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What Irks you most?

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19 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Yeah as a CO that's the way I like to give tips too. If someone straight up asks for the final, I won't just give it, I'll try to nudge them productively in the right direction (just as I like to learn and understand than just get the answer; 'do unto others' and all that ;)). But if they really want it, they'll usually go and ask a previous finder for the solution straight out. If as a finder I just get the solution, I'll still try to understand or solve the puzzle with that new knowledge. That's how you learn. I don't think asking for a tip on a puzzle (from the owner or a finder) is any kind of wrong at all.

But bah! If I ask for a tip, I don't just want the answer, lol. It just irks me, cuz you know, that's what this thread is about.

 

As a puzzle cache owner I'd rather give someone (if they asked) the outright solution, than have them get it from someone else that has solved it.   It might not make a difference but if it encourages them to seek hints from the cache owner first for other puzzle caches, I'd like to foster that.

 

As I see it, when a CO creates a puzzle they're specifically choosing that cache type so that finders can engage in an additional mental exercise in order to find the cache.  They're also constructing the puzzle with an intended level of difficulty and hopefully rate it accordingly.   If they've created a 4-5D puzzle, it would seem quite reasonable that hints would be more vague or that they offer not hints at all.  When someone asks a previous finder for "help" or posts the puzzle on a FB puzzle group they're effectively circumventing the intent of the CO and the purpose of difficulty ratings.  

 

 

Edited by NYPaddleCacher
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On 7/6/2018 at 12:21 PM, niraD said:
On 7/6/2018 at 11:00 AM, baer2006 said:
On 7/6/2018 at 10:14 AM, thebruce0 said:

When you ask a previous finder for a tip on how to solve a puzzle -- and they straight up give you final coordinates.

 

No, dude! A tip! I want to solve the puzzle!

Yes, happens quite often. That's why I usually try to contact the owner first. Only if that doesn't work out (owner doesn't respond, or is not helpful), I'll ask previous finders.

The owner may give you unwanted spoilers too. I've had that happen, both with finding the hide ("I saw your DNF, here's where to look:...") and with solving puzzles ("You're on the right track. Now all you need to do is...").

 

I encourage folks to reach out to us on our puzzles, rather than go to the Facebook spoiler group.  I start by asking what they've figured out so far and how much of a hint they want. 

 

Sometimes, though, a nudge doesn't help those who wanted a nudge, and it turns into a gentle push (OK, have you tried...), then a friendly jolt (You really want to be looking at...), and then a loving roundhouse kick to the head (WHY AREN'T YOU GETTING THIS).

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On 7/7/2018 at 7:48 AM, NYPaddleCacher said:

As a puzzle cache owner I'd rather give someone (if they asked) the outright solution, than have them get it from someone else that has solved it.   It might not make a difference but if it encourages them to seek hints from the cache owner first for other puzzle caches, I'd like to foster that.

 

Yes, likewise, I'd rather have that happen. I just meant that if someone wants the solution, they'll typically go to a previous cacher, not the owner.

 

 

10 hours ago, hzoi said:

I encourage folks to reach out to us on our puzzles, rather than go to the Facebook spoiler group.  I start by asking what they've figured out so far and how much of a hint they want. 

 

Sometimes, though, a nudge doesn't help those who wanted a nudge, and it turns into a gentle push (OK, have you tried...), then a friendly jolt (You really want to be looking at...), and then a loving roundhouse kick to the head (WHY AREN'T YOU GETTING THIS).

 

All of this. =P

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On the topic of puzzle caches. When a CO doesn't respond to your request for a hint or confirmation that you're going in the right direction on a puzzle. Especially when you can see they've been active on the site in the weeks since you sent the message. If you're going to be a CO you should expect questions especially for puzzle caches. I guess as people have said here an option is to ask a cacher who has found the cache.

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2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

The expectation that puzzle cache owners are somehow obliged to babysit anyone who asks.

 

The strange reluctance to actually work at solving a puzzle.

 

The amount of ire that puzzle cache owners are subjected to.

 

Time wasted on clever / interesting / novel / intricate puzzles only to have them effectively converted to trads.

 

I don’t see it as an obligation.  I’m more often flattered that people are stretching themselves to attempt my puzzles.  And I prefer that they are contacting me rather than previous finders - I think it reduces the chances of my mysteries being converted to trads.

 

Particularly when a puzzle is new, I’m really interested to see whether I have the difficulty rated correctly, and these conversations seem to be the best way to find out.  Constantly amazed at the different ideas people come up with on a puzzle that I thought was just so obvious! ;-)

 

I’ll try to respond in a day or two, and so far, fortunately, I’ve never had anyone feeling in any way entitled to a better level of service.  I’ll give nudges not solutions, but I’d rather give a really big nudge than have the cacher give up.  I appreciate that other COs approach this differently.

 

Prior to the FTF, I won’t give any clues to individuals, but I will make changes to a puzzle (e.g. add hints), if necessary, based on feedback received.  Either at this stage or later, if I don’t want to give out hints, I’d still respond politely to messages - good manners, surely?

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2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

The amount of ire that puzzle cache owners are subjected to.

 

Hope I’m not tempting fate, but with 50 puzzles set in the last 8 years, I haven’t been subjected to any ire ... at least, not to my face. :-)

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44 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:
3 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

The amount of ire that puzzle cache owners are subjected to.

 

Hope I’m not tempting fate, but with 50 puzzles set in the last 8 years, I haven’t been subjected to any ire ... at least, not to my face. :-)

 

The degree to which one is prepared to live up to expectations of hand-holding might be a factor there ;)

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2 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

 

Hope I’m not tempting fate, but with 50 puzzles set in the last 8 years, I haven’t been subjected to any ire ... at least, not to my face. :-)

 

There are several factors regarding that sort of thing, I think:

1. Location/surroundings.  If the area is either sparsely populated by caches, the ratio of traditional to mystery being more even can be annoying to some.  If the area is a target for power trails or series, then having mystery caches interspersed will trouble those looking to clear out large swaths.

2. Puzzle difficulty/quality.  Low to moderate difficulty puzzles get less blowback than the really tough ones.  

3. CO attitude.  Unfortunately, how the CO is perceived can be a real factor.  There are a few in my area that have less-than-stellar reputations - deserved or not - because of their own actions or reactions towards others.  

 

I'm sure some of my own puzzles annoy some folks, but I don't think people "dislike" me so much as just wish they knew how to solve them.  I've always gotten along with folks at events...

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6 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

The expectation that puzzle cache owners are somehow obliged to babysit anyone who asks.

 

The strange reluctance to actually work at solving a puzzle.

 

The amount of ire that puzzle cache owners are subjected to.

 

Time wasted on clever / interesting / novel / intricate puzzles only to have them effectively converted to trads.

I'm not sure if this was partially directed at my comment. I could understand it could be frustrating if people are coming to you repeatedly on the same puzzle just to get a smiley rather than take the effort to solve it mostly on their own.


However, in no way did I imply or mean to imply that CO's should "babysit" people trying to solve their puzzle. I also wasn't directing any ire towards puzzle CO's in general only those who are active members of the site and haven't responded in over a month since my question. I think 4+ weeks is an unreasonable time to not respond. I personally don't agree with someone going quickly to the CO without trying the puzzle or quickly for more hints and do spend a significant time trying to solve a puzzle before I even think of contacting the CO. 

I really enjoy puzzles and would rather solve them on my own. But, in 2 cases I've had the puzzles have been so vague that I've requested to know if I'm going in the right direction with how I've solved the puzzle. One case it was a puzzle created by a child with the question relating to different cartoons, videogames.etc many other people noted that the questions and the puzzle was very vague and could use clarification. The other is a simple Sudoku puzzle however, there is no way to tell what Sudoku is supposed to be solved because the CO has put several on the page as examples.

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4 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

 

I don’t see it as an obligation.  I’m more often flattered that people are stretching themselves to attempt my puzzles.  And I prefer that they are contacting me rather than previous finders - I think it reduces the chances of my mysteries being converted to trads.

 

Particularly when a puzzle is new, I’m really interested to see whether I have the difficulty rated correctly, and these conversations seem to be the best way to find out.  Constantly amazed at the different ideas people come up with on a puzzle that I thought was just so obvious! ;-)

 

I’ll try to respond in a day or two, and so far, fortunately, I’ve never had anyone feeling in any way entitled to a better level of service.  I’ll give nudges not solutions, but I’d rather give a really big nudge than have the cacher give up.  I appreciate that other COs approach this differently.

 

Prior to the FTF, I won’t give any clues to individuals, but I will make changes to a puzzle (e.g. add hints), if necessary, based on feedback received.  Either at this stage or later, if I don’t want to give out hints, I’d still respond politely to messages - good manners, surely?

Thanks IceColdUK. I think you have a really good attitude and outlook as a puzzle CO. I really appreciate your positivity. There is one CO that put's out really tough puzzles in my area. I've only approached them on one puzzle. But, I was shocked that they got back to me in a day or two. I definitely don't expect immediate responses and was expecting to wait a week or so. But, I think they really enjoy putting out Puzzle Caches and that it's fun for them as you said to see all the ways different people think to try and solve.  

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@ topic

Found logs like: The Cache is gone but I've found the spot.

Or: Couldn't serch due to muggles but took a photo from whatever

 

Stuff like this

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1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

 

But you do seem to think that a CO who doesn't respond to your request for assistance is unreasonable.

 

A CO is under no obligation to answer your question. I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for them to exercise their right not to.

I agree a CO absolutely has the right not to assist. But, I don't see how that can be seen as reasonable to create a cache particularly one that might require some questions, nudging or hints and not see it as part of the game to interact with those putting in an effort.

 But, it's a game it's supposed to be fun, friendly and social. Maybe, you're a CO that has had bad experience and it's tainted your interactions with other Geocachers. That's unfortunate if that has happened. But, I personally try to keep my interactions with other Geocachers and my request for nudges as polite and pleasant as possible since they have their own lives too.

 

I would be happy even if they responded as IceColdUK suggested with a I won't be giving a hint or providing help for this puzzle. As they suggested good manners to at least provide a response of any kind. I would know in the future if I have gotten to the point I feel I need to contact a CO on their puzzles I would know not to contact that particular CO.

Edited by JSCYYJ

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42 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

It irks me that anyone would choose to class not assisting with the puzzle as unreasonable. The false claim that a cache requires questions, nudging or hints irks me. If that were true it would be true for every finder of that cache and that is rarely if ever the case.

 

I'm reluctant to leverage an age-old staple argument of these forums but I will purely because it is so obvious - if a CO places a cache that requires climbing gear would they be considered unreasonable if they didn't assist finders by providing said climbing gear and, if demanded, attending site to help said finders use it? Of course not.

 

It irks me that a CO who chooses not to help with a puzzle might be classed as not fun, friendly and or sociable. As for polite and pleasant I see no reason why a CO can't politely and pleasantly choose not to help with a puzzle - since CO's have their own lives too and nor are they forcing anyone to compromise other areas of their own lives in order solve the puzzle and find the cache - if, as a finder, people have better things to do with their time then rock on - put the puzzle to one side and do those better things instead.

 

A puzzle is an obstacle to finding a cache.

 

Climbing which requires specialist equipment is an obstacle to finding a cache.

 

The idea that a puzzle owner who doesn't capitulate to demands for help should be thought of as unreasonable, unfriendly, anti-social, impolite and disrespectful of the fact that hey - people have lives too irks me - when the owner of the climbing cache - quite rightly - isn't subjected to this unreasonable, unfriendly, anti-social, impolite and disrespectful treatment.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate your experience, discussion and your opinion. I'm going to opt out of continuing on this particular topic. I feel like our interactions have not been necessarily helpful and have leaned towards the negative. I don't think that was what this particular discussion was meant for. I feel like you've been taking anything I've said and are responding as if my comments have been extreme blanket statements attacking you or others. I even agreed with a previous suggestion that help is not necessarily required and a simple I will not help with this puzzle response would be appreciated. I don't think anything constructive will come out of a continued back and forth. Everyone can Geocache as they feel and hopefully it's fun for all involved.

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2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

I'm reluctant to leverage an age-old staple argument of these forums but I will purely because it is so obvious - if a CO places a cache that requires climbing gear would they be considered unreasonable if they didn't assist finders by providing said climbing gear and, if demanded, attending site to help said finders use it? Of course not.

Except the comparable example would be the CO with the climbing cache refusing to answer questions about how to safely approach the climb or where to get permits. Having said that, there's no requirement the owner of a climbing cache provide that information, either, but it's easy to see how it might be viewed as similarly unfriendly.

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3 minutes ago, dprovan said:

Except the comparable example would be the CO with the climbing cache refusing to answer questions about how to safely approach the climb or where to get permits. Having said that, there's no requirement the owner of a climbing cache provide that information, either, but it's easy to see how it might be viewed as similarly unfriendly.

 

Or perhaps the CO might just feel that since they had to "figure it out" on their own, that it's reasonable to expect others to do so...?  

 

~points finger to a distance mountain peak~ 

 

"There's where you need to be...now go."

 

~walks away~

Edited by J Grouchy

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I feel ya JSCYYJ...

 

 

4 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:
7 minutes ago, dprovan said:

Except the comparable example would be the CO with the climbing cache refusing to answer questions about how to safely approach the climb or where to get permits. Having said that, there's no requirement the owner of a climbing cache provide that information, either, but it's easy to see how it might be viewed as similarly unfriendly.

 

Or perhaps the CO might just feel that since they had to "figure it out" on their own, that it's reasonable to expect others to do so...?  

 

~points finger to a distance mountain peak~ 

 

"There's where you need to be...now go."

 

~walks away~

 

Personally, I think it's an issue of how the CO responds to a request, not the detail of the response necessarily.

 

The implication by some comments above was the CO completely ignoring any request and not responding. That is not friendly, and I'd agree would seem unreasonable. But even someone expecting a CO help or give a solution being faced with a friendly decline could still see the CO as being reasonable.

 

There's no reason for a CO to blatantly ignore a request (barring extreme/rare circumstances of perhaps some form of abuse or antagonism). But given they do respond, I don't think that a CO not being willing to help is therefore being unreasonable, at least depending on how they respond to the request.

Edited by thebruce0
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4 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

But you do seem to think that a CO who doesn't respond to your request for assistance is unreasonable.

Then again, the CO may never have seen the request for assistance. It may have landed in his/her spam folder. Or if the CO is like me, if you try to make contact using the Message Center, and the Message Center's email notifications are broken, then the CO will never see your message.

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22 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Sigh.

So now the CO, having gone to the trouble to create the cache in the first place, has to politely excuse themselves for not giving extra help to find it lest they be branded unreasonable.

I want X but you're not willing to give it so you're bad.

 

Odd, I was gonna post a similar "irk", and see a bunch along the same lines today.    :)

 - I agree, and we're seeing it cacher-to-cacher as well.  Entitled who think if you won't "help" you're the problem.

 

There's a few from a couple states that'll mail, asking for the location to another person's hides, not even wanting a hint.

 - Other times these same people will PAF, as if one's supposed to stop what they're doing and wait on them immediately.  "We're here, tell me where it is".  

 - No, but I'll tell someone where to go if I find who gave you my number...

I pitch everything when done, have no idea other than logs on many, and the couple locals who attempted similar now know that.  ;)

Some folks cave in, I won't (they're not mine...), and events where these people are present are interesting sometimes. 

 

Edited by cerberus1
addification ;)

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2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I

The implication by some comments above was the CO completely ignoring any request and not responding. That is not friendly, and I'd agree would seem unreasonable. But even someone expecting a CO help or give a solution being faced with a friendly decline could still see the CO as being reasonable.

 

There's no reason for a CO to blatantly ignore a request (barring extreme/rare circumstances of perhaps some form of abuse or antagonism). But given they do respond, I don't think that a CO not being willing to help is therefore being unreasonable, at least depending on how they respond to the request.

 

Meh...I don't feel like responding to every request for a hint on my puzzles.  I don't feel like it's reasonable to expect me to always respond.  I don't get offended when others don't respond to my own messages. 

 

All this talk about what is "reasonable" is...ummm...unreasonable?

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On 7/8/2018 at 3:16 AM, hzoi said:

 

I encourage folks to reach out to us on our puzzles, rather than go to the Facebook spoiler group.  I start by asking what they've figured out so far and how much of a hint they want. 

 

 

Sorry not on Facebook. But seriously why do you care about how a puzzle is solved. If by Facebook, team of 10-20 at a puzzle solving event, asking for help from the CO. Any assistance obviously degrades the original difficultly. If I have to use a web page to decrypt a cypher is that cheating? I'm not figuring it out by hand thats for sure. I wish puzzle COs would simply take joy in creating the puzzles and reading the comments from the folks that had fun solving them. They should be thought of in the same manner as a traditional cache.  Most COs even for traditional will not give hints till it's been solved/found. BTW my all time favorite puzzle is: https://coord.info/GC7NFZK go check it out tough one was up till 2 in the morning. 

 

Most COs will not give hints until it has been solved/found even for traditional hides. 

 

I'm not asking for the answer here but if anyone knows how to search video content would love to be able to solve this unsolved cache https://coord.info/GC7HHYW I know I've seen this before just can't place it. Seriously folks just kidding to irk folks,  maybe better websites and tools to aid people in solving tough puzzles. We have some great series in our area that teach puzzle basics but most of the puzzles don't use them and are pretty obtuse and unless you get the technique or thought process no way people can figure it out they also don't cover the easy stuff. If you are a prolific hider maybe a few teaching series or website would help improve the image of the unsolvable puzzles. New cachers are probably not going to contact you.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

 

Meh...I don't feel like responding to every request for a hint on my puzzles.  I don't feel like it's reasonable to expect me to always respond.  I don't get offended when others don't respond to my own messages. 

 

All this talk about what is "reasonable" is...ummm...unreasonable?

 

How is this enjoyable to the wider community. Just saying like traditional hides puzzles should be solvable in some fashion.  Otherwise whats the point?

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3 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

So now the CO, having gone to the trouble to create the cache in the first place, has to politely excuse themselves for not giving extra help to find it lest they be branded unreasonable.

 

No. How did you get that from my comment?

Hopefully the CO is a friendly person and doesn't risk insulting people by ignoring a likely friendly request, whether yes or no. Common courtesy. That's all.

 

 

3 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

I want X but you're not willing to give it so you're bad.

 

That's not at all what I said in the slightest.

 

 

3 hours ago, niraD said:

Then again, the CO may never have seen the request for assistance. It may have landed in his/her spam folder. Or if the CO is like me, if you try to make contact using the Message Center, and the Message Center's email notifications are broken, then the CO will never see your message.

 

Right, so I try to err on the side of courtesy and cordiality. If I'm asking for help, *I* don't assume the CO is being a jerk if don't get a response. But I can only speak for myself. So as a CO if I'm asked a question, I'll do my best to respond. Because that's a nice thing to do.  This is the same sort of etiquette everyone has to decide upon for dealing with emails, voice mails, txt messages... this isn't even touching on whether the response is desireable to the asker or not, just whether ignoring someone is nice or not.

 

 

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

Anyone truly believing the mantra Everyone can geocache as they feel should definitely be applying it equally to everyone - and not just to those cachers who align with their own requirements, while denying those that don't align with those personal requirements the same rights.

 

I dislike that mantra as well. But I think that most people who use it don't think through what it implies, and it's a small minority who use it to justify actions that harm or upset others.  I think most people are decent and actually use the term to try to find a common ground so that more people can actually enjoy geocaching.  That's still not justification enough for me to use that phrase, but I just think it's a risky mantra that can be easily misused.

 

45 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

Meh...I don't feel like responding to every request for a hint on my puzzles.  I don't feel like it's reasonable to expect me to always respond.  I don't get offended when others don't respond to my own messages.

 

I don't get offended merely if I don't get a response either - I learned long ago it's not worth it. But *I*  know that other people do and can get offended if *I* don't respond. So instead of thinking of myself first, if it just takes a quick reply, then yeah, I'm going to err on the side of being courteous, for their sake.

Edited by thebruce0
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21 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

It irks me when people class puzzles as unsolvable just because they personally can't solve them.

 

It irks me even more when those people protest loudly about these so- called unsolvable puzzles even after other people have solved them - without help of any kind.

 

Agreed on both points

 

21 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

It irks me when people claim that puzzle cache owners need to invest inordinate additional effort to 'improve the image' of puzzles through what amounts to more hand-holding.

 

Agreed, as long as people can remain friendly in the process.  It's bitter people who basically give others a finger just because they asked nicely.   I'm not saying that's what you do. I'm saying there is a middle ground - you don't have to "hand hold", and you don't have to come across like a jerk about it if people reach out for help. That's all I'm saying.

And yes I know that there will be people who think you're being a jerk about it if you don't give them the answer you're looking for. But at that point I assume you've done what you can not to actually be a jerk in the first place.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

some people enjoy more difficult puzzles. The idea that they should be deprived that enjoyment because of a need to dumb down every puzzle to suit those with less enthusiasm irks me.

 

Agreed. But I'd rather like to help someone through a puzzle I own - even if they just ask for an answer - than just ignore their request.

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Use of throwdowns (usually by high numbers cachers but the disease seems to be spreading) is a common irk mentioned here before. But. When they  log their find they go on to THANK THE CO FOR PLACING AND MAINTAINING THE CACHE!!

Edited by colleda
typo
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The CO is under no obligation at all to answer a request for help solving their puzzle in my opinion. If the CO wants, they can answer.

 

It seems that some people feel that the CO has to respond to a request, which is not true at all.

 

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4 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

It irks me when people class puzzles as unsolvable just because they personally can't solve them.

I've never seen anyone complain because they can't solve a puzzle even though others can. On the other hand, I have seen puzzle caches that seemed impossible to solve, and I couldn't help but notice that every log is either quiet about solving or admits that the CO gave them the answer or told them how to solve it. My suspicion is that those puzzles are unsolvable, but I don't gripe about it.

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11 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I don't get offended merely if I don't get a response either - I learned long ago it's not worth it. But *I*  know that other people do and can get offended if *I* don't respond. So instead of thinking of myself first, if it just takes a quick reply, then yeah, I'm going to err on the side of being courteous, for their sake.

 

 

The cache, the cache page and the puzzle are all there for THEIR sake.  My helping them is not part of the deal.  If I see they actually thought about it and put some effort into solving it, I'm more likely to throw them the proverbial bone.  But no...almost always it's "I can't make heads or tails of your puzzle...would you mind giving me a nudge?"

My take on those is that these folks more than likely aren't really interested in puzzles at all.

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1 hour ago, J Grouchy said:

The cache, the cache page and the puzzle are all there for THEIR sake.  My helping them is not part of the deal.

 

What deal?  Do you make deals to help little old ladies across the road?  As far as I'm concerned choosing to help someone has nothing to do with deals.

 

1 hour ago, J Grouchy said:

If I see they actually thought about it and put some effort into solving it, I'm more likely to throw them the proverbial bone.  But no...almost always it's "I can't make heads or tails of your puzzle...would you mind giving me a nudge?"

 

I see the opposite.  Most contacting me, will give a few ideas on what they think they're up against.  And if they don't, I'll ask them.

 

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

My take on those is that these folks more than likely aren't really interested in puzzles at all.

^ Misattributed quote, sorry.  This was also from J Grouchy's post.

 

Disagree on this too.  We've all got to start somewhere.  Slap people down and they'll certainly lose any interest in puzzles.  Encourage them, and you may have a new recruit to this game within a game.

Edited by IceColdUK
Misattributed quote.
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43 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

If declining a request to hand-hold someone to a puzzle solution is enough to put them off trying to solve under their own steam then I would say their level of interest was low to begin with.

 

You might be right, but I’d give them the benefit of the doubt.  If a pattern emerges, that’s a different story; but as I said, we all have to start somewhere.

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1 hour ago, IceColdUK said:

 

What deal?  Do you make deals to help little old ladies across the road?  As far as I'm concerned choosing to help someone has nothing to do with deals.

 

 

The literal deal I make with Groundspeak when I place and publish a geocache.  https://www.geocaching.com/play/guidelines

I follow the guidelines.  What I do beyond that is my own prerogative and comes from my own interactions with others...or at the very least, the actions they take in trying to contact me.  Believe it or not, I don't look down on everyone that asks for help or hints.  Quite often I will give feedback if they at least appear to have given my puzzles some thought.  What I resent is being expected to reply to every request for help or hints just because someone opened my cache page and realized it didn't tell them exactly where the cache was located at first glance.

 

1 hour ago, IceColdUK said:

 

I see the opposite.  Most contacting me, will give a few ideas on what they think they're up against.  And if they don't, I'll ask them.

 

 

That's fine...but not my own experience.  Amazing how different people in different places often have different experiences, eh?  Weird.

 

1 hour ago, IceColdUK said:

 

Disagree on this too.  We've all got to start somewhere.  Slap people down and they'll certainly lose any interest in puzzles.  Encourage them, and you may have a new recruit to this game within a game.

 

Who is "slapping people down"?  There's quite a difference between slapping someone down and simply not responding.  

 

Here are two examples for you.  The first one is a request on a puzzle that I did not respond to for the reason I already outlined:

MBzMIEl.png

 

What I look for is some indication that they have an idea or have explored options.  Nothing of the sort here.   All I see is "I want to get a smiley here".  Not "interesting puzzle, could it be related to _____?" or "Does your puzzle involve ______ or ______ to find the solution?"

Really, that's all it takes to get a response from me.  I'd hardly call that slapping someone down.

 

The next one is a request for help on a puzzle I put out that still has not been solved:

8F0M3WJ.png

Typo aside, what would you say is rude or unreasonable in my response?

So please...point to where I have "slapped people down".

 

 

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43 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

 

You might be right, but I’d give them the benefit of the doubt.  If a pattern emerges, that’s a different story; but as I said, we all have to start somewhere.

 

You are correct.  Where they should start is attempting to solve the puzzles before asking for hints.  Even throwing out potential avenues to pursue is enough for me to give feedback.  If someone asked if a puzzle was related to a certain method or subject matter,  I would at the very least confirm or deny.

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19 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Declining a request for help with a puzzle isn't insulting people so there's no risk there to worry about.

What I said what that ignoring someone, especially if a communciation is friendly, is risking coming off like a jerk to them. And since responding to a question is generally considered good etiquette, that's what I'm going to do, for their sake.

 

 

8 hours ago, J Grouchy said:
19 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I don't get offended merely if I don't get a response either - I learned long ago it's not worth it. But *I*  know that other people do and can get offended if *I* don't respond. So instead of thinking of myself first, if it just takes a quick reply, then yeah, I'm going to err on the side of being courteous, for their sake.

 

The cache, the cache page and the puzzle are all there for THEIR sake.  My helping them is not part of the deal.  If I see they actually thought about it and put some effort into solving it, I'm more likely to throw them the proverbial bone.  But no...almost always it's "I can't make heads or tails of your puzzle...would you mind giving me a nudge?"

My take on those is that these folks more than likely aren't really interested in puzzles at all.

 

I'm not sure how this point keeps getting lost - I'm not talking above about not getting the desired answer, I'm talking about not responding at all.  It's just a common courtesty to respond to a request, in a cordial, friendly manner, whether yes or no.  Ignoring a request isn't the same as responding and declining to help.  If someone still thinks you're being a jerk for not helping, well at least it's on them and you can say "at least I was being friendly" so it wasn't my attitude to a request that caused the offense, but the offense was inferred by a faulty expectation on their part.

 

 

7 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

What deal?  Do you make deals to help little old ladies across the road?  As far as I'm concerned choosing to help someone has nothing to do with deals.

 

Well, people can opt in to try to solve a puzzle. An old lady crossing the street kind of has to get to the other side.  Not providing help to someone who doesn't need help to solve a puzzle they choose to work on isn't the same as declining to help an old lady across the street just because you don't want to...

 

Now, if an old lady asked you for help and you just ignored her like she wasn't there, that in itself would be being a jerk. :P  If you were to at least respond, you'd have a chance to provide an explanation before your answer was judged in the context of the above. (in which case you'd still probably be a jerk if you said no, just a cordial jerk :P )

 

 

5 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

What I resent is being expected to reply to every request for help or hints just because someone opened my cache page and realized it didn't tell them exactly where the cache was located at first glance.

 

Ok to avoid confusion - when you say "expected to reply" are you referring to actually providing help, or merely responding to a request, even if it's a no?

Sure, in either case, you are not required by Groundspeak  to respond at all as part of the CO responsibilities. Of course not. But you stand a much greater chance of not coming off like a jerk to someone and offending them if at least you respond and provide a reason why you don't wish to give any help. As I mention above.

 

I mean really, in general community etiquette, no one is required to be nice to people. But hey, it's the nice thing to do. And even nice people may not be liked by everyone. We're not out to have everyone like us. But my perspective is this - if I can do something to make someone's life better - especially if it's of little to no effort or loss on my part, then, just as I'd love if someone else did that for me, I'll do that for them.  I don't expect anyone to do that for me, but darn right it's nicer if someone does!  That's the nature of the golden rule; it's positive, helpful, beneficial, selfless. If more COs were like that -- no, NOT submitting to every request and whim, but just being nice and friendly (without expecting the same in return) -- I think the community would be in a much better shape.  I can't control what other people think, but I can control what I do to influence such an outcome. So I'll try to err on the side of positivity, not negativity.

 

5 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

Here are two examples for you.  The first one is a request on a puzzle that I did not respond to for the reason I already outlined:

 

Why did you not respond? Why not simply ask how far they've gone, what work they've done? (even if you think it's none; at least that catches them and might encourage them to at least try so they can answer with a clean conscience). If I didn't want to give even a starting point, then I might suggest they just keep working on it, or just pass on the puzzle until later, or contact a previous finder - then it's their own conscience they're up against if they seek an answer some alternate way.  And at least I can say I encouraged something positive rather than risking offending someone by not even replying.

 

 

6 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

The next one is a request for help on a puzzle I put out that still has not been solved:

 

And that response was a great example of what I'm describing. That's a response I'd send, at least!  (or appreciate as a response more than absolute silence)

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Just to be clear - my part in this discussion is focusing on being irked by COs (or anyone really) who do not even respond to any request, in any manner (not those who simply decline to help by providing a tip to their puzzle - that's a different irk that I'm not as bothered by). :ph34r:

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26 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Why did you not respond? Why not simply ask how far they've gone, what work they've done? (even if you think it's none; at least that catches them and might encourage them to at least try so they can answer with a clean conscience).

 

A - I saw no real reason to.

B - I'm not concerned with them having a "clean conscience". 

C - Anyone actually interested in the puzzle itself has, in my own experience, at the very least commented on at least one aspect of that specific puzzle.  With a generic "I don't know where to start"...well, neither do I and if they won't expend the minimal effort to ask a more pointed question, I see no reason to expend any effort drawing it out of them.  

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Mentioned this years ago, but we had a guy who'd call for a hint on all FTFs.  I'd tell him "someone will be along to help soon", and he'd get ticked.

 - That guy bad-mouthed me at events for months.

He started calling/texting the slightly more reasonable other 2/3rds, and because she'd give him a hint, instead of telling him outright where it was... 

 ...that guy bad-mouthed the both of us for months.

 

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1 hour ago, J Grouchy said:

A - I saw no real reason to.

B - I'm not concerned with them having a "clean conscience". 

C - Anyone actually interested in the puzzle itself has, in my own experience, at the very least commented on at least one aspect of that specific puzzle.  With a generic "I don't know where to start"...well, neither do I and if they won't expend the minimal effort to ask a more pointed question, I see no reason to expend any effort drawing it out of them.  

 

Okay.

Well for me,

A] I would see a reason to - being nice.

B] Doesn't bother me either. I'd rather have  a clean conscience myself and as I said, not be the cause for someone else's offense; by being what society would generally consider a jerk

C] I agree. But once again, not answering at all to me is more inconsiderate and less friendly. So why would I intentionally do that? I'm saying what I would do, but I'm just to make the point - by not even answering, you are probably coming off like an inconsiderate unfriendly person - to some people. If you're okay with that, well okay then. I wouldn't be, especially since a mere response takes little to no effort at all.

But do whatever you want!

 

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:
2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:
22 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Declining a request for help with a puzzle isn't insulting people so there's no risk there to worry about.

What I said what that ignoring someone, especially if a communciation is friendly, is risking coming off like a jerk to them. And since responding to a question is generally considered good etiquette, that's what I'm going to do, for their sake.

 

Good grief - I thought we'd moved past this.

 

For the record what you actually said was:

 

22 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Hopefully the CO is a friendly person and doesn't risk insulting people by ignoring a likely friendly request

 

Dude. How is that any different than what I said? Are you trying to be a literal nuisance because what "I said" isn't word for word identical? Come on, the point is the same for both.

"doesn't risk insulting people by ignoring"

=

"ignoring some is risking coming off like a jerk"

I stand by my comments.

 

 

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

I know you like to edit your posts for quite some time after they've been originated...

 

Uh no. Stop. Once again, I'm done with you, couldn't read past that implication I intentionally misrepresent people.  I tried to be reasonable, but sorry, I'm out.

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2 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:
18 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Dude. How is that any different than what I said?

 

Please don't pretend not to know the difference.

I know you dislike actually making a clear point, but, for the record, I didn't understand the difference, either. It was very nearly "You said you said 'A', but here's what you really said: 'a'." So instead of complaining about him not seeing the difference, and then asserting there's a difference without supporting the claim, why don't you break down and actually explain yourself for once? If you can't do that, at least try not to call people liars just because they didn't understand your point.

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1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:
2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

But you stand a much greater chance of not coming off like a jerk to someone and offending them if at least you respond and provide a reason why you don't wish to give any help.

 

My experience doesn't support this claim.

 

I've found that even after taking the time to explain at length why I think they way I think and act the way I act with regard to puzzle caches people who don't get the help they want still respond negatively.

When you say your experience doesn't support thebruce0's claim, are you saying that you have evidence that these jerks you're talking about don't think you're a jerk and aren't offended when you blow them off? I assume what you really mean is that you don't care whether you come off like a jerk and offend them because they're offensive jerks.

 

I don't worry about the offensive jerks, I'm just always nice because this person might not be an offensive jerk. It doesn't cost me anything, and it might even show an offensive jerk how to be nice. When you act like a jerk and offend an offensive jerk, all you do is reinforce to him that being an offensive jerk is standard practice.

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Oh wow there's so many I could add to this although I think everybody has it covered.... I think somebody mentioned about not maintaining their caches I mention this because me and my boyfriend go out to geocache quite a bit and we are constantly drying out containers or bottles refilling them with new logs and new baggies and putting them back and when I message somebody about it or put it on the log when I find it... I think only one person wrote me back and said thank you I don't mind doing it but a simple thank you will do

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What Irks Me the Most is agencies with after-school programs, summer camps, and other groups that think it'd be a great field trip to loose their uneducated, unguided geo-swarms to descend on a cache. Invariably, without notice, without logging, without prior etiquette taught, without proper chaperoning. I've already had a group visit a cache. SWAG, TBs, everything gone.  No, they did leave the log and pencil. Another agency thought it'd be a swell idea to have a geo-challenge for a bit older kids. Just give them a list of coordinates, make sure they had the app, set them loose on the unsuspecting local caches. I had even less to show after that adventure since three of mine were targeted, though I did get a banana in pretty good shape out of that deal. Not sure what it was traded for. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by VAVAPAM
sp
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It irks me that some posters become adversorial and devolve into nitpicking semantics that become too tedious to read..

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On 7/10/2018 at 6:43 PM, MNTA said:
On 7/8/2018 at 6:16 AM, hzoi said:

I encourage folks to reach out to us on our puzzles, rather than go to the Facebook spoiler group.  I start by asking what they've figured out so far and how much of a hint they want. 

 

 

Sorry not on Facebook. But seriously why do you care about how a puzzle is solved

 

Because I don't want spoiler solutions to our puzzles broadcast on Facebook by the one guy who solved it so 20 mooks who couldn't be bothered figuring it out can just mine the coordinates and find the cache without any effort.  Selfish of me, I know.

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11 minutes ago, hzoi said:

 

Because I don't want spoiler solutions to our puzzles broadcast on Facebook by the one guy who solved it so 20 mooks who couldn't be bothered figuring it out can just mine the coordinates and find the cache without any effort.  Selfish of me, I know.

 

Yes.  I had several puzzles on my (now archived) Geoart listed on such a site.  Very annoying!

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1 hour ago, Harry Dolphin said:
1 hour ago, hzoi said:

 

Because I don't want spoiler solutions to our puzzles broadcast on Facebook by the one guy who solved it so 20 mooks who couldn't be bothered figuring it out can just mine the coordinates and find the cache without any effort.  Selfish of me, I know.

 

Yes.  I had several puzzles on my (now archived) Geoart listed on such a site.  Very annoying!

 

Oh! Oh! Also, trackable codes being published so the world can 'discover' them without any effort.  And Facebook groups behind closed doors that do it and encourage it knowingly without having the TB owners' permission.

I'm not a big trackable tracking guy, but that also irks me.  Getting codes just to post another discover log defeats the purpose of actually discovering them and that really is something that's just about the numbers. But sharing them without the owners' knowledge? Tantamount to publishing puzzle solutions (to many TB owners at least).

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16 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Okay.

Well for me,

A] I would see a reason to - being nice.

B] Doesn't bother me either. I'd rather have  a clean conscience myself and as I said, not be the cause for someone else's offense; by being what society would generally consider a jerk

C] I agree. But once again, not answering at all to me is more inconsiderate and less friendly. So why would I intentionally do that? I'm saying what I would do, but I'm just to make the point - by not even answering, you are probably coming off like an inconsiderate unfriendly person - to some people. If you're okay with that, well okay then. I wouldn't be, especially since a mere response takes little to no effort at all.

But do whatever you want!

 

 

A. Responding does not necessarily equate to "being nice".  

B. You can never control whether someone is "offended".  Even a "nice" response could end up being read as a swipe at them or rude response.  I'd rather let them get frustrated by no response than interact with someone who chooses not to put effort into a solve...or at least say they did.

C. Not responding to lazy cachers takes precisely zero effort, so it already has an advantage over any interaction at all.  

 

and...

 

D.  I've actually been interacting with you about this, yet you still feel the need to talk about it and make me out to be some rude jerk.  This is PRECISELY the sort of issue I'm talking about.  By pursuing this discussion, you are actually, in a way, proving my point.

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13 hours ago, colleda said:

It irks me that some posters become adversorial and devolve into nitpicking semantics that become too tedious to read..

 

With "Irk" in the forum title, those things are certainly forseeable.

 

The forums are nowhere as adversarial now as they were when I first joined in 2006. I remember some rants going on forever and people just exploding over silly things. When other forum readers could see the explosion coming, they would post a comment with nothing but this gif of Signal :drama:, then sit back and watch. 

Edited by Team Christiansen
added Signal

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Problem is, we're dealing with humans here and no two think exactly alike. I definitely prefer to solve puzzles myself, without any help, but there have been a time or two that I worked and worked but still couldn't make heads or tails of a puzzle. Asking the CO for a soft hint wasn't out of the question for me and a response of some sort was certainly appreciated. I can really only think of a couple of times that I actually asked. Responses came at those times but, if they hadn't, i would have just shrugged it off and moved on. Others would have labeled the CO a jerk if they had gotten no response. 

 

Although there is no requirement to respond, I kinda agree with theBruce that it is the better way to go. A person can geocache alone and pretty much avoid other geocachers but for the most part, this is a hobby that relies on social interaction. It's just too easy to click the reply button, add a quick response, and hit send. Your reply may get you labeled a jerk but in the end, who cares? 

 

My puzzle caches are placed to be a challenge so my intentions are that people try to figure them out on their own. But at the same time, I don't mind responding to a request for a nudge on my caches. There have been a few instances where people asked straight up for coordinates and I don't doubt at all that I became a jerk in their eyes when I didn't give those coordinates to them. :laughing:

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

A. Responding does not necessarily equate to "being nice".  

Well of course, if you don't respond nicely, then you're not being nice. I didn't encourage anyone to respond NOT nicely. Why would anyone encourage that? The whole point was responding cordially, in a friendly manner, rather than just ignoring the person and brushing them off.  What irks me are people who do that. Whether in geocaching or life in general.  Lots of stuff in this thread irks some people and not others.

 

36 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

B. You can never control whether someone is "offended".  Even a "nice" response could end up being read as a swipe at them or rude response.  I'd rather let them get frustrated by no response than interact with someone who chooses not to put effort into a solve...or at least say they did.

I said as much. And also said I'd rather not risk being the cause of offense by being what society generally considers unfriendly.  So if I can, I will reply and encourage a friendly interaction, even if the answer is not exactly what they want to hear.  Because that's how I'd like to be treated; so that's how I'll treat others.

 

38 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

D.  I've actually been interacting with you about this, yet you still feel the need to talk about it and make me out to be some rude jerk.  This is PRECISELY the sort of issue I'm talking about.  By pursuing this discussion, you are actually, in a way, proving my point.

Well yes, I'm raising the point that society generally considers people who ignore other people's requests entirely to be unfriendly. Do you disagree with that generalized assessment?  Do you think that ignoring someone is friendly?  I guess if you do then we'll never see eye to eye on that.  I'm not holding it against you. Do what you want.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Team Christiansen said:

The forums are nowhere as adversarial now as they were when I first joined in 2006.

Yowza :laughing:  But yes, forums and text-based internet discussions generally tend to bring the worst out in people. I do my best to leave that on the net because people tend to be very different in person.  I've seen many people able to be friends in meat-space but just not able to see eye to eye in online discussions.  It's possible to separate the two. Just need a thick digital skin ;P

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

<...>

 

Yowza :laughing:  But yes, forums and text-based internet discussions generally tend to bring the worst out in people. I do my best to leave that on the net because people tend to be very different in person.  I've seen many people able to be friends in meat-space but just not able to see eye to eye in online discussions.  It's possible to separate the two. Just need a thick digital skin ;P

 

MEAT-space? Where in the heck do you hang out?

 

And, are they accepting memberships?

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7 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

MEAT-space? Where in the heck do you hang out?

 

And, are they accepting memberships?

And do they use plates, or do they just cover the tables with butcher paper and toss the BBQ on the table in front of you? :D

 

8 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

I've seen many people able to be friends in meat-space but just not able to see eye to eye in online discussions.

I've seen similar patterns in gimmick car rallyes. Some couples (like my wife and me) work very well together as a driver–navigator team. Others, not so much. One pair of couples would show up at the start, and then the husbands would run the rallye in one car, and the wives would run the rallye in the other car. Everyone was much happier that way.

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