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FTF: To share or not to share?


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Okay, here's a situation. Say you're at a geocaching event and the host releases coordinates for around a dozen new caches. You go out after said caches and do pretty well, picking up a few FTFs. You come across the next cache on your list and you see a couple people there looking for it. After exchanging a few pleasantries, you look for the cache yourself after hearing they have not found it yet. You almost immediately come across the cache in a spot nowhere near where the others are looking. You rightfully sign the FTF spot and hand it over to the other cachers as they come to where you are, let them sign it, put it back and then leave for the next one.

 

I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same thing some time ago. In this case, I logged FTF solo as I didn't feel they deserved it because they were not caching with me and they weren't even close to the hide when I found it. Some people thought I "cheated" this out of state duo out of a FTF, that I should have shared it and because I didn't it was "unsportsmanlike" and it made the local geocaching community look bad.

 

Now...in such a situation, do you either claim the FTF for yourself alone or allow the other cachers to sign the FTF spot as well? Thoughts?

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Okay, here's a situation. Say you're at a geocaching event and the host releases coordinates for around a dozen new caches. You go out after said caches and do pretty well, picking up a few FTFs. You come across the next cache on your list and you see a couple people there looking for it. After exchanging a few pleasantries, you look for the cache yourself after hearing they have not found it yet. You almost immediately come across the cache in a spot nowhere near where the others are looking. You rightfully sign the FTF spot and hand it over to the other cachers as they come to where you are, let them sign it, put it back and then leave for the next one.

 

I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same thing some time ago. In this case, I logged FTF solo as I didn't feel they deserved it because they were not caching with me and they weren't even close to the hide when I found it. Some people thought I "cheated" this out of state duo out of a FTF, that I should have shared it and because I didn't it was "unsportsmanlike" and it made the local geocaching community look bad.

 

Now...in such a situation, do you either claim the FTF for yourself alone or allow the other cachers to sign the FTF spot as well? Thoughts?

 

FTF doesn't mean much to me, so I would have just offered to help them look, rather than go on my own, and if I spotted it, called them over to find it, and let them have the FTF.

 

I'm sure FTF hounds will disagree with me, I know they get very competitive, but like I said, doesn't mean much to me, and I'd prefer to make a friend of a fellow cacher rather than have a FTF.

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The out-of-state duo can claim a FTF if they feel they were part of it. There's nothing stopping them from doing so. What other cachers do or say in their log has no bearing on whether another cacher can claim that they were part of the FTF. I can't recall ever being a part of a discussion at GZ where everyone decided who could or could not claim FTF. Everyone just logs it the way they see fit.

 

I was recently on the other side of a situation very similar to what you describe. I had been searching for the cache for a few minutes with my mother, and hadn't found it yet. Another cacher arrived, and basically walked right up and found it where she had already checked earlier, just not well enough. Neither myself or my mother claimed a FTF, but that's just the way we do things. Another cacher might claim a FTF in such a scenario. Neither way is wrong, since there's no "right" way.

 

As for the others who think it was "unsportsmanlike", I'd tell them to stuff it. The out-of-state duo didn't find it first, you did.

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You were first to find - That is a fact. However the way you record it is purely down to yourself and your own feelings.

If the other cachers were really excited about FTF and maybe hadn't recorded one before I would have offered them this opportunity if they wanted to record it as such. If they were seasoned cachers but were still desperate to record the FTF then I would have offered them a suggestion that you both record it as a joint FTF. If they were well known FTF hounds that should know the ethics then I would have claimed my sole FTF exactly as you did.

If I was the cacher at GZ when you made the find in the way you describe I would never even have considered claiming any sort of FTF recognition.

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not a big fan of the shared FTF. Was working on a field puzzle one time for a FTF when another group of cachers showed up. We both figured out the coordinates for the final stage. I think it was 0.3 miles away. I would have jogged over, but decided that would be rude and just walked with them. Once we got to the final stage, they found the container before me. They said I could claim a co-FTF and I ended up doing so, but it didn't really feel like a FTF. I tried to justify it to myself by saying I would had jogged over and had extra time to search. To be honest though, I kinda just wish I had just let them take the full credit. The person that actually FINDS the container first should get the credit imo.

Edited by mobywv
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I remember a person on another thread saying claiming a solo FTF isn't fair to the others who searched for it too and it should be "shared".

- The others got to sign the log. You shared.

It's not like you found it and hid it again.

 

First to find isn't that hard to figure out, really.

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I have almost lost interest in FTFs because of discussions like this. It isn't a competition! Like someone said, I would rather make a friend that add a silly number to my stats.

 

How far away were the other cachers? How many seconds did it take for them to get to GZ? How old were they? How many caches had they found? Did they use black ink, blue ink, a stamp or a sticker? All of these things are VERY important if you are going to give up the honor of FTF.

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If I am FTF it is by accident. I too have had it be a problem for me, and I understand that it is part of geocaching that others enjoy so I like to let them have their glory. I also have a bad habit of not logging my find on line if I am FTF, I wait until another user logs it and normally they include that they were not FTF in their log. :)

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I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same ...

 

But I bet you are not "catching flak" over ignoring your hide with a soggy log book. Oh wait, you just did.

 

Oh, you mean the one that my wife and i are not ignoring by both relocating it to a better spot and fixing tonight when we travel to that town? Thanks for the reminder, but it's being taken care of.

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Back on topic, I think that part of the reason why it irritated me a bit was that this particular duo are known FTF hounds in their own right and despite this, certain people felt they were somehow "owed" that FTF on the cache. We were the only ones out there, so it's obvious who started the stories. Being in the FTF game themselves, they should know that you are gonna get beaten at times.

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I'm not overly fussed by the FTF as such. but if I am ftf then I will claim it.

 

If i stroll over to a cache where cachers are looking I would probably ask if they want help rather then just look for that cache, but thats just me.

 

That being said if they didn't help me find that cache then I won't say that I worked with them... because that is a lie.

 

Then if there is a family trying for the ftf and I find it first I will hand it to the kids to ftf.

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You found it first and are under no obligation to 'share FTF'. They should grow up and stop whining. If they want to claim FTF on their logs, then let them! It doesn't make any difference to you.

 

Having said that, if I'm going for a FTF and am in a similar situation, I would offer to share FTF, only because that seems to be fashionable here. Then I'd go home and mark it is a FTF in my own personal bookmark list. However, if I wasn't FTF and someone offered to share it with me, I'd probably thank them and may even say 'shared FTF' in my log, however, I would not add this to my personal FTF bookmark list.

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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Back on topic, I think that part of the reason why it irritated me a bit was that this particular duo are known FTF hounds in their own right and despite this, certain people felt they were somehow "owed" that FTF on the cache. We were the only ones out there, so it's obvious who started the stories. Being in the FTF game themselves, they should know that you are gonna get beaten at times.

My phobia started with my FTF. It was a series that fizzled out and no prize was ever awarded. To claim the prize you had to collect poker chips from all of the challenge caches. I was FTF and signed the log on a difficult multi, but the CO placed the wrong container at the final, the one with the poker chips in it was still in his truck, and the one at the final only contained a log. So guess what I got the blame for? :mad:

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I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same ...

 

But I bet you are not "catching flak" over ignoring your hide with a soggy log book. Oh wait, you just did.

Sorry. Maybe I'm dense.

How, exactly, is this relevant to the topic?

 

Back to the OP:

I seldom worry about the opinions of busy bodies.

Did you find it first? If so, any FTF honors belong to you.

The entitlement junkies will just have to find another one.

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Just log a FTF and whoever wants to share with you will. Does making your find a FTF vs CoFTF change your excitement on the cache? I think its nicer to share, you get less problems with people and you will make better friends. I used to care before but then I realized that its not worth fighting over what other folks say in their log whether FTF or CoFTF, I just offer to share and they do not share if they found it first, well, they can't police my FTF private bookmark list or my GSAK stats or whatever.

 

So in your case, I would have shared.

Edited by lamoracke
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Okay, here's a situation. Say you're at a geocaching event and the host releases coordinates for around a dozen new caches. You go out after said caches and do pretty well, picking up a few FTFs. You come across the next cache on your list and you see a couple people there looking for it. After exchanging a few pleasantries, you look for the cache yourself after hearing they have not found it yet. You almost immediately come across the cache in a spot nowhere near where the others are looking. You rightfully sign the FTF spot and hand it over to the other cachers as they come to where you are, let them sign it, put it back and then leave for the next one.

 

I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same thing some time ago. In this case, I logged FTF solo as I didn't feel they deserved it because they were not caching with me and they weren't even close to the hide when I found it. Some people thought I "cheated" this out of state duo out of a FTF, that I should have shared it and because I didn't it was "unsportsmanlike" and it made the local geocaching community look bad.

 

Now...in such a situation, do you either claim the FTF for yourself alone or allow the other cachers to sign the FTF spot as well? Thoughts?

One way to handle it is to sign in the first box, add "FTF" if you wish, and then hand it to the others. How they sign is up to them. If they ask your "permission" to claim co-FTF, tell them with a smile it's up to them. You don't need to object OR give it your blessing. Whatever they do is okay. This way you don't have to be in the awkward position of being an "umpire" of FTF status. I would then make sure to log online ASAP.

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I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same ...

 

But I bet you are not "catching flak" over ignoring your hide with a soggy log book. Oh wait, you just did.

Sorry. Maybe I'm dense.

How, exactly, is this relevant to the topic?

 

Back to the OP:

I seldom worry about the opinions of busy bodies.

Did you find it first? If so, any FTF honors belong to you.

The entitlement junkies will just have to find another one.

Tsk-tsk-tsk ... on both of you! :laughing:

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How do you log an FTF "solo"? Did you say something like, "So And So were there first, but I found it without them, so they don't get any FTF credit"? If so, that's why you're getting flak.

 

Anyway, you already have your answer: whether they claim FTF has nothing to do with you, and there's nothing you can or should do to prevent them. Where I cache, I would expect them to claim co-FTF, and I would probably claim co-FTF myself both in your position or theirs. If you feel like it, go ahead and put all the details in your log to make yourself the star of the FTF, but don't act like they didn't play a part in it, even if you don't think their part was important.

 

What's important is that you have a good time, and you don't get in the way of them having a good time.

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FTF means First to Find. Not Second to Find. Only one person can be first. The concept of 'sharing' an FTF defies logic. One person is first. The rest aren't.

Two cachers walking along together to a new cache. As they approach the large tree they both simultaneously see the pile of sticks covering the clip lock box. They clear the sticks together to reveal the cache. FTF achieved jointly. Certainly doesn't defy my logic!

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I was in a similar situation one time. I drove up to GZ to find a caching couple (whom I already knew) looking for it. They offered to share FTF, and I accepted. The lady of the couple was the one who actually found it, we all signed the log as FTF, and both logged online as co-FTF. They actually gave me a little credit in their online log, saying I was the good-luck charm <_< . They had been searching a while when I drove up, and found it immediately after.

 

I'm not apposed to sharing FTF claims, if you hunted for it together. It's just an acronym in the cache log, anyway. No special prize or anything (unless there's one in the cache). Play according to what you feel is right, and let others play their game.

Edited by Kacher82
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The only way I see to not 'share' an FTF is to secretly find the cache, sign the log, return the cache to hiding and walk away as if nothing happened.

 

You apparently courteously handed the cache over after finding and signing it.

Perhaps you were expected to stand aside and do nothing until they made the find? :wacko:

 

Unless there is a fifty in the cache, the FTF (usually) has little or no real meaning.

 

If I arrive at the coffee maker 3 seconds before someone else and pour myself the first cup, will my coffee taste any better than theirs? :unsure:

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What's important is that you have a good time, and you don't get in the way of them having a good time.

 

I would agree with that until I just happen to sign the log first, through no fault of my own, and people take issue with it.

 

You know it happens. "These ftf-hounds are ruining for the rest of us!" No, just happened to live nearby and wanted to go caching.

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What's important is that you have a good time, and you don't get in the way of them having a good time.

I would agree with that until I just happen to sign the log first, through no fault of my own, and people take issue with it.

 

Has that really happened? Somebody got called an FTF hound because they happened upon a single unfound cache? I have a hard time believing that is a common occurrence. If you insist that it happens, I'd love to see the evidence.

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Some people thought I "cheated" this out of state duo out of a FTF, that I should have shared it and because I didn't it was "unsportsmanlike" and it made the local geocaching community look bad.

 

It sounds like someone is crying because you didn't share the FTF with them, and they felt entitled to it? No wait, it was someone else who was not there at the time, who is complaining about something that does not concern them, and thinking it makes them look bad?

 

Yes, it certainly does reflect negatively on the caching community. Not what you did, however..

 

If I arrive at the coffee maker 3 seconds before someone else and pour myself the first cup, will my coffee taste any better than theirs? :unsure:

 

If you get it straight from the coffee maker it will, as the first cup is the strongest.

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Back on topic, I think that part of the reason why it irritated me a bit was that this particular duo are known FTF hounds in their own right and despite this, certain people felt they were somehow "owed" that FTF on the cache. We were the only ones out there, so it's obvious who started the stories. Being in the FTF game themselves, they should know that you are gonna get beaten at times.

 

They should log it as FTBHTC (First To Be Handed The Cache). I would think a requirement of being FTF is that you actually FIND the cache...not have it handed to you by a previous finder.

 

This duo obviously thinks their find/FTF count is a score and that other cachers are noticing or caring about it. Since that is the case, let them log it any way they want. Let them puff up their chests and brag about it , even if they weren't FTF. At the end of the day, will it really matter?

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Now...in such a situation, do you either claim the FTF for yourself alone or allow the other cachers to sign the FTF spot as well? Thoughts?

 

I fail to see how you have any control over the matter. You can't control what they write in the logbook. You can't control what they write in their online log. You can't control what they think or believe and you can't control if they click the FTF checkbox next to the cache in their GSAK database.

 

I also don't see why this should be anyone's business besides you and this other couple and honestly can't understand why either of you would want to butt heads over it.

 

I once showed up at a trailhead for a FTF attempt and as I was getting out of my car, another cacher that I was only briefly acquainted with pulled up behind me. We hiked and chatted with each other to GZ and started a search that eventually took a half hour until he finally came up with it, well away from GZ. There was no doubt in my mind that this was a cooperative effort. When I got home, he had already logged and his log was so obnoxious as to how he was FTF that all I could do was laugh. I posted my non controversial log while also offering better coordinates, downloaded it into GSAK and clicked the FTF box.

 

Battling in public over who was FTF on a cache just seem silly.

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FTF means First to Find. Not Second to Find. Only one person can be first. The concept of 'sharing' an FTF defies logic. One person is first. The rest aren't.

Two cachers walking along together to a new cache. As they approach the large tree they both simultaneously see the pile of sticks covering the clip lock box. They clear the sticks together to reveal the cache. FTF achieved jointly. Certainly doesn't defy my logic!

There's a caching duo around here who often search together and bag a lot of FTF's. My cache listing for one of my caches honors them as "co-FTF's."

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Some people thought I "cheated" this out of state duo out of a FTF, that I should have shared it and because I didn't it was "unsportsmanlike" and it made the local geocaching community look bad.

 

It sounds like someone is crying because you didn't share the FTF with them, and they felt entitled to it? No wait, it was someone else who was not there at the time, who is complaining about something that does not concern them, and thinking it makes them look bad?

 

Yes, it certainly does reflect negatively on the caching community. Not what you did, however..

 

If I arrive at the coffee maker 3 seconds before someone else and pour myself the first cup, will my coffee taste any better than theirs? :unsure:

 

If you get it straight from the coffee maker it will, as the first cup is the strongest.

On my home coffee maker I specifically do NOT take the first cup exactly because it IS stronger. So for me, "second-to-pour" is best ... but FTF is better!

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I also don't see why this should be anyone's business besides you and this other couple and honestly can't understand why either of you would want to butt heads over it.

 

That's the point, though. I didn't then and I don't want to now butt heads with them over it. I have no reason to at all. The main issue is that a certain group of local cachers are dragging my name through the mud for not appeasing this older, out of state couple. They obviously felt I should have acted in a way I didn't. Heck, I didn't even know there was an issue until recently, a couple months after the fact. This was simply a WWTGFD?* type of post.

 

 

* What Would the Geocaching Forum Do?

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That's the point, though. I didn't then and I don't want to now butt heads with them over it. I have no reason to at all. The main issue is that a certain group of local cachers are dragging my name through the mud for not appeasing this older, out of state couple. They obviously felt I should have acted in a way I didn't. Heck, I didn't even know there was an issue until recently, a couple months after the fact. This was simply a WWTGFD?* type of post.

 

* What Would the Geocaching Forum Do?

Ah, I see. You asked our opinion about sharing FTFs, but what you're actually complaining about is something that someone else said somewhere unspecified. Since you haven't told us anything about that, I really can't say what I'd do. But odds are that I'd enjoy those comments as good natured jokes and laugh with them about it no matter how obvious it was that the smears weren't intended to be funny.

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That's the point, though. I didn't then and I don't want to now butt heads with them over it. I have no reason to at all. The main issue is that a certain group of local cachers are dragging my name through the mud for not appeasing this older, out of state couple. They obviously felt I should have acted in a way I didn't. Heck, I didn't even know there was an issue until recently, a couple months after the fact. This was simply a WWTGFD?* type of post.

 

* What Would the Geocaching Forum Do?

Ah, I see. You asked our opinion about sharing FTFs, but what you're actually complaining about is something that someone else said somewhere unspecified. Since you haven't told us anything about that, I really can't say what I'd do. But odds are that I'd enjoy those comments as good natured jokes and laugh with them about it no matter how obvious it was that the smears weren't intended to be funny.

 

You are right to an extent. Yes, part of my question is as you state above, but the original question is still a valid one as well and IMO, the crux of the whole experience. It is because of the issue of sharing FTFs or not that it has come to the end result you quoted, namely that it irritated people.

 

Sorry for not making myself clearer from the onset.

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Okay, here's a situation. Say you're at a geocaching event and the host releases coordinates for around a dozen new caches. You go out after said caches and do pretty well, picking up a few FTFs. You come across the next cache on your list and you see a couple people there looking for it. After exchanging a few pleasantries, you look for the cache yourself after hearing they have not found it yet. You almost immediately come across the cache in a spot nowhere near where the others are looking. You rightfully sign the FTF spot and hand it over to the other cachers as they come to where you are, let them sign it, put it back and then leave for the next one.

 

I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same thing some time ago. In this case, I logged FTF solo as I didn't feel they deserved it because they were not caching with me and they weren't even close to the hide when I found it. Some people thought I "cheated" this out of state duo out of a FTF, that I should have shared it and because I didn't it was "unsportsmanlike" and it made the local geocaching community look bad.

 

Now...in such a situation, do you either claim the FTF for yourself alone or allow the other cachers to sign the FTF spot as well? Thoughts?

I usually claim it for myself and most times the cachers we meet when we find it say they don't want ftf I mean I don't either I just want the ftf coin.but if I'm looking and I found it than its mine why would it be anyone else's specially if you found it and they didn't

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I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same ...

 

But I bet you are not "catching flak" over ignoring your hide with a soggy log book. Oh wait, you just did.

Or let's go to half the geocaches in my area with a soggy look book and no one cares so what's your point

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Some people thought I "cheated" this out of state duo out of a FTF, that I should have shared it and because I didn't it was "unsportsmanlike" and it made the local geocaching community look bad.

 

It sounds like someone is crying because you didn't share the FTF with them, and they felt entitled to it? No wait, it was someone else who was not there at the time, who is complaining about something that does not concern them, and thinking it makes them look bad?

 

Yes, it certainly does reflect negatively on the caching community. Not what you did, however..

 

If I arrive at the coffee maker 3 seconds before someone else and pour myself the first cup, will my coffee taste any better than theirs? :unsure:

 

If you get it straight from the coffee maker it will, as the first cup is the strongest.

On my home coffee maker I specifically do NOT take the first cup exactly because it IS stronger. So for me, "second-to-pour" is best ... but FTF is better!

 

If you grab that first cup before the entire pot has been brewed, yes it will be stronger and I'm going to look at you like you just licked the icing off of the cupcakes. If you wait for the entire pot to finish, all of the cups will be the same. The strong coffee does not float to the top.

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First is a boolean. You either are or you are not. The whole concept of sharing or "granting a FTF" to somebody that isn't is bizarre.

 

"I was part of the first group to find the cache, thanks!"

 

Problem solved.

 

Over the years it has always amazed me how people want to apply strict logic to a topic if it supports their opinion, yet reject logic when it doesn't.

 

If I was the absolute first person to find the cache after it was hidden, then I am the FTF. That is logical. If, however, I forgot my pen and can't sign the log, then I didn't find the cache after-all. Where is the logic in that? If I drive to the store to buy a pen and someone else finds the cache before I get back, are they FTF?

 

I'd rather set the logic aside and just be civil to each other. It's logical that I no longer have to hold onto a door after I have passed through the doorway. That doesn't mean that I let it slam in the old ladies face who is following me.

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I ask because I am catching flak over doing this very same ...

 

But I bet you are not "catching flak" over ignoring your hide with a soggy log book. Oh wait, you just did.

Or let's go to half the geocaches in my area with a soggy look book and no one cares so what's your point

 

It is really quite sad that 50% of all the caches in your area have soggy logs. You've mentioned it numerous times and the situation apparently has not improved. Good luck. :(

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You are right to an extent. Yes, part of my question is as you state above, but the original question is still a valid one as well and IMO, the crux of the whole experience. It is because of the issue of sharing FTFs or not that it has come to the end result you quoted, namely that it irritated people.

But that's the problem: from your description, I can't even imagine how anyone could be irritated. That's why I asked what you actually did that you're describing as claiming the FTF "solo", and now I'm asking what the reaction was that you didn't like. Those are the source of your problem, not the fact that you met someone already looking for an FTF and you found it with them.

 

I think my first order answer was obvious: why wouldn't you share an FTF with anyone you could imagine wanted to share it?

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