Event, Earth (1), and Unknown (11) and now LB(1)). They didn't even use directions to the LBH. The stamp has nothing to do with the theme of the cache "There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." ...

I'm sorry, this is the first I have ever heard of a theme for a letterbox being required. Some of us are just not that artistic to be able to make a stamp. I don't even know how to make one. My attempt at a LBH was first a stamp made from clay. That didn't work to well, so I just used a store bought stamp. I don't see anything wrong with that, could you enlighten me?

I think it should stay for those who want them, but I think we should be able to do it as a ? cache, or maybe even a field puzzle. I mean we have night caches that are "Go to the co-ords and follow the reflectors" That would just be a LBH available at night.

A letterbox hybrid is all about the stamp. It's the only thing that makes it different from all the other cache types. If no consideration is given to making the stamp the #1 reason for the cache type, what's the point.

The original intend of using a stamp in a letterbox was to use it as evidence that you found that particular box. You could show your logbook to someone as proof that you found for instance, Dragon's Lode letterbox:

The custom made stamp was not one you could buy from the dollar store or Target.

I'm guessing that 99% of geocachers who plant a letterbox have no idea about what a letterbox is and the history behind it, nor do they care and nor do they care about collecting the stamp image. As a letterboxer who collects unique letterbox images, I would be happier if Groundspeak would provide attributes - one for commercial stamp and one for handcarved/custom stamp and grandfather the cache LBH type. Then I could run a PQ for caches that use the handcarved/custom stamp.

I'm getting quite frustrated when I get a new LBH notice in my email to read that someone

threw a generic stamp in "for the letterboxers"

or put in a punch instead of a unique stamp

or there's no stamp at all,

or in the case of older LBHs the box originally contained a stamp 2 years ago but the stamp went missing and the CO never replaced it but maintained the LBH status.

Throwing a generic run-of-the-mill stamp in the box "for the letterboxers" is insulting to true letterbox fans. If that's what we want we can download a ton of stamp images off the web. It's about finding that one-of-a-kind stamp that defines that box. It's more about the arts & crafts aspect. The letterbox type borders on Art Box.

If you don't want to provide a unique stamp then why are you hiding a letterbox, why not hide a puzzle cache instead. What is the appeal? From my experience, the appeal both for the hider and the finder is the icon. If it's the directional clues, and not the unique stamp, hide a puzzle/mystery.

So, you are saying that they should be eliminated because most of them don't meet your personal standards?

They wouldn't be eliminated. Just the icon. Letterboxes could still be planted for people want to put a stamp in the box for folks to stamp into their letterbox journal. Ideally GS would provide attributes to help indicate that there's a stamp in the box. And like Challenge boxes they could insist that 'Letterbox' be put in the title.

No one who insists on saving the LBH icon has said they care about the stamp and carry a logbook to collect letterbox images. Does anyone who is defending the LBH defending it for the stamp in the box?

If 95% of multi-caches were actually one-stage multis (i.e. a traditional), it seems there would be people insisting GS keep the multi type because they 'like' hunting 'multis'. What they really mean is they like having the multi type icon in their repository of cache finds and hides. Plus they like being rewarded with a new icon and not having to work at creating a true multi stage cache.

So, again I ask, those of you who don't want the LBH to be grandfathered, is the reason the icon, or the stamp?

And again I ask; what difference does it make? Does it affect the way you play your game? Is it hurting anything? I'm not defending the icon, and I'm not defending the stamp. I've only found 1 LBH, and it was a good one. I'll look for the ones that allow for me to follow directions to get to the cache site. I'll ignore the ones that I don't feel like looking for. I suggest you do the same.

I see this as an instance where the person suggesting the change should be giving valid reasons why. It's not up to other folks to give reasons why not. It still looks as if it's just something you don't like and want changed. In my eyes, that's not enough reason to change anything.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

In another thread there was a discussion of the tightening up of the requirement that specific coordinates play a role in every geocache. That rule gets in the way of some interesting ideas, and seems almost confusing in the face of the letterbox hybrid. I wonder if the letterbox hybrid cache type might be useful as the type that doesn't have that GPSr requirement. Instead of continuing to push for the purity of geocaches by requiring a GPSr at some stage to find every one, perhaps the letterbox hybrid could be the "escape clause" to provide a place for any cache that can be found without exact coordinates.

6.1k · June 28, 2013

In another thread there was a discussion of the tightening up of the requirement that specific coordinates play a role in every geocache. That rule gets in the way of some interesting ideas, and seems almost confusing in the face of the letterbox hybrid. I wonder if the letterbox hybrid cache type might be useful as the type that doesn't have that GPSr requirement. Instead of continuing to push for the purity of geocaches by requiring a GPSr at some stage to find every one, perhaps the letterbox hybrid could be the "escape clause" to provide a place for any cache that can be found without exact coordinates.

The GPS requirement is outdated. Many cachers do not use a GPS anymore, as the smartphone app pulls up a photo of the area and shows the location.

June 28, 2013

Yet another Letterbox Hybrid is posted in my area where the cache owner apparently planted one to get the LBH icon in their repository of hides (They have Traditional, Multi (1), Event, Earth (1), and Unknown (11) and now LB(1)). They didn't even use directions to the LBH. The stamp has nothing to do with the theme of the cache "There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." The cache title is "The Cache is in the Mail".

I am the CO of the recently published letterbox that the OP L0ne R is so critical. Did I publish the cache for the letterbox icon? That's one of the reasons, and what's wrong with that? It's a letterbox cache with a "toy story" stamp included, and the cache is at the posted coordinates. Again, where did I go afoul of the Groundspeak guidelines?

This letterbox was placed in one of the Simcoe County Forests called the Tottenham Tract. This area is one of the finest forests in Simcoe County with multiple trails and varying topography. This is by far my favourite area to hike, and enjoy nature. I have placed 3 different icons in this tract of forest, and am presently working on a Wherigo, Traditional, and Earthcache for future placement. Believe it or not, my main goal is to entice cachers to this forest, and have an enjoyable time seeking caches. I always assumed that the main purpose of a geocache was to take one to an interesting or memorable place.

I also find it odd that L0ne R criticized my letterbox without having attempted the cache. The cache is not far from the parking coordinates, but one must climb a fairly steep hill to arrive at the geozone. The view from this location is what I was hoping cachers would discover and experience, and not just a fancy stamp in a cache. However, I actually did have a custom self inking stamp made, but was advised that it would probably go missing from the cache. Instead I purchased 6 cheap toy story stamps for easy replenishment.

To date I have published 30 caches under Lisdowney, and 11 more under the Mystery Mole. I also placed 6 more caches in the Tottenham Tract for my good friend Carni Grewal, and I'm the maintenance person for these caches. I've been feeling guilty lately that I haven't given enough back to the hobby, and I'm trying to remedy that situation by publishing more caches. I'm hoping to add to the enjoyment of others, and not just be a selfish user.

After reading the L0ne R's initial post, my first reaction was to examine the L0ne R's repository of published hides for letterbox guidance. Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

14k · June 28, 2013

In another thread there was a discussion of the tightening up of the requirement that specific coordinates play a role in every geocache. That rule gets in the way of some interesting ideas, and seems almost confusing in the face of the letterbox hybrid. I wonder if the letterbox hybrid cache type might be useful as the type that doesn't have that GPSr requirement. Instead of continuing to push for the purity of geocaches by requiring a GPSr at some stage to find every one, perhaps the letterbox hybrid could be the "escape clause" to provide a place for any cache that can be found without exact coordinates.

The GPS requirement is outdated. Many cachers do not use a GPS anymore, as the smartphone app pulls up a photo of the area and shows the location.

Semantics.

A smartphone app uses a GPS to display a photo of the area and location of the cache, therefore the "use of a GPSr at some stage" still applies.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

The GPS requirement is outdated. Many cachers do not use a GPS anymore, as the smartphone app pulls up a photo of the area and shows the location.

Specific coordinates are required for at least one stage in any new cache. I was only using "GPS" as shorthand to capture that requirement. Sorry for the confusion.

1.3k · June 28, 2013

The biggest issue I see when reviewing LBH submissions are designs that have no meaningful GPS use. There's no meaningful GPS use if you post coords for the parking lot and then say "Go to the parking lot and go down the trail until you see a big lone pine tree."

I'm a little confused by this. Is it the fact that the coordinates lead you to a parking lot that makes it less meaningful? To me, I think wherever the LBH coordinates start is a little arbitrary...as long as it takes you on a nice adventure after. I'd rather start at the parking lot and have to follow clues than to see a hide at the posted coordinates and the only reason it's a LBH is the stamp.

9.3k · June 28, 2013

So, again I ask, those of you who don't want the LBH to be grandfathered, is the reason the icon, or the stamp?

I don't want the icon eliminated. If I had to explore my motivation, I'd say it was more than just an 'A or B' question. I do like the icon, though that's probably the least of my reasons. It is a pretty kewl icon, but if Groundspeak changed it to some less aesthetic one, I'd still like it. I haven't seen an icon yet that I don't like, I really like the stamps, especially the hand carved ones. I don't mind store bought stamps, so long as they are, at the very least, decorative and interesting. Stamps which are produced by the bazillions, such as Disney or Pixar characters, are just lame, in my book. But my favorite aspect of these are getting to a specific spot via my Garmin, and then following detailed directions which lead me to the cache.

5.6k · June 28, 2013

In another thread there was a discussion of the tightening up of the requirement that specific coordinates play a role in every geocache. That rule gets in the way of some interesting ideas, and seems almost confusing in the face of the letterbox hybrid. I wonder if the letterbox hybrid cache type might be useful as the type that doesn't have that GPSr requirement. Instead of continuing to push for the purity of geocaches by requiring a GPSr at some stage to find every one, perhaps the letterbox hybrid could be the "escape clause" to provide a place for any cache that can be found without exact coordinates.

The GPS requirement is outdated. Many cachers do not use a GPS anymore, as the smartphone app pulls up a photo of the area and shows the location.

Semantics.

A smartphone app uses a GPS to display a photo of the area and location of the cache, therefore the "use of a GPSr at some stage" still applies.

An additional point: How current is that photo? I was cache last weekend in an area that is newly developed - some photos showed houses and the park, some showed construction, one the orginial "wilderness" - one site even changed with the zoom level.

3.7k · June 29, 2013

Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

Ouch! I have to agree, though. If you haven't placed any caches of your own, you're not in a position to be criticizing other people's hides. Instead, you should be glad people are volunteering their time so you can have fun.

June 29, 2013

As the sole finder, to date, of the "cache in discussion", some 48 hours after publication, I had no problem with the makeup of the container, the cache description, or anything else. Perhaps you should check it out before slamming it. I merely enjoyed the hike again in these beautiful woods to pick up this, and the other nearby new listing while I was at it, as a respite from the recent heat wave which we have been experiencing.

As the CO has mentioned, he is working on placing more caches back in this area, and I can hardly wait. There are currently 10 caches, of various types and ratings, in this County Forest, and room for lots more without saturating it. I have discovered seven of the ten, and am nearing completion on the two remaining Challenges, as well as working on the Mystery cache.

For those who have never visited the area, I invite you to get off of your soapboxes and make the trip. I can guarantee you that most people won't be disappointed with what is offered, both with our local caching varieties and local tourism. Of course, we can't always appease everyone.

6.1k · June 29, 2013

In another thread there was a discussion of the tightening up of the requirement that specific coordinates play a role in every geocache. That rule gets in the way of some interesting ideas, and seems almost confusing in the face of the letterbox hybrid. I wonder if the letterbox hybrid cache type might be useful as the type that doesn't have that GPSr requirement. Instead of continuing to push for the purity of geocaches by requiring a GPSr at some stage to find every one, perhaps the letterbox hybrid could be the "escape clause" to provide a place for any cache that can be found without exact coordinates.

The GPS requirement is outdated. Many cachers do not use a GPS anymore, as the smartphone app pulls up a photo of the area and shows the location.

Semantics.

A smartphone app uses a GPS to display a photo of the area and location of the cache, therefore the "use of a GPSr at some stage" still applies.

The GPS usage of an app user is inconsequential, as the photo on the map is what is used.

June 29, 2013

This whole topic kind of boggles my mind. Worst possible letterbox hybrid: really a traditional with a stamp, but not a micro, yeah! You get a smiley, same as for a traditional without a stamp, not a micro, you can do trades, etc. Best possible letterbox hybrid: cool adventure with clues to the find and a unique stamp at the end. Awesome! So...let's review, shall we: worst case scenario--an average cache that harms no one, good scenarios--fun and a cool stamp, best scenarios--adventure plus a work of art. What's not to like? There's the little letterbox icon, minding its own business, offending no one (well, other than the OP), and someone dumps all over it. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Dame Deco

June 29, 2013

Of course, we can't always appease everyone.

I have a lot of opinions, fortunately I keep them to myself for the most part. There are caches that I'll avoid on principal, yeah right, I end up looking for them anyway. Sometimes I am surprised they are so good. Sometimes I think we should grandfather the Traditional type as it would allow for a richer experience. But that thought doesn't last long because it is ridiculously stupid.

A few months ago I found a LBH that turned out to be a film can at the base of a drive-up tree, no stamp, no funky directions to get to the final, darn nice view of the lake though. I think there was an original with a stamp that was long gone, but should the LBH be archived as a result? Well, who am I to say?

I don't see a problem with the cache in question. Au contraire, it seems appealing. I'm not a hardcore letterboxer, so when I find an LBH I try to stamp my wife's forehead, and when that doesn't work I stamp the back of my hand and then, when I get home, I tell my kids that I went drinking in the club district. As long as there's a stamp, it's a letterbox. And if it's been placed in a nice forest, with a terrific walk, with a few other caches around, then bonus for me.

2.7k · June 29, 2013

Call me strange, but if one wants a purist letterbox experience can they not obtain that by visiting one of the letterbox only listing sites like Atlas Quest, and let the geocachers live in peace with the current letterbox hybrid type? It's not like there is a saturation guideline for non Groundspeak based games with geocaches ....

7.3k · June 29, 2013

Geez, all the other locals are chiming in...

I agree with northernpenguin. If you want Letterboxing purity, then stick with Letterboxing.

When you constantly harp about your mission, you start to sound rather shrill and narrow-minded.

Yes, I like LB-hybrids. Haven't found many, but then there's not a lot around to find. I'm glad Lisdowney planted one fairly close to us.

Yes, I like finding caches with different icons. If we were prolific hiders, I would strive to place as many different types as possible.

It's not hurting you, or the caching community. Why are you so adamant about pushing your agenda? Why do you continue to insist that everyone play the game according to your very narrow, restrictive ideas?

For the folks that don't know, Lisdowney is one of the most respected caching teams around here.

B.

7.3k · June 29, 2013

A few months ago I found a LBH that turned out to be a film can at the base of a drive-up tree, no stamp, no funky directions to get to the final, darn nice view of the lake though. I think there was an original with a stamp that was long gone, but should the LBH be archived as a result? Well, who am I to say?

That's something for the "no throwdowns" discussion.

Yes, that one should be archived. If nothing else, the cache owner is no longer properly maintaining the cache or the cache listing.

B.

June 29, 2013

There's only one in my area and it was placed to allow for cachers to get the icon if they so desire. I always thought that Letterbox Hybrids should either be their own separate form of seeking similar to Benchmarking or simply an attribute instead of this in between that leaves people who have no idea what a Letterbox Hybrid able to place them simply to get an icon.

10.2k · June 29, 2013

This whole topic kind of boggles my mind. Worst possible letterbox hybrid: really a traditional with a stamp, but not a micro, yeah! You get a smiley, same as for a traditional without a stamp, not a micro, you can do trades, etc. Best possible letterbox hybrid: cool adventure with clues to the find and a unique stamp at the end. Awesome! So...let's review, shall we: worst case scenario--an average cache that harms no one, good scenarios--fun and a cool stamp, best scenarios--adventure plus a work of art. What's not to like? There's the little letterbox icon, minding its own business, offending no one (well, other than the OP), and someone dumps all over it. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Eh, you have to have been around for a while. Well, at least for some of us, Northern Penquin has certainly been around for a while. The OP is a well-known letterboxer first. I believe it's an antiquated cache type, that has never been used properly. It was even worse in the "old days" before they tightened up on the review process. Here's one that I've found. And I feel comfortable posting it here, since the CO hasn't logged a find since 2007 (even though they briefly logged in this year). How the heck is this a letterbox hybrid? It was just a decon sitting in a tree in a park. I could give other examples, but why bother. No one is ever going to give up the opportunity for a unique icon, either on the hide or find side.

I wouldn't doubt you can trace the orgins of this cache type to Geocaching.com's failed attempt to "take over" Letterboxing.org, pre-Atlas Quest, which didn't come along until 2004.

1.3k · June 29, 2013

I am working up a LBH that will contain an excellent stamp that my sister carved. There will also be some nice homemade knit items in it.

I was going to make it PMO because I don't want pilferage by anonymous app users.

Now I am wondering if I need to do that -- do LBH's show up in the free version of the app?

If not, that alone is a good reason to keep this type.

7.3k · June 29, 2013

Eh, you have to have been around for a while. Well, at least for some of us, Northern Penquin has certainly been around for a while. The OP is a well-known letterboxer first. I believe it's an antiquated cache type, that has never been used properly. It was even worse in the "old days" before they tightened up on the review process. Here's one that I've found. And I feel comfortable posting it here, since the CO hasn't logged a find since 2007 (even though they briefly logged in this year). How the heck is this a letterbox hybrid? It was just a decon sitting in a tree in a park. I could give other examples, but why bother. No one is ever going to give up the opportunity for a unique icon, either on the hide or find side.

I wouldn't doubt you can trace the orgins of this cache type to Geocaching.com's failed attempt to "take over" Letterboxing.org, pre-Atlas Quest, which didn't come along until 2004.

Couldn't possibly have been an error on the Reviewer's part? Or an error in choosing the type of cache, that the reviewer wouldn't know about unless he physically found it?

So what if we like searching out different icons? At least we're not logging "found it" over and over again for the same GC code, or logging "found it" for caches that are missing.

Geezaloo, I can't believe how many cachers have control issues.

B.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Pup Patrol

21.9k · June 29, 2013

Here's one that I've found. And I feel comfortable posting it here, since the CO hasn't logged a find since 2007 (even though they briefly logged in this year). How the heck is this a letterbox hybrid? It was just a decon sitting in a tree in a park.

How interesting that you'd pick that particular cache. Here's my log from 2004:

Hooray! Our first true letterbox hybrid find (found one earlier in the day with no stamp in it)! There is only one letterbox hybrid within 50 miles of our home coordinates in Pittsburgh, and we haven't had a chance to visit it yet. It was fun stamping our caching notebook with the cache's stamp. We left our Shamrock stamp in the log. Thanks for a fun find.

It seems I enjoyed it.

How the heck is this a letterbox hybrid? Because it had a letterboxing stamp in it.

10.2k · June 29, 2013

Here's one that I've found. And I feel comfortable posting it here, since the CO hasn't logged a find since 2007 (even though they briefly logged in this year). How the heck is this a letterbox hybrid? It was just a decon sitting in a tree in a park.

How interesting that you'd pick that particular cache. Here's my log from 2004:

Hooray! Our first true letterbox hybrid find (found one earlier in the day with no stamp in it)! There is only one letterbox hybrid within 50 miles of our home coordinates in Pittsburgh, and we haven't had a chance to visit it yet. It was fun stamping our caching notebook with the cache's stamp. We left our Shamrock stamp in the log. Thanks for a fun find.

It seems I enjoyed it.

How the heck is this a letterbox hybrid? Because it had a letterboxing stamp in it.

Well, it had no stamp when I found it on 3/18/2005, the cache page makes no mention of it having a stamp in it, and there is nothing on the cache page indicating it was anything more than a decon container at the posted coordinates. Which of course it was, when I found it. I said I don't want to give any more examples. That would involve long time geo-pals, who hey, have a letterbox hybrid icon in their hides.

June 29, 2013

From the Geocaching site.

Letterbox Hybrid

Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting using clues instead of coordinates. In some cases, the letterbox owner has made their container both a letterbox and a geocache and posted its coordinates on Geocaching.com. If there is a stamp inside a Letterbox Hybrid, it is not an item intended for trade; the stamp is meant to remain in the box so that visitors can use it to record their visit. To read more about letterboxing, visit the Letterboxing North America web site.

So truly, according to the GC web site, the LBH posted coordinates should be where the LBH is...not where an adventure starts.

If you want the adventure, hopfully the same container is listed on one of the LB'ing sites.

4.1k · June 29, 2013

I wouldn't doubt you can trace the orgins of this cache type to Geocaching.com's failed attempt to "take over" Letterboxing.org, pre-Atlas Quest, which didn't come along until 2004.

I have wondered the same thing. The "if we can't take you over we can call a geocache a letterbox if someone sticks a stamp in it" type of approach. So this has led to a number of letterbox hybrids that are nothing more than a cache placed at the listed coordinates with a store bought generic stamp. As some people have often reminded forum users, that is all that is required of a LBH cache -- and even then the stamp is sometimes missing. One of the more recent LBH caches that I did would have gotten a favorite for having a fun and creative theme, with four different final locations depending on the way the journey panned out, but the two end-game containers I found were micros without a stamp. It was too bad.

Still, properly done, a LBH can offer a unique and creative caching experience. You can do things with a letterbox that go beyond traditional caching. So I see no reason to grandfather the type as a whole. Change the guidelines to explain the importance of the stamp and encourage people to find clues. Make it so it requires something other than listed coordinates. Make them into letterboxes rather than a cache with a stamp in it.

4.1k · June 29, 2013

From the Geocaching site.

Letterbox Hybrid

Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting using clues instead of coordinates. In some cases, the letterbox owner has made their container both a letterbox and a geocache and posted its coordinates on Geocaching.com. If there is a stamp inside a Letterbox Hybrid, it is not an item intended for trade; the stamp is meant to remain in the box so that visitors can use it to record their visit. To read more about letterboxing, visit the Letterboxing North America web site.

So truly, according to the GC web site, the LBH posted coordinates should be where the LBH is...not where an adventure starts.

If you want the adventure, hopfully the same container is listed on one of the LB'ing sites.

Groundspeak also states:

A Letterbox Hybrid must include significant GPS usage for at least part of the hunt. Letterbox-style clues may be used to guide seekers to the container, but only if the clues are accompanied by coordinates specific to the hide. The container for a Letterbox Hybrid must include a stamp, which stays with the geocache and may be used by letter-boxers to stamp their personal letter-boxing book. The cache can be logged without using the stamp.

So there is no reason not to have the adventure. But as stated above, I would rewrite the guidelines to make LBH caches closer to letterboxes. We should not let letterboxers have all the adventure.

Edited June 29, 2013 by geodarts

June 29, 2013

I like LBH caches, regardless of the effort involved in finding them. To me, there is usually an extra bit of effort involved with their placement because the CO has to spend some of their own hard earned money on a stamp (and perhaps time and effort should they choose to create their own) and aren't keen on losing that extra money to a non-cacher. Additionally, since it does take extra money and effort, their presence in Geocaching is rare enough to make me seek them out as a target cache.

Reading through the comments of the OP gives me the impression that this argument boils down to semantics. Had the name of the cache type not been selected as "Letterbox Hybrid" all those years ago, but rather "Stampcache", could a person really have an expectation that the experience should be similar in any way to an actual Letterbox hide listed on any other service other than the fact that the cache should have a stamp in it?

10.2k · June 29, 2013

From the Geocaching site.

Letterbox Hybrid

Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting using clues instead of coordinates. In some cases, the letterbox owner has made their container both a letterbox and a geocache and posted its coordinates on Geocaching.com. If there is a stamp inside a Letterbox Hybrid, it is not an item intended for trade; the stamp is meant to remain in the box so that visitors can use it to record their visit. To read more about letterboxing, visit the Letterboxing North America web site.

So truly, according to the GC web site, the LBH posted coordinates should be where the LBH is...not where an adventure starts.

If you want the adventure, hopfully the same container is listed on one of the LB'ing sites.

Oh, no argument there. Most are nothing more than a cache at it's posted coordinates, containing a stamp. Usually a store bought stamp that almost all members of Atlas Quest would consider horrifically lame. The whole thing is just silly. But no one is ever going to give up their icons.

6.8k · June 29, 2013

Oh, no argument there. Most are nothing more than a cache at it's posted coordinates, containing a stamp. Usually a store bought stamp that almost all members of Atlas Quest would consider horrifically lame. The whole thing is just silly. But no one is ever going to give up their icons.

At least half of the letterbox hybrids I've seen in Austria and Germany are not traditionals.

Personally, I think that the formulation "at the posted coordinates" was chosen at a time when multi caches and mystery caches as cache type did not yet exist.

As I commented on before, the interest into letterbox hybrids in my area comes from letterbox clues and not from stamps or icons.

I do not care at all which stamp is to be found in a letterbox.

I would hide my own letterbox hybrid if I could eliminate GPS-usage at all.

Cezanne

1.2k · June 29, 2013

nevermind

6.1k · June 29, 2013

After reading the L0ne R's initial post, my first reaction was to examine the L0ne R's repository of published hides for letterbox guidance. Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

She reportedly has been hiding letterbox hybrids since 2002, perhaps under another username. Although it was unfortunate that your hide was mentioned specifically, the thread really isn't about it at all, but just a general discussion.

I've been planting hybrids with handcarved stamps since 2002 with very good results.

The only time a cacher took one of my stamps is when I didn't label the stamp and didn't put a note in the box. BTW he brought it back to me when I contacted him, so I can say I've never lost a stamp to a swag trade in 9 years of planting hybrids.

Edited June 29, 2013 by 4wheelin_fool

June 29, 2013

After reading the L0ne R's initial post, my first reaction was to examine the L0ne R's repository of published hides for letterbox guidance. Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

She reportedly has been hiding letterbox hybrids since 2002, perhaps under another username. Although it was unfortunate that your hide was mentioned specifically, the thread really isn't about it at all, but just a general discussion.

I've been planting hybrids with handcarved stamps since 2002 with very good results.

The only time a cacher took one of my stamps is when I didn't label the stamp and didn't put a note in the box. BTW he brought it back to me when I contacted him, so I can say I've never lost a stamp to a swag trade in 9 years of planting hybrids.

Yes you are correct, if it's who I think it is, she has been hiding letterboxes for years. Some of her letterboxes are at the posted coordinates, and others offer the letterbox directional method. In fact, her latest letterbox differs only from mine, in that it contains a hand made stamp. She ripped my LB because I used a store bought stamp, and the title of the LB didn't match the stamp theme? My letterbox may not have been up the her standards, but it certainly met GC.com requirements.

Yes, I agree that the topic isn't specifically about my letterbox per se, but why throw me and my letterbox under the bus? One would think the L0ne R would have acquired some forum etiquette and consideration to fellow geocachers after over 1000 forum posts. I would have been extremely impressed if she had emailed me directly and offered helpful suggestions. Instead she chose to denigrate my letterbox to try and make her point.

I was actually trying to do something positive for our hobby by publishing different cache icons in the Simcoe Forest Tottenham Tract to entice geocachers to this area. It's a fantastic tract of land with many entrances and parking areas. We are extremely fortunate in this part of Ontario as the Simcoe County Forests actually encourage and promote Orienteering and Geocaching on their web site.

7.5k · June 29, 2013

After reading the L0ne R's initial post, my first reaction was to examine the L0ne R's repository of published hides for letterbox guidance. Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

She reportedly has been hiding letterbox hybrids since 2002, perhaps under another username. Although it was unfortunate that your hide was mentioned specifically, the thread really isn't about it at all, but just a general discussion.

I've been planting hybrids with handcarved stamps since 2002 with very good results.

The only time a cacher took one of my stamps is when I didn't label the stamp and didn't put a note in the box. BTW he brought it back to me when I contacted him, so I can say I've never lost a stamp to a swag trade in 9 years of planting hybrids.

Yes you are correct, if it's who I think it is, she has been hiding letterboxes for years. Some of her letterboxes are at the posted coordinates, and others offer the letterbox directional method. In fact, her latest letterbox differs only from mine, in that it contains a hand made stamp. She ripped my LB because I used a store bought stamp, and the title of the LB didn't match the stamp theme? My letterbox may not have been up the her standards, but it certainly met GC.com requirements.

Yes, I agree that the topic isn't specifically about my letterbox per se, but why throw me and my letterbox under the bus? One would think the L0ne R would have acquired some forum etiquette and consideration to fellow geocachers after over 1000 forum posts. I would have been extremely impressed if she had emailed me directly and offered helpful suggestions. Instead she chose to denigrate my letterbox to try and make her point.

I was actually trying to do something positive for our hobby by publishing different cache icons in the Simcoe Forest Tottenham Tract to entice geocachers to this area. It's a fantastic tract of land with many entrances and parking areas. We are extremely fortunate in this part of Ontario as the Simcoe County Forests actually encourage and promote Orienteering and Geocaching on their web site.

I apologize for that. I wanted to provide a real example but didn't mention the location, the cache owner, or the GC#. Yes, I know that people will sleuth.

It was the, yet again, wording in the description that sent me in a tizzy...."There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." So at the heat of the moment I wrote my newest LBH rant. I quoted that line because I've seen it all too often. My interpretation is 'Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything". Why else would cache owners present a letterbox enthusiast with a mass produced commercial stamp if they respect their hobby and their ethusiasm for a unique stamp. You probably did not mean to insult me personally, and I did not mean to insult you personally.

5.6k · June 29, 2013

It was the, yet again, wording in the description that sent me in a tizzy...."There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." So at the heat of the moment I wrote my newest LBH rant. I quoted that line because I've seen it all too often. My interpretation is 'Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything". Why else would cache owners present a letterbox enthusiast with a mass produced commercial stamp if they respect their hobby and their ethusiasm for a unique stamp. You probably did not mean to insult me personally, and I did not mean to insult you personally.

It's been my experience (somewhat limited I'll admit) that letterboxes rarely have handcarved stamps. So if that's the only reason you look for letterboxes or LBH, you will continually be disappointed. Most cachers who place LBH's aren't dedicated letterboxers, why do they have to be held to a standard that letterboxers aren't?

Edited June 29, 2013 by The Jester

June 29, 2013

The Lone R

I apologize for that. I wanted to provide a real example but didn't mention the location, the cache owner, or the GC#. Yes, I know that people will sleuth.

It was the, yet again, wording in the description that sent me in a tizzy...."There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." So at the heat of the moment I wrote my newest LBH rant. I quoted that line because I've seen it all too often. My interpretation is 'Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything". Why else would cache owners present a letterbox enthusiast with a mass produced commercial stamp if they respect their hobby and their ethusiasm for a unique stamp. You probably did not mean to insult me personally, and I did not mean to insult you personally.

You may as well have mentioned my name and the GC# as any geocacher could simply search the cache title. In your initial rant, you assumed that it was a store bought stamp, but nowhere on the cache page does it state that fact. I could have made some type of toy story stamp. Yes, you were right in your assumption that it was a store bought stamp, and in fact I purchased multiple stamps for replacement as needed. I simply don't have the talent or the desire to make a homemade stamp. I find it inconceivable that your entire rant was due to me placing a store bought stamp in a letterbox. If you really wanted to rant why didn't you choose the cacher who used the following description in their letterbox....

""No trinkets please. No trading. There are 2 stamps in the box. Do not take them. They should remain in the box.""

....Oh wait, isn't that quote from one of your letterbox hybrid caches? Believe me, my intent was not to insult you, and I'm absolutely dumbfounded that you suggest such a thing. I have never written a derogatory geocaching log in my 5700 finds, and in fact I've never posted a needs maintenance on a cache. If I have any concerns regarding a geocache, I will send the CO an email with a suggestion or a heads up. I just wish that you had the common courtesy to contact me privately with your concerns. I would have been most receptive to any suggestion to improve my letterbox. You on the other hand decide to take your rant to a public forum with thousands of potential viewers. I will admit that you have successfully instilled in me a strong distaste for letterboxing.

5k · June 29, 2013

After reading the L0ne R's initial post, my first reaction was to examine the L0ne R's repository of published hides for letterbox guidance. Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

She reportedly has been hiding letterbox hybrids since 2002, perhaps under another username. Although it was unfortunate that your hide was mentioned specifically, the thread really isn't about it at all, but just a general discussion.

I've been planting hybrids with handcarved stamps since 2002 with very good results.

The only time a cacher took one of my stamps is when I didn't label the stamp and didn't put a note in the box. BTW he brought it back to me when I contacted him, so I can say I've never lost a stamp to a swag trade in 9 years of planting hybrids.

Yes you are correct, if it's who I think it is, she has been hiding letterboxes for years. Some of her letterboxes are at the posted coordinates, and others offer the letterbox directional method. In fact, her latest letterbox differs only from mine, in that it contains a hand made stamp. She ripped my LB because I used a store bought stamp, and the title of the LB didn't match the stamp theme? My letterbox may not have been up the her standards, but it certainly met GC.com requirements.

Yes, I agree that the topic isn't specifically about my letterbox per se, but why throw me and my letterbox under the bus? One would think the L0ne R would have acquired some forum etiquette and consideration to fellow geocachers after over 1000 forum posts. I would have been extremely impressed if she had emailed me directly and offered helpful suggestions. Instead she chose to denigrate my letterbox to try and make her point.

I was actually trying to do something positive for our hobby by publishing different cache icons in the Simcoe Forest Tottenham Tract to entice geocachers to this area. It's a fantastic tract of land with many entrances and parking areas. We are extremely fortunate in this part of Ontario as the Simcoe County Forests actually encourage and promote Orienteering and Geocaching on their web site.

I apologize for that. I wanted to provide a real example but didn't mention the location, the cache owner, or the GC#. Yes, I know that people will sleuth.

It was the, yet again, wording in the description that sent me in a tizzy...."There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." So at the heat of the moment I wrote my newest LBH rant. I quoted that line because I've seen it all too often. My interpretation is 'Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything". Why else would cache owners present a letterbox enthusiast with a mass produced commercial stamp if they respect their hobby and their ethusiasm for a unique stamp. You probably did not mean to insult me personally, and I did not mean to insult you personally.

A geocache gets published for the entire community and you take it as a personal insult?

People of a certain profession could have a field day with that one.

7.5k · June 29, 2013

After reading the L0ne R's initial post, my first reaction was to examine the L0ne R's repository of published hides for letterbox guidance. Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

She reportedly has been hiding letterbox hybrids since 2002, perhaps under another username. Although it was unfortunate that your hide was mentioned specifically, the thread really isn't about it at all, but just a general discussion.

I've been planting hybrids with handcarved stamps since 2002 with very good results.

The only time a cacher took one of my stamps is when I didn't label the stamp and didn't put a note in the box. BTW he brought it back to me when I contacted him, so I can say I've never lost a stamp to a swag trade in 9 years of planting hybrids.

Yes you are correct, if it's who I think it is, she has been hiding letterboxes for years. Some of her letterboxes are at the posted coordinates, and others offer the letterbox directional method. In fact, her latest letterbox differs only from mine, in that it contains a hand made stamp. She ripped my LB because I used a store bought stamp, and the title of the LB didn't match the stamp theme? My letterbox may not have been up the her standards, but it certainly met GC.com requirements.

Yes, I agree that the topic isn't specifically about my letterbox per se, but why throw me and my letterbox under the bus? One would think the L0ne R would have acquired some forum etiquette and consideration to fellow geocachers after over 1000 forum posts. I would have been extremely impressed if she had emailed me directly and offered helpful suggestions. Instead she chose to denigrate my letterbox to try and make her point.

I was actually trying to do something positive for our hobby by publishing different cache icons in the Simcoe Forest Tottenham Tract to entice geocachers to this area. It's a fantastic tract of land with many entrances and parking areas. We are extremely fortunate in this part of Ontario as the Simcoe County Forests actually encourage and promote Orienteering and Geocaching on their web site.

I apologize for that. I wanted to provide a real example but didn't mention the location, the cache owner, or the GC#. Yes, I know that people will sleuth.

It was the, yet again, wording in the description that sent me in a tizzy...."There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." So at the heat of the moment I wrote my newest LBH rant. I quoted that line because I've seen it all too often. My interpretation is 'Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything". Why else would cache owners present a letterbox enthusiast with a mass produced commercial stamp if they respect their hobby and their ethusiasm for a unique stamp. You probably did not mean to insult me personally, and I did not mean to insult you personally.

A geocache gets published for the entire community and you take it as a personal insult?

The CO was referring to "letterbox enthusiasts" and threw me, a letterbox enthusiast, a bone.I found that part insulting.

June 29, 2013

After reading the L0ne R's initial post, my first reaction was to examine the L0ne R's repository of published hides for letterbox guidance. Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

She reportedly has been hiding letterbox hybrids since 2002, perhaps under another username. Although it was unfortunate that your hide was mentioned specifically, the thread really isn't about it at all, but just a general discussion.

I've been planting hybrids with handcarved stamps since 2002 with very good results.

The only time a cacher took one of my stamps is when I didn't label the stamp and didn't put a note in the box. BTW he brought it back to me when I contacted him, so I can say I've never lost a stamp to a swag trade in 9 years of planting hybrids.

Yes you are correct, if it's who I think it is, she has been hiding letterboxes for years. Some of her letterboxes are at the posted coordinates, and others offer the letterbox directional method. In fact, her latest letterbox differs only from mine, in that it contains a hand made stamp. She ripped my LB because I used a store bought stamp, and the title of the LB didn't match the stamp theme? My letterbox may not have been up the her standards, but it certainly met GC.com requirements.

Yes, I agree that the topic isn't specifically about my letterbox per se, but why throw me and my letterbox under the bus? One would think the L0ne R would have acquired some forum etiquette and consideration to fellow geocachers after over 1000 forum posts. I would have been extremely impressed if she had emailed me directly and offered helpful suggestions. Instead she chose to denigrate my letterbox to try and make her point.

I was actually trying to do something positive for our hobby by publishing different cache icons in the Simcoe Forest Tottenham Tract to entice geocachers to this area. It's a fantastic tract of land with many entrances and parking areas. We are extremely fortunate in this part of Ontario as the Simcoe County Forests actually encourage and promote Orienteering and Geocaching on their web site.

I apologize for that. I wanted to provide a real example but didn't mention the location, the cache owner, or the GC#. Yes, I know that people will sleuth.

It was the, yet again, wording in the description that sent me in a tizzy...."There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." So at the heat of the moment I wrote my newest LBH rant. I quoted that line because I've seen it all too often. My interpretation is 'Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything". Why else would cache owners present a letterbox enthusiast with a mass produced commercial stamp if they respect their hobby and their ethusiasm for a unique stamp. You probably did not mean to insult me personally, and I did not mean to insult you personally.

A geocache gets published for the entire community and you take it as a personal insult?

The CO was referring to "letterbox enthusiasts" and threw me, a letterbox enthusiast, a bone.I found that part insulting.

You are unbelievable in your assumptions.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Lisdowney

7.5k · June 29, 2013

After reading the L0ne R's initial post, my first reaction was to examine the L0ne R's repository of published hides for letterbox guidance. Well to my astonishment, according to his profile page, he hasn't published a single cache, but has found 1735 caches.

She reportedly has been hiding letterbox hybrids since 2002, perhaps under another username. Although it was unfortunate that your hide was mentioned specifically, the thread really isn't about it at all, but just a general discussion.

I've been planting hybrids with handcarved stamps since 2002 with very good results.

The only time a cacher took one of my stamps is when I didn't label the stamp and didn't put a note in the box. BTW he brought it back to me when I contacted him, so I can say I've never lost a stamp to a swag trade in 9 years of planting hybrids.

Yes you are correct, if it's who I think it is, she has been hiding letterboxes for years. Some of her letterboxes are at the posted coordinates, and others offer the letterbox directional method. In fact, her latest letterbox differs only from mine, in that it contains a hand made stamp. She ripped my LB because I used a store bought stamp, and the title of the LB didn't match the stamp theme? My letterbox may not have been up the her standards, but it certainly met GC.com requirements.

Yes, I agree that the topic isn't specifically about my letterbox per se, but why throw me and my letterbox under the bus? One would think the L0ne R would have acquired some forum etiquette and consideration to fellow geocachers after over 1000 forum posts. I would have been extremely impressed if she had emailed me directly and offered helpful suggestions. Instead she chose to denigrate my letterbox to try and make her point.

I was actually trying to do something positive for our hobby by publishing different cache icons in the Simcoe Forest Tottenham Tract to entice geocachers to this area. It's a fantastic tract of land with many entrances and parking areas. We are extremely fortunate in this part of Ontario as the Simcoe County Forests actually encourage and promote Orienteering and Geocaching on their web site.

I apologize for that. I wanted to provide a real example but didn't mention the location, the cache owner, or the GC#. Yes, I know that people will sleuth.

It was the, yet again, wording in the description that sent me in a tizzy...."There is a "Toy Story" stamp and pad for the letterbox enthusiasts." So at the heat of the moment I wrote my newest LBH rant. I quoted that line because I've seen it all too often. My interpretation is 'Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything". Why else would cache owners present a letterbox enthusiast with a mass produced commercial stamp if they respect their hobby and their ethusiasm for a unique stamp. You probably did not mean to insult me personally, and I did not mean to insult you personally.

A geocache gets published for the entire community and you take it as a personal insult?

The CO was referring to "letterbox enthusiasts" and threw me, a letterbox enthusiast, a bone.I found that part insulting.

You are unbelievable in your assumptions.

My apologies Lisdowney. I re-read my OP and yes, in the heat of the moment I did provide the title of the cache. I should not have done that. My intent was to show that a Toy Story stamp did not match the theme about mail, not to 'out' your cache. I will ask that the forum topic be closed so that we stop discussing the cache. Again my apologies.

14k · June 29, 2013

In another thread there was a discussion of the tightening up of the requirement that specific coordinates play a role in every geocache. That rule gets in the way of some interesting ideas, and seems almost confusing in the face of the letterbox hybrid. I wonder if the letterbox hybrid cache type might be useful as the type that doesn't have that GPSr requirement. Instead of continuing to push for the purity of geocaches by requiring a GPSr at some stage to find every one, perhaps the letterbox hybrid could be the "escape clause" to provide a place for any cache that can be found without exactal coordinates.

The GPS requirement is outdated. Many cachers do not use a GPS anymore, as the smartphone app pulls up a photo of the area and shows the location.

Semantics.

A smartphone app uses a GPS to display a photo of the area and location of the cache, therefore the "use of a GPSr at some stage" still applies.

An additional point: How current is that photo? I was cache last weekend in an area that is newly developed - some photos showed houses and the park, some showed construction, one the orginial "wilderness" - one site even changed with the zoom level.

There are certainly some caches where satellite photos of the area won't help much in trying to navigate to the cache. There was one I used to use as example that is located along a long twisty road in Costa Rica (there are a lot of long twisty roads in Costa Rica) that goes through a rain forest. Most of the area withing 20 miles of the cache was completely obscured by clouds. The satellite imagery has recently been updated so that the area is mostly cloud free, but the resolution still isn't good enough that one could identify the tree the cache is in. Although satellite imagery is quite good in many places, there is still much of the world where it's just not good enough to rely on for finding a cache. I came across a page on the Google maps site awhile back that had some information about their satellite imagery and it indicated one should expect that much of it may 1-2 years old, and I've encountered quite a bit that is from 2009. A lot can change in that time.

21.9k · June 29, 2013

Closing thread at OP's request.

Grandfather the Letterbox Hybrid type

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