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Keeping logs dry


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We get a lot of moisture here in the Pacific Northwest and I'm constantly running across wet and damaged logs. I carry a couple RITR log books with me and leave a sheet or two when a log is too wet to sign, but I'm surprised how many caches use cheap ZipLoc knock-offs that easily get ripped and don't seal. There are other brands that are decent, but is spending an extra buck or two too much?

 

As I prepare a few themed caches to place, I'm consider what other ways to keep logs dry. Even RITR paper doesn't hold up well in standing water, so keeping the water out is key. Seems with most lock-n-locks the seals dry out. Same with the Bison tubes, though I've seen some COs put extra seals in there (good idea). But as I enjoy hiking and backpacking when out caching, I see no point in hiding micros and nanos in the large open woods. So I'm thinking ammo cans are best, but have seen some tackle boxes that look like ammo cans. Pretty much the same build, but constructed of plastic so won't rust (though ammo cans typically go years without rust).

 

Any other ideas? Of course picking a good, dry location is key but not always an option out here.

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Ammo cans seem the best to me, not necessarily because they seal better than lock n locks, but because the lid can shelter the contents while the log is signed. Having said, that, I haven't hidden any ammocans (yet) due to the price. Lock n locks are simply cheaper. Lighter too, which makes it easier to carry to and from GZ.

 

From my experience, caches often get water inside when people open them in the rain. Not much you can do about that, but at least with ammocans the lid is attached and can shelter the contents. With lock n locks, it's all too easy for people to lay the lid either face down (which gets it dirty and wet on the inside) or face up (which gets it wet on the inside). It's also common for dirt to get in the lock n lock seal, at which point the seal becomes less effective.

 

Adding dessicant packages can help in any container. Also hiding your caches at the end of a long hike! Park and grabs need more maintenance no matter what container!

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So I'm thinking ammo cans are best, but have seen some tackle boxes that look like ammo cans. Pretty much the same build, but constructed of plastic so won't rust (though ammo cans typically go years without rust).

 

I place caches in central Florida. Wetness an issue here as well. Ammo cans are best.

 

I've never seen a dry tackle box cache, or a even a dry 2 year old pelican case. I'm assuming that it's a function of the tension on the clamp, which is modest on any plastic box. The tension on an ammo can clamp is considerable. Plus the ammo can has an overhang on the lid. (I recently archived a hide of mine in a Pelican brand case -> wet).

 

In Florida, I consider the maintenance free life of an ammo can in a moist area to be ~ 6 years. After that, the rust may be bad enough on the bottom weld that it will start to leak. A good initial prep and paint job will help.

 

Lock & Locks can last quite a few years here, but I expect to do maintenance on a 1 - 2 year interval. Remove the seal, wipe the grunge off it completely, clean the groove (Q-tip) clean out the interior. Here, that seal will not "dry out" - it will develop a growth of black grunge that wicks moisture. In one year sunlight will damage the plastic enough that the tabs break off , so I always camo tape or paint the lids for UV protection.

 

caches use cheap ZipLoc knock-offs

 

If the container is functioning properly, the brand of baggie for the log doesn't matter. I don't worry about it myself. I only bag logs in ammo cans to make them easy to find.

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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Our larger woods hides are all ammo cans.

We never found a plastic equivalent that lasted. Many either had poor sprue breaks, seam issues, or had critters chewing 'em.

We use hvy dty freezer bags to separate the log from swag in larger andsmaller hides. If a bag is needed to keep water out, the container's poor.

 

Product testing a snap-lock Plano Stow-Away (3pk at Home Depot) and it's now four Months in the top of the woodpile with a dry, oversized construction paper log. It gets opened/closed maybe twice a week from various family members, ages 10+. It's in full Sun. Want to see how the snap clasp holds up.

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In wet areas I've had good luck with these. Real Nalgene wide mouth bottles are on the expensive side but this brand is $5 at Target (and I got a bunch for $2 each on Woot, incl. shipping). For these containers I need to cut down the logbook so it is easily removable and find smallish trade items, but they've stayed dry even submerged in flood areas.

 

94a97a09-c31a-4fee-9112-c23b8681c6ac.jpg?rnd=0.3008321

 

 

Nalgene also makes straight sided jars that are inexpensive and I've had a few hidden directly exposed to weather for 5+ years and they've stood up well. A little camo tape or paint will take care of the high visibility color. They come in several sizes ranging from micro to a smallish regular.

Edited by briansnat
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As mentioned above, baggies will not keep your log dry. It's all about the container. I like the idea of using the baggie strictly to make the log book more noticeable in the cache, that's about the only thing they're good for.

 

I've also been told, but don't know enough about them, that the silica gel packs aren't very helpful in caches either, as it's hard to get one that's big enough to absorb enough moisture.

 

Moral of the story is to use a good container instead of worrying about how to keep the log dry in a crummy one.

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

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As mentioned above, baggies will not keep your log dry. It's all about the container.

 

Exactly. I just came back from some caching in cottage country and 95% of those caches were wet. Lots of "lock & locks" but they were the fake knock-off kind. Not the authentic brand with the Lock & Lock seal on the lid. The rest that weren't fake lock & locks were dollar store containers. I have yet to see any dollar store container that was watertight.

 

The only re-purposed container that I've seen do a decent job is a peanut butter plastic jar. Didn't see one of those while in cottage country and didn't see an ammo can either. It's all about using a quality watertight container to start with. The baggie is just a temporary back up. A good baggie lasts maybe a couple of weeks before the zip seal deteriorates or the baggie develops tears and holes.

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I'd go with an ammo can, I spray paint mine (Mainly to hide all the military markings and give it a bit of camo) But I also spend a bit of extra money too get a spray paint that kills rust, and protects metal from any future rust, I find this works great on the ammo cans, and as the paint is rust proof, You'd go many, many more years than usual without having to replace the container, or give it a fresh coat of paint. I'd go and see if they have any at your local hardware store because it works for my caches in the wilderness (one of which is in a constantly damp place and the inside is bone dry, and there are no signs of rust. Hope I gave you something to look into.

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We get a lot of moisture here in the Pacific Northwest and I'm constantly running across wet and damaged logs. I carry a couple RITR log books with me and leave a sheet or two when a log is too wet to sign, but I'm surprised how many caches use cheap ZipLoc knock-offs that easily get ripped and don't seal. There are other brands that are decent, but is spending an extra buck or two too much?

 

As I prepare a few themed caches to place, I'm consider what other ways to keep logs dry. Even RITR paper doesn't hold up well in standing water, so keeping the water out is key. Seems with most lock-n-locks the seals dry out. Same with the Bison tubes, though I've seen some COs put extra seals in there (good idea). But as I enjoy hiking and backpacking when out caching, I see no point in hiding micros and nanos in the large open woods. So I'm thinking ammo cans are best, but have seen some tackle boxes that look like ammo cans. Pretty much the same build, but constructed of plastic so won't rust (though ammo cans typically go years without rust).

 

Any other ideas? Of course picking a good, dry location is key but not always an option out here.

Rain paper does hold up geocachers need to use pencils for it to be truly effective. I know the feeling i have been across so many wet logs or destroyed.

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The container is the key. Don't rely on a zip-lok baggie to keep the log dry.

 

Ammo cans are absolutely the best.

 

We've also been using small Plano brand tackle boxes for a couple years.

 

225395_ts.jpg

 

They lock tight on three side with a sturdy hinge on the other. The lid seals with a rubber gasket. We get ours at Bass Pro Shop.

 

Works great.

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I'd go with an ammo can, I spray paint mine (Mainly to hide all the military markings and give it a bit of camo) But I also spend a bit of extra money too get a spray paint that kills rust, and protects metal from any future rust, I find this works great on the ammo cans, and as the paint is rust proof, You'd go many, many more years than usual without having to replace the container, or give it a fresh coat of paint. I'd go and see if they have any at your local hardware store because it works for my caches in the wilderness (one of which is in a constantly damp place and the inside is bone dry, and there are no signs of rust. Hope I gave you something to look into.

 

Care to tell us which brand of paint you're using?

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...but is spending an extra buck or two too much?

Film cans are proof that spending an extra buck or two is, too much. <_<

 

So I'm thinking ammo cans are best

As an ordained minister of the Holy Ammocanitarian Church, you have my blessings. :lol:

 

but have seen some tackle boxes that look like ammo cans.

I tried one as a dry box on my 'yak. It sucked. :mad:

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

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As an experiment I've had an ammo can cache completely submerged in a river and it has started leaking after 2 years. However the inner lock n lock has kept dry. I would not think of using bags. People place pens and pencils in them, poking holes and rendering them useless. They also tend to get caught in the seal while closing, causing water to get in. Film cans and altoid tins work great as long as you put them inside of an ammo can or a lock n lock.

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

My ammo can cache got lots of water inside recently, ruining most of the contents, when a finder closed one of the ziplock bags in the ammo can's lid, and then the monsoon hit. The good news is, the cache log was also in a ziplock, so that almost cancels out the bad news. :anicute:

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if you can't safely hide an Ammobox (or other good quality container), the location you picked is WRONG.

 

wow jasta, Plano brand tackle boxes

that one looks like good quality, how much are they ? and where do you get them ?

 

one thing that always come to my mind is this:

all outdoor containers made for proffecional electronics and such

are NOT made 100% water tight, since that just dont exist,

water will ALWAYS find a way to get in..

(some even geocache when it rains)

 

they designed a moisture vent into the container, so it can get out !!

look up GORE membrane vent

 

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/venting/protective/protective_vents_telecommunications.html

more here:

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/venting/protective/protective_vents_telecom_why_vent.html?isAjax=true

 

the screw in vents can easily be mouinted in many geocaching containers:

http://www.gore.com/MungoBlobs/837/325/GORE_PTV_ScrewIn_Vents_en.pdf

 

the much simpler adhesive vents can be used on smaller things,

just drill a little hole and then stick it on

http://www.gore.com/MungoBlobs/946/999/GORE_PTV_Adhesive_Vents_QA_en.pdf

Edited by OZ2CPU
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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

The key to that quote, "If you must use a baggie to keep your log dry, your container has already failed at a very basic level", is the word "must". That quote is not a call to stop using baggies. A heavy duty ziplock can act as an effective, temporary measure to protect a log, should something serious happen to the container. Rather, that quote is an admonition against justifying the use of really crappy containers such as Altoids tins, black & gray film cans or hide-a-keys, by placing the log in a baggie. Baggies fail at a fairly rapid pace. The repeated opening and closing, the removing and replacing of the log, and the occasional pokey thing such as pens or pencils placed inside, all limit the effective life of a baggie. Use baggies, if you want, as a possibly effective added layer of protection in a quality container. Just don't rely on them in a crappy container.

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

The key to that quote, "If you must use a baggie to keep your log dry, your container has already failed at a very basic level", is the word "must". That quote is not a call to stop using baggies. A heavy duty ziplock can act as an effective, temporary measure to protect a log, should something serious happen to the container. Rather, that quote is an admonition against justifying the use of really crappy containers such as Altoids tins, black & gray film cans or hide-a-keys, by placing the log in a baggie. Baggies fail at a fairly rapid pace. The repeated opening and closing, the removing and replacing of the log, and the occasional pokey thing such as pens or pencils placed inside, all limit the effective life of a baggie. Use baggies, if you want, as a possibly effective added layer of protection in a quality container. Just don't rely on them in a crappy container.

 

You like talking about 'crappy containers' a lot, but there ARE times when these tins and canisters actually DO suffice and there is little need for something with o-rings and tight seals. I've found plenty of caches in areas that are not well-sheltered and the worst they face is some high humidity in the summer time. I've found a tiny Altoid-stuck-to-the-underside-of-an-exterior-electrical-box cache that has been around since 2004 and even though the tin itself is bent, rusty and cracked, the log inside was bone dry...and it wasn't even inside a baggie. Yeah, there may not have been a lot of thought put into the container itself, but there certainly ARE times when even the "crappiest" containers hold up remarkably well even after several years.

 

For me the only 'crappy container' is one that is inappropriate for the hide location.

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

The key to that quote, "If you must use a baggie to keep your log dry, your container has already failed at a very basic level", is the word "must". That quote is not a call to stop using baggies. A heavy duty ziplock can act as an effective, temporary measure to protect a log, should something serious happen to the container. Rather, that quote is an admonition against justifying the use of really crappy containers such as Altoids tins, black & gray film cans or hide-a-keys, by placing the log in a baggie. Baggies fail at a fairly rapid pace. The repeated opening and closing, the removing and replacing of the log, and the occasional pokey thing such as pens or pencils placed inside, all limit the effective life of a baggie. Use baggies, if you want, as a possibly effective added layer of protection in a quality container. Just don't rely on them in a crappy container.

 

You like talking about 'crappy containers' a lot, but there ARE times when these tins and canisters actually DO suffice and there is little need for something with o-rings and tight seals. I've found plenty of caches in areas that are not well-sheltered and the worst they face is some high humidity in the summer time. I've found a tiny Altoid-stuck-to-the-underside-of-an-exterior-electrical-box cache that has been around since 2004 and even though the tin itself is bent, rusty and cracked, the log inside was bone dry...and it wasn't even inside a baggie. Yeah, there may not have been a lot of thought put into the container itself, but there certainly ARE times when even the "crappiest" containers hold up remarkably well even after several years.

 

For me the only 'crappy container' is one that is inappropriate for the hide location.

Assuming I'm reading this right, the only reason the log was dry on the day you found it was because the day was dry. If the container is "bent, rusty and cracked" it offers no protection whatsoever to the contents of that container. Had you gone on a damp day, then the log would have matched the damp conditions. Placing a crappy container in an area which is protected from direct contact with rain is, perhaps, a good start, but moisture does not only come from above. It may have actually helped, in your case, that there was no baggie involved, since a baggie might actually retain any moisture which the crappy container allowed in. Since, in your case, the log itself was essentially exposed to the elements, it is allowed to dry out during dry conditions.

 

My thinking is this: A container's primary purpose is to protect its contents. It doesn't matter if those contents are gobs of high end swag, or just a scrap of paper. The container should protect them. A bent, rusty and cracked container does not protect its contents from anything. Ergo, it is a crappy container. I would argue further that something like a mini Altoids tin is inevitably going to become rusty, and quite possibly bent and cracked, and as such, being so likely to fail at its primary purpose, it sucks from day one.

 

The hider of that crappy cache had a choice. Place a quality container in that location, or place a crappy container in that location, they deliberately chose the crappy one, which I find pretty sad. I actually agree with your comment "For me the only 'crappy container' is one that is inappropriate for the hide location." I just think one step farther, in believing that any container which is not waterproof is inappropriate for use outdoors. By this measure, any non waterproof container, used outdoors, is crappy.

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

The key to that quote, "If you must use a baggie to keep your log dry, your container has already failed at a very basic level", is the word "must". That quote is not a call to stop using baggies. A heavy duty ziplock can act as an effective, temporary measure to protect a log, should something serious happen to the container. Rather, that quote is an admonition against justifying the use of really crappy containers such as Altoids tins, black & gray film cans or hide-a-keys, by placing the log in a baggie. Baggies fail at a fairly rapid pace. The repeated opening and closing, the removing and replacing of the log, and the occasional pokey thing such as pens or pencils placed inside, all limit the effective life of a baggie. Use baggies, if you want, as a possibly effective added layer of protection in a quality container. Just don't rely on them in a crappy container.

 

You like talking about 'crappy containers' a lot, but there ARE times when these tins and canisters actually DO suffice and there is little need for something with o-rings and tight seals. I've found plenty of caches in areas that are not well-sheltered and the worst they face is some high humidity in the summer time. I've found a tiny Altoid-stuck-to-the-underside-of-an-exterior-electrical-box cache that has been around since 2004 and even though the tin itself is bent, rusty and cracked, the log inside was bone dry...and it wasn't even inside a baggie. Yeah, there may not have been a lot of thought put into the container itself, but there certainly ARE times when even the "crappiest" containers hold up remarkably well even after several years.

 

For me the only 'crappy container' is one that is inappropriate for the hide location.

 

I say, encourage people to hide better quality containers no matter where they are hidden, protected or not.

 

But yes, sometimes but very rarely, Altoids and key hides are protected in a shelter and may last a few months or a year without trouble. A baggie in that case fills up the tiny space unnecessarily. CR is right though, if you are relying on the baggie to keep the log dry the poor quality container is in the wrong location.

Edited by L0ne R
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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

The key to that quote, "If you must use a baggie to keep your log dry, your container has already failed at a very basic level", is the word "must". That quote is not a call to stop using baggies. A heavy duty ziplock can act as an effective, temporary measure to protect a log, should something serious happen to the container. Rather, that quote is an admonition against justifying the use of really crappy containers such as Altoids tins, black & gray film cans or hide-a-keys, by placing the log in a baggie. Baggies fail at a fairly rapid pace. The repeated opening and closing, the removing and replacing of the log, and the occasional pokey thing such as pens or pencils placed inside, all limit the effective life of a baggie. Use baggies, if you want, as a possibly effective added layer of protection in a quality container. Just don't rely on them in a crappy container.

 

You like talking about 'crappy containers' a lot, but there ARE times when these tins and canisters actually DO suffice and there is little need for something with o-rings and tight seals. I've found plenty of caches in areas that are not well-sheltered and the worst they face is some high humidity in the summer time. I've found a tiny Altoid-stuck-to-the-underside-of-an-exterior-electrical-box cache that has been around since 2004 and even though the tin itself is bent, rusty and cracked, the log inside was bone dry...and it wasn't even inside a baggie. Yeah, there may not have been a lot of thought put into the container itself, but there certainly ARE times when even the "crappiest" containers hold up remarkably well even after several years.

 

For me the only 'crappy container' is one that is inappropriate for the hide location.

 

True. Almost any container is fine in some environments. Last month I found a log ( no container or ziplock ) under a rock in the desert. It had been soaked a few times but the desert dried it out and it was fine.

Check this link :

 

Using waterproof or write-in-the-rain paper there is almost no such thing as a bad container, as least for micros which only contain a log.

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

The key to that quote, "If you must use a baggie to keep your log dry, your container has already failed at a very basic level", is the word "must". That quote is not a call to stop using baggies. A heavy duty ziplock can act as an effective, temporary measure to protect a log, should something serious happen to the container. Rather, that quote is an admonition against justifying the use of really crappy containers such as Altoids tins, black & gray film cans or hide-a-keys, by placing the log in a baggie. Baggies fail at a fairly rapid pace. The repeated opening and closing, the removing and replacing of the log, and the occasional pokey thing such as pens or pencils placed inside, all limit the effective life of a baggie. Use baggies, if you want, as a possibly effective added layer of protection in a quality container. Just don't rely on them in a crappy container.

 

You like talking about 'crappy containers' a lot, but there ARE times when these tins and canisters actually DO suffice and there is little need for something with o-rings and tight seals. I've found plenty of caches in areas that are not well-sheltered and the worst they face is some high humidity in the summer time. I've found a tiny Altoid-stuck-to-the-underside-of-an-exterior-electrical-box cache that has been around since 2004 and even though the tin itself is bent, rusty and cracked, the log inside was bone dry...and it wasn't even inside a baggie. Yeah, there may not have been a lot of thought put into the container itself, but there certainly ARE times when even the "crappiest" containers hold up remarkably well even after several years.

 

For me the only 'crappy container' is one that is inappropriate for the hide location.

Assuming I'm reading this right, the only reason the log was dry on the day you found it was because the day was dry. If the container is "bent, rusty and cracked" it offers no protection whatsoever to the contents of that container. Had you gone on a damp day, then the log would have matched the damp conditions. Placing a crappy container in an area which is protected from direct contact with rain is, perhaps, a good start, but moisture does not only come from above.

 

Why do you assume that? Did I say anything at all about the weather conditions that day? To be honest, I don't recall exactly what the conditions were that day or even the week or so prior to my finding it. We've had record rain this year, but I can't truly say whether that week had rain or not.

 

HOWEVER...

 

First, can it not be reasonably assumed that when paper does get wet, whatever ink exists on the paper tends to diffuse and spread out?

Second, can it not be reasonably assumed that this ink, once the paper dries out, will remain in that spread-out condition from that point forward?

I can personally testify to the fact that, in this particular case, the signatures on the log were clear and sharp...with only minor wear on the creases and edges of the paper itself. This would indicate to me the paper remained relatively dry for an extended period of time. Obviously, this being Georgia, the summer days get humid and the paper likely grew limp...but I saw no evidence that the paper had gotten truly wet or even significantly damp. Also obviously, the cache was over 8 years old and the log I signed only had a handful of signatures on it, so at some point the log had been replaced, but I can be reasonably certain the new log had been in there over a span of time that would have included numerous weather conditions - cold, windy, rainy, hot, humid, dry...the gamut, if you will.

 

So all this, to me, adds up to the fact that despite the container being what appeared to be not-so-well-planned, I actually wouldn't call it crappy for the purposes of protecting the log inside. Without a doubt, something with a tight seal and better weather resistance surely would have held up beautifully...but maybe, in this case (and others like it), that tiny little Altoids container, though ugly, did its job and thus was not, in my book, "crappy".

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The container is the key. Don't rely on a zip-lok baggie to keep the log dry.

 

Ammo cans are absolutely the best.

 

We've also been using small Plano brand tackle boxes for a couple years.

 

225395_ts.jpg

 

They lock tight on three side with a sturdy hinge on the other. The lid seals with a rubber gasket. We get ours at Bass Pro Shop.

 

Works great.

 

I bought a three pack of these in three different sizes. I think I paid $12. One I actually used for tackle and the other two (smallest and largest) were painted and ready to plant as geocaches. Though I have yet to hide them, they seem to do a good job sealing out moisture. My concern is durability. I'll see in a year or two how they hold up.

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

The key to that quote, "If you must use a baggie to keep your log dry, your container has already failed at a very basic level", is the word "must". That quote is not a call to stop using baggies. A heavy duty ziplock can act as an effective, temporary measure to protect a log, should something serious happen to the container. Rather, that quote is an admonition against justifying the use of really crappy containers such as Altoids tins, black & gray film cans or hide-a-keys, by placing the log in a baggie. Baggies fail at a fairly rapid pace. The repeated opening and closing, the removing and replacing of the log, and the occasional pokey thing such as pens or pencils placed inside, all limit the effective life of a baggie. Use baggies, if you want, as a possibly effective added layer of protection in a quality container. Just don't rely on them in a crappy container.

 

You like talking about 'crappy containers' a lot, but there ARE times when these tins and canisters actually DO suffice and there is little need for something with o-rings and tight seals. I've found plenty of caches in areas that are not well-sheltered and the worst they face is some high humidity in the summer time. I've found a tiny Altoid-stuck-to-the-underside-of-an-exterior-electrical-box cache that has been around since 2004 and even though the tin itself is bent, rusty and cracked, the log inside was bone dry...and it wasn't even inside a baggie. Yeah, there may not have been a lot of thought put into the container itself, but there certainly ARE times when even the "crappiest" containers hold up remarkably well even after several years.

 

For me the only 'crappy container' is one that is inappropriate for the hide location.

Assuming I'm reading this right, the only reason the log was dry on the day you found it was because the day was dry.

 

Why do you assume that?

Because of two things you mentioned.

 

First, because you claimed that the log was dry. Presumably, the log was made out of paper. Paper has a rather distinct property of absorbing moisture. I suspect that this is why companies use it for manufacturing paper towels. Granted, some paper is better at absorbing moisture than other paper, but if the final product is unsealed, processed wood pulp, it is going to absorb moisture to some degree. It should be noted that products such as Rite in the Rain paper are not, strictly speaking, made of paper, as the term is commonly understood.

 

Second, because you claimed that the container was bent, rusty and cracked. A container which is bent, rusty and cracked is not a barrier. The contents of a bent, rusty and cracked container are exposed to the environment in which the container was placed. Even in a so called 'protected' spot, the contents are still going to match the environment. The only real difference is that a protected environment will not be directly struck by falling moisture, such as rain or snow. That does not mean that there is no moisture there. Had there been no moisture there, at any point in the cache's life, I'm thinking it would not be rusty. Humidity and ground vapors are not as affected by gravity as rain drops are, and are perfectly capable of rising upward and even drifting inward to get to a protected location.

 

Since you claimed that the container was no longer viable, (cracked), and since you claimed the log was dry, it seems like a valid assumption. As to ink running when a log gets damp, I've found this to be true for gel type ink. Not so much for other inks.

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As someone ( Drat19 ? ) most famously said " If you feel you must use a ziplock bag your container has already failed on a fundamental level".

I think this is true but I still put all my logs in ziplocks. My ammo can logs are in ziplocks which in turn are in film cans with " LOG " marked on top.....you can't be too careful in the swamp.

 

I've seen that mentioned and I have to completely disagree with it. Baggies are just one extra layer of protection. The container can be the best waterproof thing that exists but it's still not going to help when someone happens to not shut the container properly. ^_^

The key to that quote, "If you must use a baggie to keep your log dry, your container has already failed at a very basic level", is the word "must". That quote is not a call to stop using baggies. A heavy duty ziplock can act as an effective, temporary measure to protect a log, should something serious happen to the container. Rather, that quote is an admonition against justifying the use of really crappy containers such as Altoids tins, black & gray film cans or hide-a-keys, by placing the log in a baggie. Baggies fail at a fairly rapid pace. The repeated opening and closing, the removing and replacing of the log, and the occasional pokey thing such as pens or pencils placed inside, all limit the effective life of a baggie. Use baggies, if you want, as a possibly effective added layer of protection in a quality container. Just don't rely on them in a crappy container.

 

You like talking about 'crappy containers' a lot, but there ARE times when these tins and canisters actually DO suffice and there is little need for something with o-rings and tight seals. I've found plenty of caches in areas that are not well-sheltered and the worst they face is some high humidity in the summer time. I've found a tiny Altoid-stuck-to-the-underside-of-an-exterior-electrical-box cache that has been around since 2004 and even though the tin itself is bent, rusty and cracked, the log inside was bone dry...and it wasn't even inside a baggie. Yeah, there may not have been a lot of thought put into the container itself, but there certainly ARE times when even the "crappiest" containers hold up remarkably well even after several years.

 

For me the only 'crappy container' is one that is inappropriate for the hide location.

Assuming I'm reading this right, the only reason the log was dry on the day you found it was because the day was dry.

 

Why do you assume that?

Because of two things you mentioned.

 

First, because you claimed that the log was dry. Presumably, the log was made out of paper. Paper has a rather distinct property of absorbing moisture. I suspect that this is why companies use it for manufacturing paper towels. Granted, some paper is better at absorbing moisture than other paper, but if the final product is unsealed, processed wood pulp, it is going to absorb moisture to some degree. It should be noted that products such as Rite in the Rain paper are not, strictly speaking, made of paper, as the term is commonly understood.

 

Second, because you claimed that the container was bent, rusty and cracked. A container which is bent, rusty and cracked is not a barrier. The contents of a bent, rusty and cracked container are exposed to the environment in which the container was placed. Even in a so called 'protected' spot, the contents are still going to match the environment. The only real difference is that a protected environment will not be directly struck by falling moisture, such as rain or snow. That does not mean that there is no moisture there. Had there been no moisture there, at any point in the cache's life, I'm thinking it would not be rusty. Humidity and ground vapors are not as affected by gravity as rain drops are, and are perfectly capable of rising upward and even drifting inward to get to a protected location.

 

Since you claimed that the container was no longer viable, (cracked), and since you claimed the log was dry, it seems like a valid assumption. As to ink running when a log gets damp, I've found this to be true for gel type ink. Not so much for other inks.

 

Aside from Sharpies, I've observed it's virtually universal for any ink. Even Sharpies bleed out a bit. This was standard lined notebook paper.

 

But you basically reinforced my point, since I fully acknowledged factors like humidity. The log was still dry and had withstood many weather conditions in an already cracked container without getting "soaked".

 

Shall I hire a forensic team out to the cache to perform a more thorough examination?

Edited by J Grouchy
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Aside from Sharpies, I've observed it's virtually universal for any ink. Even Sharpies bleed out a bit. This was standard lined notebook paper.

We all have different observations of the world around us. I suspect this is why defense attorneys so often claim that the worst possible evidence in a crime case is the eyewitness testimony. You see one thing, I see something else. Without detailed experimentation, both observations, even though contradictory, are perfectly valid. Living in Central Florida, I deal with a lot of moisture issues, and my observations do not match your observations. What I've found is that a gel type ink will bleed the most. Second, comes the magic marker type ink. Lastly, comes the standard ball point type ink.

 

Something I do to test the viability of a particular container is to place a sheet of paper inside it, and run it through several cycles of laundry in my washing machine, to hopefully mirror the circumstances of a cache being opened, closed, many times, over several years. On this slip of paper, I write the word "Test" in all three ink types. Those containers which have failed seem to follow my aforementioned observations.

 

But you basically reinforced my point, since I fully acknowledged factors like humidity. The log was still dry and had withstood many weather conditions in an already cracked container without getting "soaked".

I suspect we are affirming each other's points. If the log had been simply held in place by a magnet, with no container at all, it would be damp when conditions in the 'protected' area were damp, and dry, when conditions were dry.

 

Shall I hire a forensic team out to the cache to perform a more thorough examination?

If you wish. I can make some recommendations, since I work in a related field. Though I suspect it would be fairly expensive. If you feel it is important enough to prove that crappy containers are fine in protected areas, then by all means, PM me and I can point you to some privately run forensics people in your area.

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First, can it not be reasonably assumed that when paper does get wet, whatever ink exists on the paper tends to diffuse and spread out?

Thought I would show a graphic regarding what I opined earlier.

42e3e515-c633-486e-aa41-583596e9f888.jpg?rnd=0.3569256

By my observations, the standard ball point ink bleeds the least.

J Grouchy, what's the GC # of that cache you mentioned?

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Its been interesting reading everyones thoughts on this topic. I agree that the container must be the first line of defense against moisture, but I still like a good quality plastic bag (not a baggie) as a backup.

 

I have had good luck with the plano plastic ammon boxes. The smaller ones are less than 10 bucks and are easy to paint since I like to do my own custom camoflage. The first one I put out a year ago I just covered with some crappy camo tape. On the annual maintenance run last week, the tape had faded somewhat but the container was in perfect condition and the contents were dry as a bone. For the price they seem like a good alternative to the metal boxes ... although the metal ones are clearly the best.

 

BTW, what seems to be the best camo tape to use? I've had mixed results with the several brands I've tried. I have seen a Gorilla Glue camo tape that looks good but I haven't tried it.

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Again, using the above paper on micro's means " crappy" containers are as good as any and no baggies needed.

 

On full size caches, of course , you want to keep the contents dry as well so good watertight containers are needed.

For micros, I've found Tyvex to be great stuff.

But even Tyvex can gather mold if left in a damp environment.

Which is why I don't agree that quality documentation mediums are not an excuse for crappy containers.

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Again, using the above paper on micro's means " crappy" containers are as good as any and no baggies needed.

 

On full size caches, of course , you want to keep the contents dry as well so good watertight containers are needed.

For micros, I've found Tyvex to be great stuff.

But even Tyvex can gather mold if left in a damp environment.

Which is why I don't agree that quality documentation mediums are not an excuse for crappy containers.

The signatures on that "Waterproof paper" bleed just like the above photo, in a container in a humid environment. And so does inkjet printing on the log sheets.

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Every time I see the Subject of this thread, I have been tempted to make the following post. I haven't read what others have said, but I just had to........... can't.....No,no,no....don't do it............stop.......... ah........no....

 

Out here in the southwest, just tack any log sheet to a tree, fence post, lay it on the ground, etc. It will stay dry! Less than 1/2" of rain for the year, so far. Nothing is getting wet. Aargh! Can you say DROUGHT? No problem with wet log sheets, just dried up ink pens.

 

Sorry, couldn't stop myself. :ph34r:

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Again, using the above paper on micro's means " crappy" containers are as good as any and no baggies needed.

 

On full size caches, of course , you want to keep the contents dry as well so good watertight containers are needed.

For micros, I've found Tyvex to be great stuff.

But even Tyvex can gather mold if left in a damp environment.

Which is why I don't agree that quality documentation mediums are not an excuse for crappy containers.

 

CR, you're a wordsmith. Hence the reason I quoted you in my sig line, but I digress. There will always be an exception to the rule. An ammo can will fail and let water in. Let's use that as the example for all ammo cans! A film canister will keep the log dry for longer than a week. That means they're all great! Bleh :sad: Take a little pride in your cache and make it a container that's worth finding.

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Again, using the above paper on micro's means " crappy" containers are as good as any and no baggies needed.

 

On full size caches, of course , you want to keep the contents dry as well so good watertight containers are needed.

For micros, I've found Tyvex to be great stuff.

But even Tyvex can gather mold if left in a damp environment.

Which is why I don't agree that quality documentation mediums are not an excuse for crappy containers.

 

CR, you're a wordsmith. Hence the reason I quoted you in my sig line, but I digress. There will always be an exception to the rule. An ammo can will fail and let water in. Let's use that as the example for all ammo cans! A film canister will keep the log dry for longer than a week. That means they're all great! Bleh :sad: Take a little pride in your cache and make it a container that's worth finding.

Testify, Brother!

It's a given that any container can fail. I believe that the most we can do, as conscientious hiders, is to play the odds by using the best containers possible, based on our experience. For me, that is part of taking pride in m hide. The dreaded Altoids tin which so completely sucks in Florida, could work great in an arid environment. The reverse is just as true. The Lock & Locks I have had such good luck with here, seem to be less robust in desert climates.

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Again, using the above paper on micro's means " crappy" containers are as good as any and no baggies needed.

 

On full size caches, of course , you want to keep the contents dry as well so good watertight containers are needed.

For micros, I've found Tyvex to be great stuff.

But even Tyvex can gather mold if left in a damp environment.

Which is why I don't agree that quality documentation mediums are not an excuse for crappy containers.

The signatures on that "Waterproof paper" bleed just like the above photo, in a container in a humid environment. And so does inkjet printing on the log sheets.

I think the biggest difference with Tyvex like products is that they do not easily absorb moisture. Because ink is a kind of moisture, this could maybe explain why some of the more fluid inks, such as found in gel pens and magic markers, don't adhere as well when subjected to wet conditions? I have found that my inkjet printer does a very poor job at printing on Tyvex. Even when set aside to cure, as soon as I touch them, the ink smears. My Fisher Space Pen draws nice clear lines on it, which are blemish free after a soaking.

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