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What Irks you most?

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

But you stand a much greater chance of not coming off like a jerk to someone and offending them if at least you respond and provide a reason why you don't wish to give any help.

 

My experience doesn't support this claim.

 

I've found that even after taking the time to explain at length why I think they way I think and act the way I act with regard to puzzle caches people who don't get the help they want still respond negatively.

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Mentioned this years ago, but we had a guy who'd call for a hint on all FTFs.  I'd tell him "someone will be along to help soon", and he'd get ticked.

 - That guy bad-mouthed me at events for months.

He started calling/texting the slightly more reasonable other 2/3rds, and because she'd give him a hint, instead of telling him outright where it was... 

 ...that guy bad-mouthed the both of us for months.

 

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3 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Mentioned this years ago, but we had a guy who'd call for a hint on all FTFs.  I'd tell him "someone will be along to help soon", and he'd get ticked.

 - That guy bad-mouthed me at events for months.

He started calling/texting the slightly more reasonable other 2/3rds, and because she'd give him a hint, instead of telling him outright where it was... 

 ...that guy bad-mouthed the both of us for months.

 

 

We have a few of those around here. It's amazing how many are gullible enough to swallow anything they say - no matter how outlandish. That's kind of irksome too.

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1 hour ago, J Grouchy said:

A - I saw no real reason to.

B - I'm not concerned with them having a "clean conscience". 

C - Anyone actually interested in the puzzle itself has, in my own experience, at the very least commented on at least one aspect of that specific puzzle.  With a generic "I don't know where to start"...well, neither do I and if they won't expend the minimal effort to ask a more pointed question, I see no reason to expend any effort drawing it out of them.  

 

Okay.

Well for me,

A] I would see a reason to - being nice.

B] Doesn't bother me either. I'd rather have  a clean conscience myself and as I said, not be the cause for someone else's offense; by being what society would generally consider a jerk

C] I agree. But once again, not answering at all to me is more inconsiderate and less friendly. So why would I intentionally do that? I'm saying what I would do, but I'm just to make the point - by not even answering, you are probably coming off like an inconsiderate unfriendly person - to some people. If you're okay with that, well okay then. I wouldn't be, especially since a mere response takes little to no effort at all.

But do whatever you want!

 

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:
2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:
22 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Declining a request for help with a puzzle isn't insulting people so there's no risk there to worry about.

What I said what that ignoring someone, especially if a communciation is friendly, is risking coming off like a jerk to them. And since responding to a question is generally considered good etiquette, that's what I'm going to do, for their sake.

 

Good grief - I thought we'd moved past this.

 

For the record what you actually said was:

 

22 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Hopefully the CO is a friendly person and doesn't risk insulting people by ignoring a likely friendly request

 

Dude. How is that any different than what I said? Are you trying to be a literal nuisance because what "I said" isn't word for word identical? Come on, the point is the same for both.

"doesn't risk insulting people by ignoring"

=

"ignoring some is risking coming off like a jerk"

I stand by my comments.

 

 

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

I know you like to edit your posts for quite some time after they've been originated...

 

Uh no. Stop. Once again, I'm done with you, couldn't read past that implication I intentionally misrepresent people.  I tried to be reasonable, but sorry, I'm out.

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14 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Dude. How is that any different than what I said?

 

Please don't pretend not to know the difference.

 

14 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:
2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

I know you like to edit your posts for quite some time after they've been originated...

 

Uh no. Stop. Once again, I'm done with you, couldn't read past that implication I intentionally misrepresent people.  I tried to be reasonable, but sorry, I'm out.

 

What I actually said is above - in its unedited form. Feel free to check.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:
18 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Dude. How is that any different than what I said?

 

Please don't pretend not to know the difference.

I know you dislike actually making a clear point, but, for the record, I didn't understand the difference, either. It was very nearly "You said you said 'A', but here's what you really said: 'a'." So instead of complaining about him not seeing the difference, and then asserting there's a difference without supporting the claim, why don't you break down and actually explain yourself for once? If you can't do that, at least try not to call people liars just because they didn't understand your point.

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1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:
2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

But you stand a much greater chance of not coming off like a jerk to someone and offending them if at least you respond and provide a reason why you don't wish to give any help.

 

My experience doesn't support this claim.

 

I've found that even after taking the time to explain at length why I think they way I think and act the way I act with regard to puzzle caches people who don't get the help they want still respond negatively.

When you say your experience doesn't support thebruce0's claim, are you saying that you have evidence that these jerks you're talking about don't think you're a jerk and aren't offended when you blow them off? I assume what you really mean is that you don't care whether you come off like a jerk and offend them because they're offensive jerks.

 

I don't worry about the offensive jerks, I'm just always nice because this person might not be an offensive jerk. It doesn't cost me anything, and it might even show an offensive jerk how to be nice. When you act like a jerk and offend an offensive jerk, all you do is reinforce to him that being an offensive jerk is standard practice.

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7 minutes ago, dprovan said:

When you say your experience doesn't support thebruce0's claim, are you saying that you have evidence that these jerks you're talking about don't think you're a jerk and aren't offended when you blow them off? I assume what you really mean is that you don't care whether you come off like a jerk and offend them because they're offensive jerks.

 

I don't worry about the offensive jerks, I'm just always nice because this person might not be an offensive jerk. It doesn't cost me anything, and it might even show an offensive jerk how to be nice. When you act like a jerk and offend an offensive jerk, all you do is reinforce to him that being an offensive jerk is standard practice.

 

If I was saying that I'd have written something - anything - to that effect.

 

I don't know why anyone would read sonething I'd written and claim I had said something completely different.

 

Unless they were trolling.

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Oh wow there's so many I could add to this although I think everybody has it covered.... I think somebody mentioned about not maintaining their caches I mention this because me and my boyfriend go out to geocache quite a bit and we are constantly drying out containers or bottles refilling them with new logs and new baggies and putting them back and when I message somebody about it or put it on the log when I find it... I think only one person wrote me back and said thank you I don't mind doing it but a simple thank you will do

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What Irks Me the Most is agencies with after-school programs, summer camps, and other groups that think it'd be a great field trip to loose their uneducated, unguided geo-swarms to descend on a cache. Invariably, without notice, without logging, without prior etiquette taught, without proper chaperoning. I've already had a group visit a cache. SWAG, TBs, everything gone.  No, they did leave the log and pencil. Another agency thought it'd be a swell idea to have a geo-challenge for a bit older kids. Just give them a list of coordinates, make sure they had the app, set them loose on the unsuspecting local caches. I had even less to show after that adventure since three of mine were targeted, though I did get a banana in pretty good shape out of that deal. Not sure what it was traded for. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by VAVAPAM
sp

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It irks me that some posters become adversorial and devolve into nitpicking semantics that become too tedious to read..

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On 7/10/2018 at 6:43 PM, MNTA said:
On 7/8/2018 at 6:16 AM, hzoi said:

I encourage folks to reach out to us on our puzzles, rather than go to the Facebook spoiler group.  I start by asking what they've figured out so far and how much of a hint they want. 

 

 

Sorry not on Facebook. But seriously why do you care about how a puzzle is solved

 

Because I don't want spoiler solutions to our puzzles broadcast on Facebook by the one guy who solved it so 20 mooks who couldn't be bothered figuring it out can just mine the coordinates and find the cache without any effort.  Selfish of me, I know.

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11 minutes ago, hzoi said:

 

Because I don't want spoiler solutions to our puzzles broadcast on Facebook by the one guy who solved it so 20 mooks who couldn't be bothered figuring it out can just mine the coordinates and find the cache without any effort.  Selfish of me, I know.

 

Yes.  I had several puzzles on my (now archived) Geoart listed on such a site.  Very annoying!

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1 hour ago, Harry Dolphin said:
1 hour ago, hzoi said:

 

Because I don't want spoiler solutions to our puzzles broadcast on Facebook by the one guy who solved it so 20 mooks who couldn't be bothered figuring it out can just mine the coordinates and find the cache without any effort.  Selfish of me, I know.

 

Yes.  I had several puzzles on my (now archived) Geoart listed on such a site.  Very annoying!

 

Oh! Oh! Also, trackable codes being published so the world can 'discover' them without any effort.  And Facebook groups behind closed doors that do it and encourage it knowingly without having the TB owners' permission.

I'm not a big trackable tracking guy, but that also irks me.  Getting codes just to post another discover log defeats the purpose of actually discovering them and that really is something that's just about the numbers. But sharing them without the owners' knowledge? Tantamount to publishing puzzle solutions (to many TB owners at least).

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16 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Okay.

Well for me,

A] I would see a reason to - being nice.

B] Doesn't bother me either. I'd rather have  a clean conscience myself and as I said, not be the cause for someone else's offense; by being what society would generally consider a jerk

C] I agree. But once again, not answering at all to me is more inconsiderate and less friendly. So why would I intentionally do that? I'm saying what I would do, but I'm just to make the point - by not even answering, you are probably coming off like an inconsiderate unfriendly person - to some people. If you're okay with that, well okay then. I wouldn't be, especially since a mere response takes little to no effort at all.

But do whatever you want!

 

 

A. Responding does not necessarily equate to "being nice".  

B. You can never control whether someone is "offended".  Even a "nice" response could end up being read as a swipe at them or rude response.  I'd rather let them get frustrated by no response than interact with someone who chooses not to put effort into a solve...or at least say they did.

C. Not responding to lazy cachers takes precisely zero effort, so it already has an advantage over any interaction at all.  

 

and...

 

D.  I've actually been interacting with you about this, yet you still feel the need to talk about it and make me out to be some rude jerk.  This is PRECISELY the sort of issue I'm talking about.  By pursuing this discussion, you are actually, in a way, proving my point.

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3 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

A. Responding does not necessarily equate to "being nice".  

 

Of course responding equates to being nice - just as long as your response is precisely what the other person wants to hear.

 

If your response isn't precisely what the other person wants to hear then you're a jerk - regardless of how polite you were. :ph34r:

Edited by Team Microdot
I meant HEAR not HERE!

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13 hours ago, colleda said:

It irks me that some posters become adversorial and devolve into nitpicking semantics that become too tedious to read..

 

With "Irk" in the forum title, those things are certainly forseeable.

 

The forums are nowhere as adversarial now as they were when I first joined in 2006. I remember some rants going on forever and people just exploding over silly things. When other forum readers could see the explosion coming, they would post a comment with nothing but this gif of Signal :drama:, then sit back and watch. 

Edited by Team Christiansen
added Signal

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Problem is, we're dealing with humans here and no two think exactly alike. I definitely prefer to solve puzzles myself, without any help, but there have been a time or two that I worked and worked but still couldn't make heads or tails of a puzzle. Asking the CO for a soft hint wasn't out of the question for me and a response of some sort was certainly appreciated. I can really only think of a couple of times that I actually asked. Responses came at those times but, if they hadn't, i would have just shrugged it off and moved on. Others would have labeled the CO a jerk if they had gotten no response. 

 

Although there is no requirement to respond, I kinda agree with theBruce that it is the better way to go. A person can geocache alone and pretty much avoid other geocachers but for the most part, this is a hobby that relies on social interaction. It's just too easy to click the reply button, add a quick response, and hit send. Your reply may get you labeled a jerk but in the end, who cares? 

 

My puzzle caches are placed to be a challenge so my intentions are that people try to figure them out on their own. But at the same time, I don't mind responding to a request for a nudge on my caches. There have been a few instances where people asked straight up for coordinates and I don't doubt at all that I became a jerk in their eyes when I didn't give those coordinates to them. :laughing:

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

A. Responding does not necessarily equate to "being nice".  

Well of course, if you don't respond nicely, then you're not being nice. I didn't encourage anyone to respond NOT nicely. Why would anyone encourage that? The whole point was responding cordially, in a friendly manner, rather than just ignoring the person and brushing them off.  What irks me are people who do that. Whether in geocaching or life in general.  Lots of stuff in this thread irks some people and not others.

 

36 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

B. You can never control whether someone is "offended".  Even a "nice" response could end up being read as a swipe at them or rude response.  I'd rather let them get frustrated by no response than interact with someone who chooses not to put effort into a solve...or at least say they did.

I said as much. And also said I'd rather not risk being the cause of offense by being what society generally considers unfriendly.  So if I can, I will reply and encourage a friendly interaction, even if the answer is not exactly what they want to hear.  Because that's how I'd like to be treated; so that's how I'll treat others.

 

38 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

D.  I've actually been interacting with you about this, yet you still feel the need to talk about it and make me out to be some rude jerk.  This is PRECISELY the sort of issue I'm talking about.  By pursuing this discussion, you are actually, in a way, proving my point.

Well yes, I'm raising the point that society generally considers people who ignore other people's requests entirely to be unfriendly. Do you disagree with that generalized assessment?  Do you think that ignoring someone is friendly?  I guess if you do then we'll never see eye to eye on that.  I'm not holding it against you. Do what you want.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Team Christiansen said:

The forums are nowhere as adversarial now as they were when I first joined in 2006.

Yowza :laughing:  But yes, forums and text-based internet discussions generally tend to bring the worst out in people. I do my best to leave that on the net because people tend to be very different in person.  I've seen many people able to be friends in meat-space but just not able to see eye to eye in online discussions.  It's possible to separate the two. Just need a thick digital skin ;P

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3 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

Your reply may get you labeled a jerk but in the end, who cares?

 

If you're going to be labelled a jerk whether you reply or not, might as well save yourself the effort and put the time which would be wasted in replying to some better use :)

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

<...>

 

Yowza :laughing:  But yes, forums and text-based internet discussions generally tend to bring the worst out in people. I do my best to leave that on the net because people tend to be very different in person.  I've seen many people able to be friends in meat-space but just not able to see eye to eye in online discussions.  It's possible to separate the two. Just need a thick digital skin ;P

 

MEAT-space? Where in the heck do you hang out?

 

And, are they accepting memberships?

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7 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

MEAT-space? Where in the heck do you hang out?

 

And, are they accepting memberships?

And do they use plates, or do they just cover the tables with butcher paper and toss the BBQ on the table in front of you? :D

 

8 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

I've seen many people able to be friends in meat-space but just not able to see eye to eye in online discussions.

I've seen similar patterns in gimmick car rallyes. Some couples (like my wife and me) work very well together as a driver–navigator team. Others, not so much. One pair of couples would show up at the start, and then the husbands would run the rallye in one car, and the wives would run the rallye in the other car. Everyone was much happier that way.

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15 hours ago, VAVAPAM said:

What Irks Me the Most is agencies with after-school programs, summer camps, and other groups that think it'd be a great field trip to loose their uneducated, unguided geo-swarms to descend on a cache.

 

Have to temper this last post with the discovery that a cub scout pack recently visited one of my caches. Main entry "pack #x", with initials of all the cubs. Nice trades, RaF so well I didn't even know they'd been there until I saw the logbook. THIS makes me completely un-irked! Kudos to group leaders showing them how to do it right.

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10 minutes ago, VAVAPAM said:

Kudos to group leaders showing them how to do it right.

When I teach kids geocaching, I make a point of not showing them the neighborhood caches. (Even if I trust all the kids in my group, I don't necessarily trust all their friends who might learn about the cool containers hidden in the neighborhood.)

 

I either have them find temporary containers that I have personally placed just for the geocaching class; or take them on a hike in a park or open space that's further away, and supervise them during that geocaching hike.

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3 hours ago, Team Christiansen said:

The forums are nowhere as adversarial now as they were when I first joined in 2006. I remember some rants going on forever and people just exploding over silly things. When other forum readers could see the explosion coming, they would post a comment with nothing but this gif of Signal :drama:, then sit back and watch. 

 

Yep.

I believe folks sometimes confuse faceboook with forums. 

Disagreeing with another once on a local caching site, they said, "you couldn't talk to me like that on faceboook, a mod would stop that" after I called bs on something said (I was where he mentioned, he wasn't...).  

I asked "what would be the purpose of a 'discussion' where everyone agrees with you ?".  :)

 

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7 hours ago, Harry Dolphin said:

 

Yes.  I had several puzzles on my (now archived) Geoart listed on such a site.  Very annoying!

 

I don't know which site you were looking at but there's one Puzzle Help group on FB that doesn't post solutions, but "help" or "hints" that will lead one to solving it.  In practice, some of the help might as well be a solution and frequently it's a pointer to some site that will basically spit out the answer (e.g. an online Sudoku solver).   That group should not be confused with a couple of sites/spreadsheets that, given a GC code, one could get the final coordinates.  

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15 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Well, that's just hysterical. Thanks for the link!

 

Tongue-in-cheek, I posted my earlier comment assuming that the term as used by theBruce0 was an equally edgy, humorous intentional misspelling of something like "MEET-space", meaning the physical world, or "IRL" as opposed to in 'cyberspace'. Very funny, the misspelling makes it onto a pun, and I love a good pun. Actually, a bad pun is better.

 

BUT, as it turns out, that term is already accepted English, meaning exactly what it says! "Meat" space, meaning the place where us "meat-bags" (a term popular in edgy lit - sets us apart from robots and BEMs (bug-eyed monsters)) hang out!

 

Laughing emoticon. (I don't know how to do that in a post, so I just typed it.)

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23 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Well of course, if you don't respond nicely, then you're not being nice. I didn't encourage anyone to respond NOT nicely. Why would anyone encourage that? The whole point was responding cordially, in a friendly manner, rather than just ignoring the person and brushing them off.  What irks me are people who do that. Whether in geocaching or life in general.  Lots of stuff in this thread irks some people and not others.

 

I said as much. And also said I'd rather not risk being the cause of offense by being what society generally considers unfriendly.  So if I can, I will reply and encourage a friendly interaction, even if the answer is not exactly what they want to hear.  Because that's how I'd like to be treated; so that's how I'll treat others.

 

Well yes, I'm raising the point that society generally considers people who ignore other people's requests entirely to be unfriendly. Do you disagree with that generalized assessment?  Do you think that ignoring someone is friendly?  I guess if you do then we'll never see eye to eye on that.  I'm not holding it against you. Do what you want.

 

 

Yowza :laughing:  But yes, forums and text-based internet discussions generally tend to bring the worst out in people. I do my best to leave that on the net because people tend to be very different in person.  I've seen many people able to be friends in meat-space but just not able to see eye to eye in online discussions.  It's possible to separate the two. Just need a thick digital skin ;P

 

 

Another example I just received:

 

q3Ph8dz.png

 

I blanked out the user name and the name of the cache.  

But you get the gist.  If I respond with a simple "no"...I'd be labeled rude.  If I don't respond, there is the slight chance this person might consider me rude. If I spend a couple minutes devising a response meant to not offend, I've not only wasted my own time, but there is still the chance they might consider my response rude.  About the only way they would not consider me rude is if I either straight out told them how to solve the puzzle or gave them enough hints to solve it, thus completely defeating the entire purpose of publishing a puzzle.  

 

No...to me, the easiest and best way to handle this is just to not respond.  It's the least amount of risk while still maintaining the integrity of the puzzle.  Call me rude, call me a jerk, but I stand by my reasoning.  You can worry all you want about how others will perceive you.  Not my style.

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18 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

 

 

Another example I just received:

 

q3Ph8dz.png

 

I blanked out the user name and the name of the cache.  

But you get the gist.  If I respond with a simple "no"...I'd be labeled rude.  If I don't respond, there is the slight chance this person might consider me rude. If I spend a couple minutes devising a response meant to not offend, I've not only wasted my own time, but there is still the chance they might consider my response rude.  About the only way they would not consider me rude is if I either straight out told them how to solve the puzzle or gave them enough hints to solve it, thus completely defeating the entire purpose of publishing a puzzle.  

 

No...to me, the easiest and best way to handle this is just to not respond.  It's the least amount of risk while still maintaining the integrity of the puzzle.  Call me rude, call me a jerk, but I stand by my reasoning.  You can worry all you want about how others will perceive you.  Not my style.

 

All of this ^^^

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16 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

I blanked out the user name and the name of the cache.  

But you get the gist.  If I respond with a simple "no"...I'd be labeled rude.  If I don't respond, there is the slight chance this person might consider me rude. If I spend a couple minutes devising a response meant to not offend, I've not only wasted my own time, but there is still the chance they might consider my response rude.  About the only way they would not consider me rude is if I either straight out told them how to solve the puzzle or gave them enough hints to solve it, thus completely defeating the entire purpose of publishing a puzzle.  

 

No...to me, the easiest and best way to handle this is just to not respond.  It's the least amount of risk while still maintaining the integrity of the puzzle.  Call me rude, call me a jerk, but I stand by my reasoning.  You can worry all you want about how others will perceive you.  Not my style.

 

Speaking for myself, yes, I would craft a 101-style response about the puzzle. Why would I consider that wasted time just because I didn't want to risk offending? I don't see how you can jump to "wasted time" just by spending time to craft a response.  If they end up ignoring my nicely crafted response, I still don't consider it wasted time. I did my part at trying to keep the community a friendly place. The rest is on them.

 

But as I said, do what you want. I don't know how you came by your user name, but I presume I'm right in assuming it's a tongue in cheek name because of some choices you make that you are personally okay with which tend to come off 'grouchy' to others. *shrug* Maybe I'm wrong and it has no connection to any kind of attitude (if that's part of your real name then my apologies for assuming anything). C'est la vie. Thanks for the respectable chat. We'll have to agree to disagree. We see communication with people in different ways, and that's just fine.

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30 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

But as I said, do what you want. I don't know how you came by your user name, but I presume I'm right in assuming...

 

You can presume and assume all you want, but it actually has nothing to do with my personality or how people who actually know me perceive me.  It's actually based on something much more mundane than that.

I could pull out the tired old adage about what it means to "assume"...but there's really no need. You will judge me based on a nickname and I can't really control that.  

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I note you left out the rest of that paragraph where I said:

49 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Maybe I'm wrong and it has no connection to any kind of attitude (if that's part of your real name then my apologies for assuming anything).

 

So I'll reiterate that - it appears I'm wrong about the origin of your alias, so my apologies. Nonetheless:

 

50 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. We see communication with people in different ways, and that's just fine.

 

I'll choose to err on the side of cordiality and not ignorance (in the literal sense of ignoring someone), and continue to enourage such an ethic, hopefully to help improve the general state of the community I interact with.

 

Because when someone ignores me, it irks me.

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On 7/10/2018 at 1:32 PM, dprovan said:

Except the comparable example would be the CO with the climbing cache refusing to answer questions about how to safely approach the climb or where to get permits. Having said that, there's no requirement the owner of a climbing cache provide that information, either, but it's easy to see how it might be viewed as similarly unfriendly.

 

A couple years ago I was thinking of doing a cache where the CO said "Take Road A to get to this cache."  Looking at the satellite view it looked like Road B would get there, and be a lot shorter, so I asked the CO if I could get there via Road B, and the answer I got was "Go ahead and try it if you want to."  I took that to mean "No" but I think it would have been a lot friendlier to say "No that doesn't go through." Or whatever reason.  Maybe I should have just assumed that, when told to take Road A, that was the only way to get there, but I have come across other situations where the directions specified one route just because that was the way the person always went from the direction of their home, and I was coming from another direction and there were other equally good routes.

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2 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

Another example I just received:

 

q3Ph8dz.png

Yeah, for something like that, I'd reply with a question like, "What did you make of the encrypted hints?"

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Much of the hassles in my area with folks trying to get "extra" help  (FTF maybe)  is to just put "I'll try to provide any additional hints, after the FTF has been grabbed.  Thanks for your understanding. :) " or similar on the cache page.  Seen on a lot of hides.   Easy to delete later.

Otherwise, it's simple to communicate what your "help" entails by including that information on the cache page. 

 

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1 minute ago, cerberus1 said:

Much of the hassles in my area with folks trying to get "extra" help  (FTF maybe)  is to just put "I'll try to provide any additional hints, after the FTF has been grabbed.  Thanks for your understanding. :) " or similar on the cache page.  Seen on a lot of hides.   Easy to delete later.

Otherwise, it's simple to communicate what your "help" entails by including that information on the cache page. 

 

Yeah that's a good way to help pre-empt the potential for angst. I know a number of COs who will not provide hints at all. But, at least they typically disclaim that up front and are friendly about it :)

 

However, I suppose another irk I find - listings that have in the Hint section: "not yet" or "not until ftf"... and it was published years ago, with oodles of finds since. argh! :laughing:

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2 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

But you get the gist.  If I respond with a simple "no"...I'd be labeled rude.  If I don't respond, there is the slight chance this person might consider me rude. If I spend a couple minutes devising a response meant to not offend, I've not only wasted my own time, but there is still the chance they might consider my response rude.  About the only way they would not consider me rude is if I either straight out told them how to solve the puzzle or gave them enough hints to solve it, thus completely defeating the entire purpose of publishing a puzzle.  

What if you just responded with, "What have you tried?"

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3 hours ago, Team Microdot said:
4 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

I blanked out the user name and the name of the cache.  

But you get the gist.  If I respond with a simple "no"...I'd be labeled rude.  If I don't respond, there is the slight chance this person might consider me rude. If I spend a couple minutes devising a response meant to not offend, I've not only wasted my own time, but there is still the chance they might consider my response rude.  About the only way they would not consider me rude is if I either straight out told them how to solve the puzzle or gave them enough hints to solve it, thus completely defeating the entire purpose of publishing a puzzle.  

 

No...to me, the easiest and best way to handle this is just to not respond.  It's the least amount of risk while still maintaining the integrity of the puzzle.  Call me rude, call me a jerk, but I stand by my reasoning.  You can worry all you want about how others will perceive you.  Not my style.

 

All of this ^^^

 

1 hour ago, TriciaG said:

What if you just responded with, "What have you tried?"

 

That's probably what I have would have done.  I might also have added, "How much of a hint to do want?" and would thank the geocacher for expressing interest in my puzzle cache.

 

When someone asks for help without giving any other information I also wonder, as someone suggested earlier if it's someone that wants to solve the puzzle, or is just looking for the solutions so that they can go find it and increase their find count.  When I see something like "I have no idea where to start" it sometimes might indicated that there's a bit too much moon logic in the puzzle.  It may also indicated that they haven't spent much time actually solving puzzles.  Something I see fairly often is, "I can't figure this out...I have looked in the source code and don't see anything".   Sure, there are some puzzles that will put the puzzle in the source code (e.g. as commented out html) but if that's all someone knows about solving puzzle caches, they're not going to get very far on *most* puzzles.    

 

I also frequently see something like "I need to solve this puzzle...I will be in the area soon".  First, nobody needs to solve every puzzle (or find every cache).   Some puzzle are very difficult and are intended to be hard to solve and make take days, weeks or months to fully solve it.  For a high difficulty puzzle I would *expect* that it should take a considerable amount of time to solve it.  

 

The primary reason that I would respond with "What have you tried?" rather than not respond at all is that an "unresponsive CO" is often seen as an invitation to find a solution elsewhere (asking someone that has already solved it).    I'd rather give the solution to someone that asks if that encourages them to ask the CO first before looking elsewhere for the answer.

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19 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

The primary reason that I would respond with "What have you tried?" rather than not respond at all is that an "unresponsive CO" is often seen as an invitation to find a solution elsewhere (asking someone that has already solved it).    I'd rather give the solution to someone that asks if that encourages them to ask the CO first before looking elsewhere for the answer.

 

To what end?

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1 minute ago, Team Microdot said:

 

To what end?

 

Only to encourage those that wan't to find puzzle caches to give the creator of that puzzle the opportunity to decide how much help they want to give.   Some people like the mental challenge of a difficult puzzle.   I would think that a cache owner that creates puzzle cache does so with the intent that those that find the cache, actually solve the puzzle (and, ideally, understand how the puzzle needs to be solved).  Getting "help" on a puzzle from someone else might circumvent the intent of the CO, and potentially result in a CO deciding they don't want to put the energy into any more puzzle caches if most people are only looking for the solution (rather than solving the puzzle).  If that happens, those that enjoy the mental challenge of a difficult puzzle lose.

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2 hours ago, TriciaG said:

What if you just responded with, "What have you tried?"

 

Again...it's drawing me into a conversation that likely ends up with someone who isn't really interested in puzzles getting upset that I didn't spoonfeed them the solution.  I just don't get into that from the start.

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13 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:
21 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

To what end?

 

Only to encourage those that wan't to find puzzle caches to give the creator of that puzzle the opportunity to decide how much help they want to give.   Some people like the mental challenge of a difficult puzzle.   I would think that a cache owner that creates puzzle cache does so with the intent that those that find the cache, actually solve the puzzle (and, ideally, understand how the puzzle needs to be solved).  Getting "help" on a puzzle from someone else might circumvent the intent of the CO, and potentially result in a CO deciding they don't want to put the energy into any more puzzle caches if most people are only looking for the solution (rather than solving the puzzle).  If that happens, those that enjoy the mental challenge of a difficult puzzle lose.

 

I can't disagree with any of that.

 

But the way that tends to go - with rare exceptions - in my experience - is the CO ends up walking the seeker to the solution or, provides as many hints as they consider appropriate after which the seeker goes and either gets the rest of the solution or simply the final coordinates anyway.

 

Chances are, also, that this person who now has the solution and the final coordinates is simply going to share them out or trade them anyway - rendering the CO's first interaction with their clientele also their last.

 

I don't class that as a worthwhile investment any more.

 

In our area the sort of cacher who enjoys the mental challenge of a puzzle is a rare beast - far,  far outnumbered by the sort of beast that likes to have lots of puzzles in their found count.

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Obviously there are a lot of feelings and opinions on the subject of puzzle solvability and providing help.

 

Maybe publishing is were additional scrutiny is required. Earth caches  are in a way peer reviewed by experts in the field. How about a peer review process for puzzles. It could be setup regionally so local cachers do not get to see the inner workings of the puzzle and get the experience of solving and finding the cache. Those puzzle "experts" volunteers get the benefit of solving challenging puzzles and providing feedback to the puzzle owner, is this solvable with the given information. Is the solution correct, no typos and the like. Feedback on the difficulty for initial publishing. 

 

Though this only helps part of the problem. You can not force a CO to do anything. If they don't want to help you have a choice solve it on your own, ask others for help, or move to ignore list. Personally I'd hope the CO would provide some help like have a stored canned 2nd hint they could provide. Feel free to ignore the folks that just want the answer, IMHO.

 

 

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10 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

If I respond with a simple "no"...I'd be labeled rude.

"No, sorry, I don't give out hints for that cache." Hard to see how that could be considered rude.

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11 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

Another example I just received:

 

q3Ph8dz.png

 

 

If I received that, and the person asking wasn't someone I know, I might offer them a few links to the educational puzzle-solving websites or perhaps the Geocaching Toolbox if that's relevant, particularly if they appeared to be a newbie. Most of my puzzles have thinly-veiled hints either in words or phrases in the description or html comments in the source, which I'd be happy to give them a nudge towards. I'm also reminded of one of my university lecturers whose initial response to questions like that was always, in his wonderful Irish accent, "Go away and think about it." When you did that and came back to discuss your thoughts, he'd be more than happy to provide whatever help you needed to develop an understanding of the topic.

 

Actually I wish someone would ask me that question on my most recent puzzle cache, published in February, as it's only had two finders (both in the first couple of weeks, one of whom asked for a nudge with the final step). It's getting rather lonely sitting up on the hilltop. If my nudges help them understand the processes in solving it and they then go out and enjoy the bushwalk and cache, that seems like a win-win, even more so if that experience opens their eyes to solving other siimilar puzzles. It's surely better than them staring at the page with blank eyes for half the night and then muttering something profane about BFJ and his stupid bloody puzzles!

 

Having said that, if someone were to come straight out and just ask for the solution, I'd probably tell them to go away and think about it. I'd still respond, though, as if I don't receive a response to something I start to wonder whether my email or the CO's response was gobbled up by a spam filter or if the Message Centre has hiccuped or if I've somehow offended them. I'd much rather just get told, "Sorry, I can't help you" than be left wondering.

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On 14/07/2018 at 2:02 AM, dprovan said:
On 13/07/2018 at 3:39 PM, J Grouchy said:

If I respond with a simple "no"...I'd be labeled rude.

"No, sorry, I don't give out hints for that cache." Hard to see how that could be considered rude.

 

It is, isn't it?

 

And yet people's responses still indicate that they consider it offensive.

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:40 PM, J Grouchy said:

 

Again...it's drawing me into a conversation that likely ends up with someone who isn't really interested in puzzles getting upset that I didn't spoonfeed them the solution.  I just don't get into that from the start.

 

When I'm PM'ed for a "leetle hint" on a cache (and if I'm delivering such hints), I provide hints, and then the actual coordinates to the cache, "Don't look if you want to figure it out yourself!".  Otherwise, there's another PM, "OK, I don't understand Step 3".  Then they can't figure out "Step 4".  Then the rest, until I provide the location on a silver platter.  Cool.

 

Nobody's complained when I send too many spoilers. ;)

 

When I PAF a friend about cache he doesn't own, he tends to not remember that cache at all.  So that's another way to do it.  It's only slightly more irksome when someone writes to collaborate on a cache puzzle, and I provide what I've figured out so far, and they finish solving it and go get FTF.  "Yay! I found It!"  And then after that they don't remember that cache at all. :mad:

 

But don't ask me for logical steps to the solution, if nobody else has solved it.  I didn't understand much of that puzzle.  I simply made assumptions at a step or two, and that plan somehow panned out. 

 

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2 hours ago, kunarion said:

Otherwise, there's another PM, "OK, I don't understand Step 3".  Then they can't figure out "Step 4".  Then the rest, until I provide the location on a silver platter.  Cool.

 

It's even funnier when your puzzle is obviously being crowd solved and within five minutes of handing out a hint to one person for one stage you get a message from the next person who, amazingly, explains the means by which they've got to the stage you just gave a hint out for to, cough, prove that they've invested some effort.

 

The trick is to use very specific but unnatural terminology in the hint you give out and then, when the next person uses that precise terminology the trap is sprung :lol:

 

 

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