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thehoomer
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During a conversation with a well known and respected cacher the other day, we agreed that this forum seems to be declining quite markedly in participation. He suggested that many had deflected to Facetwit or similar. Whilst I don't know for certain that this be the case, I suspect he may be right. Both he and I do not go on these other communication sites and I am reasonably confident we never will.

I was just wondering do most of you dip in and out of the various forums or do you only post on/view this site?

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We keep an eye on this forum daily but most of the general UK geocaching "chat" is now on facebook where there are over 40 regional UK geocaching groups, and many other geocaching-related groups such as the GAGB, UK Geocaching Camping Events, UK & Ireland GC Reviewers & Community Tea Bar, the Podcache show, (UK) Geocachers with cameras etc etc.

 

Almost too much, to be honest :unsure:

 

MrsB

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We keep an eye on this forum daily but most of the general UK geocaching "chat" is now on facebook where there are over 40 regional UK geocaching groups, and many other geocaching-related groups such as the GAGB, UK Geocaching Camping Events, UK & Ireland GC Reviewers & Community Tea Bar, the Podcache show, (UK) Geocachers with cameras etc etc.

 

Almost too much, to be honest :unsure:

 

MrsB

Ok MrsB, thanks for that. Can you tell me though (because its all a bit, 'smoke and mirrors' to me) what makes these other sites more appealing? I just think its a shame that there seems to be so much Tumbleweed on here now. Can GC do anything to make this site more appealing or has it had its day?

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,I too, do not / will not, use Twitface etc. I think that some, at least, of the decline in this forum began as a result of the proliferation of regional fora; though I have never used them so I do not know if they, too, are loosing out to Twitface

 

I suppose that one advantage of other Fora & Twitface is that Groundspeak can't censor them so you can use the 'C word' and others that are banned here.

Edited by Just Roger
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Ok MrsB, thanks for that. Can you tell me though (because its all a bit, 'smoke and mirrors' to me) what makes these other sites more appealing? I just think its a shame that there seems to be so much Tumbleweed on here now. Can GC do anything to make this site more appealing or has it had its day?

What makes FB more appealing? For me it is one thing and one thing only - critical mass. Like it or not, it's where the action has moved to. Some time ago the lack of activity on local forums reached the point where I joined FB. I use it only for caching related stuff, nothing else.

 

From the usability point of view it's not as good as the forums. It's designed primarily for inconsequential chatter, not serious discussion. There is a vast amount of dross and some people post reams of stuff which it is impossible to imagine can be of the slightest interest to anyone but themselves. It can be hard to go back and find stuff that is more than a few hours old. The user interface is inconsistent and having the return key post a message instead of starting a new line drives me up the wall. If anything, it is too easy for anyone to start a group, so there is little structure or organisation.

 

But the over-riding factor is that it is what the majority use. When it comes to most things you can pick what you want to use without having to worry about what everyone else is doing. For talking about caching that just doesn't apply - you have to go where the other cachers are, or talk to yourself.

 

Rgds, Andy

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I think the appeal of Facebook (with reference to UK geocaching matters) is that it's easy and convenient.

 

I joined FB in 2007 and at that time the only (UK) geocaching group on there was Geocaching UK which had about 50 members... It now has nearly 2500, with more being adding daily.

 

Just as these Groundspeak forums suffered a decline when the various regional UK forums started to appear, now they, in turn, are declining as geocachers migrate to FB.

 

So many people already have a fb profile, to keep in touch with family/friends/acquaintances world-wide it was inevitable that they would expand to encompasses their interests and favourite hobbies such as geocaching.

 

MrsB

 

Edited to add - I can't comment on Twitter, I've never used it and I've no idea how much it's used for UK geocaching matters.

Edited by The Blorenges
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Heavy-handed moderation on this site is enough to kill it! :mad:

 

I only use Facebook for Geocaching related stuff and I use my own name. Whereas this is a joint caching account. For that reason I usually communicate with the reviewers through Facebook as well.

 

Mark

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Facebook is a lot easier to share pictures of your caching activities, literally a few clicks and you can have a full album on display for people to see. Here it can take ages if you want it all in the forum.

Also, you can tag people to a post and they get an email letting them know that there may be something to interest them. There is in fact so much you can do on Facebook that you can't do here.

 

Now I personally don't really care what you call Facebook, or any other site. But in this instance it would appear that for those that don't like it, the thread naming of it means we all must be idiots (twits) for using it!! <_< So in the same breath, I tend to find that the antiquated don't tend to move with the times. :o

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Now I personally don't really care what you call Facebook, or any other site. But in this instance it would appear that for those that don't like it, the thread naming of it means we all must be idiots (twits) for using it!!

 

 

Unless it was meant as a conjunction of FB and Twitter........

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Facebook is a lot easier to share pictures of your caching activities, literally a few clicks and you can have a full album on display for people to see. Here it can take ages if you want it all in the forum.

Also, you can tag people to a post and they get an email letting them know that there may be something to interest them. There is in fact so much you can do on Facebook that you can't do here.

 

Now I personally don't really care what you call Facebook, or any other site. But in this instance it would appear that for those that don't like it, the thread naming of it means we all must be idiots (twits) for using it!! <_< So in the same breath, I tend to find that the antiquated don't tend to move with the times. :o

 

Its a Facebook/Twitter combo and is not meant to be derisory.

I could not (or have not) said I don't like FB. It would be inaccurate for me to do so, as I have no knowledge of it. This is the reason for the Thread.

As for me being antiquated and not moving with the times, you are absolutely right but strangely, I'm cock-a-hoop with that :)

It's good to hear all the different viewpoints on it all though, that's what I was after. Thanks.

Edited by thehoomer
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I lurk here often, and post occasionally. Nothing's changed there. I also frequent the couple of local forums daily.

 

I deleted my FB account a few years ago about the time I started caching, for personal reasons, and also to give me an added boost to get away from computer screens and get outdoors. I'm still behind a screen too much of the day now IMO, so I won't sign up again.

 

I do use twitter, it's a useful tool. I also have a cacheface.com account, which is kind of a FB clone but just for geocaching.

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Facebook's great for the "here and now", and as Amberel says, has the users - especially non technical one. Posting on a forum can be quite scary for some.

 

Where FB falls down for me is the ability to search old posts. You see the same things cropping up over and over, and even if a subject was only discussed last week it's really hard to find it and link to it. Because of that, I tend to view FB less as a long term resource and more a quick chat and go place.

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I'm pretty much like Amberel & Dartymoor I suppose. I resisted Facebook until last year when it seemed that anything Geocaching related was being discussed on FB and not on the forums, so I signed up. Personally I think it's a lot less useful than the forums due to the difficulty of looking up old posts meaning the same things come up again and again. There's also a lot more chat, which I personally think is a waste of keystrokes !).

 

Whether you like it or not Facebook is where it's at at the moment, due to the critical mass, whether that changes in the future will depend on the next "big thing".

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Unless it was meant as a conjunction of FB and Twitter........

 

Its a Facebook/Twitter combo and is not meant to be derisory.

 

I had overlooked that possibility, may be due to the fact I have never even looked at Twitter never mind have an account. Please accept my apologies. :)

No need to apologise, I understand how it may have been misconstrued :) .

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Unless it was meant as a conjunction of FB and Twitter........

 

Its a Facebook/Twitter combo and is not meant to be derisory.

 

I had overlooked that possibility, may be due to the fact I have never even looked at Twitter never mind have an account. Please accept my apologies. :)

No need to apologise, I understand how it may have been misconstrued :) .

On facebook I could have clicked 'like' for this post and you would have known I liked what you said without having to do another message.

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Unless it was meant as a conjunction of FB and Twitter........

 

Its a Facebook/Twitter combo and is not meant to be derisory.

 

I had overlooked that possibility, may be due to the fact I have never even looked at Twitter never mind have an account. Please accept my apologies. :)

No need to apologise, I understand how it may have been misconstrued :) .

On facebook I could have clicked 'like' for this post and you would have known I liked what you said without having to do another message.

 

 

Like............. :lol: :lol:

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Now I personally don't really care what you call Facebook, or any other site. But in this instance it would appear that for those that don't like it, the thread naming of it means we all must be idiots (twits) for using it!! <_< So in the same breath, I tend to find that the antiquated don't tend to move with the times. :o

 

Not really, I've called it twitface for a while now and before that I referred to mytwitface or twitmyface - a contraction of Twitter and Facebook or Twitter, Myspace and Facebook.

 

Nothing more sinister than that :)

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Unless it was meant as a conjunction of FB and Twitter........

 

Its a Facebook/Twitter combo and is not meant to be derisory.

 

I had overlooked that possibility, may be due to the fact I have never even looked at Twitter never mind have an account. Please accept my apologies. :)

No need to apologise, I understand how it may have been misconstrued :) .

On facebook I could have clicked 'like' for this post and you would have known I liked what you said without having to do another message.

But I wanted to!

Thanks for the illustration though. I’ve seen people write, 'Like' and often pondered its origins.

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Unless it was meant as a conjunction of FB and Twitter........

 

Its a Facebook/Twitter combo and is not meant to be derisory.

 

I had overlooked that possibility, may be due to the fact I have never even looked at Twitter never mind have an account. Please accept my apologies. :)

No need to apologise, I understand how it may have been misconstrued :) .

On facebook I could have clicked 'like' for this post and you would have known I liked what you said without having to do another message.

On our local Cotswold Caching forum you can do just that, click to 'like' posts. You can also set set status messages, add people as friends, and follow people etc if you like that sort of thing.. or don't, if you don't.

 

Maybe this forum here would be more popular if it had a bit of work done to it to bring it up to date a bit more? Maybe.

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So, would any of you surrender your allegiance to rival factions and return to the Dark Side if GS relaxed the moderating? May be if some Facebook-esque attributes were added too?

Would this ever happen and if so, would it be in GS's interests to have you all back or doesn't it matter?

I'm just curious you see. My concern is, we may lose this facility if we don't use it. Inevitable?

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So, would any of you surrender your allegiance to rival factions and return to the Dark Side if GS relaxed the moderating? May be if some Facebook-esque attributes were added too?

Would this ever happen and if so, would it be in GS's interests to have you all back or doesn't it matter?

I'm just curious you see. My concern is, we may lose this facility if we don't use it. Inevitable?

 

For me it was never about the moderating, it's about the critical mass, and I think that most people who use FB are doing it because they hang out there anyway for other stuff, so I think these forums are destined to be "quiet" for good.

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Ironically I've just come here from surfing through someone's FB account, although I don't really "do" FB. My brother set me up an account in order for me to play online Scrabble with him across the pond, but it didn't work. He remains my only friend (cue the violins) and through that account I can periodically see what he's up to. If he wants to know what I'm up to or vice versa, we have no end of means of other communication to use in order to do so. As do my real life, non-cyber friends...

 

I don't use FB beyond that primarily because I don't trust myself not to put something that someone might read whom I wouldn't know was doing so/want to read about it. Yes, I'm aware there are various privacy measures, but I don't trust myself to remember to apply them at the appropriate moment, so I'd rather not take myself down that path, in the same way that I don't have a credit card because I don't trust myself not to forget something I'd purchased a few weeks earlier and get into financial difficulties. Like most folk, perhaps I wouldn't, but I'd rather not put it to the test.

 

Another downside as I see it to FB is that if you're friends with one, you're friends with all, i.e., I have various spheres of my life such as caching, photography, music, etc. Whilst it's perfectly possible to overlap friends from all three categories, I wouldn't particularly want to. There may be a way round it, but I'm not aware of it, other than creating three different accounts.

 

So any Geochatter can come to me 2nd or 3rd hand. No doubt I'm missing out on all sorts of interesting chat, but I imagine I'm also missing out on an awful lot of fluff which surrounds it!

 

Keep up? Nah - I like life in the (comparatively) slow lane.

 

B)

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I vary rarely dip in here now, or the GAGB, just occasionally. Our Facebook group works well. We have almost 500 members now. We make sure that it has some of the old forum type stuff in it. Each new person is greeted personally and asked to give some information about their caching exploits, what they like, what they don't like etc just so that other members can get to know them. We also have files for the useful stuff that may be advantageous to reference back to in the future. All in all it works well. I think where Facebook falls down is if the pages aren't moderated well, that's when the dross floats to the top and the good stuff sinks.

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So, would any of you surrender your allegiance to rival factions and return to the Dark Side if GS relaxed the moderating? May be if some Facebook-esque attributes were added too?

For me it is solely to do with critical mass.

 

For any other application I can choose what features, user interface, etc. I like best. But for a discussion forum, pretty much everything is secondary to who else is using the forum.

 

I've remained on here even though I use FB, but this now puts me in contact with relatively few cachers. If everyone else migrates back here, and to the local forums, I can chuck FB. So for me it's not what I would do, but what everyone else does.

 

Rgds, Andy

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Ironically I've just come here from surfing through someone's FB account, although I don't really "do" FB. My brother set me up an account in order for me to play online Scrabble with him across the pond, but it didn't work. He remains my only friend (cue the violins) and through that account I can periodically see what he's up to. If he wants to know what I'm up to or vice versa, we have no end of means of other communication to use in order to do so. As do my real life, non-cyber friends...

 

I don't use FB beyond that primarily because I don't trust myself not to put something that someone might read whom I wouldn't know was doing so/want to read about it. Yes, I'm aware there are various privacy measures, but I don't trust myself to remember to apply them at the appropriate moment, so I'd rather not take myself down that path, in the same way that I don't have a credit card because I don't trust myself not to forget something I'd purchased a few weeks earlier and get into financial difficulties. Like most folk, perhaps I wouldn't, but I'd rather not put it to the test.

 

Another downside as I see it to FB is that if you're friends with one, you're friends with all, i.e., I have various spheres of my life such as caching, photography, music, etc. Whilst it's perfectly possible to overlap friends from all three categories, I wouldn't particularly want to. There may be a way round it, but I'm not aware of it, other than creating three different accounts.

 

So any Geochatter can come to me 2nd or 3rd hand. No doubt I'm missing out on all sorts of interesting chat, but I imagine I'm also missing out on an awful lot of fluff which surrounds it!

 

Keep up? Nah - I like life in the (comparatively) slow lane.

 

B)

 

I agree, I've looked at Facebook once or twice but don't have the time to devote my life to it like some people (and I include my daughter-in-law here!) I've never used Twitter. They're only a fad like Friends Reunited and mobile phones -- I do have one of the latter but strictly for my security when caching!

 

Instead I use forums that are specific to my interests, like geocaching, photography and cycling.

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I use Facebook all the time, but not to discuss caching. I find that it doesn't suit geocaching discussions at all. For instance: people tend to use their "real" names rather than geocaching names and so you haven't a clue who they are "John Smith has posted..." who? Also, discussions ramble on vaguely and then disappear, only to be replaced by the same discussion again a few days later. And...people start threads by saying "Great day out caching with Reginald Franks, Celia Briggs and Jack Smedworthy", along with a few photos. Very nice, but so what?

And further: you can join a group, but it might consist of just a few hundred people from roughly your part of the world (but not quite local). So you can't have a "nationwide" discussion and you may be unfamiliar with a lot of the caches and places being discussed. It's all very fragmented.

There are a lot of problems with FB!

 

If this forum had been modernised a couple of years ago it'd still be fairly lively; but it's still pretty much the same as ten years ago, with the same number of people posting. Not a good situation.

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I've been on Facebook for some years now. Most of my "friends" are 'cachers and always have been.

 

The main reason I did it was the camping aspect of 'caching that I met my now wife through.

 

For me, it's a good medium of being able to keep in contact with close and not-so-close friends on a day-to-day basis, not to mention family who seem to be moving away (brother in Australia, sister-in-law currently in South Africa and so on).

 

I try not to be one who shares their entire life (what I had for breakfast etc.) on it, but when working abroad, it's very settling to know that life is still going on for others.

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The thing I dont get though (because I have no knowledge and dont understand it), is why not just email friends and family?

Why is Facebook better than email? Is Facebook public or have I got that wrong?

facebook is public or can be private, it all depends on how you set up your account with the privacy settings.

 

To answer the former question, why do you come on here? When you can just email other Geocachers with your points and views!! It doesn't quite work does it?

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The thing I dont get though (because I have no knowledge and dont understand it), is why not just email friends and family?

Why is Facebook better than email? Is Facebook public or have I got that wrong?

facebook is public or can be private, it all depends on how you set up your account with the privacy settings.

 

To answer the former question, why do you come on here? When you can just email other Geocachers with your points and views!! It doesn't quite work does it?

Ahaaah, now I get yer and completely understand.

Thanks HH.

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@DrDick&Vick, it was a security flaw in FB which was one of the reasons I left it years ago, people who I definitely did not want to have certain details of mine obtained them. Some would say that was my fault for entering the info into the site, and I would agree with them mostly, but that's in the past.

 

Reason for resurrecting this old thread is this...

 

There is a wealth of information to be found in these forums including a section which is meant to be informative about UK and regional caching organisations. If you click from the main pages of geocaching.com and select 'Local Organisations' you are taken to a thread on these main forums with a list of countries. From there any new member or anyone who wants to know more about caching in the UK can click on our country and are taken to this sticky thread.

 

The thread is now nearly a 150 posts long. There are various groups mentioned which no longer exist. It would be great if that thread could be tidied up by someone, can the moderators do this? Ideally so that the first post is nice and tidy with a list of links to the various groups in the UK similar to the GAGB site list, and kept up together as people list new groups, and report old group deletions.

 

Whatever my views on FB, and I do feel I am in the minority so will not harp on about them too much, the fact is that FB is a separate entity to geocaching.com. It is a social media platform. Net history has shown that all social media platforms eventually decline. A lot of caching talk has moved to FB, I have seen that through other's accounts, but the younger generation are pulling away from the platform and moving to other newer (cooler) ones, I am seeing this through my own children and their friends and recent reports on the net are saying the same thing. Wherever the main talk currently is at, I feel this forum, as it is still the place Groundspeak directs people to for info, is the main hub and should be clearly laid out. There is no point directing a teenager about to hide their first cache to a FB group for help when they've recently abandoned the platform for another.

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I truly envy all the people who have the time to spare engaging in these social media sites. Personally, I absolutely do not have this luxury and even if I did, I would spend it visiting friends/relatives or talking to them on the phone. I may be in the minority but Im vastly content with my arguably antediluvian methods of communicating with people. This forum is as close to social networking as it gets for me. Horses for courses and all that.

Edited by thehoomer
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I use Facebook every day. I don't see why people don't...it opens up lines of communication that previously were too tedious and awkward to pursue and allows a great increase in social interaction.

 

I've met most of my Facebook friends, most of whom I didn't know at all two years ago. It's fantastic that like-minded people can find each other so easily and be able to organise things so quickly. I've broadened my interests and participated in many events that I wouldn't have even dreamed of in the past. An event can be arranged at the drop of a hat (not necessarily a geocaching one!). In the old days (pre 2010) you'd have had to seek out a club or group and attend regular meetings. Now you can still do that but there's no need, you can do ten times as much without all the formality.

 

Although I have a separate geocaching-related account I hardly use it for geocaching discussions however; it just doesn't work for me in that context for reasons mentioned above. And as I'm also not a great social cacher I rarely post under that account. Most of my Facebook activity is non-Geocaching.

Edited by Happy Humphrey
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My own views aside, a quick answer for you HH on "I don't see why people don't..." in regards to an increasing amount of younger people it is because it is not "ccol" anymore, or actually should I be saying "sick" now? Instagram, Vine, Twitter, and other newer social media platforms like Pheed are cool... at the moment. One net report I read quoted a teenager saying about FB "It's like the mom and dad version of Instagram and Twitter".

 

I am happy for those who still use FB and get what they want out of it. I don't. I am not anti-social media, far from it. I do use Instagram, Twitter and Pheed in connection with the CC forum. I also use CafeFace.com. And hey, I also have a life :P

 

What I wanted to get across in my long last post was:

- FB is not Groundspeak's, this forum is, and here is where we are directed to from Geocaching.com when looking for a Local Organisation to connect to.

 

- Please could the first post in the Geocaching Organisations in the UK sticky thread be tidied up, and kept up together, to make it clear where to point people so they do not have to trawl though many posts to find a still existing active group. It can list FB groups if we like, the remaining few forums too, but also the newer social media places teens hang out. In it's current state the thread is not very useful.

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My own views aside, a quick answer for you HH on "I don't see why people don't..." in regards to an increasing amount of younger people it is because it is not "ccol" anymore, or actually should I be saying "sick" now? Instagram, Vine, Twitter, and other newer social media platforms like Pheed are cool... at the moment. One net report I read quoted a teenager saying about FB "It's like the mom and dad version of Instagram and Twitter".

Agreed - stuff like this moves on on the internets. It appears permanent but there's not yet been an example of social media which has stuck around. FB might - but it's a pretty hefty might.

 

There are also significant concerns wrt data privacy and so on with FB that will keep some people off of it. Tbh I also find communication on it is horrible and very difficult to keep track of. Web forums (or, heck, even usenet...) generally lead to "better" communication as well ime.

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Call me a luddite. I find FB to much hassle to get into. Our local GC group, HAVOC, had a website but went to FB. I have checked it out and its mostly gossip. At least with forums like this I can easy find my way here to see whats happening in your neck of the woods.

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My own views aside, a quick answer for you HH on "I don't see why people don't..." in regards to an increasing amount of younger people it is because it is not "ccol" anymore, or actually should I be saying "sick" now? Instagram, Vine, Twitter, and other newer social media platforms like Pheed are cool... at the moment. One net report I read quoted a teenager saying about FB "It's like the mom and dad version of Instagram and Twitter".

Agreed - stuff like this moves on on the internets. It appears permanent but there's not yet been an example of social media which has stuck around. FB might - but it's a pretty hefty might.

 

There are also significant concerns wrt data privacy and so on with FB that will keep some people off of it. Tbh I also find communication on it is horrible and very difficult to keep track of. Web forums (or, heck, even usenet...) generally lead to "better" communication as well ime.

It may be uncool to use FB but of course the vast majority of people on there are not going to be interested in whether it's cool or not. It does a job, and it's dead easy to keep in touch with people (I don't know what you mean about "communication on it is horrible and very difficult to keep track", it could hardly be easier). I don't understand the data privacy issues much either. If stuff is private then you're not obliged to share it on Facebook as far as I can see. You don't even have to give your name. This forum has exactly the same data privacy issues, if any.

 

OK, FB is old and established and used by a lot of older people so some people are going to reject it because of that, but the thing is that so many people use it that there's no real rival at the moment. I don't Tweet or Pheed so I'm not sure how easy it is to set up an event or post a gallery of photos on there so I can't say whether they are better.

 

From a "serious" discussion point of view Facebook is hopeless so it's not an either forum or Facebook question. Both have their place.

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In my local area, there is only one other person who posts on the forums, the rest are on facebook.

There are actually quite a few of us who post here... (and quite a few more who lurk)

So, would any of you surrender your allegiance to rival factions and return to the Dark Side if GS relaxed the moderating? May be if some Facebook-esque attributes were added too?

Would this ever happen and if so, would it be in GS's interests to have you all back or doesn't it matter?

I'm just curious you see. My concern is, we may lose this facility if we don't use it. Inevitable?

The moderation is strict here (and possibly overly so sometimes) but it has good and bad points. I expect the maintenance of similar-topics-on-one-thread type of moderation appeals to the ODC-ness which may be present in some cachers... ;)

 

On the one hand, moderation DOES stifle spontaneity and impulsiveness in some but helps to keep this a civil & generally courteous environment which I quite like. You don't always get that on facebook :(. Equally, the sort of censorship which doesn't allow the AAND-name-which-shall-not-be-mentioned for example, reminds us that this a BUSINESS with corporate values (and perhaps annoys us) but also makes sure we don't have soft porn on here because some people think it's funny. I recently left a humourous caching facebook group because of the proliferation of soft porn which the admins thought was acceptable for a family game and weren't policing or deleting.

 

I'm a 'mainly posts on facebook now' cacher simply because that's where I'll get the fastest response to a question which I often feel is urgent to me. As others have said, it's where a lot of cachers are. However I only have my facebook account for geocaching. I too dislike supplying the internet with all my personal details. My facebook name is my geocaching name and only the bare minimum of personal info is included.

 

I don't think there's any risk of losing this forum. It can do things facebook can't like bring technical issues direct to Groundspeak's attention. And if I'm honest, it feels to me (for whatever flawed reasons I have) that feedback given here seem to be more considered than that which you get on facebook. It's the place I come for answers to complicated stuff, whereas facebook is where you go if you just want quick yes or no answers - or people to "like" your opinion.

Edited by mellers
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However I only have my facebook account for geocaching. I too dislike supplying the internet with all my personal details. My facebook name is my geocaching name and only the bare minimum of personal info is included.

I'm often told this, but it baffles me.

How come I set up my Facebook account(s) without any personal information? I was never asked to supply any of my personal details, let alone ALL of them!

 

The problems with this forum have been grumbled about for years and Groundspeak did nothing about them, so no surprise that they lost out when more flexible challengers arrived on the scene. Facebook has its problems too, not least its American moral attitudes; but you try mentioning a rival product on there, or posting something irrelevant to the thread, and what happens? Nothing. Here you're likely to be censored, censured or banned.

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