Trespassing and Vandalism

[4wheelin_fool]

Entire flocks of sheep have been known to jump off of cliffs simply because others have.

I thought that was lemmings?

 

 

Lemmings became the subject of a popular misconception that they commit mass suicide when they migrate. It is not a mass suicide, but the result of their migratory behavior. Driven by strong biological urges, some species of lemmings may migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat. In such cases, many may drown if the body of water is so wide as to stretch their physical capability to the limit. This fact, combined with the unexplained fluctuations in the population of Norwegian lemmings, gave rise to the misconception.[9]

 

The misconception of lemming "mass suicide" is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors. It was well enough known to be mentioned in The Marching Morons, a 1951 short story by Cyril M. Kornbluth. In 1955, Disney Studio illustrator Carl Barks drew an Uncle Scrooge adventure comic with the title "The Lemming with the Locket". This comic, which was inspired by a 1953 American Mercury article, showed massive numbers of lemmings jumping over Norwegian cliffs.[10][11] Even more influential was the 1958 Disney film White Wilderness, which won an Academy Award for Documentary Feature, in which staged footage was shown with lemmings jumping into certain death after faked scenes of mass migration.[12] A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but were in fact launched off the cliff using a turntable.[13]

 

This same act was also used in the Apple Computer 1985 Super Bowl commercial "Lemmings" and the popular 1991 video game Lemmings, in which the player must stop the lemmings from mindlessly marching over cliffs or into traps. In a 2010 board game by GMT games, "Leaping Lemmings", players must maneuver lemmings across a board while avoiding hazards, and successfully launch them off a cliff.

 

Because of their association with this odd behavior, lemming "suicide" is a frequently used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences. This metaphor is seen many times in popular culture, such as in the video game Lemmings, and in episodes of Red Dwarf and Adult Swim's show Robot Chicken. In the 8th episode of season 1 of Showtime's The Borgias, the Pope's second son Juan refers to the college of cardinals as lemmings when they flee the Vatican in anticipation of an impending French invasion. The Blink 182 song "Lemmings" also uses this metaphor, as does the unrelated song of the same name by English progressive rock band Van der Graaf Generator (from their 1971 album Pawn Hearts), and the 1973 stage show National Lampoon's Lemmings starring John Belushi and mocking post-Woodstock groupthink.[14]

 

Well, that's what everyone else believes...

[+Don_J]

Unless it is an EC or has some special arrangement with TPTB, the onus is not on the CO to prove permission only to obtain it.

 

That's what many people do. However Flintstone5611 goes anyhow. He then insists that "you can't prove that there isn't permission", which enables him to go on the theory that it just might have approval from the landowner.

 

Then later insists that "the onus is not on the CO to prove permission only to obtain it". So this gives him the right to go where it is obviously forbidden, and blame the CO, despite obvious signage to the contrary.

 

I cannot wrap my mind around this distorted logic, but apparently there are others do the same thing. Signage suddenly means nothing because in theory it could be fine, but nobody has to prove it, and it's not your fault.

 

Not exactly. You see there are times when Groundspeak insists on permission, like ECs or when listings are in conservation areas or parks. I think that is brilliant! I can go in and search with the authority that I am not breaking the law. With other scenarios I have to trust that a cacher got permission as it is an honor system. If someone tells me there is a cache here, feel free to pay it a visit, then I will. If that leads to issues because of their lack of due diligence you will bet I will make it known in my log. Fortunately this has been in the minority of cases and has resulted in the overwhelming majority of my smileys being pleasant. On the occasions that I can count one one hand where proper permission was not granted or changed it was quickly rectified. I have the feeling that 8 years without an issue till now means that there are other factors at play than simply reckless caching. TPTB put the honor system in place, my following it should not be the problem.

 

So, you are going to abandon common sense and personal responsibility based on the fact that some total stranger exercised "due diligence" in regards to the guidelines and their cache placement? It is a very strange world you live in.

 

It'll be kind of hard to post a nasty log wearing handcuffs, or if some nutty property owner blows your head off with his shotgun.

[+Don_J]

To the OP,

 

Its reasonable to be mad, but name callings and etc is uncalled for. If I was you, I would handle this in a very professional way.

 

Have a nice day.

 

BTW, your story got many holes and you can get sue for a number of things you did in the last few days.

The fact is that any landscaping needs maintenance in 8 years! The OP's game - if I felt belligerent I'd call it a scam! - is to say "cachers, pay our $1700 in landscaping bills for 8 years." Ain't gonna happen, shouldn't happen, & it would be an injustice if it happened. No connection proven. Neighborhood kids wreck property, not the occasional cacher.

 

Have you looked at this "neighborhood"? This isn't exactly the suburban subdivision with 100 x 300 foot lots and the houses 25 feet apart you might be thinking. This is quite rural, and many of the residents are seasonal, according to the irate homeowner. The road across the street, where the 2nd, lesser discussed archived cache was located, is a dirt road.

 

In other words, little Johnny and Susie who live 500 feet from the cache didn't stroll down a tree lined sidewalk to play in the landscaping. Of course winter weather could have caused all the damage too.

Hes right about this. Its very rural in that area. Its in the mountain (just east of Willamette Pass) and there arent that many people living over there year around. The ski resort at Willamette Pass get 430 in/year. It might be a little less of where the cache is at. Some of the mountains north of there get way more per year. I got a feeling that the plowed up snow might damage the rock wall over the years. Once it get so high, they have to blow it over. This is serious snow country and very close to the birth of Willamette River (one of Oregon's major river). Its a well traveled pass over the mountain between Hwy 97 to I-5. A number of truckers take that route to bypass the Siskiyou Pass on I-5 to save fuel cost. Most of the cachers that found that cache are traveling through the area.

 

If you understand Oregon land use law(s) are, you will understand why you dont see much this type of home development all over Oregon. Its somewhat rare unless its grandfathered in.

 

The cache is somewhat a park and grab of what a number of finders told me since yesterday. Its not anywhere close to the lights and sign. If its a park and grab, the damage in the area would be min. So of what the OP said is blowing smoke and trying to scammed the finders and the CO.

 

The OP sounds like someone from Cal. His attitude is bad. Really bad. (sorry, this is a major pet peeve of mine about my neighbor state to the south)

 

Thanks for the information. It's too bad you couldn't find a way to convey it without maligning 38 million Californians.

[+Don_J]

The rock wall behind which the cache was placed, surrounds our large entrance sign and night time activated lighting system, maintained monetarily by all who own here.

While I can agree that the rock wall does surround you entrance sign, there's more to the story that you're conveniently leaving out. Based on a quick measurement using satellite images, the entire length of the rock wall is about 430 feet, and it extends 240 feet along Willamette Highway, 200 feet along Royce Mountain Way, and 100 feet along Blue Sky Way. The cache location is approximately 100 feet away from the sign along the portion beside Blue Sky Way. 100 feet is light years away when searching for a cache, especially one that you've proven yourself is actually pretty easy to find.

 

As far as the damage, I can understand the damage to the rock wall being caused by searching geocachers. I've seen such damage before, so I don't doubt that what you saw was a result of the cache. The damage to the decorative rockwork and irrigation box could potentially be caused by geocachers, but it still isn't clear how close this was to the cache. As for the cut wires, that almost definitely wasn't a geocacher. As far as I can tell, this wiring would be near the entrance sign, which is nowhere near the cache.

 

Some local probably got sick of being blinded by that big bright sign as he drives down the dark lonely highway every night, so he went and disabled it.

[+Don_J]

When I found it I had to PAF as it never occurred to me to do that.

The fact that you were able to PAF tells me someone else had previously found it, yet the cache still existed.

People, if you see a cache like this, don't just look the other way. Do something about it!

Ummm I did right away with info and photos to ironically the same reviewer who archived the cache along Route 58.

Sorry, poor wording. I didn't mean to imply that I found fault with anything you did. My frustration was directed toward the finders before you that didn't report the cache, or with the reviewer for not acting on that information if they did.

 

And there were numerous concerns about the hide. Here are a few.

 

Building was ripped open when we go there. just an fyi to the stf. who would rip open a siding on a building anyway? no cachers that i know. of course i dont know any who would hide a cache inside of a wall either. but thats just me.

 

but must agree with previous logs that I felt uncomfortable with its location. If permission had been granted for the placement, then it should be included on the cache page. Just saying

 

I got to ground zero late. I was surprised to see the side of the building ripped open; someones wanted an FTF more than I did

 

I agree with a previous cacher, felt like vandals, but made the find. Hope you had permission too

 

Walked by this location and ruled it out as being tout of bounds but then read the logs and realized it had to be there

 

I was able to find it but it made me uncomfortable doing so. I would most certainly believe it to be private property when it's under the building and no way permission could be given when it's up for lease.

 

Yet every one of you posted your comments in a Found it log? Maybe if you all would have respected the building owner's property, not found the cache and then posted DNF logs instead, the reviewer would have respected your NA logs.

[+etphoneme2plz]

Just read through all the posts. Learned a few things which is good. I would probably be one of the one's who looked for said cache (I assure you I wasn't, I live in Texas and never been to Oregon), because I would assume the CO had gotten permission like they were supposed to. If I'm uncomfortable about a cache location, I message the CO. Here's my example: There is a local cache in a family burial plot, which is now marked as a historical site. From descriptions I thought it would be right off the road. When I got to the site I discovered it is actually about 250 feet in the middle of a cornfield! Stopped me in my tracks. When I got home I messaged the CO to make sure it was OK to walk through this field. Turns out it is his/her family land and I have permission to do so. When the ground dries up some from all the rain we have gotten lately (thankfully) I will go searching!! Had they not answered me, I would not do this!! I guess I am lucky as Texas Parks and the local parks and rec in the towns I live closest to are OK with geocaching, even offer courses, hide geocaches and have planned geo-cache days!! I have only come upon this one cache that made me uncomfortable, but I will be doing the same thing should I ever come upon another one. I have also noticed a lot of the local CO's post on their cache page when they have permission from a church minister, business owner or land owner to place the cache which is VERY helpful!! As far as destruction? If I find I'm having to do more than turn over a few rocks or logs, I'm done. I firmly believe in CITO and will not tear up stuff to get to a cache, thankfully I haven't come across this issue either!! If I'm looking that hard I will message the CO for assistance/ clues!! Just adding my thoughts and experience, even as a fairly new cacher! Thanks and have a great day!!

[+OZ2CPU]

a CO is supposed to :

Ask for permission.

select the hide type and location, so it causes as little pain as possible for land owners,

and as much joy as possible for geocachers.

 

Sometimes a little bit of this fail.

 

it is expected to belive a geocacher always use common sense,

so in a clear case of a violation repport it !! and dont seek the cache !!

if doubt ask CO, make him put info on the page : this location is legal and there is a permission,

maybe even how to access the GZ might be a very good idea,

be honost in your logs,

and dont be scared of posting NA, NM, DNF, notes..

[+Flintstone5611]

 

So, you are going to abandon common sense and personal responsibility based on the fact that some total stranger exercised "due diligence" in regards to the guidelines and their cache placement? It is a very strange world you live in.

 

It'll be kind of hard to post a nasty log wearing handcuffs, or if some nutty property owner blows your head off with his shotgun.

 

Why would that be strange, I am absolutely positive you have had to do the same. Placing due diligence in quotes may seem clever, but it makes it appear that you are being sarcastic about this term. We are all expected to do our part and we police ourselves, things tend to get resolved quite quickly if there is a problem. It is the very rare exception that things go on for years that are beyond the scope of our guidelines. When I place a cache I do my homework, we are all expected to. I have learned that the vast majority of cachers in my area are good trustworthy people that are trying to have fun without causing problems (I say majority only because I haven't met them all). My common sense and personal responsibility has been reassured time and again, if it is ever challenged then I can act accordingly.

 

Thankfully I don't live in a trigger happy, war zone and have to worry about my neighbour looking for opportunities to kill me because I stepped on his grass... I only shop there. []

[+redsox_mark]

 

So, you are going to abandon common sense and personal responsibility based on the fact that some total stranger exercised "due diligence" in regards to the guidelines and their cache placement? It is a very strange world you live in.

 

It'll be kind of hard to post a nasty log wearing handcuffs, or if some nutty property owner blows your head off with his shotgun.

 

Why would that be strange, I am absolutely positive you have had to do the same. Placing due diligence in quotes may seem clever, but it makes it appear that you are being sarcastic about this term. We are all expected to do our part and we police ourselves, things tend to get resolved quite quickly if there is a problem. It is the very rare exception that things go on for years that are beyond the scope of our guidelines. When I place a cache I do my homework, we are all expected to. I have learned that the vast majority of cachers in my area are good trustworthy people that are trying to have fun without causing problems (I say majority only because I haven't met them all). My common sense and personal responsibility has been reassured time and again, if it is ever challenged then I can act accordingly.

 

Thankfully I don't live in a trigger happy, war zone and have to worry about my neighbour looking for opportunities to kill me because I stepped on his grass... I only shop there. []

 

I think this is more of a sliding scale than a binary choice. It seems reasonable to give a certain level of trust to the cache owner. Maybe you give more trust if he says something explicit; but even if the owner says "this cache is down a private drive but I live there and have full permission of the homeowners association" he could be lying. Or maybe he is telling the truth, but a new resident moves in who doesn't know and shoots you. So if people are smiling at me in a friendly way I might trust... if I see someone in their front yard with a gun I'll leave...

 

So I suspect we all make a combined decision based on some trust of the cache owner, and what we see with our eyes. We might each give different weight to what the owner says (or doesn't say) and make different decisions on each case.

 

I once wanted to find a cache in Ghana. The cache page said the hide had permission. Nobody had found it yet. I read past logs and several talked about being marched out of the area at gunpoint. I didn't try to find it.

[+Flintstone5611]

I think this is more of a sliding scale than a binary choice. It seems reasonable to give a certain level of trust to the cache owner. Maybe you give more trust if he says something explicit; but even if the owner says "this cache is down a private drive but I live there and have full permission of the homeowners association" he could be lying. Or maybe he is telling the truth, but a new resident moves in who doesn't know and shoots you. So if people are smiling at me in a friendly way I might trust... if I see someone in their front yard with a gun I'll leave...

 

So I suspect we all make a combined decision based on some trust of the cache owner, and what we see with our eyes. We might each give different weight to what the owner says (or doesn't say) and make different decisions on each case.

 

I once wanted to find a cache in Ghana. The cache page said the hide had permission. Nobody had found it yet. I read past logs and several talked about being marched out of the area at gunpoint. I didn't try to find it.

 

Finally a reasonable reply. I agree that you would have to temper your approach depending on what you see. I agree that there have been very easy caches that I have had to walk away from due to not having the circumstances to retrieve the cache. It has been quite rare that there has been an issue of permission, usually just about being discreet. I have seen caches that will point me into private property that is clearly marked with a fence or signage (such as No Trespassing) and have reported that on my log. The usual issue being that the coords are wrong, with a quick correction all is well in the world. It doesn't take much to figure it out when things are made clear, but in this circumstance the lines are less than crystal. This rock wall is a pile of rocks and so is subject to many forces and circumstances. If it was formed with concrete and was an actual structure I would be more on the side of the OP, but the pictures that we have seen is of rocks beside the road that barely resemble some kind of planned decoration. If I was a kid I would have a blast in that spot, I would chuck anything that I could lift and climb anything I couldn't, it would be so much fun. As geocachers we are there with a purpose and have the tools to get us within a pretty tight radius. I am far from the tree hugging hippies that I have encountered on these forums, but I am not irresponsible. Search for the cache and if you can't find it move on. That has always been my motto and always will, but there are some big issues with this story and I can't be satisfied that it is because of geocachers. I have some issues with an 8 year old cache that has never had a needs maintenance log and has 253 finds with only 13 DNFs. It was never meant to be tough it has proven to be find-able and without trespassing or causing damage. It has been already said, but I also smell someone cooking up scapegoat.

[+Mudfrog]

 

So, you are going to abandon common sense and personal responsibility based on the fact that some total stranger exercised "due diligence" in regards to the guidelines and their cache placement? It is a very strange world you live in.

 

It'll be kind of hard to post a nasty log wearing handcuffs, or if some nutty property owner blows your head off with his shotgun.

 

Why would that be strange, I am absolutely positive you have had to do the same. Placing due diligence in quotes may seem clever, but it makes it appear that you are being sarcastic about this term. We are all expected to do our part and we police ourselves, things tend to get resolved quite quickly if there is a problem. It is the very rare exception that things go on for years that are beyond the scope of our guidelines. When I place a cache I do my homework, we are all expected to. I have learned that the vast majority of cachers in my area are good trustworthy people that are trying to have fun without causing problems (I say majority only because I haven't met them all). My common sense and personal responsibility has been reassured time and again, if it is ever challenged then I can act accordingly.

 

Thankfully I don't live in a trigger happy, war zone and have to worry about my neighbour looking for opportunities to kill me because I stepped on his grass... I only shop there. []

 

I think this is more of a sliding scale than a binary choice. It seems reasonable to give a certain level of trust to the cache owner. Maybe you give more trust if he says something explicit; but even if the owner says "this cache is down a private drive but I live there and have full permission of the homeowners association" he could be lying. Or maybe he is telling the truth, but a new resident moves in who doesn't know and shoots you. So if people are smiling at me in a friendly way I might trust... if I see someone in their front yard with a gun I'll leave...

 

So I suspect we all make a combined decision based on some trust of the cache owner, and what we see with our eyes. We might each give different weight to what the owner says (or doesn't say) and make different decisions on each case.

 

I once wanted to find a cache in Ghana. The cache page said the hide had permission. Nobody had found it yet. I read past logs and several talked about being marched out of the area at gunpoint. I didn't try to find it.

 

Scaredy cat!

 

Seriously though, why wasn't that cache archived after the first "marched out of the area at gunpoint" log? Unlike the cache in the OP, there's no doubt that this one needed to be taken down.

[+redsox_mark]

 

Scaredy cat!

 

Seriously though, why wasn't that cache archived after the first "marched out of the area at gunpoint" log? Unlike the cache in the OP, there's no doubt that this one needed to be taken down.

 

Cache is still there, still not found.. BushCrawl

 

My memory fails me.. it seems there wasn't any mention of guns. In my memory there were guns. I wasn't trying to exaggerate. But it was this log which put me off...

 

"was approached by a dozen or so workers who appeared out of nowhere ... they were collecting rocks for a quarry I think and told me I needed permission to go any further, so I gave up before I even had a chance to climb I was way outnumbered ... and one of them even followed me back to the car wanting money so it was not really a happy hunt".

 

Now back to the Oregon case....

[4wheelin_fool]

Here is a sign recently posted in a Wildlife Management Area:

 

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=a9124ff8-e150-4055-b1de-8d0476a2c3bc

 

In this case, I would go in. The sign does not appear to be the official type placed by Wildlife Management officials. Plus there are reportedly several deer stands in the area. If it was on private land, then no, I would not.

 

Now a cache that you would have to pull apart a metal shed to find? Do you really need a sign saying don't do it? This is just asinine. I have no doubt that a cacher took it. E-mails to the reviewer ignored? Sounds like a breeding ground for a cache maggot cacher.

 

 

I didn’t think this was believable until I saw it.

 

 

You have to pull back the metal siding on a building that was for rent.

When I found it I had to PAF as it never occurred to me to do that.

[+redsox_mark]

Not sure I'd walk past that Posted sign. I agree it doesn't look official, but I'd be worried about meeting the person who put it up..

 

Here is one sign I walked past

 

 

The public footpath that leads to the cache goes through the gardens of a private house. The cache isn't on their property (it's half a mile or so away), and the path is a public right of way. So you are allowed to walk through their garden, though the residents aren't very friendly when you do. I didn't meet the grumpy man but I met his grumpy wife.

[+Don_J]

 

So, you are going to abandon common sense and personal responsibility based on the fact that some total stranger exercised "due diligence" in regards to the guidelines and their cache placement? It is a very strange world you live in.

 

It'll be kind of hard to post a nasty log wearing handcuffs, or if some nutty property owner blows your head off with his shotgun.

 

Why would that be strange, I am absolutely positive you have had to do the same. Placing due diligence in quotes may seem clever, but it makes it appear that you are being sarcastic about this term. We are all expected to do our part and we police ourselves, things tend to get resolved quite quickly if there is a problem. It is the very rare exception that things go on for years that are beyond the scope of our guidelines. When I place a cache I do my homework, we are all expected to. I have learned that the vast majority of cachers in my area are good trustworthy people that are trying to have fun without causing problems (I say majority only because I haven't met them all). My common sense and personal responsibility has been reassured time and again, if it is ever challenged then I can act accordingly.

 

Thankfully I don't live in a trigger happy, war zone and have to worry about my neighbour looking for opportunities to kill me because I stepped on his grass... I only shop there. []

 

You used the term. I quoted it. No sarcasm intended. But you do live in a strange world. It's like the idea that when driving, I stop and wait at all red traffic signals, therefore, everyone else must also do so because this is what is required. I no longer need to turn my head and glance down the street that I'm approaching because I know everyone always exercises due diligence and stops at red signals.

[+Flintstone5611]

 

So, you are going to abandon common sense and personal responsibility based on the fact that some total stranger exercised "due diligence" in regards to the guidelines and their cache placement? It is a very strange world you live in.

 

It'll be kind of hard to post a nasty log wearing handcuffs, or if some nutty property owner blows your head off with his shotgun.

 

Why would that be strange, I am absolutely positive you have had to do the same. Placing due diligence in quotes may seem clever, but it makes it appear that you are being sarcastic about this term. We are all expected to do our part and we police ourselves, things tend to get resolved quite quickly if there is a problem. It is the very rare exception that things go on for years that are beyond the scope of our guidelines. When I place a cache I do my homework, we are all expected to. I have learned that the vast majority of cachers in my area are good trustworthy people that are trying to have fun without causing problems (I say majority only because I haven't met them all). My common sense and personal responsibility has been reassured time and again, if it is ever challenged then I can act accordingly.

 

Thankfully I don't live in a trigger happy, war zone and have to worry about my neighbour looking for opportunities to kill me because I stepped on his grass... I only shop there. []

 

You used the term. I quoted it. No sarcasm intended. But you do live in a strange world. It's like the idea that when driving, I stop and wait at all red traffic signals, therefore, everyone else must also do so because this is what is required. I no longer need to turn my head and glance down the street that I'm approaching because I know everyone always exercises due diligence and stops at red signals.

 

So you must be the kind of person that waits for everyone to come to a stop before you can go, because it seems like you need to have your hand held on these decisions.

[+Don_J]

 

So, you are going to abandon common sense and personal responsibility based on the fact that some total stranger exercised "due diligence" in regards to the guidelines and their cache placement? It is a very strange world you live in.

 

It'll be kind of hard to post a nasty log wearing handcuffs, or if some nutty property owner blows your head off with his shotgun.

 

Why would that be strange, I am absolutely positive you have had to do the same. Placing due diligence in quotes may seem clever, but it makes it appear that you are being sarcastic about this term. We are all expected to do our part and we police ourselves, things tend to get resolved quite quickly if there is a problem. It is the very rare exception that things go on for years that are beyond the scope of our guidelines. When I place a cache I do my homework, we are all expected to. I have learned that the vast majority of cachers in my area are good trustworthy people that are trying to have fun without causing problems (I say majority only because I haven't met them all). My common sense and personal responsibility has been reassured time and again, if it is ever challenged then I can act accordingly.

 

Thankfully I don't live in a trigger happy, war zone and have to worry about my neighbour looking for opportunities to kill me because I stepped on his grass... I only shop there. []

 

You used the term. I quoted it. No sarcasm intended. But you do live in a strange world. It's like the idea that when driving, I stop and wait at all red traffic signals, therefore, everyone else must also do so because this is what is required. I no longer need to turn my head and glance down the street that I'm approaching because I know everyone always exercises due diligence and stops at red signals.

 

So you must be the kind of person that waits for everyone to come to a stop before you can go, because it seems like you need to have your hand held on these decisions.

 

It's your blank and white world that I don't live in. You expounded several times early in this thread that if someone places a cache, then it is absolutely okay for you to assume that he gained permission to do so, so you no longer need to use common sense and personal responsibility. This is complete nonsense and it's basically a cop out allowing you to rationalize the idea that you can do whatever you want and blame it on someone else. "Some stranger on a web site told me I could come here", isn't going to carry much weight when you're in handcuffs, 300' past the sign that tells you to stay out.

 

Common sense should tell you to stay out, just as common sense should tell you not to enter an intersection if you see a car approaching at 50 MPH that obviously isn't going to stop.

 

With that said, I do agree that you were probably the first to see through the OP's nonsense.

[ZeekLTK]

The OP sounds like a miserable (old) person. Oh no, some people moved a few rocks. lol

 

Find something enjoyable to do other than be mad about other people having fun...

Edited June 5, 2013 by ZeekLTK

[+Trucker Lee]

Sorry to stray.....But does anyone else see the irony in the land owner logging a find?

Had to find it to remove it, so totally correct.

 

This goes back to the permissions issue, and to poorly thought out hiding places. Landscaping features such as rock walls and decorative plantings do not make good locations, rocks get moved and branches get broken.

[+wmpastor]

 

So, you are going to abandon common sense and personal responsibility based on the fact that some total stranger exercised "due diligence" in regards to the guidelines and their cache placement? It is a very strange world you live in.

 

It'll be kind of hard to post a nasty log wearing handcuffs, or if some nutty property owner blows your head off with his shotgun.

 

Why would that be strange, I am absolutely positive you have had to do the same. Placing due diligence in quotes may seem clever, but it makes it appear that you are being sarcastic about this term. We are all expected to do our part and we police ourselves, things tend to get resolved quite quickly if there is a problem. It is the very rare exception that things go on for years that are beyond the scope of our guidelines. When I place a cache I do my homework, we are all expected to. I have learned that the vast majority of cachers in my area are good trustworthy people that are trying to have fun without causing problems (I say majority only because I haven't met them all). My common sense and personal responsibility has been reassured time and again, if it is ever challenged then I can act accordingly.

 

Thankfully I don't live in a trigger happy, war zone and have to worry about my neighbour looking for opportunities to kill me because I stepped on his grass... I only shop there. []

 

I think this is more of a sliding scale than a binary choice. It seems reasonable to give a certain level of trust to the cache owner. Maybe you give more trust if he says something explicit; but even if the owner says "this cache is down a private drive but I live there and have full permission of the homeowners association" he could be lying. Or maybe he is telling the truth, but a new resident moves in who doesn't know and shoots you. So if people are smiling at me in a friendly way I might trust... if I see someone in their front yard with a gun I'll leave...

 

So I suspect we all make a combined decision based on some trust of the cache owner, and what we see with our eyes. We might each give different weight to what the owner says (or doesn't say) and make different decisions on each case.

 

I once wanted to find a cache in Ghana. The cache page said the hide had permission. Nobody had found it yet. I read past logs and several talked about being marched out of the area at gunpoint. I didn't try to find it.

 

Scaredy cat!

 

Seriously though, why wasn't that cache archived after the first "marched out of the area at gunpoint" log? Unlike the cache in the OP, there's no doubt that this one needed to be taken down.

It'll be taken care of - on "island time. "

[+Otis.Gore]

See, now this is the reason why I never want to go caching in the States.

Either you get shot by some gun nut landowner or beaten over the head with a rule book by some law fanatic.

Hell am I glad I live in europe....

[+cheech gang]

Hell am I glad I live in europe....

 

So am I.

[+sparklefingers]

Hell am I glad I live in europe....

 

So am I.

 

Ditto.

[4wheelin_fool]

Hell am I glad I live in europe....

 

So am I.

 

Ditto.

 

I'm glad you all live in Europe. I'm also glad that Ohio is now part of Europe also.

Edited June 6, 2013 by 4wheelin_fool

[+larryc43230]

I'm glad you all live in Europe. I'm also glad that Ohio is now part of Europe also.

Wow, who knew? I'm glad my passport is up to date....

 

--Larry

[+SwineFlew]

Hell am I glad I live in europe....

 

So am I.

 

Ditto.

 

I'm glad you all live in Europe. I'm also glad that Ohio is now part of Europe also.

Hater will always hate.

[4wheelin_fool]

Hell am I glad I live in europe....

 

So am I.

 

Ditto.

 

I'm glad you all live in Europe. I'm also glad that Ohio is now part of Europe also.

Hater will always hate.

And that's why you shouldn't do it. Try using some smileys for a change.

[Clan Riffster]

See, now this is the reason why I never want to go caching in the States.

Either you get shot by some gun nut landowner or beaten over the head with a rule book by some law fanatic.

Or critiqued on the Internets by leftist loonies.