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What Irks you most?


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On 8/30/2020 at 11:37 AM, L0ne.R said:

This is one I visited.

 

Screenshot_1.png.ea2b37f9b8479a7b4c677975d79a2bc0.png

 

So many things wrong with this cache:

  • Playground
  • Remove 4 screws. Stand there for about 10 minutes or longer dismantling and putting it back together, prolonging your exposure to concerned parents and curious kids
  • It's an electric conduit box (a huge irk because it sends the message that geocachers think that playing with and dismantling public electric equipment is a legitimate form of fun)
  • It's a guideline infraction for screwing it to a playground sign post

I've had a similar cache  (by which I mean it was a box, but not one exactly like this) and resolved the issue by using magnets to hold the cover plate onto the box.  The screws were left in place but cut off on the back side of the cover plate -- they never engaged the threads on the box.  I figured if you can pull the cover off with your hand while looking at 4 screws that ought to have been holding it firmly in place, it's fair game.

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On 8/11/2020 at 8:45 PM, Max and 99 said:

Reminds me a little bit of a log I got today. "I didn't have a pencil with me so you'll have to accept a photo as proof."

 

I do?

 

I have done that. Didn't bring a pencil on our hike because we were hiking and I said mistakenly...lets look to see if a cache is near by. Took a photo for proof along with the TB that was in the cache. What is wrong with that? When do we start to become dictators of our cache hides?

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7 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

I have done that. Didn't bring a pencil on our hike because we were hiking and I said mistakenly...lets look to see if a cache is near by. Took a photo for proof along with the TB that was in the cache. What is wrong with that? When do we start to become dictators of our cache hides?

Since 2000. 

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14 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

I have done that. Didn't bring a pencil on our hike because we were hiking and I said mistakenly...lets look to see if a cache is near by. Took a photo for proof along with the TB that was in the cache. What is wrong with that? When do we start to become dictators of our cache hides?

 

Sorry, but them's the rules of the game:

 

Quote
  1. Find the cache.
  2. Sign the logbook.
  3. Trade SWAG or trackables.
  4. Put the cache back exactly as you found it.

 

 

A CO might be willing to overlook your transgression of rule 2 and accept a photo in lieu, but that's entirely their call, not yours. At the game's core, the logbook is meant to be the definitive record of finds on the cache.

 

On those occasions when I've found myself caught short (of a pen), I've either gone off in search of somewhere I could buy one or improvised with a twig or a gumnut. All my own caches have pencils in them to try to avoid that situation, but I still got one "forgot my pen so took a photo" log where the cacher didn't even bother to open the container to look.

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I can understand why sometimes there's confusion on whether or not signing a log is an integral part of the game. But I'm still confused. Is this cache owner checking after every online log? There'd be no reason to expect a photo unless the physical log isn't signed. Oh... maybe if you say in your log that you didn't have a pen and didn't sign it. Maybe that's how the CO knows to expect a photo. I don't think I'd give an option on the cache page. 

 

"If you can't sign the log for some reason, you MUST take a photo of the cache and send it to me. Failure to do so will result in your log being deleted without warning."

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6 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I can understand why sometimes there's confusion on whether or not signing a log is an integral part of the game. But I'm still confused. Is this cache owner checking after every online log? There'd be no reason to expect a photo unless the physical log isn't signed. Oh... maybe if you say in your log that you didn't have a pen and didn't sign it. Maybe that's how the CO knows to expect a photo. I don't think I'd give an option on the cache page. 

 

"If you can't sign the log for some reason, you MUST take a photo of the cache and send it to me. Failure to do so will result in your log being deleted without warning."

 

I don't check for a signature in the logbook after every online log, but with some of my hides I often go and check to make sure the cache has been put back properly afterwards. If I get a log like this one, though, I'll almost certainly go and check:

 

image.png.f1cf1817dc7da8fb816378295a179709.png

 

If I find there's no signature that in any way matches an online log, I'll send the logger a message seeking clarification, and if they don't respond within a few weeks I'll follow that up with an email, then if there's no response after a few more weeks I'll delete the log. I had to do that recently on a T4 multi where it was pretty clear the logger (one of the many newbie premium members who've never visited the website) only got as far as the first waypoint.

 

If they respond to my query and can substantiate their claim to have actually found the cache I'm happy enough to let the log stand, but it's rather tiresome (and irksome) when they either don't respond at all or get all stroppy about it.

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3 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

I have done that. Didn't bring a pencil on our hike because we were hiking and I said mistakenly...lets look to see if a cache is near by. Took a photo for proof along with the TB that was in the cache. What is wrong with that? When do we start to become dictators of our cache hides?

The considerate thing to do, which is what I do, if for the rare time I don't have a pen (I usually have two with me), is DON'T log until given permission by the CO. Send a polite message and photographic proof of find to the CO, explain why you didn't have a pen and ask permission to log. I do that, and it isn't onerous. So far I have never had a refusal. I also would not refuse a log like that, and would appreciate a considerate cacher who didn't think it was their right to do what they like. However if the CO is in turn not polite enough to return my message, after two or so weeks, I would log and include the photographic proof. I haven't had a log refusal, but if I did because I didn't have a pen, I would disappointingly have to accept their decision. NOT argue. Because proof of find is my signature. If I could I would then return and sign the log.

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3 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

Since two days ago. 

The rules are, sign the log. Easy to understand and accept. If a CO accepts photographic evidence, fine, but you must not expect it as a given and accept the CO's decision. Contact the CO with the photographic proof before logging a find. It's presumptuous to do otherwise.

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3 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

On those occasions when I've found myself caught short (of a pen), I've either gone off in search of somewhere I could buy one or improvised with a twig or a gumnut.

I've signed with charcoal - a burnt stick. I did photograph this though, as charcoal might rub off, but the log was signed as per the rules.

I carry two pens, and when on a day in Cairns this year (a port of call for my cruise ship) and my pen ran out I though I was fine, and pulled out the spare pen. One signature later it also ran out of ink. What's the odds! But it did. I didn't presume to just photograph the logs; instead I went off to find a pen to buy before continuing.

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

Is this cache owner checking after every online log?

A non signed log will be discovered when the routine check of the log happens. That check might not happen for a year or so, but it will happen if the CO is doing their job.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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42 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

If I find there's no signature that in any way matches an online log, I'll send the logger a message seeking clarification, and if they don't respond within a few weeks I'll follow that up with an email, then if there's no response after a few more weeks I'll delete the log.

I give them a couple of weeks to respond and then delete.

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

If you can't sign the log for some reason, you MUST take a photo of the cache and send it to me. Failure to do so will...

 

1 minute ago, Goldenwattle said:

A non signed log will be discovered when the routine check of the log happens.

I'm still confused about the order of things. 

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2 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I'm still confused about the order of things. 

I don't understand what is confusing. Send the CO a photograph of the cache and log before logging and ask is it okay to log. Then accept the CO's decision. I have never refused to accept the log of someone who does this, but some CO might refuse, and it is their right, as the rules are, sign the log. The few times I have not had a pen and messaged a CO, none have refused my log. In one incident, the CO never got back to me, so after waiting a few weeks I logged. Still never heard from that CO.

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36 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I don't understand what is confusing. Send the CO a photograph of the cache and log before logging and ask is it okay to log. Then accept the CO's decision. I have never refused to accept the log of someone who does this, but some CO might refuse, and it is their right, as the rules are, sign the log. The few times I have not had a pen and messaged a CO, none have refused my log. In one incident, the CO never got back to me, so after waiting a few weeks I logged. Still never heard from that CO.

I understand your log perfectly. My confusion is over the log I posted and your post. For the cache owner who posted the instructions on the cache page, I'm trying to figure out what would come first. If a photo is not sent to the cache owner, how long till the average cache owner actually does a maintenance check and checks the physical log and even notices that the signature is not there? If the log is still there? And then realizes that the person who did not sign the log also did not send a photo. It just seems to me to be an unnecessarily confusing instruction on the cache page. 

I am supporting YOUR post! I think you gave good suggestions for handling logging if you don't have a pen. 

Edited by Max and 99
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4 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I haven't had a log refusal, but if I did because I didn't have a pen, I would disappointingly have to accept their decision. NOT argue. Because proof of find is my signature. If I could I would then return and sign the log.

 

Yeah this is the sticking point for a lot of people who feel they should be allowed to log it found because they have visual evidence of the find. it can get ugly if a CO still says no, in cases say when clearly there's no other task, they had the cache open and you're looking at the proper prior signed sheet - in those cases I think the CO is really pushing the limit of reason, even though it's their right. But if that happened to me, same thing applies - it's tough and annoying, but don't berate the cache owner, it's still the rule for the find.

 

But absolutely in cases where there may be an additional task, or perhaps you think you have the right log but either there was a throwdown (like for a difficult camouflaged log location, eg inside the non-working pen in the container), or an intentional red herring sheet. In those cases absolutely the CO can remove the log stating they didn't properly sign it.

 

So I'd say the irk of "not signing" a log sheet could go both ways, depending on the context. That's another reason it's good to know the rules, which can help you move past an annoyance in the hobby and continue caching happily knowing someone is actually following the rules and it's not just a disagreement you strongly want to take to appeals.

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I know it's right in front of me somewhere but I cannot find my recent post about a Found log I received from someone who said they didn't have a pen and I'd have to accept their photo as proof.  It was the statement that I had to accept it that irked me. 

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On 9/5/2020 at 8:54 PM, Goldenwattle said:

The rules are, sign the log. Easy to understand and accept. If a CO accepts photographic evidence, fine, but you must not expect it as a given and accept the CO's decision. Contact the CO with the photographic proof before logging a find. It's presumptuous to do otherwise.

 

 

Rules can be bend for honest mistakes. Loosen up. No one has yet to deny my log for not bringing a pen. And I do expect it, will expect it.  I don't know where you live but we are more relaxed here. We help each other out. Sorry your area is more of a dictatorship when it comes to geocaching. 

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Just now, Max and 99 said:

It's the basis of the hobby to sign the log. Upholding this does not mean the CO is a dictator. 

 

It's the tone. She has used it before and I have brought up the dictatorship of her ways of owning a geocache. Geocaching for "power" and control is not in the guidelines. Like I said...relax. 

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46 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

 

Rules can be bend for honest mistakes. Loosen up. No one has yet to deny my log for not bringing a pen. And I do expect it, will expect it.  I don't know where you live but we are more relaxed here. We help each other out. Sorry your area is more of a dictatorship when it comes to geocaching. 

 

We're fairly laid-back here and, if someone who said they forgot their pen can convince me that they were at GZ and had the cache in hand, I'll let the log stand, but increasingly I'm getting "finds" logged on multis where they've only got as far as the first stage or "finds" logged on my Earthcache where they haven't provided any answers, and if I were to let those stand it would ruin the integrity of the game. Why do the T4 climb to GZ when you only have to do the T2 walk to the first waypoint? I give those loggers plenty of opportunity to respond, sending them both messages and emails, but rarely do I get any response at all and if I do it's often pretty gruff.

 

Forgot your pen? In an urban area, there should always be somewhere reasonably close by where you can buy a pen (unless you're caching in the wee small hours when all the shops are closed) and in bushland there are plenty of things like charcoal, twigs, gumnuts and stones that can leave an identifiable mark in the logbook. I have to wonder if "I didn't have a pen" is really an excuse or if it's just laziness.

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1 minute ago, barefootjeff said:

and if I were to let those stand it would ruin the integrity of the game.

Agree. I deleted a newbies find on one of our EarthCaches recently. I did reach out to them with a message explaining what they should do - no reply in a week, deleted log. 

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1 hour ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

 

Rules can be bend for honest mistakes. Loosen up. No one has yet to deny my log for not bringing a pen. And I do expect it, will expect it.  I don't know where you live but we are more relaxed here. We help each other out. Sorry your area is more of a dictatorship when it comes to geocaching. 

Good grief; you are the one who needs to loosen up. And why do you forget a pen? Explanation; you are too lazy to really care enough. In over 10,000 caches I think I have only forgotten a pen on 3 or 4 occasions. I carry a spare pen as well. As do my caching companions. There are pens in the car too and a spare pen in my bicycle pannier, to back up the pens I carry. Not that that is always a full guarantee, as earlier this year while caching in Cairns, BOTH pens ran out of ink, and I had to go find a pen to buy, before I continued caching. But a back up pen lowers the odds of that happening.

Even when I was still a beginner like you with only 224 caches, I still knew to carry a pen.

I like to contact the CO first to give them a chance of reply out of respect; that's my choice, not a general thing. I have never been refused permission to log, as I have never refused someone permission to log who has contacted me. If the CO can't be bothered to reply to my request, after a reasonable amount of time, I log the cache and put the photographic evidence in the log. I check logs and I give people a chance of reply before deleting their logs. If they can describe the cache and hide, or supply photographic evidence their log stays. I only delete logs when they don't reply.

The rules are, sign the log.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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2 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

It's the tone. She has used it before and I have brought up the dictatorship of her ways of owning a geocache. Geocaching for "power" and control is not in the guidelines. Like I said...relax. 

Hello, waving, "she" is here. Really, please show me where I was dictatorial. "Power", "control"; sound like you are not getting everyone to agree with you, and you don't like that.

 

PS. Signing the log is in the guidelines. It's a simple rule, and very easy to abide with.

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

I have to wonder if "I didn't have a pen" is really an excuse or if it's just laziness.

I agree; I often suspect that's it. It's too much work to open that cache :laughing:. Move on, find more to look at.

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Found itFound it

04/Sep/2020

Quick find. Placed back as found.

Found itFound it

04/Sep/2020

Somehow managed a DNF last time, today was an easy find.

Needs ArchivedNeeds Archived

06/Sep/2020

It’s been stolen

 

 

On a friend's cache. We checked and the cache was still there, in full view. When we looked again at the online log, it was changed to DNF. Either someone explained it to the person and they changed it, or, our guess, more likely the reviewer changed it.

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3 hours ago, lee737 said:

Agree. I deleted a newbies find on one of our EarthCaches recently. I did reach out to them with a message explaining what they should do - no reply in a week, deleted log. 

 

Yep, I've had quite a few of those. They tend to show up more often on ECs in more touristy areas, I'd say.

 

 

And forgot a pen? Once in a blue moon perhaps, but c'mon, geocaching is about signing the log; there's really no excuse to go out without a pen, or not have extras around just in case. It should go hand in hand. Yes, I have forgotten on occasion; and I've allowed some people to log finds on mine after convincing me they did find it but didn't have a writing utensil.

It can happen - impromptu cache, hop out of the vehicle, d'oh forgot the pen, take a pic, continue on with no time wasted - but in a case like that I don't expect the cache owner to allow the find; I'd be a bit surprised or bothered if they didn't, but I wouldn't expect it - I was the one that didn't complete the expected task, not them.

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11 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

It can happen - impromptu cache, hop out of the vehicle, d'oh forgot the pen, take a pic, continue on with no time wasted - but in a case like that I don't expect the cache owner to allow the find; I'd be a bit surprised or bothered if they didn't, but I wouldn't expect it - I was the one that didn't complete the expected task, not them.

 

I can think of four occasions when I've gone to sign the log and realised I didn't have a pen or pencil:

  1. This was close to home so I just went home, grabbed a pen and returned to sign the log
  2. I'd had an appointment in Sydney so I just took a small lightweight backpack instead of my usual caching one. Afterwards I took the ferry across the harbour to do some caching. I'd remembered to put the GPSr in it but not a pen, which I discovered when I'd extracted the cache from its hiding place and went to sign the log. So I put it all back, walked a couple of kilometres to the nearest shopping centre where I bought a pen then walked back to retrieve the cache again and sign the log.
  3. This one was in the Watagan Mountains. I parked about a kilometre from GZ, grabbed my pack from the back of the car and headed off, only to discover when I went to sign the log that there were no pens in it even though I was sure I'd put one in. I signed the log with a twig, took a photo of that in case it faded, got back to the car and drove down to the coast for a swim, only to discover when I lifted my towel that the rogue pen was under it.
  4. This was one where I needed my telescopic ladder so I took my large camping backpack to strap it onto instead of my regular day pack. Same story, I got to GZ only to find there was no pen in the pack, so I signed the log with the end of a gumnut and took a photo of it for backup.
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16 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I've been wracking my brain and I honestly cannot remember ever not having a writing utensil when I needed to sign a cache log. But if it ever does happen I've got some great examples from other forum posters of what to use! 

I forgot a pen once when I grabbed my GPS, purse, phone and keys, and cycled off to find a cache. Normally my bag has pens, but I don't carry that on the bike. I felt really silly to have forgotten  a pen, but I emailed the CO with a photo and they gave permission to log. After that, I added a couple of pens to my bicycle pannier for future times.

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26 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I've been wracking my brain and I honestly cannot remember ever not having a writing utensil when I needed to sign a cache log.

But if it ever does happen I've got some great examples from other forum posters of what to use! 

:D

Even the other 2/3rds is carrying a fisher refill in her wallet now , and every bag she owns has at least one pen and a sharpie in them.

 - And she's  not even caching right now.  :laughing:

All of mine have a G2, a mechanical pencil, a fisher pen, and a sharpie. 

Have kept a fisher refill in my wallet for years.

Just using cargo pockets, a sharpie and a fisher pen pretty-much write on everything.  :)

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Today's irk when trying to create a new cache:

 

image.png.3a878339d3446d45a95dad888d3013aa.png

 

Not much I can do about that other than archive it, as no events are being published here until gatherings of 100 or more people are allowed and that's unlikely to happen anytime soon. So I guess I'll have to keep being a maintenance-shirker.

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Playing an Adventure Lab "cache" in an area with really bad mobile data reception (at least for my phone + my provider). To call it a "nuisance" would be a euphemism. I only didn't quit because I wanted to do the full hike anyway (great scenery).

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1 hour ago, on4bam said:

People contacting me through the MC eventhough my profile say not to use it asking stuff that should be asked on these forums.

I'm not a private free helpdesk. :ph34r:

 


Assuming they aren't a cacher using the app where you message without viewing a profile and are on a web browser on their computer, when I view your profile page, all the wasted space pushes the content and your message below the fold. Here's what I see as content in my browser on that page and I'm sure others do as well. 



 

Screen Shot 2020-09-13 at 7.17.29 PM.png

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10 hours ago, on4bam said:

So do I.

Besides, why would someone half around the world ask me instead of someone more local, like within a few 1000 Km :rolleyes:

 

 

Maybe because this a global game and tracking where some name seen on a forum lives isn't always straight forward, so why try.

 

ETA:  Your location is "Earth" so any part of the 'place' is valid. :D

Edited by The Jester
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2 minutes ago, The Jester said:

Maybe because this a global game and tracking where some name seen on a forum lives isn't always straight forward, so why try.

 

ETA:  Your location is "Earth" so any part of the 'place' is valid. :D

They probably contacted me because they saw one or more of my forumposts. They should realize forums are made to ask questions. Had they posted their question here I might even have answered (but not the last few days as we were away from home, not Earth ;)) . They might have seen posts mentioning I'm in Europe or noticed I'm not a native English speaker/writer.

Anyway, they will realize there are better places and ways to get help.

 

 

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On 9/11/2020 at 10:55 PM, Max and 99 said:

I've been wracking my brain and I honestly cannot remember ever not having a writing utensil when I needed to sign a cache log. But if it ever does happen I've got some great examples from other forum posters of what to use! 

 

My job for the last 40+ years requires a pen all day long so, as a habit, I almost always have a pen in my pocket. With just over 700 finds there have been 2 occasions where I somehow found myself without a pen.

On those 2 occasions I simply did not log the cache because it was my fault for not having something to sign with.  

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On 9/11/2020 at 9:03 PM, Goldenwattle said:

Hello, waving, "she" is here. Really, please show me where I was dictatorial. "Power", "control"; sound like you are not getting everyone to agree with you, and you don't like that.

 

 

Sure. I'll point it our next time you do it. Hopefully by pointing it out...you'll step back and think about it, what you put out. By the way, I still do not read every physical log and compare it to the online logs. Something you said a responsible geocacher should do although it's not in the guidelines. So sorry. 

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41 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

 

Sure. I'll point it our next time you do it. Hopefully by pointing it out...you'll step back and think about it, what you put out. By the way, I still do not read every physical log and compare it to the online logs. Something you said a responsible geocacher should do although it's not in the guidelines. So sorry. 

 

This is what the Help Centre says are a cache owner's responsibilities:

 

Quote

Here is a list of your responsibilities as a cache owner:

  • Choose an appropriate container that is watertight.
  • Replace broken or missing containers.
  • Clean out your cache if contents become wet.
  • Replace full or wet logbooks.
  • Mark trackables as missing if they are listed in the inventory but no longer are in the cache.
  • Delete inappropriate logs.
  • Update coordinates if cache location has changed.
  • Temporarily disable your cache page when the cache is not available or you need time to fix reported problems. A cache page can stay disabled for a reasonable amount of time - generally up to four weeks.
  • After you maintain your cache, make sure to remove the "Needs Maintenance" icon.
  • If you no longer want to maintain your cache, retrieve the container and archive your cache page.

 

If you follow the link to what is considered an "inappropriate log", it includes logs that "fail to meet the logging guidelines for their cache type". The logging guidelines for all physical cache types include that the logbook is signed.

 

Quote

You can log caches online as "Found" after you visited the coordinates and signed the logbook.

 

So which bit about COs verifying the validity of logs isn't in the guidelines?

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33 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

This is what the Help Centre says are a cache owner's responsibilities:

 

 

If you follow the link to what is considered an "inappropriate log", it includes logs that "fail to meet the logging guidelines for their cache type". The logging guidelines for all physical cache types include that the logbook is signed.

 

 

So which bit about COs verifying the validity of logs isn't in the guidelines?

 

Nope. A different subject. Nice try. 

Edited by HunterandSamuel
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3 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

A communication style like that irks me :angry:!

barefootjeff wrote an elaborate (and IMHO very valid) reply to a statement you posted, and all you come up with is this?! The least you should do is to clarify the "different subject" - I understood it just as BFJ did.

Most of us understand it like that. barefootjeff wrote it well.

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