What Irks you most?

[+HoochDog]

5 hours ago, lee737 said:

+1, I've thought this from the start, are they caches or not?

They're not.  It's a different game.  How do I know?  I enjoy one and not the other.  Similar?  Maybe.  But baseball and cricket are kind of similar too.  Doesn't mean the statistics for those games should be combined. The statistics should be completely separated.   Even if you enjoy both activities, I don't understand why anyone would want the stats for each to be indistinguishable.

[+thebruce0]

8 hours ago, lee737 said:

Why are these finds completely absent from our find history? - this irks me the most - the data is there, as Project-GC will list your last find as whatever AL location you did, if it was your last find. I wonder if Project-GC uses AL locs in county/country maps??

 

That's because the data is completely different. Showing AL data in statistics is effectively a hack - special code written to display what information it can glean from the data as if they were like geocaches. But the data is not geocache listings, and the finds are not logs on geocache listings. The code has to translate between the two. PGC has provided more statistics related to ALs than HQ has, and that's about as far as it can go. The code to provide souvenirs is based on geocache and related data.  They need to make very special code adjustments specific to ALs to make that work for them as well. Now, one can argue they should do that, but it's not as simple as "well it works for geocaches why not this?"

 

They are two separate, distinct experiences, from and back end, linked only by unique coding.

[+NanCycle]

14 hours ago, MNTA said:

11 hour layover at DFW (different kind of irk) was supposed to be 6 hours and spent most of those 6 hours either sleeping or eating breakfast after the red eye so no time to leave the airport.

 

Did the Adventure Lab Cache. But no Texas souvenir. I know they try to explain it away why, but that is lame. Write a procedure to cross reference the location of the icon with what state it is in. Come on GS add a field to the database. Hire a summer intern from UW if you need to.

 

Seriously if they want to merge the two games then merge them fully.  Geocaching is about locations, latitude, longitude and maps. I like my statistics and maps.

When I did the AL at Chicago O'Hare I got credit for Cook County (I already had 3 caches in another Illinois county)

[+lee737]

Funny how they are so different, and can't/shouldn't/won't be more aligned, but *somehow* they managed to make AL locations count as finds.... Call me a cynic, but I feel this was done to give their new baby a half chance of life?

So in some instances, hitting a six in cricket does score as a home run in baseball?

[+thebruce0]

Recap: "Lab Caches" were around long before Adventures and Locations. That was the origin of the new 'platform'. Lab Caches were not geocaches. They were experimental 'things'. And they only tied in by counting as a smiley when claimed. So no, they didn't 'make AL locations' count as finds.  Lab Caches were originally wrapped in to reward a smiley for a completion.

This is another reason the whole is kind of a mess when trying to understand it. ALs are not geocaches. Lab Caches are not geocaches. They're slightly twisted into the statistics by whatever similar properties could be explicitly translated and included. That's where the similarities end.

[+lee737]

5 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

So no, they didn't 'make AL locations' count as finds.

Of course they did.... AL's are about as far removed from the old 'lab cache' as you could get IMO. I remember being intrigued when ALs first came out, expecting cool gadgets like the old labs often were, and being a little disappointed that they were obviously just a string of virtuals.....

[+thebruce0]

You missed everything else I said. They didn't "make AL locations count as finds".  When they built Lab Caches (which are now effectively Locations) they were built separately and always rewarded a smiley on completion. The evolution of "Labs" into Adventures/Adventure Labs included "Lab Caches" which were still their own individual thing, just now grouped into an Adventure, just like a Geotour is a group of geocaches. I'm not defending this strategy, I'm just saying, this is how it got the way it is. Lab Caches always counted as +1 smiley. At least insofar as long before there was anything considered an Adventure or "Locations".

I say this because you said this: "but I feel this was done to give their new baby a half chance of life?" - No, Lab Caches were always +1 smiley. Adventures weren't even conceived yet. Since day 1 people were already debating about whether Lab Caches themselves should award a smiley, and it hasn't cooled down since, and I may even say grew more intense since Adventures were conceived and now have the appearance of awarding 5+ smileys for one "thing" (the Adventure) instead of completing 5 "things" for 5 smileys.

[+MNTA]

29 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

You missed everything else I said. They didn't "make AL locations count as finds".  When they built Lab Caches (which are now effectively Locations) they were built separately and always rewarded a smiley on completion. The evolution of "Labs" into Adventures/Adventure Labs included "Lab Caches" which were still their own individual thing, just now grouped into an Adventure, just like a Geotour is a group of geocaches. I'm not defending this strategy, I'm just saying, this is how it got the way it is. Lab Caches always counted as +1 smiley. At least insofar as long before there was anything considered an Adventure or "Locations".

I say this because you said this: "but I feel this was done to give their new baby a half chance of life?" - No, Lab Caches were always +1 smiley. Adventures weren't even conceived yet. Since day 1 people were already debating about whether Lab Caches themselves should award a smiley, and it hasn't cooled down since, and I may even say grew more intense since Adventures were conceived and now have the appearance of awarding 5+ smileys for one "thing" (the Adventure) instead of completing 5 "things" for 5 smileys.

 

I think we just disagree with GS they need to be merged or separated. If they remain as is, I hate to say it but the baby may be a little ugly, parents can be a little defensive but the problem is fixable. If there was a will GS could code it up, might be difficult but it still could be done. Software can be and is amazing. 

[+thebruce0]

Absolutely   I think people's issues right is just the current implementation, the connection between Adventures and Geocaching.  It's technology. Anything can technically be done, or improved. The question is, for those who approve and fund the work, is it worth it? I wouldn't be surprised if some programmer folk would be all for it, but if TPTB can't justify the cost, it won't happen. 

[+Gill & Tony]

On 12/24/2022 at 1:09 AM, HoochDog said:

 Even if you enjoy both activities, I don't understand why anyone would want the stats for each to be indistinguishable

But they are not indistinguishable, any more than my multi cache stats are indistinguishable from my traditional cache stats.

 

Lab caches are just another type of cache, and have been since long before adventures.  Go to a location, do whatever is necessary to complete the requirements for that cache type and claim the find.  Requirements vary by cache type.

[+DreamMachine74]

The way AL's have been implemented irks me, but I'm not going to delve deep into my dislike for the game because it's already been fairly well covered on thsi thread recently. Basically, it boils down to earning 5 geocache finds for every "adventure" despite the fact that these are not geocaches and are not part of a geocaching code, listing or experience, but are more like mini-virtuals. I've become a stickler to statistics based solely on cache finds, so when I see someone earn 5,000 "finds", I'm impressed, but still feel on the fence about how I should feel if they have 1,000 of them as AL finds. 

 

AL's are a grat concept, but the current way that they're integrated into geocaching rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't feel very well connected. I haven't done an adventure lab in years, and I only feel compelled to do some because there are physical geocaches hidden as bonus hides near me. (I also find bonus caches for AL's annoying frankly) I still need to delete the 15 AL finds I made 3 to 4 years ago...I've been deducting 15 from my find count since then. 

 

Yes, it may sound inane to be this stubborn about AL's, but I just don't like the way they've been weaved into the current geocache website/application.

[+MNTA]

4 hours ago, DreamMachine74 said:

The way AL's have been implemented irks me, but I'm not going to delve deep into my dislike for the game because it's already been fairly well covered on thsi thread recently. Basically, it boils down to earning 5 geocache finds for every "adventure" despite the fact that these are not geocaches and are not part of a geocaching code, listing or experience, but are more like mini-virtuals. I've become a stickler to statistics based solely on cache finds, so when I see someone earn 5,000 "finds", I'm impressed, but still feel on the fence about how I should feel if they have 1,000 of them as AL finds. 

 

AL's are a grat concept, but the current way that they're integrated into geocaching rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't feel very well connected. I haven't done an adventure lab in years, and I only feel compelled to do some because there are physical geocaches hidden as bonus hides near me. (I also find bonus caches for AL's annoying frankly) I still need to delete the 15 AL finds I made 3 to 4 years ago...I've been deducting 15 from my find count since then. 

 

Yes, it may sound inane to be this stubborn about AL's, but I just don't like the way they've been weaved into the current geocache website/application.

100% agree but not annoyed enough yet to delete finds.

[+Team Canary]

1 hour ago, MNTA said:

100% agree but not annoyed enough yet to delete finds.

I was!

[+DreamMachine74]

AL's count a hides too?? That's so odd. 

 

After my last post here, I deleted my "finds" from ALs and can now forget about my redundant (subtract 15 from my find count) rule.

[+THE CASTOFFS]

On 12/27/2022 at 5:18 AM, DreamMachine74 said:

AL's count a hides too?? That's so odd. 

 

After my last post here, I deleted my "finds" from ALs and can now forget about my redundant (subtract 15 from my find count) rule.

I think I may be a bit late to the party here but to save me trawling through the entire topic ( have tried various searches) can you tell me how to delete adventure lab logs and lab cache (as they were 'in the old days') logs. I used to have 20 lab cache finds from two Mega events, which I didn't have a problem with, but now I have another 21 from Adventure Labs which are distorting my statistics, one of which, as far as I am aware is completely rogue, a single 'find' which I don't even recognize. I have got to the point now where I would be happy to delete them all and in future just log the physical adventure lab bonus before deleting the adventure lab itself.

Thanks for any enlightenment.

 

[+JustFindingOurWay]

5 minutes ago, THE CASTOFFS said:

 I have got to the point now where I would be happy to delete them all and in future just log the physical adventure lab bonus before deleting the adventure lab itself.

Thanks for any enlightenment.

 

 

Simple. Go to https://labs.geocaching.com/logs (you'll have to log in with your geocaching id and password) and delete as you see fit.

[+THE CASTOFFS]

3 minutes ago, JustFindingOurWay said:

 

Simple. Go to https://labs.geocaching.com/logs (you'll have to log in with your geocaching id and password) and delete as you see fit.

Thank You, so easy when you know how (and where).

 

 

[+freddycougar]

the whole 'concept' of 'Adventure Labs' is flawed....and has nothing to do with REAL geocaching...it's an easy way out for those too lazy to hide REAL caches....and an easy way for the obsessive types to stack their 'numbers'...

Hate AL's, is there any chance they will be discontinued?  or at least removed from the Geocaching NUMBERS game?  Bring back more VIRTUALS or something, but these labs are the most annoying thing HQ has done.

[+TriciaG]

1 hour ago, freddycougar said:

the whole 'concept' of 'Adventure Labs' is flawed....and has nothing to do with REAL geocaching...it's an easy way out for those too lazy to hide REAL caches....and an easy way for the obsessive types to stack their 'numbers'...

Hate AL's, is there any chance they will be discontinued?  or at least removed from the Geocaching NUMBERS game?  Bring back more VIRTUALS or something, but these labs are the most annoying thing HQ has done.

Out of curiosity, what do you see as the difference between AL's and Virtuals? They're both not "real" geocaching. Is it simply the numbers stacking (1 "find" per stage)?

I've never done an AL and never plan to. I've done a grand total of 6 virtuals.

[+thebruce0]

Other than the very dramatic technical difference between Adventure Locations and Virtual Geocaches, Adventures are groups of "enter a keyword - earn a smiley" pit stops at the very simplest (how to get the keyword? the sky is [almost] the limit).  A Virtual is still managed by an owner who is obliged to verify that Found It logs are accompanied by an answer to the task(s) presented - there is a human involved in the completion. They also typically require more work than the equivalent of entering text into an automated prompt.  Key point is the intended function of logging both.

One can make the argument that posting a log with a photo of a statue is about as much work as entering a keyword from its plaque, but at best that's the lowest common denominator, and even so the former still requires more work, and the intention is that the CO verify the log whereas the Location completion is verified the moment the app says "Correct".

 

Now add the technical differences between the Virtual Geocaches as listings in the GC database with all its properties, and the Adventure concept in its own self-contained system with programmatic exceptions linking completion counts to geocache listing statistics, and the differences are quite noticeable.

 

I think ALs could have been created as geocache listings, but they understood that the concept was significantly different enough that they wanted them to be a separate type of experience entirely, for players and owners and reviewers.  Especially when over the years people have occasionally requested auto-logging geocaches with a QR code, which was regularly discussed and declined (for good reason, ymmv); there's no way automated anything would work with geocache listings, really.

 

One could think of geocache listings (physical and virtual) as being human centric, while Adventures were intended to be as automated and hands-off as possible. Very different from the intent of Virtual Geocache (and Earthcache) listings.

[+TriciaG]

Ah - thanks for the clarification! No wonder I don't want to do ALs. LOL!

[+Goldenwattle]

8 hours ago, freddycougar said:

the whole 'concept' of 'Adventure Labs' is flawed....and has nothing to do with REAL geocaching...it's an easy way out for those too lazy to hide REAL caches....and an easy way for the obsessive types to stack their 'numbers'...

Hate AL's, is there any chance they will be discontinued?  or at least removed from the Geocaching NUMBERS game?  Bring back more VIRTUALS or something, but these labs are the most annoying thing HQ has done.

I would be happy with one smilie for all 5 WPs, as some are fun to do. Also they should be checked and those just for quick numbers and no other purpose, deleted.

[+thebruce0]

1 hour ago, TriciaG said:

Ah - thanks for the clarification! No wonder I don't want to do ALs. LOL!

Well they can be fun and engaging if creatively designed. But so could geocaching challenges before they were zapped

I don't hate ALs; I just don't go out of my way to do them, like some segments of the world community

[+Goldenwattle]

47 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Should the same apply to power trails of guard rail mint tins? That becomes the start of the "wow factor" slippery slope that led to the grandfathering of virtuals.

Personally I wouldn't mind if most power trails were got rid of. It's nice to have an occasional one; something to experience, but not the countryside littered in them. The more power trails the less interest for me in finding them. In fact, the less interest in geocaching for me. My interest goes down as cache numbers go up. Now I often pin point certain caches and ignore many others*. Power trails though were of use to me when I was looking after my invalid mother. Power trails I could take my mother for an outing in the car with me, as I went caching.

This is my personal feeling and I am not pushing for this, as a row of mint tins in guard rails are still not as bad as 'power' trails of ALs. Next WP ten metres.

* This is how I cached recently on trips to Melbourne and Sydney. I caught trains, etc to chosen caches, and that might only be for one cache. I ignored the others, unless I happened to walk past it getting to the chosen cache. Then back on the train and off to another.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Goldenwattle

[+thebruce0]

13 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

My interest goes down as cache numbers go up.

I'm sorry that's how you feel... the more geocaches there are out there to find, the less those numbers affect my desire to still find the geocaches I want to find (unless they take up places and ideas that would otherwise have been more enjoyable for me - but that sounds different than the point you're making about the mere fact that there are more to find makes you want to cache less)

[+Gill & Tony]

There are many people in this thread who dislike - hate even - Adventure labs.  May I offer a simple suggestion to those folk:  Don't download the app, delete the app if you have already loaded it and if Groundspeak offers you an AL credit, ignore it.

 

That way you don't have to get involved in the game you hate, but those of us who do enjoy it can continue to do so.

 

All this whinging and moaning about aspects of the game is what led to the emasculated version of challenge caches which we have today.  Many really good challenges can no longer be made because folk  whinged about them.

 

Maybe you don't like AL's.  Fine - ignore them.  I don't like high-terrain caches - I'll just ignore them.  But what I won't do is complain about them and try to get them removed.

 

[+MNTA]

On 12/28/2022 at 5:18 PM, barefootjeff said:

 

Should the same apply to power trails of guard rail mint tins? That becomes the start of the "wow factor" slippery slope that led to the grandfathering of virtuals.

I sometimes like GRCs

[+MNTA]

1 hour ago, Gill & Tony said:

There are many people in this thread who dislike - hate even - Adventure labs.  May I offer a simple suggestion to those folk:  Don't download the app, delete the app if you have already loaded it and if Groundspeak offers you an AL credit, ignore it.

 

That way you don't have to get involved in the game you hate, but those of us who do enjoy it can continue to do so.

 

All this whinging and moaning about aspects of the game is what led to the emasculated version of challenge caches which we have today.  Many really good challenges can no longer be made because folk  whinged about them.

 

Maybe you don't like AL's.  Fine - ignore them.  I don't like high-terrain caches - I'll just ignore them.  But what I won't do is complain about them and try to get them removed.

 

 

I started this most recent discussion on AL. Don't hate them, don't love them either. My irk was that the ALs were not linked with the rest of geocaching except as a find number. Did a AL in the Dallas Texas airport, but because they somehow don't have location information the same way other caches are did not get my first find in Texas. This disappointed me.

 

Others irks that I agree with is there is little to no maintenance or ability to flag problems or issues. I do agree with the point that one find should be for completing the entire AL not each stage.

 

Personally I believe if some effort was made to merge ALs into geocaching.com a lot of these complaints would go away. I don't think ALs will go away GS has invested heavily in this and my desire and possibly others is to improve the overall experience.

 

Oh and my ignore list currently has 624 caches on it. Mostly puzzle caches which I have no clue even where to start and don't feel like begging the CO with questions on how to even begin let alone solve. Maybe that is a new irk, well in my case as you suggested I just make them go away.

Edited December 30, 2022 by MNTA

[+cerberus1]

13 hours ago, Gill & Tony said:

There are many people in this thread who dislike - hate even - Adventure labs.  May I offer a simple suggestion to those folk:  Don't download the app...

 

   I'm one.  We agree though, and we never loaded the app when we found that unlike a multi, these things gave one a "point" for each stage. 

The only reason (I feel) is they've become so popular and multis went the way of the dodo. 

I remember people being upset when multiple finds on a single cache were removed (May '17). 

 - Some even logged their own caches every time they did maintenance.  Sheesh...  

A recent thread did have a lackey say this was a game, and games need points, so maybe this is the future of this hobby...

[+freddycougar]

On 12/28/2022 at 11:10 AM, TriciaG said:

Out of curiosity, what do you see as the difference between AL's and Virtuals? They're both not "real" geocaching. Is it simply the numbers stacking (1 "find" per stage)?

I've never done an AL and never plan to. I've done a grand total of 6 virtuals.

see the post below mine...explains it all..a Virtual NORMALLY takes one to interesting places with a requirement to DO something/answer questions, etc...key here is INTERESTING...and they've been part of the game for a long time until HQ tightened up on them...I'm not arguing with anyone, I just see that a LOT of people will 'prepare' LABS for others but won't hide a damned regular cache.....that has HURT geocaching where I live...I won't do the AL's and would love to see them disappear...anything that requires a separate app isn't part of the 'real' game/hobby...JUST MY OPINION

[+DreamMachine74]

6 minutes ago, freddycougar said:

see the post below mine...explains it all..a Virtual NORMALLY takes one to interesting places with a requirement to DO something/answer questions, etc...key here is INTERESTING...and they've been part of the game for a long time until HQ tightened up on them...I'm not arguing with anyone, I just see that a LOT of people will 'prepare' LABS for others but won't hide a damned regular cache.....that has HURT geocaching where I live...I won't do the AL's and would love to see them disappear...anything that requires a separate app isn't part of the 'real' game/hobby...JUST MY OPINION

Agreed. Al's are nice enough for those who enjoy them, but I see geocachers spending more time on building and finding them nowadays, and it's making it so there's less people hiding caches. That's just from my understanding.

[+colleda]

As I have been a GPSr cacher, and still am, I never got the point of the LAB caches and the need for an extra app.

I now occasionally use my smart phone but mainly when doing maintenance and still don't consider ALs as proper caches so I left it at that. Never found one and likely never will.

[+KukriRSA]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:09 AM, Goldenwattle said:

Probably a good idea. I wasn't thinking. Still mention what the property owner said.

I was thinking about those couple of of recent logs. Saying what the property owner said and that the cache had been stolen a long time ago, would make it obvious the last two didn't find it and were lying about finding it. I dislike those who can't find a cache, but still log a find, simply for being there. There, another irk.

The place near where the original traditional cache was (the one that is missing) qualifies as an Earthcache (it is called the Earthship, an eco house built into the slope) and thinking about it, perhaps the people who logged the missing cache thought that visiting the Earthship was actually the intention of the cache. I have asked for the trad cache to be archived and am placing the Earthship as an Earthcache.  

[+HoochDog]

On 12/25/2022 at 1:36 AM, Gill & Tony said:

But they are not indistinguishable, any more than my multi cache stats are indistinguishable from my traditional cache stats.

 

Lab caches are just another type of cache, and have been since long before adventures.  Go to a location, do whatever is necessary to complete the requirements for that cache type and claim the find.  Requirements vary by cache type.

Groundspeak makes a big deal (or at least some deal) about milestone finds. 
It has an entire tab on the profile statistics page.  There are geocoins created to mark these events.
I made a big deal about my 1000th find.  I targeted a specific cache that was meaningful for that find.
Somewhere after 1000, I tried adventure labs.  These AL's are now part of my total, which I don't care for, and I don't count them as part of my real total finds.
I can delete them, but they are a part of my history, so I'll leave them there for that reason.
When I was getting close to 2000 finds, I had no idea which cache was going to be the 2000th cache.
I'm not going to access my statistics page and do subtraction every time just to see "is this the 2000th cache"?  It is for this reason that I color them as indistinguishable.
So, for me, find count is now a meaningless statistic, (as all statistics should be). 
I still enjoy caching for the adventure and smiles. 
 

[+GeoElmo6000]

On 12/30/2022 at 6:22 PM, colleda said:

As I have been a GPSr cacher, and still am, I never got the point of the LAB caches and the need for an extra app.

I now occasionally use my smart phone but mainly when doing maintenance and still don't consider ALs as proper caches so I left it at that. Never found one and likely never will.

 

I feel the same though I have 9 lab caches as part of my stats.  I recently created a second geocaching account (basic member level) for lab caches so I can log lab caches without affecting my geocaching stats.  I was able to clear a mystery cache off my map by first finding the lab caches with my alt account, then logging the mystery cache with my main (this) account.  I see Adventures as a separate game run by Groundspeak and now I have a separate account for that other game.  I don't plan to go out and find lab caches but now I'm prepared just in case.

[+Gill & Tony]

I don't understand the problem.  Lab caches are caches.  OK, Groundspeak does a lousy job of their implementation, but if you find a lab cache it is a find, just like any other cache.

 

I have a 2582 finds including 144 lab caches.  I found 11 of those Lab caches before Adventures were a thing.  At the two Mega events I attended, Lab caches were put out independently of any adventure and they had a theme within the event.  The best adventures (and a majority in my experience) have a theme and the Lab caches follow that theme.  To the best of my knowledge, nobody complained when we found 10 Lab caches one after the other at Alexandra, but there are lots of complaints when we find five one after the other in an adventure.

 

I know Waymarking is a different thing, but I don't hear any complaints because you can get multiple "finds" at one location.  An Art-Nouveau building with the construction date clearly displayed, housing a Post Office, which used to house a bank and has interesting door handles can get you 5 finds for a single photo.

 

Like HoochDog I don't access my Groundspeak Statistics page.  In my case because the stats are inaccurate, incomplete and limited.   They don't include stats from other listing sites, they get the date wrong on half my lab caches (which destroyed my "most caches in a day" figure) and they simply don't allow the user to express the statistics in other ways.  I use GSAK and FSG for my stats and post them on my own site.  As far as I'm concerned Groundspeak stats are irrelevant.

[+GeoElmo6000]

4 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I want that to be 2000 cache finds, not 1500 plus 100 ALs

 

Well you're in luck because 1500 cache finds plus 100 ALs won't mess up your 2000th cache.  It might mess up your 1600th cache though.  

 

ETA oh are you implying 5x100 for the 5 stages of an Adventure?  I think the terminology is messing me up, because the "container" is an Adventure and the individual components are lab caches.  So by calling them ALs it's sort of a misnomer on Geocaching HQ's part.  

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by GeoElmo6000

[+Team Canary]

56 minutes ago, Gill & Tony said:

I don't understand the problem.  Lab caches are caches. 

 

Nope, I have to disagree.

 

Where's my online log? Where's the owner's email of my log? Where is it in my D/T grid? Where's the logbook? Why do I have to answer a question? Why are they within 161metres? Why is there one at the same location as another cache? Why does it only count in some of my statistics? Etc....

 

They would be a great way to have implemented a new style of Multi Caches, as they are now virtually non-existent.

[+GeoElmo6000]

39 minutes ago, Team Canary said:

 

Nope, I have to disagree.

 

Where's my online log? Where's the owner's email of my log? Where is it in my D/T grid? Where's the logbook? Why do I have to answer a question? Why are they within 161metres? Why is there one at the same location as another cache? Why does it only count in some of my statistics? Etc....

 

They would be a great way to have implemented a new style of Multi Caches, as they are now virtually non-existent.

 

I agree with all your points, and I'll add one: lab caches don't have location properties.  So in my recent layover in a new country, I couldn't find a lab cache and earn a new souvenir.

 

I explain Adventures this way: it's a location-based game created by Groundspeak but it's not geocaching.  The fact that GCHQ combines the find count confuses this matter.  

 

You'll never see GCHQ say Adventures and geocaches are the same.  A quick scroll through the geocaching blog:

 

"Another year of geocaching is over and what a year it was. 2022 was full of new geocaches and Adventures"

"Start seeing how many nearby caches you can find and you might be surprised how much walking distance you can cover on a geocache or Adventure outing."

and so on.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by GeoElmo6000
Fixed poor grammar

[+Gill & Tony]

I guess it depends upon your definition of "Cache".

 

Go to a location, perform some action there, if required go to one or more other locations and perform an action at each, and after you have successfully completed the necessary actions you get awarded a find on one of the geocache listing services.  That is a cache, at least to me.

 

I agree that Groundspeak's implementation of lab caches is terrible.  All the things we take for granted with other cache types are missing.  I agree that Lab caches should have been taken out of the "experimental" bucket and made mainstream long ago.  But that, at least to me, doesn't stop these half-hearted things from being caches.

[+Gill & Tony]

3 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

You'll never see GCHQ say Adventures and geocaches are the same.

True.  Adventures and caches are not the same.  An adventure is a wrapper for (usually) up to 5 Lab Caches.  You don't have to perform any action at the posted coordinates of an adventure, you can't claim a find for an adventure.

 

[+colleda]

I irked myself during a cruise stop in Darwin, Australia. Due to time constraints, and having left my GPSr at home, I didn't have time for geocaching except for two caches I'd previously DNF'd. They happened to be on my route walking from the car rental, where I'd dropped off a car, back to the ship. I'm irked because I Dnf'd both for a second time.

A NT cacher, whose handle I have forgotten, probably knows them. One was near an elevator which takes you up and down a hill to reach the port or city and the other was near a pub IIRC, hidden on some fire hydrant plumbing near a pub. Could be a while before I get back there to remedy my DNFs.

Not taking my Garmin also irks me.

Edited January 18, 2023 by colleda
confusion over cacher names

[+lee737]

56 minutes ago, colleda said:

Not taking my Garmin also irks me.

+1.... I've used my phone for navigation more than usual this week, this has proved to me how much better the Garmin is for navigation..... not just accuracy, this can vary - but just always being navigating.... not asleep, no other apps running, no unlocking the screen/switching apps then waiting for the GPS to resettle.... it just keeps pointing where I need to go.

[+Goldenwattle]

51 minutes ago, lee737 said:

+1.... I've used my phone for navigation more than usual this week, this has proved to me how much better the Garmin is for navigation..... not just accuracy, this can vary - but just always being navigating.... not asleep, no other apps running, no unlocking the screen/switching apps then waiting for the GPS to resettle.... it just keeps pointing where I need to go.

Exactly. No need to put your pin in again because you actually touched something and switched it off. No need to search and bring up the cache again. The Garmin, just keeps on keeping on.

Almost the only place I find a phone better (and worth putting up with these shortcomings mentioned), is among very high tall buildings, where GPSs really struggle. 

[+Oxford Stone]

On 1/10/2023 at 3:55 PM, HoochDog said:

So, for me, find count is now a meaningless statistic, (as all statistics should be). 
 

Don't say that to an economist, an environmentalist or a virologist - they've all been flinging stats at us for years! Everyone knows that only 87% of statistics are meaningless...

On the adlab thing - I know a cacher who set up a separate profile for them so that he could do them to qualify for the bonuses (he likes mystery caches) - and had a massive run-in with the CO who was deleting his bonus finds saying he'd not qualified! That ran and ran.

I've been using adlabs when I've come across them - useful for my self-imposed challenge of doing 10 calendar loops by 29 Feb 2024. Not tempted to set my own. Numbers distorted, yes - but for the last 3 years life's been pretty distorted anyway so I just go with the flow and enjoy occasionally being shown something interesting.

Adlab dislikes: sequential ones; airport ones; ones with huge distance tolerances so you can solve from your armchair; ones where you have to Google for the answer rather than find something in the field but there's no indication of this (a lot of this in Spain). 

[+CCFwasG]

5 hours ago, Oxford Stone said:

Don't say that to an economist, an environmentalist or a virologist - they've all been flinging stats at us for years! Everyone knows that only 87% of statistics are meaningless...

On the adlab thing - I know a cacher who set up a separate profile for them so that he could do them to qualify for the bonuses (he likes mystery caches) - and had a massive run-in with the CO who was deleting his bonus finds saying he'd not qualified! That ran and ran.

I've been using adlabs when I've come across them - useful for my self-imposed challenge of doing 10 calendar loops by 29 Feb 2024. Not tempted to set my own. Numbers distorted, yes - but for the last 3 years life's been pretty distorted anyway so I just go with the flow and enjoy occasionally being shown something interesting.

Adlab dislikes: sequential ones; airport ones; ones with huge distance tolerances so you can solve from your armchair; ones where you have to Google for the answer rather than find something in the field but there's no indication of this (a lot of this in Spain). 

Hello @Oxford Stone long time no see! (Miss you all...) I have to just say +1... agree with all your dislikes. (*Especially* sequentials... they very rarely make sense, and often make you backtrack... these days I don't do them unless they are in a tight close location.)

[+CCFwasG]

Having been irked a lot lately by two things, I thought I should add to the thread. I have no doubt one of my "irks" is here already. (I'm not able to read 88 prior pages!)

 

My first comment, surely already noted many times, is that Ad Labs give you one find for each stop. I find it so ridiculous, and while I get that they didn't want to change it once they (surely) realized that it was silly, it still frustrates me! I am in the school of belief that a completed AL should = one find. I also believe they could switch it back, outcry around Groundspeak decisions does not always mean a drop in subscribers etc. :-) 

My biggest irk is different, however. While I am a former rower and have spent time in canoes, kayaks and paddleboards - and I swim - the fact that I find it near impossible to find any T5s to complete my fizzy that ARE NOT boat-needed... well, it REALLY irks me. For starters, once you learn, a kayak is not difficult to row. In fact making water caches T5s seems ridiculous to me because all it means is this: you HAVE to have access to a boat. Period. Most of them are easy once you have water access. That's not T5 IMHO! And it excludes a lot of people, myself included. I believe the T5 rating was meant for things like climbing mountains. I'm currently living in the midst of a mountainous area where there could easily be T5s that are tough to hike to... but nope. Not many. I have to venture far and wide to fill my last few fizzy spots. So that's my rant. Surely someone agrees?! :-) 

[+lee737]

Misrepresented puzzles.... generally by expert puzzlers who grade them for other expert puzzlers, rather than the average punter.

ie. the D1.5 puzzle that involves finding a hidden image file in a description image (or using view source to find it), then finding a specific (at least themed to cache page) wiki article to build coords from numbers/info on the hidden image.

No - not a D5 by any stretch, but for newer cachers, probably near impossible. Then the hide is well off track in steep scrubby terrain, you can bet your butt it won't be D1.5 either....

 

 

[+Goldenwattle]

  

4 hours ago, CCFwasG said:

T5s to complete my fizzy that ARE NOT boat-needed

Several of those T5s I have swum to, so not everyone takes a boat. Try signing a log while you are treading water in a current. Easier if the cache is on an island; even if having stared at the island long enough (this only recommended for lonely places) have decided , 'what the heck', pulled your clothes off and taken the swim.

[+Mysterion604]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:33 PM, barefootjeff said:

 

Yes, one AL typically equals 5 Adventure Lab caches and counts as 5 finds.

 

That's the biggest thing about AL's which irks me. Should be 1 for completing it, regardless of how many stages.

(A multi with virtual waypoints does not pile on the find count, and those are generally harder.) If AL's adhered to this completion = 1 rule, then they might count towards something for challenges. As it is, "lab caches" (stages really) is a listed stat, but fairly useless to know. Divide by 5 to see the actual achievement... maybe.  

 

I guess the only other irksome thing about AL's for me is the inability to see the stages/waypoint locations without opening the app and starting the AL (something which eats power like crazy on my phone).

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by mysterion604