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Should a cache be archived if illegal activity is going on nearby?


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What happens when a cache is found to be located in a place where illegal activity is regularly occuring? That's the quandry I faced when I sought Hackensack Green Acres, and the Hackensack Sanctuary Cache. Both are located in a rarely used, but interesting (from an ecological POV) park along the Hackensack River. You can read my log for the full details, but basically after seeking these caches it came to my attention that this park is frequently used by gay men to hook up. Furthermore they engage in sex right in the park out in the open. I found myself followed while seeking the cache. I found newspaper articles confirming that in the summer of 2001 there were numerous raids of the park by police. Then there was this article all about how the park was a cool place to cruise for gay guys. I noted all this in my log & tried not think about it any more. Then this week this article confirmed that the problem has not gone away as 15 more men were arrested. This is troubling on several levels. Many people cache with children. Would you want to expose them to ANY sexual activity, be it hetro or homo? I wouldn't. Furthermore the undercover officers were approached by numerous men asking for or offering sex. I can to cache not get propositioned repeatedly.

 

Here's the question:

 

Should this cache be archived? Some of the logs subsequent to mine have noticed unusual activity, most have not. What do you think? I haven't contacted the owner because regardless of his decision I am curious what other people think, not just him.

 

Has anyone ever experienced anything like this in any other cache hunts? If so, what, if anything, was done?

 

******************************

Caching with a 5 year old: takes 2x as long, but its 2x as satisifying (or aggrevating depending on your POV)

******************************

The faster you go, the worse your reception is.

 

[This message was edited by Gwho on June 07, 2002 at 02:37 PM.]

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I would seriously recommend archiving or moving this cache. Here's why.

 

If you were out hunting for the cache, and the police decided to have one of their "raids", you would be in a world of hurt. The whole "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't come into play here. It's the other way around. You are guilty until proven innocent, and how are you going to prove you are not one of "those types"? My wife worked for the police department, so I have many instances of raids "gone wrong" for people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time (like a hitch-hiker who was in a car at the time of the raid and was arrested, even though he had no clue what was going on...)

 

Plus, I wouldn't want to bend over in this area while digging through the cache. icon_eek.gif Sorry, couldn't resist. But seriously...

 

Just my 2 cents...

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I would seriously recommend archiving or moving this cache. Here's why.

 

If you were out hunting for the cache, and the police decided to have one of their "raids", you would be in a world of hurt. The whole "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't come into play here. It's the other way around. You are guilty until proven innocent, and how are you going to prove you are not one of "those types"? My wife worked for the police department, so I have many instances of raids "gone wrong" for people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time (like a hitch-hiker who was in a car at the time of the raid and was arrested, even though he had no clue what was going on...)

 

Plus, I wouldn't want to bend over in this area while digging through the cache. icon_eek.gif Sorry, couldn't resist. But seriously...

 

Just my 2 cents...

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The article said the men had "exposed themselves to undercover" cops. If you were in the park but neither engaging in sexual activity, exposing yourself, nor engaging in other lewd or illegal activity you wouldn't be of interest to the cops.

 

Is the area really dangerous? Probably not. Was Gwho propositioned? Did anyone threaten him as a result of his turning down a proposition?

 

I wouldn't bring my kids to this park, but I don't think I would have anything to fear. If someone is trying to find out if you're interested, tell them no and they'll go away.

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quote:
Originally posted by KYtrex:

I don't even want to know what "thing" Stayfloopy

came across. I quote " _Only hard part was not getting poked by the thing with the many things that poke"_ . icon_confused.gif Pretty scary if you ask me icon_eek.gif


 

Urm... I believe I was referring to the short tree with many low branches that was right by the cache but I didn't want to reveal the location of the cache so I wrote that in a vague manner.

 

I'd say "Needless Markup" is scarier. icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by KYtrex:

I don't even want to know what "thing" Stayfloopy

came across. I quote " _Only hard part was not getting poked by the thing with the many things that poke"_ . icon_confused.gif Pretty scary if you ask me icon_eek.gif


 

Urm... I believe I was referring to the short tree with many low branches that was right by the cache but I didn't want to reveal the location of the cache so I wrote that in a vague manner.

 

I'd say "Needless Markup" is scarier. icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwho:

What happens when a cache is found to be located in an unsafe place? That's the quandry I faced when I sought

 

.... snip ....

 

_Should this cache be archived?_ Some of the logs subsequent to mine have noticed unusual activity, most have not. What do you think? (and no I havent contacted the owner because regardless of his decision I am curious what other people think, not just him.)

 

Has anyone ever experienced anything like this in any other cache hunts? if so, what, if anything, was done?

 

******************************

Caching with a 5 year old: takes 2x as long, but its 2x as satisifying (or aggrevating depending on your POV)

******************************

The faster you go, the worse your reception is.

 

[This message was edited by Gwho on June 06, 2002 at 03:32 PM.]


 

There are similar parks in the Indianapolis area. I think it is a good idea to bring your wife or SO. I do think that a cache in a place with that kind of reputation should be described on the cache page. Then each seeker can make an informed choice about visiting the area.

 

Bluespreacher

 

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps..." Wayne Kramer -- Citizen Wayne

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Perhaps I am missing something, but I don't understand what's "unsafe" about this place. Are you afraid of it simply because there are gay men in the park?

 

quote:
Originally posted by Gwho:

What happens when a cache is found to be located in an unsafe place? That's the quandry I faced when I sought http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=17733, and the http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=17727. Both are located in a rarely used, but interesting (from an ecological POV) park along the Hackensack River. You can read my log for the full details, but basically after seeking these caches it came to my attention that this park is frequently used by gay men to hook up. Furthermore they engage in sex right in the park out in the open. I myself found myself followed while seeking the cache. I found newspaper articles confirming that in the summer of 2001 there were numerous raids of the park by police. Then there was http://www.gayuniverse.com/cruise/1162.html all about how the park was a cool place to cruise for gay guys. Yech. I noted all this in my log & tried not think about it any more. Then this week http://www.northjersey.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?id=3812235 confirmed that the problem has not gone away as 15 more men were arrested. Add to this the fact that gay men were doing the same thing in public restrooms in Paramus malls, and you can see where this is leading.

 

_Should this cache be archived?_ Some of the logs subsequent to mine have noticed unusual activity, most have not. What do you think? (and no I havent contacted the owner because regardless of his decision I am curious what other people think, not just him.)

 

Has anyone ever experienced anything like this in any other cache hunts? if so, what, if anything, was done?

 

******************************

Caching with a 5 year old: takes 2x as long, but its 2x as satisifying (or aggrevating depending on your POV)

******************************

The faster you go, the worse your reception is.

 

[This message was edited by Gwho on June 06, 2002 at 03:32 PM.]


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I'm no homophobe, but if that place is anything like the one we have here, it's not the fact that Gay men frequent the place, it's that you are treated like a slab of frickin' meat. We have a spot in my city where that is done and although the well-forested area would be great for a cache there's NO WAY I'd ever place one there expressedly because of what goes on. I dunno when it happened, but just being male and present in that area at any time of day means you are open season for un-wanted harrasment. Doesn't matter if you bring your wife/girlfreind/pet rock, whatever. I steer clear of that place and I'd hate to subject any of that to un-knowing cachers. Apparently, a guy sitting in his car reading a city map with the passenger door unlocked in this place is some sort of code and people open your car door and get in and make lewd suggestions(now I can sympathize with women in bars).

 

Now, if it was a bunch of over-friendly girls out there roaming the park!!!... (oops double standard).

 

For the cache under discussion, I'd leave it there and make a note in the cache description.

 

[This message was edited by Zartimus on June 06, 2002 at 09:15 PM.]

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I did both of the caches in question. I went at approximately 8:30 a.m on a weekday morning, and there wasn't anyone else around. It's a very pretty park, especially the "Hackensack Sanctuary" site, and I didn't know anything about the "other activitiy" that goes on in it until I saw Gwho's log. I definitely didn't see any "evidence" of activity ... this was one of the cleaner riverside parks in the area, if I recall correctly.

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I don't see anything wrong with keeping the cache where it is but the cache owner needs to put some kind of warning on the cache page. I think most people would appreciate being forwarned of the potential activies they might encounter.

 

P.S. I am a homophobe. Homosapiens scare me to death.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

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A few days ago while hitting a new cache, I noticed some 'cruisey' activity in the parking lot. I made a note of this in my log. The only reason I care is that one might stumble upon an engagement in the woods. I wouldn't want that happening if I had the kids in tow. -WR

 

"Why worry when you can obsess?"

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well it appears to me that you guys now know how a woman must feel every time she goes out in public. Getting cruised by the boys?? Too funny.

 

I'm not so certain it presents any dangers. Plenty of logs have mentioned the gay aspect. So if you don't want your children to be exposed to this sort of thing then leave them home.

 

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

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Not sure "unsafe" is necessarily the concern. Describing this kind of behavior would be sort of like tick warnings. I wouldn't want to stumble upon hetereosexual couples engaged in what should be private behaviors either. An area like this developed in a county park in Miami a few years ago that was next to a Girl Scout camp. The inappropriate choices made by a few people devalued the land for everyone.

 

Be Seeing You!

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I had a similar experience in a local park. I was looking for my third cache in the park and saw the arrow on my gps suddenly jump to 3 o'clock. I had just passed a path leading up and into the woods so I doubled back and headed up.

 

To my surprise, there was a man sitting on a tree limb next to the path. He seemed caught off guard. He then stood up and zipped up his pants. icon_eek.gif er uuummm ehhhh....

 

I continued up the path with my face buried in my gps screen. The guy then started talking to me in Spanish. I looked up with a big smile and said "Hola". I felt pretty embarrased for the guy.

 

L.S.S., I had heard before I started caching that the park was a gay rendevous spot. I have been back to the park several times to leave bugs and would go back again. But next time maybe I should wear bells.

 

[This message was edited by mrplug on June 20, 2002 at 01:40 PM.]

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I had a similar experience in a local park. I was looking for my third cache in the park and saw the arrow on my gps suddenly jump to 3 o'clock. I had just passed a path leading up and into the woods so I doubled back and headed up.

 

To my surprise, there was a man sitting on a tree limb next to the path. He seemed caught off guard. He then stood up and zipped up his pants. icon_eek.gif er uuummm ehhhh....

 

I continued up the path with my face buried in my gps screen. The guy then started talking to me in Spanish. I looked up with a big smile and said "Hola". I felt pretty embarrased for the guy.

 

L.S.S., I had heard before I started caching that the park was a gay rendevous spot. I have been back to the park several times to leave bugs and would go back again. But next time maybe I should wear bells.

 

[This message was edited by mrplug on June 20, 2002 at 01:40 PM.]

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Ghwo -- have you looked at the clothes you are wearing in your photo ID? Looks pretty GAY to me... LOL

 

All it takes for evil to take over the world is for good people to stand by and do nothing. Maybe more normal people should visit this park and put the heat on those engaged in public sex acts where children are present? Make it uncomfortable for the weirdos, not the decent people.

 

I am not anti-gay. But I am against people doing this type of thing in public parks. Get a room.

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