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Helping you fellow cachers and clearing up rubbish


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OK, flak jacket on but I thought I'd canvas opinions on an idea. A way to help other cachers and to get rid of geolitter.

 

A scenario for you:

 

You are caching local to yourself, you find a container that is broken or soaking wet with no chance of being able to affect a repair in the field. When you look online the owner hasn't logged on in a good while.

Do you just log a needs maintenance and go on your way or..

 

As an alternative, do you log a needs maintenance and take the cache home where you can clean/dry/replace the container and message the cache owner to let them know that you're happy to either replace it or get it to them? (this is assuming that you don't have a suitable amount of cleaning materials/ log books and replacement container with you)

Should the cache owner be one of the many that no longer caches you are able to dispose of the container as and when the reviewer decides to archive the cache.

 

This is nothing to do with being cache police, rather helping out fellow cachers and the community as a whole. Saving an extra journey by the cache owner and saving discarded boxes from being left forever in situ.

 

The alternative would appear that you post a needs maintenance, a month later someone else does similar...a couple of months later someone gets round to posting a needs archive...a couple of weeks later the reviewer gives up trying to get a reply from the CO and archives it. Then no one is aware that there is a container left littering.

 

I'm sure there will be those that say that such behaviour might risk prosecution for theft, though the act of contacting the owner immediately stops that. I'm also sure that there are some that will vehemently disapprove.

 

I have done this, it saved the cache owner from having to go out into the field to do what I could do immediately, I've then subsequently replaced the repaired box and again saved the owner from a trip...but in one instance I saved there being geolitter as the owner no longer cached.

 

Obviously this is only something I would ever consider for a cache local to myself.

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I regularly look at the caches in my area by thrawling my finds list. And if I come near any that have been archived, I simply drop by and see if there is any geolitter left.

 

I would not take a cache with me for maintenance for the simple reason that it would interfere with the next finder.

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It's something I am see more and more is caches being placed and the owner gives up and leaves the container in place to rot away.

One of the reasons people give to land owners so they can place caches is CITO.

If a land owner looked at the cache pages they would see red spanners on a lot of caches and give it a second thought.

There are caches that need to be removed but people keep logging them (write your name on a piece of paper and put in cache).

Short of taking someones abandoned worn out container home and binning it and putting a NA on it , I really don't know.

Rubbish I do try and remove though.

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One thing I'd really like is a facility to mark an archived cache as no longer there, coupled with a means of looking for local archived caches that apparently are still there.

 

When a cache is archived because it's clearly gone missing it can be marked as missing right away; if someone stops caching and their hides get archived for being manky and mouldy it would be nice to be able to find them with a view to disposing of them.

 

It should be pretty easy to change the terms and conditions to explicitly cater for abandoned caches being removed if the owner doesn't take any of the many chances afforded them to recover their property before destruction.

 

Although the cache technically belongs to the CO it would be interesting to know the specifics of the law regarding personal property being abandoned, and at what point it can be lawfully considered "abandoned" and therefore fair game to be thrown in the nearest bin.

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I regularly look at the caches in my area by thrawling my finds list. And if I come near any that have been archived, I simply drop by and see if there is any geolitter left.

 

I would not take a cache with me for maintenance for the simple reason that it would interfere with the next finder.

 

Surely better for the next finder to find a dry well maintained cache?

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One thing I'd really like is a facility to mark an archived cache as no longer there, coupled with a means of looking for local archived caches that apparently are still there.

 

When a cache is archived because it's clearly gone missing it can be marked as missing right away; if someone stops caching and their hides get archived for being manky and mouldy it would be nice to be able to find them with a view to disposing of them.

 

It should be pretty easy to change the terms and conditions to explicitly cater for abandoned caches being removed if the owner doesn't take any of the many chances afforded them to recover their property before destruction.

 

Although the cache technically belongs to the CO it would be interesting to know the specifics of the law regarding personal property being abandoned, and at what point it can be lawfully considered "abandoned" and therefore fair game to be thrown in the nearest bin.

 

Theft requires you to assume ownership of the property, to have removed the item dishonestly and to have made no attempt at contacting the rightful owner to get the property back to them.

 

Whilst the system update you suggest doesn't exist I just thought it might be an idea to adopt this approach, helps maintain active caches and remove those that are abandoned.

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One thing I'd really like is a facility to mark an archived cache as no longer there, coupled with a means of looking for local archived caches that apparently are still there.

 

When a cache is archived because it's clearly gone missing it can be marked as missing right away; if someone stops caching and their hides get archived for being manky and mouldy it would be nice to be able to find them with a view to disposing of them.

 

It should be pretty easy to change the terms and conditions to explicitly cater for abandoned caches being removed if the owner doesn't take any of the many chances afforded them to recover their property before destruction.

 

Although the cache technically belongs to the CO it would be interesting to know the specifics of the law regarding personal property being abandoned, and at what point it can be lawfully considered "abandoned" and therefore fair game to be thrown in the nearest bin.

 

Now there's a good idea

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I regularly look at the caches in my area by thrawling my finds list. And if I come near any that have been archived, I simply drop by and see if there is any geolitter left.

 

I would not take a cache with me for maintenance for the simple reason that it would interfere with the next finder.

 

Surely better for the next finder to find a dry well maintained cache?

 

That assumes the next finder doesn't come by until after the cache has been nurtured and returned to its hidey hole.

 

If you take a cache home and then get delayed in returning it there's no way of knowing how many people might hunt for it in the meantime, possibly not having read your log that says "the cache isn't there, I took it home for some TLC".

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I regularly look at the caches in my area by thrawling my finds list. And if I come near any that have been archived, I simply drop by and see if there is any geolitter left.

 

I would not take a cache with me for maintenance for the simple reason that it would interfere with the next finder.

 

Surely better for the next finder to find a dry well maintained cache?

 

That assumes the next finder doesn't come by until after the cache has been nurtured and returned to its hidey hole.

 

If you take a cache home and then get delayed in returning it there's no way of knowing how many people might hunt for it in the meantime, possibly not having read your log that says "the cache isn't there, I took it home for some TLC".

 

But I would also have posted a needs maintenance and the only reason that the cache wouldn't have been temporarily archived by the owner would be that they no longer cache or monitor their caches...

Plus we are talking about caches which are not repairable in the field not just a little bit damp.

Edited by nobby.nobbs
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This idea isn't without it's risks and we are talking about ones that will need to be seriously repaired or replaced.

 

The only other option would be to have your idea or a few volunteers to help the reviewers by being willing to go out to collect caches that have been archived. Otherwise we know as a hobby, that we're littering the countryside.

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There's another thread going on where a cacher has turned a cache into his goodbye to Geocaching.com.

He's now going to play on another (similar) site.

 

With caches crosslisted by many, hopefully those grabbing what they think are archived hides check on other cache sites first.

 

Caches that don't belong to you should not be taken home for repair.

I leave real early in the morning to play. I do read cache pages.

It wouldn't be fair to me (usually travel 50+ miles) or anyone else to now have to claim a DNF on a cache that should have been there, because it was taken my another sometime during the day.

- I know how to wipe a cache out and replace a log too.

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This idea isn't without it's risks and we are talking about ones that will need to be seriously repaired or replaced.

 

The only other option would be to have your idea or a few volunteers to help the reviewers by being willing to go out to collect caches that have been archived. Otherwise we know as a hobby, that we're littering the countryside.

 

That would be much easier if there were some way to spot archived caches that were most likely still in place even if in an unpleasant state. But as soon as a cache is archived it disappears from all PQs, so short of people taking proactive steps to look through their list of finds to spot the archived ones, then look through those to figure which ones are still in place it's hard to see how any cache that's archived but still present can be identified.

 

It's even harder to tell whether a cache that is archived but still present is still listed on other listing sites, in which case recovering and disposing of it is definitely not an appropriate course of action.

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It's even harder to tell whether a cache that is archived but still present is still listed on other listing sites, in which case recovering and disposing of it is definitely not an appropriate course of action.

 

Which is exactly why the idea of volunteers 'helping out reviewers' would never fly.

 

From a legal POV the cache remains the property and responsibility of the CO - even after it has been abandoned and left to rot.

 

If another cacher even with the very best of intentions goes and removes the rubbish they do so without any endorsement or support from GS or its agents.

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I would only ever remove a cache if I was confident that I could commit to a repair which would retain as many of the original components as possible and also restore the cache to the site within a few hours.

This scenario has only ever materialised once in 7 years.

The cache in question was 11 years old, in a great location and was one of our first finds so we felt it was important to preserve and protect it. After a few NM's were posted, we were fearful that sooner or later, someone would post a NA and with no owner intervention probable, that would’ve been the end of the cache. It was/is rarely visited so we felt safe to remove the cache for a few hours.

Prior to (and during) the NM’s being posted on the cache, we had been trying to adopt it from the owner and eventually we were successful; the cache is now in our care.

 

I have posted several NA’s on caches but now always visit the location shortly after archival, to attempt to retrieve the litter. I may not have endorsement or support from GS or its agents but I do have the support from my concience and gratitude of nature. I'll take the risk.

 

Personally, unless the cache is historically important or unique in some other way (providing geo-litter is removed), I would allow the unloved be lain to rest in order for new life to thrive.

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It's even harder to tell whether a cache that is archived but still present is still listed on other listing sites, in which case recovering and disposing of it is definitely not an appropriate course of action.

 

Which is exactly why the idea of volunteers 'helping out reviewers' would never fly.

 

From a legal POV the cache remains the property and responsibility of the CO - even after it has been abandoned and left to rot.

 

If another cacher even with the very best of intentions goes and removes the rubbish they do so without any endorsement or support from GS or its agents.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I always thought that there is a legal concept of property being considered to be abandoned and therefore in a state where removing it and disposing of it would not be unlawful. I'm just not sure what criteria would need to be met for property to be considered abandoned as opposed to left behind for later retrieval.

 

Presumably litter blowing in the street is considered abandoned property and fair game to be removed and destroyed. What legal definition differentiates between something like a sandwich box under a fallen tree and something like an empty beer bottle under a fallen tree could be interesting.

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I may not have endorsement or support from GS or its agents but I do have the support from my concience and gratitude of nature. I'll take the risk.

 

Me too :)

 

If I remove geolitter I always post a note log to the cache stating what I've done and advising the owner that I will keep everything for one month so that they have the opportunity to contact me and get back their property from me. If I hear nothing, I dispose of it in a responsible manner.

 

So far nobody has ever asked for their geolitter back although I've probably only done this two or three times.

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It's even harder to tell whether a cache that is archived but still present is still listed on other listing sites, in which case recovering and disposing of it is definitely not an appropriate course of action.

 

Which is exactly why the idea of volunteers 'helping out reviewers' would never fly.

 

From a legal POV the cache remains the property and responsibility of the CO - even after it has been abandoned and left to rot.

 

If another cacher even with the very best of intentions goes and removes the rubbish they do so without any endorsement or support from GS or its agents.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I always thought that there is a legal concept of property being considered to be abandoned and therefore in a state where removing it and disposing of it would not be unlawful. I'm just not sure what criteria would need to be met for property to be considered abandoned as opposed to left behind for later retrieval.

 

Presumably litter blowing in the street is considered abandoned property and fair game to be removed and destroyed. What legal definition differentiates between something like a sandwich box under a fallen tree and something like an empty beer bottle under a fallen tree could be interesting.

When I hide a cache in the woods, it was placed for this hobby and will be removed when it no longer serves it's purpose.

If a non-cacher finds it and removes it, it'll tick me off a bit, but they aren't playing the game. Doesn't really matter if they know of it.

If a cacher, knowing of the game and recognizing the container as a cache in play removes it, they would be intentionally depriving me of my property.

- I would consider that theft.

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It's even harder to tell whether a cache that is archived but still present is still listed on other listing sites, in which case recovering and disposing of it is definitely not an appropriate course of action.

 

Which is exactly why the idea of volunteers 'helping out reviewers' would never fly.

 

From a legal POV the cache remains the property and responsibility of the CO - even after it has been abandoned and left to rot.

 

If another cacher even with the very best of intentions goes and removes the rubbish they do so without any endorsement or support from GS or its agents.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I always thought that there is a legal concept of property being considered to be abandoned and therefore in a state where removing it and disposing of it would not be unlawful. I'm just not sure what criteria would need to be met for property to be considered abandoned as opposed to left behind for later retrieval.

 

Presumably litter blowing in the street is considered abandoned property and fair game to be removed and destroyed. What legal definition differentiates between something like a sandwich box under a fallen tree and something like an empty beer bottle under a fallen tree could be interesting.

When I hide a cache in the woods, it was placed for this hobby and will be removed when it no longer serves it's purpose.

If a non-cacher finds it and removes it, it'll tick me off a bit, but they aren't playing the game. Doesn't really matter if they know of it.

If a cacher, knowing of the game and recognizing the container as a cache in play removes it, they would be intentionally depriving me of my property.

- I would consider that theft.

You wouldn't consider it as theft if you had left the game months ago and moved onto another hobby. You wouldn't know or care that someone had removed your container. What we are talking about here is caches which have fallen into disrepair or are missing altogether and the CO hasn't logged on, hasn't posted any updates or notes, has moved on to scuba diving, is too ill or has other commitments to look after the caches they placed. The other (and not totally exhaustive) reason.....'Geo what'? 'Oh yeah, I remember that, I found a plastic box once and then went and threw one out myself. Dunno what ever happened to it, don't care really, I'm too busy counting slugs now'.

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It's even harder to tell whether a cache that is archived but still present is still listed on other listing sites, in which case recovering and disposing of it is definitely not an appropriate course of action.

 

Which is exactly why the idea of volunteers 'helping out reviewers' would never fly.

 

From a legal POV the cache remains the property and responsibility of the CO - even after it has been abandoned and left to rot.

 

If another cacher even with the very best of intentions goes and removes the rubbish they do so without any endorsement or support from GS or its agents.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I always thought that there is a legal concept of property being considered to be abandoned and therefore in a state where removing it and disposing of it would not be unlawful. I'm just not sure what criteria would need to be met for property to be considered abandoned as opposed to left behind for later retrieval.

 

Presumably litter blowing in the street is considered abandoned property and fair game to be removed and destroyed. What legal definition differentiates between something like a sandwich box under a fallen tree and something like an empty beer bottle under a fallen tree could be interesting.

When I hide a cache in the woods, it was placed for this hobby and will be removed when it no longer serves it's purpose.

If a non-cacher finds it and removes it, it'll tick me off a bit, but they aren't playing the game. Doesn't really matter if they know of it.

If a cacher, knowing of the game and recognizing the container as a cache in play removes it, they would be intentionally depriving me of my property.

- I would consider that theft.

 

Not wishing to be rude here, but if it comes to removing a box that seems to have been abandoned by the person who put it there it's of more concern whether the law would consider to be theft or not.

 

We could discuss theoretical what-ifs all day (e.g. what if a tramp were to return a couple of days later for the half-inch of beer he left in the bottle that was under the dead tree - would the litter pickers be guilty of stealing from him if they had thrown his bottle away?), but without a legal definition of when property is considered abandoned it's just a load of uninformed opinions (and to be clear, I'm not a lawyer so my opinion is no more informed than anyone else's).

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It's even harder to tell whether a cache that is archived but still present is still listed on other listing sites, in which case recovering and disposing of it is definitely not an appropriate course of action.

 

Which is exactly why the idea of volunteers 'helping out reviewers' would never fly.

 

From a legal POV the cache remains the property and responsibility of the CO - even after it has been abandoned and left to rot.

 

If another cacher even with the very best of intentions goes and removes the rubbish they do so without any endorsement or support from GS or its agents.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I always thought that there is a legal concept of property being considered to be abandoned and therefore in a state where removing it and disposing of it would not be unlawful. I'm just not sure what criteria would need to be met for property to be considered abandoned as opposed to left behind for later retrieval.

 

Presumably litter blowing in the street is considered abandoned property and fair game to be removed and destroyed. What legal definition differentiates between something like a sandwich box under a fallen tree and something like an empty beer bottle under a fallen tree could be interesting.

When I hide a cache in the woods, it was placed for this hobby and will be removed when it no longer serves it's purpose.

If a non-cacher finds it and removes it, it'll tick me off a bit, but they aren't playing the game. Doesn't really matter if they know of it.

If a cacher, knowing of the game and recognizing the container as a cache in play removes it, they would be intentionally depriving me of my property.

- I would consider that theft.

 

Not wishing to be rude here, but if it comes to removing a box that seems to have been abandoned by the person who put it there it's of more concern whether the law would consider to be theft or not.

 

We could discuss theoretical what-ifs all day (e.g. what if a tramp were to return a couple of days later for the half-inch of beer he left in the bottle that was under the dead tree - would the litter pickers be guilty of stealing from him if they had thrown his bottle away?), but without a legal definition of when property is considered abandoned it's just a load of uninformed opinions (and to be clear, I'm not a lawyer so my opinion is no more informed than anyone else's).

 

The definition of theft:dishonestly obtaining property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them.

More pertinent in this case is theft by finding which is a form of theft.

 

However, if you make reasonable attempts to contact the owner to return the property you are not assuming ownership. Reasonable attempts would be message via the website where the item is listed. Or if you're really concerned just take the item to the local police station and hand it in explaining the situation. You have then no chance of arrest.

 

There is no offence if you attempt to contact the owner and get no joy.

 

The likelihood of the police arresting you over the removal of a couple of pounds worth of broken plastic box is very slight, they tend to have better things to do.

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The definition of theft:dishonestly obtaining property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them.

More pertinent in this case is theft by finding which is a form of theft.

 

However, if you make reasonable attempts to contact the owner to return the property you are not assuming ownership. Reasonable attempts would be message via the website where the item is listed. Or if you're really concerned just take the item to the local police station and hand it in explaining the situation. You have then no chance of arrest.

 

There is no offence if you attempt to contact the owner and get no joy.

 

The likelihood of the police arresting you over the removal of a couple of pounds worth of broken plastic box is very slight, they tend to have better things to do.

 

OK, so when people talk about wanting to take action against people to destroy their caches (using complaints to the police etc) how do the police legally differentiate between an apparently abandoned sandwich box under a dead tree and an apparently abandoned beer bottle under a dead tree?

 

I agree the police are unlikely to spend too much time investigating the theft of a sandwich box containing a few McFluffytoys that the owner deliberately left in a public place hoping nobody would find it, but how does "permanently depriving" the owner change between the owner of the sandwich box and the owner of the beer bottle? I know it's arguably a silly example but it seems unlikely that a council's litter picking crew is expected to make any attempt at all to contact the owners of the assorted beer bottles, crushed cans, bike wheels etc that they dredge out of the river.

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The definition of theft:dishonestly obtaining property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them.

More pertinent in this case is theft by finding which is a form of theft.

 

However, if you make reasonable attempts to contact the owner to return the property you are not assuming ownership. Reasonable attempts would be message via the website where the item is listed. Or if you're really concerned just take the item to the local police station and hand it in explaining the situation. You have then no chance of arrest.

 

There is no offence if you attempt to contact the owner and get no joy.

 

The likelihood of the police arresting you over the removal of a couple of pounds worth of broken plastic box is very slight, they tend to have better things to do.

 

OK, so when people talk about wanting to take action against people to destroy their caches (using complaints to the police etc) how do the police legally differentiate between an apparently abandoned sandwich box under a dead tree and an apparently abandoned beer bottle under a dead tree?

 

I agree the police are unlikely to spend too much time investigating the theft of a sandwich box containing a few McFluffytoys that the owner deliberately left in a public place hoping nobody would find it, but how does "permanently depriving" the owner change between the owner of the sandwich box and the owner of the beer bottle? I know it's arguably a silly example but it seems unlikely that a council's litter picking crew is expected to make any attempt at all to contact the owners of the assorted beer bottles, crushed cans, bike wheels etc that they dredge out of the river.

 

Common sense is the usual method employed. Certainly when I was in that role that's what I used.

 

It's not theft. They did not "dishonestly appropriate" it might be considered theft by finding in which case all you need to do is take reasonable steps to contact the owner. Common sense then applies again. An expensive container full of coins would require you to make emails or more sensibly just to release them in another cache.

 

Just in case I didn't make it clear. I'm talking about containers that are knackered not just a bit damp or just where someone no longer caches.

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The definition of theft:dishonestly obtaining property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them.

More pertinent in this case is theft by finding which is a form of theft.

 

However, if you make reasonable attempts to contact the owner to return the property you are not assuming ownership. Reasonable attempts would be message via the website where the item is listed. Or if you're really concerned just take the item to the local police station and hand it in explaining the situation. You have then no chance of arrest.

 

There is no offence if you attempt to contact the owner and get no joy.

 

The likelihood of the police arresting you over the removal of a couple of pounds worth of broken plastic box is very slight, they tend to have better things to do.

 

OK, so when people talk about wanting to take action against people to destroy their caches (using complaints to the police etc) how do the police legally differentiate between an apparently abandoned sandwich box under a dead tree and an apparently abandoned beer bottle under a dead tree?

 

I agree the police are unlikely to spend too much time investigating the theft of a sandwich box containing a few McFluffytoys that the owner deliberately left in a public place hoping nobody would find it, but how does "permanently depriving" the owner change between the owner of the sandwich box and the owner of the beer bottle? I know it's arguably a silly example but it seems unlikely that a council's litter picking crew is expected to make any attempt at all to contact the owners of the assorted beer bottles, crushed cans, bike wheels etc that they dredge out of the river.

 

Common sense is the usual method employed. Certainly when I was in that role that's what I used.

 

It's not theft. They did not "dishonestly appropriate" it might be considered theft by finding in which case all you need to do is take reasonable steps to contact the owner. Common sense then applies again. An expensive container full of coins would require you to make emails or more sensibly just to release them in another cache.

 

Just in case I didn't make it clear. I'm talking about containers that are knackered not just a bit damp or just where someone no longer caches.

 

Common sense seems like a reasonable standard, although by the same standard of common sense a damp sandwich box with some damp McFluffytoys in it would seem to have about the same value to a random person finding it as a beer bottle a third full of an unknown liquid. Hence, if someone found it and threw it in the rubbish bin thinking it was rubbish it would be hard to get any charges to stick. As you say it's a totally different league to finding a wallet stuffed with £20 notes or some such.

 

From a cacher's perspective it's reasonable to say we might move stuff to another cache but from the perspective of a non-cacher it might seem eminently reasonable to figure it was left over from a child's game, has been spoiled by the weather, so can go in the rubbish.

 

Your distinction between caches that are knackered and caches that are a bit damp is great but if we're talking about possible legal implications the differentiation could be important, otherwise it just becomes another vague term like "reasonable force" or "due care and attention". Personally if I leave anything in a cache I regard it as a mere act of curiosity to find out where it ends up and my view is that anyone who isn't willing to regard a travel bug as the equivalent of a £10 note made into a paper plane just to see where it ends up shouldn't be releasing them, and anyone who isn't willing to regard their cache as a transient game piece that will hopefully last a long time but may be trashed by the local oiks within a week shouldn't hide it in the first place.

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Ok just to clarify.

 

We're talking about a cache container which has broken local to yourself.

Who exactly is going to report you for theft? The cache owner who hasn't logged on in years and doesn't respond to your message? Or the cache owner who responds to your message, in which case it's not theft as you've contacted the owner to either get it to them or confirm they want you to replace with a new box.

 

In the first case you would obviously get a TB or coin moving and out of a broken box then throw away the container once the reviewer gives up trying to get the owner to respond.

 

In The second you get the box to the owner or, if you're able to and they ask you, you can replace the damaged box.

 

There is no theft. You're CITOing and improving the game and country.

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Does anybody seriously believe that a cache owner is going to wander into the the local cop-shop and report the loss of... or possible theft of... a cracked 35mm film pot containing a few grammes of soggy paper and a pencil stub with no point that he'd deliberately left in a hole at the base of a dead tree in the middle of a wood?

Come on, people... this is the REAL world. If it's rubbish, get rid of it!

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Does anybody seriously believe that a cache owner is going to wander into the the local cop-shop and report the loss of... or possible theft of... a cracked 35mm film pot containing a few grammes of soggy paper and a pencil stub with no point that he'd deliberately left in a hole at the base of a dead tree in the middle of a wood?

Come on, people... this is the REAL world. If it's rubbish, get rid of it!

 

The voice of reason B)

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Ok just to clarify.

 

We're talking about a cache container which has broken local to yourself.

Who exactly is going to report you for theft? The cache owner who hasn't logged on in years and doesn't respond to your message? Or the cache owner who responds to your message, in which case it's not theft as you've contacted the owner to either get it to them or confirm they want you to replace with a new box.

 

In the first case you would obviously get a TB or coin moving and out of a broken box then throw away the container once the reviewer gives up trying to get the owner to respond.

 

In The second you get the box to the owner or, if you're able to and they ask you, you can replace the damaged box.

 

There is no theft. You're CITOing and improving the game and country.

 

Does anybody seriously believe that a cache owner is going to wander into the the local cop-shop and report the loss of... or possible theft of... a cracked 35mm film pot containing a few grammes of soggy paper and a pencil stub with no point that he'd deliberately left in a hole at the base of a dead tree in the middle of a wood?

Come on, people... this is the REAL world. If it's rubbish, get rid of it!

 

This is exactly what I'd call the common sense approach, if the sandwich box you left under a tree is stolen/trashed/eaten by wild dogs/whatever it's the risk you take when you leave it there.

 

Others seem to disagree, as described in the sticky at the top of the forum (link) where the advice includes, among other things, "If you find this person (or persons) has stolen either your cache or your trackable from a cache you should contact your local police and report it as a theft. Explain what geocaching is and that the cache container/trackable is your personal property and make sure you get a crime report reference number."

 

I really struggle to see how it's anything other than a waste of police time to report the theft of a sandwich box under a dead tree however much the people responsible might be spoiling our fun. If the cache container is broken resulting in the contents getting wet and mouldy then it's even more of a waste of time.

 

That said if police advice is that removal of a cache container is considered to be theft (as the sticky thread says) on the basis it was placed there deliberately rather than abandoned, it does raise the question of when a deliberately placed container can be considered to be abandoned and removed without legal ramifications.

 

I think it's silly that the police are involved in what seems to me to be nothing more than a squabble between rival groups, so I'd personally be disinclined to make a public statement that I'd removed and destroyed what could be identified as someone else's private property whatever the state of it.

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Does anybody seriously believe that a cache owner is going to wander into the the local cop-shop and report the loss of... or possible theft of... a cracked 35mm film pot containing a few grammes of soggy paper and a pencil stub with no point that he'd deliberately left in a hole at the base of a dead tree in the middle of a wood?

Come on, people... this is the REAL world. If it's rubbish, get rid of it!

It has happened before.

The guy had a four-year history of cache theft, in Towns and even quite a few "in the wood".

It doesn't matter what condition it's in. If it's not yours and you take it, it's theft.

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If it's not yours and you take it, it's theft.

Theft Act 1968.

 

A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

 

A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest:

 

a ) if he appropriates the property in the belief that he has in law the right to deprive the other of it, on behalf of himself or of a third person; or

b ) if he appropriates the property in the belief that he would have the other’s consent if the other knew of the appropriation and the circumstances of it; or

c ) (except where the property came to him as trustee or personal representative) if he appropriates the property in the belief that the person to whom the property belongs cannot be discovered by taking reasonable steps.

 

So it's not theft to take something, clean it up and replace it, and it's not theft to dispose of rubbish if you think the owner can't reasonably be traced, and not if you have made a genuine attempt to contact the owner.

 

I really can't understand why people are arguing against using common sense. In the circumstances described it is just rubbish. Treat it like any other rubbish.

 

Rgds, Andy

Edited by Amberel
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If it's not yours and you take it, it's theft.

Theft Act 1968.

 

A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

 

A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest:

 

a ) if he appropriates the property in the belief that he has in law the right to deprive the other of it, on behalf of himself or of a third person; or

b ) if he appropriates the property in the belief that he would have the other’s consent if the other knew of the appropriation and the circumstances of it; or

c ) (except where the property came to him as trustee or personal representative) if he appropriates the property in the belief that the person to whom the property belongs cannot be discovered by taking reasonable steps.

 

So it's not theft to take something, clean it up and replace it, and it's not theft to dispose of rubbish if you think the owner can't reasonably be traced, and not if you have made a genuine attempt to contact the owner.

 

I really can't understand why people are arguing against using common sense. In the circumstances described it is just rubbish. Treat it like any other rubbish.

 

Rgds, Andy

 

Think that clears that up nicely - thanks for that B)

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Ok just to clarify.

 

We're talking about a cache container which has broken local to yourself.

Who exactly is going to report you for theft? The cache owner who hasn't logged on in years and doesn't respond to your message? Or the cache owner who responds to your message, in which case it's not theft as you've contacted the owner to either get it to them or confirm they want you to replace with a new box.

 

In the first case you would obviously get a TB or coin moving and out of a broken box then throw away the container once the reviewer gives up trying to get the owner to respond.

 

In The second you get the box to the owner or, if you're able to and they ask you, you can replace the damaged box.

 

There is no theft. You're CITOing and improving the game and country.

 

Does anybody seriously believe that a cache owner is going to wander into the the local cop-shop and report the loss of... or possible theft of... a cracked 35mm film pot containing a few grammes of soggy paper and a pencil stub with no point that he'd deliberately left in a hole at the base of a dead tree in the middle of a wood?

Come on, people... this is the REAL world. If it's rubbish, get rid of it!

 

This is exactly what I'd call the common sense approach, if the sandwich box you left under a tree is stolen/trashed/eaten by wild dogs/whatever it's the risk you take when you leave it there.

 

Others seem to disagree, as described in the sticky at the top of the forum (link) where the advice includes, among other things, "If you find this person (or persons) has stolen either your cache or your trackable from a cache you should contact your local police and report it as a theft. Explain what geocaching is and that the cache container/trackable is your personal property and make sure you get a crime report reference number."

 

I really struggle to see how it's anything other than a waste of police time to report the theft of a sandwich box under a dead tree however much the people responsible might be spoiling our fun. If the cache container is broken resulting in the contents getting wet and mouldy then it's even more of a waste of time.

 

That said if police advice is that removal of a cache container is considered to be theft (as the sticky thread says) on the basis it was placed there deliberately rather than abandoned, it does raise the question of when a deliberately placed container can be considered to be abandoned and removed without legal ramifications.

 

I think it's silly that the police are involved in what seems to me to be nothing more than a squabble between rival groups, so I'd personally be disinclined to make a public statement that I'd removed and destroyed what could be identified as someone else's private property whatever the state of it.

 

The Post your referring to, was posted to specifically help deal with, Person(s) unknown. Who openly admit in their logs, that they have trashed and stolen the containers and contents. Including any Trackables they find. They actually acknowledge that they are stealing the container, in their post.

 

Deci

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Ok just to clarify.

 

We're talking about a cache container which has broken local to yourself.

Who exactly is going to report you for theft? The cache owner who hasn't logged on in years and doesn't respond to your message? Or the cache owner who responds to your message, in which case it's not theft as you've contacted the owner to either get it to them or confirm they want you to replace with a new box.

 

In the first case you would obviously get a TB or coin moving and out of a broken box then throw away the container once the reviewer gives up trying to get the owner to respond.

 

In The second you get the box to the owner or, if you're able to and they ask you, you can replace the damaged box.

 

There is no theft. You're CITOing and improving the game and country.

 

Does anybody seriously believe that a cache owner is going to wander into the the local cop-shop and report the loss of... or possible theft of... a cracked 35mm film pot containing a few grammes of soggy paper and a pencil stub with no point that he'd deliberately left in a hole at the base of a dead tree in the middle of a wood?

Come on, people... this is the REAL world. If it's rubbish, get rid of it!

 

This is exactly what I'd call the common sense approach, if the sandwich box you left under a tree is stolen/trashed/eaten by wild dogs/whatever it's the risk you take when you leave it there.

 

Others seem to disagree, as described in the sticky at the top of the forum (link) where the advice includes, among other things, "If you find this person (or persons) has stolen either your cache or your trackable from a cache you should contact your local police and report it as a theft. Explain what geocaching is and that the cache container/trackable is your personal property and make sure you get a crime report reference number."

 

I really struggle to see how it's anything other than a waste of police time to report the theft of a sandwich box under a dead tree however much the people responsible might be spoiling our fun. If the cache container is broken resulting in the contents getting wet and mouldy then it's even more of a waste of time.

 

That said if police advice is that removal of a cache container is considered to be theft (as the sticky thread says) on the basis it was placed there deliberately rather than abandoned, it does raise the question of when a deliberately placed container can be considered to be abandoned and removed without legal ramifications.

 

I think it's silly that the police are involved in what seems to me to be nothing more than a squabble between rival groups, so I'd personally be disinclined to make a public statement that I'd removed and destroyed what could be identified as someone else's private property whatever the state of it.

 

The Post your referring to, was posted to specifically help deal with, Person(s) unknown. Who openly admit in their logs, that they have trashed and stolen the containers and contents. Including any Trackables they find. They actually acknowledge that they are stealing the container, in their post.

 

Deci

 

I appreciate that, it just seems to me that it's still a trivial issue and getting the police involved is akin to calling the police with a complaint of common assault over an issue of two children in school pushing each other around. Yes, it might technically count as common assault but it would make more sense to send them to the headmaster's office rather than start throwing around criminal accusations.

 

For every group like the ones referenced in the post I linked (who I won't name to avoid giving them any extra references) there must be many other people who have either removed and destroyed caches thinking they were rubbish or removed and destroyed caches as an act of malice against our game, or emptied caches because they had some desire to keep the contents. As far as I can see it's just a risk we accept when we play the game.

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Ok just to clarify.

 

We're talking about a cache container which has broken local to yourself.

Who exactly is going to report you for theft? The cache owner who hasn't logged on in years and doesn't respond to your message? Or the cache owner who responds to your message, in which case it's not theft as you've contacted the owner to either get it to them or confirm they want you to replace with a new box.

 

In the first case you would obviously get a TB or coin moving and out of a broken box then throw away the container once the reviewer gives up trying to get the owner to respond.

 

In The second you get the box to the owner or, if you're able to and they ask you, you can replace the damaged box.

 

There is no theft. You're CITOing and improving the game and country.

 

Does anybody seriously believe that a cache owner is going to wander into the the local cop-shop and report the loss of... or possible theft of... a cracked 35mm film pot containing a few grammes of soggy paper and a pencil stub with no point that he'd deliberately left in a hole at the base of a dead tree in the middle of a wood?

Come on, people... this is the REAL world. If it's rubbish, get rid of it!

 

This is exactly what I'd call the common sense approach, if the sandwich box you left under a tree is stolen/trashed/eaten by wild dogs/whatever it's the risk you take when you leave it there.

 

Others seem to disagree, as described in the sticky at the top of the forum (link) where the advice includes, among other things, "If you find this person (or persons) has stolen either your cache or your trackable from a cache you should contact your local police and report it as a theft. Explain what geocaching is and that the cache container/trackable is your personal property and make sure you get a crime report reference number."

 

I really struggle to see how it's anything other than a waste of police time to report the theft of a sandwich box under a dead tree however much the people responsible might be spoiling our fun. If the cache container is broken resulting in the contents getting wet and mouldy then it's even more of a waste of time.

 

That said if police advice is that removal of a cache container is considered to be theft (as the sticky thread says) on the basis it was placed there deliberately rather than abandoned, it does raise the question of when a deliberately placed container can be considered to be abandoned and removed without legal ramifications.

 

I think it's silly that the police are involved in what seems to me to be nothing more than a squabble between rival groups, so I'd personally be disinclined to make a public statement that I'd removed and destroyed what could be identified as someone else's private property whatever the state of it.

 

The Post your referring to, was posted to specifically help deal with, Person(s) unknown. Who openly admit in their logs, that they have trashed and stolen the containers and contents. Including any Trackables they find. They actually acknowledge that they are stealing the container, in their post.

 

Deci

 

I hope the reviewers can see the distinction between the idiots who go out to damage the game and the suggestion that I'm making here. I would like an opinion from yourselves as to this idea.

 

I hope that people realise that if we start to adopt this approach we will enhance everyone's enjoyment of the hobby and increase the respect and friendliness in the community. Start to address the number of caches that must be out there that have been archived and are now just littering and speed up the process of replacing broken boxes.

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Does anybody seriously believe that a cache owner is going to wander into the the local cop-shop and report the loss of... or possible theft of... a cracked 35mm film pot containing a few grammes of soggy paper and a pencil stub with no point that he'd deliberately left in a hole at the base of a dead tree in the middle of a wood?

Come on, people... this is the REAL world. If it's rubbish, get rid of it!

It has happened before.

The guy had a four-year history of cache theft, in Towns and even quite a few "in the wood".

It doesn't matter what condition it's in. If it's not yours and you take it, it's theft.

 

I didn't say that clearing up rubbish isn't theft, however pedantic you want to be.... I just remarked that nobody in their right mind is going to to report it to the overworked and (probably) under paid local constabulary. Caches go missing.... tough... that's one of the hazards of participating in the game. Whether the cache was deliberately taken by someone who knew what it was or just picked up by an inquisitive member of the general public makes little difference. You either replace it or archive it. What you don't do is cry to the police about it. They may well act all concerned and possibly even give you a crime number but you can be sure that once you've left the station, they'll be thinking "What a w**ker". :ph34r:

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PRISONER NUMBER 573200 – HOLLOWAY

CRIMINAL CHARGE – CROSS-ROADER KEISTER-CACHER

PUNISHMENT - DOIN’ 6 MONTHS BIRD FOR CACHE BEEF

 

Gotta be quick here, the snouts are snoopin outside and it’s Yard Out in a mo.

I got a few good scores from the caches I retrieved after archival.

I use the micro lid I retrieved as a cap on my Dice Shaker.

The other haul was just a wet logbook but I tear strips off that to use as karzee roll when the Hacks don’t give me any.

Hopin’ to get jam roll any day now.

Gotta go, Yard Out time.

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So we've established that it's not theft.

We've established that we're talking about broken boxes near your home that you're willing to take home and either replace or get to the owner.

What we haven't got is any thoughts from the reviewers regarding the idea.

If it was accepted good practice for cachers to do this locally to them it would reduce the work for reviewers by not having to post needs archive emails or archiving containers discarded by people no longer caching or too busy lording it up to maintain them whilst knowing it's become litter.

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I’m not sure we have established that its not theft but if it is, I’m vastly content to (occasionally) be labelled a pilferer in this instance.

There are many things in Geoworld that are considered good practice but unfortunately, far fewer practitioners of the ethos.

Personally, as I have said, I would only ever do it if I thought the (re)placement worthy of my efforts.

On the up-side, if it makes you happy to restore/replace boxes, I’m reasonably confident you will never be banged up or chastised for doing so :) .

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So we've established that it's not theft.

We've established that we're talking about broken boxes near your home that you're willing to take home and either replace or get to the owner.

What we haven't got is any thoughts from the reviewers regarding the idea.

If it was accepted good practice for cachers to do this locally to them it would reduce the work for reviewers by not having to post needs archive emails or archiving containers discarded by people no longer caching or too busy lording it up to maintain them whilst knowing it's become litter.

 

I'm not sure we have established that it's not theft, since there still doesn't seem to be any way to objectively differentiate between a box that we (as geocachers) might say is obviously abandoned and a box that the general population might say is obviously abandoned but we as geocachers might say is deliberately placed for someone else to find.

 

It looks like we're not even agreed on whether people deliberately taking geocaches as part of an organised campaign against our game are worthy of police time - some clearly believe they are and others (myself included) consider reporting such things to be a total waste of police time.

 

For what it's worth if a cache owner is active I may consider taking a cache home for repair/TLC if it's in an area I visit often enough to not leave it missing for any length of time; if a CO is not active it's better (legal implications aside) to chuck it in the trash and post NA against it - if the owner isn't looking after it then it's going to get archived sooner or later anyway and it's better to have one archived so a new one can appear in the area.

Edited by team tisri
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I'm not sure we have established that it's not theft ...

I think we have - if you check back to my post #30 of 30th April, it is crystal clear that what nobby is suggesting is not theft.

 

Rgds, Andy

 

OK, re-reading that post it looks like point © would provide cover if the owner (who can easily be identified) does not respond to questions over whether they want to keep the cache in place.

 

Personally I think it's silly to regard people muggling and destroying caches as theft in the sense of expecting the police to do anything about it but then I don't make the rules :)

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Personally I think it's silly to regard people muggling and destroying caches as theft in the sense of expecting the police to do anything about it but then I don't make the rules smile.gif

 

No one expects any action off the Police, other than recording a Crime which has taken place. This was advice actually given by a Police Officer, when a query was made to them. By creating a report, you create a History, for future reference.If we take the average value to be around £3, there is one Group who openly admit on the cache page, that they have trashed and stolen caches. who if you take into account the value of the Trackables they also have acknowledged stealing. To have taken property to at least the value of £500, possibly more. The creation of a Official History of all their thefts, if they are ever caught, means instead of being chargeable with theft to the value of £3, there is a history of their actions to point to.

 

And no one is saying to report every missing cache, just those where there is clear evidence, that it has been stolen.

 

If you have personally not been targeted by the Group referenced above, you are one of the lucky ones. Others have had a number of their caches stolen, and the group admitting this on the cache page. Several have lost property, with a value over £100, due to the number of caches they own, having been stolen.

 

Deci

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Personally I think it's silly to regard people muggling and destroying caches as theft in the sense of expecting the police to do anything about it but then I don't make the rules smile.gif

 

No one expects any action off the Police, other than recording a Crime which has taken place. This was advice actually given by a Police Officer, when a query was made to them. By creating a report, you create a History, for future reference.If we take the average value to be around £3, there is one Group who openly admit on the cache page, that they have trashed and stolen caches. who if you take into account the value of the Trackables they also have acknowledged stealing. To have taken property to at least the value of £500, possibly more. The creation of a Official History of all their thefts, if they are ever caught, means instead of being chargeable with theft to the value of £3, there is a history of their actions to point to.

 

And no one is saying to report every missing cache, just those where there is clear evidence, that it has been stolen.

 

If you have personally not been targeted by the Group referenced above, you are one of the lucky ones. Others have had a number of their caches stolen, and the group admitting this on the cache page. Several have lost property, with a value over £100, due to the number of caches they own, having been stolen.

 

Deci

 

I realise this is a bit of a derail from the OP but even if this group had stolen caches with a notional value of £5000 or £50000 what are the odds of them ever actually being caught? Presumably they don't keep a stash of stolen geocaches in their shed or something as a trophy, and presumably they don't grab caches in a way that makes it obvious what they are doing at the time.

 

So short of having police officers staking out cache sites it's hard to see them ever being caught. Even if by some bizarre course of events someone did catch them taking a cache away they'd have an obvious cover in that they were retreating to a safe distance to sign it, and then they could put it back. Presumably the person who caught them in the act would leave sooner or later, at which point they could return to take the cache.

 

It's not like a serial burglar who leaves a trail of crime reports in his wake until the law finally catches up with him as a result of another burglary, or the police catch him in possession of the stolen goods.

 

I must admit I'm surprised that a police officer would suggest creating crime reports for crimes that are realistically never going to be solved.

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Personally I think it's silly to regard people muggling and destroying caches as theft in the sense of expecting the police to do anything about it but then I don't make the rules smile.gif

 

No one expects any action off the Police, other than recording a Crime which has taken place. This was advice actually given by a Police Officer, when a query was made to them. By creating a report, you create a History, for future reference.If we take the average value to be around £3, there is one Group who openly admit on the cache page, that they have trashed and stolen caches. who if you take into account the value of the Trackables they also have acknowledged stealing. To have taken property to at least the value of £500, possibly more. The creation of a Official History of all their thefts, if they are ever caught, means instead of being chargeable with theft to the value of £3, there is a history of their actions to point to.

 

And no one is saying to report every missing cache, just those where there is clear evidence, that it has been stolen.

 

If you have personally not been targeted by the Group referenced above, you are one of the lucky ones. Others have had a number of their caches stolen, and the group admitting this on the cache page. Several have lost property, with a value over £100, due to the number of caches they own, having been stolen.

 

Deci

 

Deci, Thanks for interacting with this thread for a second time but I really really would like an opinion from the reviewers of this idea which is intended to make official a way of helping the reviewers and other cachers and do so with the blessing of the reviewers and maybe Groundspeak without everyone being worried about being reported for a crime that they aren't committing.

 

I know that there have been times that idiots have said that they are stealing caches...we've covered that actions undertaken within this idea isn't theft and is completely different from those instances where they've taken and destroyed perfectly good caches with property enclosed.

 

This is for broken caches that are not fit for purpose anymore. Those that will need replacing or archiving by people that enjoy the hobby and want to make it better not mindless vandals and petty criminals.

 

So I'd be very grateful if you could just have a quick chat when you have the time and give an opinion on this :) thanks

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Matt the Reviewers can only give you 2 totally different replies, one as a Reviewer, and a different one as a Member

 

As a Reviewer so "Officially" representing Groundspeak, we are required to apply Groundspeak's instructions. And that is the container remains the property of the owner at all times. And as such we can not request anyone other than the Owner, uplifts the container. I personally have made requests for Trackables to be Uplifted from caches, I believe will not be Published, or Uplifted by the Owner, as the Trackables remain the property of their owners. But I have to make it clear, that the request is only for the Trackable. What the person does with the container, is not something I ask about, or want to know.

 

As a Member so not "Officially" representing Groundspeak, but simply voicing my own personal opinion, I am free to express a opinion.

 

And that is I would like to see a system put in place, where 6 months after a cache has been Archived [or whatever name is used] from "All" Listing Sites. A volunteer goes out to check that the container has been uplifted. To this aim, a Points system is set up, 1 point for physically going to check, where a Owner has not confirmed that the container has been uplifted. 3 points for actually uplifting a abandoned container.

 

At the end of each 12 month period, individuals scores are tallied, and the person with the highest amount of points per Region and for the UK as a whole is awarded a Badge for their profile. And possibly funded by donations, a Trackable, or other Geocaching related prize.

 

This is a Project that would be suitable for the GAGB to run, with Volunteers co-opted by the Committee, to run the project on their behalf. If the GAGB was to take this one, I'd personally be happy to make donations to fund prizes such as Trackables.

 

I know not really helpful, but as stated, Reviewers represent Groundspeak, who are the ones who set Policy. As Members we are free to suggest Policies.

 

Deci

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Deci. Couldn't be happier with your reply :)

 

That scheme, assuming that we couldn't get enough people to volunteer just out of the goodness of their heart, would be great I'm certainly happy to be the volunteer for the new forest. I'm not associated with the GAGB at the moment so would be grateful if you'd suggest it to them.

 

It's such a shame that Groundspeak as a whole wouldn't consider this as a sensible idea to adopt worldwide. With 2million listed caches there must be hundreds of thousands of abandoned boxes out there. I wonder if the powers that be might be amenable to the suggestion?

 

Thanks for being willing to express your personal opinion, never easy when some people jump all over the reviewers at every excuse.

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Deci. Couldn't be happier with your reply :)

 

That scheme, assuming that we couldn't get enough people to volunteer just out of the goodness of their heart, would be great I'm certainly happy to be the volunteer for the new forest. I'm not associated with the GAGB at the moment so would be grateful if you'd suggest it to them.

 

It's such a shame that Groundspeak as a whole wouldn't consider this as a sensible idea to adopt worldwide. With 2million listed caches there must be hundreds of thousands of abandoned boxes out there. I wonder if the powers that be might be amenable to the suggestion?

 

Thanks for being willing to express your personal opinion, never easy when some people jump all over the reviewers at every excuse.

 

As requested posted on the GAGB Forum, it is up to the Committee and Membership, if they move forward with the idea.

 

Deci

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We should not touch caches belonging to others as there is a chance that they have withdrawn the cache from listing at geocaching.com but still list it elsewhere.

 

Groundspeak has no authority legally in the UK to remove a physical cache or to encourage others to do so, their authority goes as far as listing or not of a cache on the websites under their control.

 

I support the principles under which Groundspeak works but until it has a legal standing on which to instruct removal of caches in the UK it shouldn't even consider a scheme to remove caches.

 

We have enough issues about caches being stolen this could develop the same way.

 

Lets give this a 100% miss.

 

Paul

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