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Startlingly Fast Approvals


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Last night I submitted four Former School waymarks. I was surprised that my Confirmation email message for the third waymark was immediately followed by the Approval for the same. I'm sure that the time between the Submit button and the Approval message arriving was less than a minute. A few minutes later the Approvals for the first 2 Former Schools came in.

 

No doubt the messages from Groundspeak to the reviewers about new waymarks is sent in the order they are submitted. But I've noticed several times that the Approvals were in reverse order -- and that without issues that held them up. My guess is that some reviewers have their email readers set to show the messages Latest First, and then they go through them in that order. I always sort my email messages in Oldest First (Latest Last), myself.

 

It's not a big deal, of course. But several times I've submitted multiple waymarks to a category and had the Approvals come back in reverse order. Not always. Depends on the reviewer (and their email settings) is my guess.

 

Edit: now submit your prize fast approval experiences. (If you wanna gripe, that's a different thread or threads.)

Edited by MountainWoods
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I don't rely on email notifications for submitted waymarks. I check my emails after brekkie & then later in the evening when my PQs & queries (Geocaching Australia) arrive. Each time I logon to Waymarking I just check My Categories & if there is an explanation mark go from there. No ! there at the moment so had a look here. If there are some waymarks submitted I generally start from the top. As to my waymarks being approved rapidly I've had a few. Parks & Gardens come to mind. One was approved within seconds of being submitted.

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I've forgotten which Waymark it was, but I remember it was in a category that was new to me. I submitted a Waymark and got back the Approval email within a few seconds - maybe 15. Although I really doubt that this is possible, at the time I thought "I wonder if some categories allow instant Approvals, with the option of later Declining if a Waymark proves unworthy." I realize that sounds goofy. But I couldn't figure out how in the world the Waymark was approved in what seemed like machine-automation time. I don't think a human could have even read my Description in that time!

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I usually work from the bottom of my list up. I think just personal preference.

 

But then you have only 1 site I think.

 

If you have more sites, lets say 4 every time you approved a Waymark you will start at site 1, so too much extra clicks for me.

 

Sometimes I only review Waymarks from my Waymarking buddies, or from Waymarkers who are friendly. :ph34r:

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I've had a few astonishingly rapid approvals, although I can't remember which categories they were in. I'm not an active Officer, so my observation is only a guess. I believe that when a submitted waymark is approved in under a minute, that the Officer that reviewed my submittal was already on Waymarking.com. When the notice arrived, being all too familiar with the requirements of the category, they checked for the those required attributes of the category. Upon passing the "test", regardless of what was written in the body of the waymark, it was approved.

 

That is probably not the way the majority of Officers operate, but then, just like all the different little nuances of what each category requires, there are probably that many different ways Officers go about approving waymark submissions. We're all different; that is part of what makes this "fun" - most of the time...

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Timely reaction is important in my opinion, but this covers all that's within the first day. This is an international game, and I will never approve something very fast, that was posted when it's 3 AM here.

 

On the other hand, too fast can also be quite disappointing. I do not really appreciate an approval within 10 seconds for a waymark I may have spent several hours with research, compiling, translations, choosing the right pictures and so on.

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This is a bit off of my own topic; but one of the most satisfying moments was when I literally spent most of a day on a single waymark.

 

The comment that came back in the Approval message was that it set a new standard for that category.

 

That may have been a bit of an exaggeration; but it tickled me none-the-less. The waymark in question was on the ORIGIN of Shoal Creek in Southwest Missouri. I had thought long and hard about that Waymark and had done some preliminary driving to make sure I had it right. But I took about 6 hours one day driving the length of it and taking photos. I don't know why except that it interested me. I knew of this creek being little more than a small depression to jump over not far from where I live, and yet seeing the same thing as a river in Joplin.

 

Now back to the fast approvals topic. (Maybe I should have started a topic on bragging about your best waymark or something.)

Edited by MountainWoods
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I have been at the saltmine (workplace in other languages) when an email has popped up saying one of the categories I am an officer in has a new submission. Taking a break from the work, I have been able to review and approve in a short time. But recently workplace pressures have precluded this "rapid response" and more often than not, the "my categories" menu shows that there are no waymarks needing review, meaning that another officer has already completed the duties, or even if there are waymarks to review, I haven't got time to act on it.

 

Just remember that all officers are volunteers with other priorities hanging around, so if it is not approved immediately.... I have potential waymarks now stretching back over 12 months to submit. Somebody give me a kick in the rear end will you...

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I usually work from the bottom of my list up. I think just personal preference.

 

I believe the list is presented in date order submitted. On the chance that there are two waymarks awaiting approval for the same place, you would be approving the second waymark, when it should be declined as a duplicate of the one higher in the list.

 

This has happened to me, because no officer was reviewing on a timely basis. Eventually an officer just clicked through the list approving everything, while apparently ignoring the possible duplicate warning. Shortly thereafter I noticed my submission, along with a second waymark and had to notify the officer of their carelessness.

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On the other hand, too fast can also be quite disappointing. I do not really appreciate an approval within 10 seconds for a waymark I may have spent several hours with research, compiling, translations, choosing the right pictures and so on.

 

I know the feeling!

 

Me too. I don't review in a lot of categories, but I do spend some time with each one that I review, at least a few minutes. Certainly some categories are easier to review than others. Category officers are (should be) responsible for the quality of waymarks accepted and not just how many they can approve.

 

I think some category officers have have now gotten to be responsible for too many categories. Certainly, SilverQuill admitted this a few years ago, asked for help, and offloaded some categories to new officers. I'm all for timely approvals, but not to the extent of blind acceptance. I glance at a lot of waymarks every day. Maybe, it's because of my background of quality control, but I find errors every day! I try not to make mistakes, but I do have submissions with errors and I actually appreciate being told of corrections needed.

 

I stumbled onto one the other day, searching for waymarks in Washington state. One appeared in the list that said Elk, Montana. So I sent the creator a note saying the pop-up menu had the wrong state selected. Well, the creator corrected the waymark, but wrote back to say the state selected was correct, but the title had the wrong state (I hadn't looked at the map). We had a laugh over that.

 

At a minimum, here's some guidelines for what I believe a reviewer needs to check:

 

• This is a GPS-based hobby, so MINIMALLY the coordinates must be accurate. The coordinates should zero in on the waymark. Zoom in with Google Satellite view or even go to Street View and see if you can see the object. I know maps and street view can be stale, but at least check. Clearly if the waymark says it's new or less that 5 years old, maybe it won't appear in either, but you can also see in street view whether the background of pictures is close at all. If there's an address of a location given, type it into Google maps and see if it comes to the same map location. (If there's any concern here, it should be declined for correction or explanation)

 

• The location pop-ups for country and state/province, should match the title. (If not, this should be declined for correction)

 

• If there are URL links in variables that don't work, that's not good. If there are links in the text of the long description that don't work, that's not good either. Since variables are usually required, they should be working at the time of review. This might be cause for a decline. Other links in the long description should also be working at submission time. I've had reviewers catch a non-working link of mine and approve it anyway with a note asking to fix the URL. If you know me I will fix it, because I want it to work too. (Reviewers choice here on whether to decline or accept with a request to correct)

 

• Other items, dependent on each category, should be checked for reasonableness.

 

After these items the general content should be reviewed.

• Is the title well-formed and meet accepted conventions?

• Read the long description. And I mean read completely. If it was copied from somewhere, were sources (URLs) included? I don't decline for spelling or grammar errors, though I do edit and correct the obvious, immediately after I accept it. It's more work to call them out and have the submitter fix them.

 

IMO, If you're a reviewer who's getting so many waymarks to approve each day that you can't spend time to check each submission reasonably well, then you're reviewing too many categories or the category needs more reviewers to help with the load. There needs to be a balance between timeliness and quality.

 

When I'm sitting at my computer and six approvals come in within two minutes of each other, I know they have not been reviewed in depth. When I spend 30 minutes or more working on a single submission, I would hope that the first person to see it puts in some effort to check my work. It's a matter of pride for me when I submit and it should be a matter of pride when a reviewer chooses to accept a submission into the category.

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...I think some category officers have have now gotten to be responsible for too many categories...

 

I think that's not the problem. If you check daily about 40 Waymarks you get very well in this process. SQ and I are one of the harder officers. It would be interesting how many Waymarks I declined. I really do my best. Perhaps I'm not reading every single letter, but I'm reading the description (In Germany we say: Überfliegen). I also decline if text is taken 1:1 without the source. I would say I spent about 1-2 hours per day for reviewing. Sometimes I gets fast, if I know the submitter does a great job.

 

If someone feels uncomfortable because some hardcore Waymarkers review too much please let us know and we will change it.

 

Thanks,

lumbricus

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DougK's approach is certainly valid, but I do not think an officer's responsibility goes that far. I see my role as an officer a bit different.

 

My duty is to judge if a submission does fit the special criteria for a category. Pictures, variables, naming conventions, language conventions, and so on, of course the quality of the write-up is also important. If the object does fit the category and everything that has to be there is there, then fine. But I do not have to check all data for correctness; the submitters are adult people and I am not their teacher. I am more than willing to believe that they have done their best, and I don't think I have been mislead doing so.

 

Especially when a waymark comes from an area I have never been to and do not know as well as the submitter, and this is the majority for almost all of us, a deep inspection would often take longer and be more difficult than the post. We would need more officers than waymarkers to keep it going on that way.

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I know I have reviewed some very fast. It usually happens when I am working through my list and a new one shows up in a category I have just finished reviewing all waymarks.

 

Exactly! When working from the approval queue a new one pops up at the top of the list. I may continue down the line and come back to it, but then I have to skip over it every time, so I'll review it first and then go on.

 

If the review is too rapid, it does make me wonder if anyone actually looked at and read the waymark, though. That's not so say that I always read every word and look at every photo--depends.

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A good waymark can be reviewed very fast. A great one takes more time, because then I enjoy it, read it more careful and take a deeper look at the pictures.

 

Bad submissions also take more time, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and try my best to explain the reasons for denial, why this is the wrong category or what could be done in detail to make it valid. And indeed, some denied waymarks could be turned into great ones in team work, this feels even better than a standard approval.

 

The most work are borderline cases. When I am just not sure, if it does fit or is good enough. I wish we had some kind of check out feature, to flag a submission for other officers to know that someone is working on it. This is the worst, spending a long time with a difficult waymark, just to find out, some other officer has handled it in the mean time, maybe without noticing the potential issues.

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A good waymark can be reviewed very fast. A great one takes more time, because then I enjoy it, read it more careful and take a deeper look at the pictures.

 

Bad submissions also take more time, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and try my best to explain the reasons for denial, why this is the wrong category or what could be done in detail to make it valid. And indeed, some denied waymarks could be turned into great ones in team work, this feels even better than a standard approval.

 

The most work are borderline cases. When I am just not sure, if it does fit or is good enough. I wish we had some kind of check out feature, to flag a submission for other officers to know that someone is working on it. This is the worst, spending a long time with a difficult waymark, just to find out, some other officer has handled it in the mean time, maybe without noticing the potential issues.

I'm not a reviewer, but I have seen a similar situation like this in other software contexts. I am wondering if a tacky workaround would be to have the reviewer temporarily change the name of the waymark to include -REVIEWING (or whatever) at the end; then remember to remove it when they are done. They wouldn't have to do so if it is only going to take a minute or two to review. But if they start scratching their head, they may want to somehow "mark" the waymark to let other officers know that it is under consideration.

 

Just a thought. I worked for IBM for 16 years, and they were notorious for not having that kind of checkout/checkin concept for a lot of their simpler collaboration systems. We ended up having to use name-changing to add things like -EDITING or -REVIEWING or whatever. Really tacky. But it works.

 

BTW, We've gotten really far off of topic; but I don't really mind. The diversions have given me more insight into what goes on behind the reviewer desk. However, I wouldn't mind seeing more posts about those Startlingly Fast Approvals. I still see some quite often.

Edited by MountainWoods
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I'm not a reviewer, but I have seen a similar situation like this in other software contexts. I am wondering if a tacky workaround would be to have the reviewer temporarily change the name of the waymark to include -REVIEWING (or whatever) at the end; then remember to remove it when they are done. They wouldn't have to do so if it is only going to take a minute or two to review. But if they start scratching their head, they may want to somehow "mark" the waymark to let other officers know that it is under consideration.

 

Unfortunately how things are setup now the category officers can't make any changes to the waymark until the waymark is published, thus could not make that title change.

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I know I have reviewed some very fast. It usually happens when I am working through my list and a new one shows up in a category I have just finished reviewing all waymarks.

 

I use the que, and in the mornings, and I have so many categories, that I do 3 per each each day...and while working through a new one pops up, say, in a category no others were in that morning...and I will review it right away....so it will receive a quick response while others may lag a day sometimes two...or in the case of Texas..where we sometimes have as many as 50 entered on a day...a bit longer.

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[quote name='BruceS' timestamp='1374103846' post='5

Unfortunately how things are setup now the category officers can't make any changes to the waymark until the waymark is published, thus could not make that title change.

 

You soon get to know the quality of the waymarks by the person submitting them. There are a few you know you have to peruse more carefully while others can get speedy approvals

I absolutely refuse to promote a couple members as Officers being, in the past, they approved every Waymark even tho they weren't even close to the requirements.

TRIGGER FINGERS

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DougK's approach is certainly valid, but I do not think an officer's responsibility goes that far. I see my role as an officer a bit different.

 

My duty is to judge if a submission does fit the special criteria for a category. Pictures, variables, naming conventions, language conventions, and so on, of course the quality of the write-up is also important. If the object does fit the category and everything that has to be there is there, then fine. But I do not have to check all data for correctness; the submitters are adult people and I am not their teacher. I am more than willing to believe that they have done their best, and I don't think I have been mislead doing so.

 

Especially when a waymark comes from an area I have never been to and do not know as well as the submitter, and this is the majority for almost all of us, a deep inspection would often take longer and be more difficult than the post. We would need more officers than waymarkers to keep it going on that way.

I agree with all of those duties for accepting a submission.

 

I believe that since this is a GPS-based hobby an officer has to make some attempt to verify the coordinates. I can find waymarks posted with coordinates as far off as 40 miles! I’ve seen waymarks get approved in the middle of the ocean, because of the E-W longitude switching bug. Again, MINIMALLY, coordinates must be examined as best possible. Zoom in with the Google Satellite View and see what’s there.

 

Many objects, such as parks, cemeteries, buildings, aircraft, even sculptures and statues can be seen (or their shadow) in Google Satellite View or even Street View where available. Make this simple check. Are the coordinates reasonable? If it’s supposed to be a building, but looks like a farm field or is in the middle of lake, there’s definitely a problem.

 

Whether submitters are adults or not, experienced waymarkers or newbies, we all make mistakes, such as digits transposed.

 

As for being a teacher, you can do that. Personally, I look at your waymarks every day, because I consider them to be interesting and of high quality. As many of us have been to the school of SilverQuill, once you get the hang of creating a good waymark, you should pass that knowledge and guidance on to newbies or offer advice to improve waymarks for the future. Experience waymarkers can offer a lot. Pass on your knowledge. It’s how Waymarking gets better waymarkers.

 

IMO, if you are not examining the coordinates somehow, you are not giving the activity of Waymarking your best service as a category officer.

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IMO, if you are not examining the coordinates somehow, you are not giving the activity of Waymarking your best service as a category officer.

 

In February of last year (2013) I came a cross SIX waymarks in a category posted by the same person, approved by the same (different) person. All had the exact same coordinates - the middle of a field. A bigger give away was the coordinates were N XX 00.0000 W XX 00.0000. They were supposed to be in different towns. It took many messages to category officers before they were finally removed. These were approved in 2007, and it wasn't until 2013 that they were found to be "bogus".

 

It is the responsibility of the person who approves a waymark to check the coordinates. I use the map here on Waymarking. If I have any doubts, then I will bring it up in Google Earth.

 

For what it is worth:

 

Waymarking is a way to mark unique locations on the planet and give them a voice. While GPS technology allows us to pinpoint any location on the planet, mark the location, and share it with others, Waymarking is the toolset for categorizing and adding unique information for that location.

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...As many of us have been to the school of SilverQuill...

 

I'm thankful for that school as well as well as BruceS's school - it sure helped me build a better waymark. I have learned so much about architecture from going more in depth on the Contributing Buildings category and have learned quite a bit about late 19th and early 20th century funerary symbology from the many cemetery categories I enjoy doing. I try to ask for more information on those submitted waymarks that need it - it is like Silverquill told me when I really got started in this - SELL the waymark, try to get someone to visit...

 

Now, can someone GUARANTEE that it will be above freezing this weekend in Kansas City so I can get out and get some NEW wamarks? :D

 

I do want to thank all of the officers who do volunteer time to review these waymarks - it sometimes is a thankless job, but it is appreciated!

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DougK's approach is certainly valid, but I do not think an officer's responsibility goes that far. I see my role as an officer a bit different.

 

My duty is to judge if a submission does fit the special criteria for a category. Pictures, variables, naming conventions, language conventions, and so on, of course the quality of the write-up is also important. If the object does fit the category and everything that has to be there is there, then fine. But I do not have to check all data for correctness; the submitters are adult people and I am not their teacher. I am more than willing to believe that they have done their best, and I don't think I have been mislead doing so.

 

Especially when a waymark comes from an area I have never been to and do not know as well as the submitter, and this is the majority for almost all of us, a deep inspection would often take longer and be more difficult than the post. We would need more officers than waymarkers to keep it going on that way.

I agree with all of those duties for accepting a submission.

 

I believe that since this is a GPS-based hobby an officer has to make some attempt to verify the coordinates. I can find waymarks posted with coordinates as far off as 40 miles! I’ve seen waymarks get approved in the middle of the ocean, because of the E-W longitude switching bug. Again, MINIMALLY, coordinates must be examined as best possible. Zoom in with the Google Satellite View and see what’s there.

 

Many objects, such as parks, cemeteries, buildings, aircraft, even sculptures and statues can be seen (or their shadow) in Google Satellite View or even Street View where available. Make this simple check. Are the coordinates reasonable? If it’s supposed to be a building, but looks like a farm field or is in the middle of lake, there’s definitely a problem.

 

Whether submitters are adults or not, experienced waymarkers or newbies, we all make mistakes, such as digits transposed.

 

As for being a teacher, you can do that. Personally, I look at your waymarks every day, because I consider them to be interesting and of high quality. As many of us have been to the school of SilverQuill, once you get the hang of creating a good waymark, you should pass that knowledge and guidance on to newbies or offer advice to improve waymarks for the future. Experience waymarkers can offer a lot. Pass on your knowledge. It’s how Waymarking gets better waymarkers.

 

IMO, if you are not examining the coordinates somehow, you are not giving the activity of Waymarking your best service as a category officer.

I certainly do not think the coordinates are not important. I always check the area and a clear mistake will always be discovered, and we, who live in the eastern hemispere are very sensitive to that E-W bug. Most cases of E-W switches I have seen recently were not wrongly approved, the switch happened when editing the active waymark later. The same with the loss of minutes in the coordinates, this often happens after approval.

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Boy. I first started this thread before I was an officer in any group. Now I get to see things from the other direction. So far, I've never let (or seen) any Waymark languish in the categories that I'm involved in. All of us in those groups try to turn things around as fast as possible.

 

There's almost an implicit "war" going on in at least one of the categories. I have a mail notifier application running that checks for new mail every 15 minutes. When I see a waymark that needs reviewed, I go to it immediately. And darn if it isn't more than half the cases where "the other guy" has beaten me to reviewing and publishing the thing. (You know who you are!)

 

Don't get me wrong - we don't stint on making sure that everything is good. Don't want poor quality waymarks just because of a "reviewer war". ;) But it seems like a friendly rivalry going on. I wish it'd catch on....

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Wow, this turned into a long thread! Might as well add a few more comments.

 

The original speed question: Reviewer wars, really? Didn't know reviewing waymarks was a competition. If anyone really wants to review some more waymarks, let me know and I'll fix you up! The only time I might be fast is if a waymark appears in my queue while I'm working my way through it.

 

Good Reviews: I've reviewed enough waymarks to have made some bad reviews - wrong state, bad coords, etc. Sometimes it actually is because I've been in a hurry. Other times, I just missed something, or misread something.

 

There are several things that do affect how long I spend reviewing a waymark. One is the category. A McDonalds or a Chinese Restaurant gets less of my time than an old church or a superlative. Another is who is submitting the waymark. If it is from someone who has a track record of good waymarks, it may get a more cursory look. We can all make mistakes, so I take a look at the basics. A waymark from someone I'm less familiar with or who has an unfavorable track record will get a closer scrutiny.

 

I do assume a basic level of competence in most cases, so don't check all facts or every word for spelling and grammar, for instance. And, if the waymark is from a place that I have no experience with, then it can be more difficult to verify descriptions, sometimes even coordinates.

 

I do decline waymarks, and try my best to give a detailed explanation and suggestions when I can. That is by far the most time consuming part of reviewing, but an important one. Usually people are responsive to these comments, and the result is a better waymark.

 

I do know a few officers who seemingly review anything and everything regardless of quality or accuracy, but that is by far an exception. I think most of us really try to do our best.

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By the way, this infernal map problem is causing me to check the locations more than usual. I have to bring up Google Earth and paste the coordinates into it. I know there's another forum thread on it, but this map thing happens to me 100% now. I cannot use the map in the waymark at all in either IE or Chrome. Firefox seems to work, but it takes so long to start up, I'd rather use Google Earth! Anyway, using GE often allows me to look at the street view and I get to see the charming areas where some of these waymarks are posted about.

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Just a few thoughts based on my own (limited) experience:

 

The most work are borderline cases. When I am just not sure, if it does fit or is good enough.

I'm an officer in only one group, it's fairly new and all 4 officers are equally active. We often use the group vote to help decided on borderline cases. The member who calls the vote will typically state why they concerned with the submission (something like "does this fit the category" or "is there enough information about [whatever]"). Although I could see how this would be a problem with groups where only one or two officers are active in reviewing submissions

 

This is the worst, spending a long time with a difficult waymark, just to find out, some other officer has handled it in the mean time, maybe without noticing the potential issues.

In those cases could you not be justified in using the Reevaluate Waymark option?

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Since this topic draws continued interest, I’ll describe a situation that I noticed in today’s waymark submissions.

 

25 cemeteries were approved in a span around 3 minutes!

 

How is that possible? I think I’d have to write a script of some sort to attain that speed.

Edited by DougK
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