+Leatherneck Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I’m the CO of a muti-cache (GC2QN7Z) that I placed on 3/21/2011. Because of the extremely long hike it has had only one finder except for a Beta Tester. I would like to convert the 9 stages to individual caches in the hopes that the added smileys might generate more interest. Each stage would contain the coordinates to the next stage (as they do now) and thus would have to be found in sequence. Currently each of the stages has been assigned a GC number. My questions are as follows: • Can this be done? • If so, how? • What should the requirement for a find of a stage be (no Log Sheet). E-mailing of the coordinates that are contained within the stage??? • Currently the rating of GC2QN7Z is 5/5. The individual stages may or may not be a 5/5/ Therefore, would the rating of the original multi change? Thanks in advance for your help. Leatherneck Quote Link to comment
+Great Scott! Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 You will need to revisit each old stage and add a log sheet to the container. The original cache would no longer be a multi-cache and should be archived and submitted again as a traditional cache. Quote Link to comment
+Great Scott! Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Also each cache after the first one should be submitted as the Unknown Cache type. Be aware that if one the caches goes missing, or can't be found, the geocacher can't continue down the trail to find the remaining caches of the series. Quote Link to comment
+Leatherneck Posted April 22, 2013 Author Share Posted April 22, 2013 Thanks Great Scott for you help. A log sheet should be added to each individual cache I agree. Why wouldn't the orginal cache still be a multi? Each of the stages (new caches) have to be found in order to find the final which is the original. Leatherneck Quote Link to comment
+The_Incredibles_ Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 You could archive your multi, then re-publish as a series of mystery caches, at lest 161 meters apart. Each cache MUST have a logbook for people to sign. Signing the logbook is the only requirement for a find. You can't ask people to email you before they can log a find. You would have a minimum of 2 things in each cache: a logbook and the coordinates to the next cache. Each cache would need to be rated individually, according to the worst terrain someone may need to pass through to get to it. The caches further along would need higher terrain ratings due to the distance required to get to them. You could do all this, however, I'm thinking you're making this unnecessarily hard on yourself (and the finders). What if someone hikes all the way out there and can't find one of the caches? Why not make them into a series of traditional caches? Multis and puzzles are always less popular than traditionals. To do this, you would need to archive your multi, then publish a series of traditional caches. You will need to revisit them to put in logbooks and also make sure they are at least 161 meters apart. Quote Link to comment
+Great Scott! Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Thanks Great Scott for you help. A log sheet should be added to each individual cache I agree. Why wouldn't the original cache still be a multi? Each of the stages (new caches) have to be found in order to find the final which is the original. Leatherneck I was assuming that the original cache was the first stage of the old multi. Which now would not be a multi. It would be a stand alone Traditional cache that could be found and logged as a find without having to continue down the trail. The final stage of the old multi would be listed a whole new Unknown cache that can only be found after finding the previous cache in the new series. Quote Link to comment
+Semper Questio Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I'd go with the idea form The Incredibles. Make each cache a field puzzle leading to the next. If you want to add another dimension, you could also put a clue in each cache for the final cache's coordinates (the current multi final) which you would archive and republish as a bonus cache for the series. Quote Link to comment
+GeoTrekker26 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Thanks Great Scott for you help. A log sheet should be added to each individual cache I agree. Why wouldn't the orginal cache still be a multi? Each of the stages (new caches) have to be found in order to find the final which is the original. Leatherneck It can't be both a single 9 stage multi and 9 individual caches. You have to choose one or the other and it sounds like you want 1 traditional and 8 unknown caches. You might consider putting the coordinates for the next two caches in each cache. This would allow the cacher to continue if one goes missing and perhaps reduce the times you will need to make the trip for maintenance. Quote Link to comment
+Great Scott! Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 You could archive your multi, then re-publish as a series of mystery caches, at lest 161 meters apart. Each cache MUST have a logbook for people to sign. Signing the logbook is the only requirement for a find. You can't ask people to email you before they can log a find. You would have a minimum of 2 things in each cache: a logbook and the coordinates to the next cache. Each cache would need to be rated individually, according to the worst terrain someone may need to pass through to get to it. The caches further along would need higher terrain ratings due to the distance required to get to them. You could do all this, however, I'm thinking you're making this unnecessarily hard on yourself (and the finders). What if someone hikes all the way out there and can't find one of the caches? Why not make them into a series of traditional caches? Multis and puzzles are always less popular than traditionals. To do this, you would need to archive your multi, then publish a series of traditional caches. You will need to revisit them to put in logbooks and also make sure they are at least 161 meters apart. Yes! A series of traditional caches down the long trail would be more fun to do. If you can't find that first one the whole day plan could be ruined. Quote Link to comment
+palmetto Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Advice from a reviewer account. I have NOT looked at your specific cache. 1) archive the current multi-cache 2) revisit the existing stages, and add logs to them 3) resubmit as 9 Traditional caches Optional, make 8 of the caches Traditional, each with partial coordinate data, or some other info, that leads to the series final, an Unknown "bonus" cache. Or convert some number of the current stages as Traditionals, put a couple of stages together in the middle as a short multi, and finish with a couple more Trads. This lets some people have that multi experience, and lets the stronger walkers see the whole length of the trail. What NOT to do: submit a series of cache where one leads to the next to the next >- Unknown cache type, daisy chained. This weak cache design means that if one of the caches closer to the trailhead goes down, it takes as many as 8 other listings with it. It's a bad idea, and not apt to be published. It's mentioned in the Help Center Article that may clarify Puzzle/Mystery/Unknown. Generally, clues for a bonus cache should not be placed in another bonus cache Quote Link to comment
+Leatherneck Posted April 22, 2013 Author Share Posted April 22, 2013 Thanks to everyone for your ideas/advice. I think I'll drop my idea and leave the cache as it is. Leatherneck Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Thanks to everyone for your ideas/advice. I think I'll drop my idea and leave the cache as it is. I'm kinda relieved because I didn't think you'd like your alternatives. So now that you're keeping the multi, I'll suggest adding additional traditional caches along the way to encourage people to take the multi trek at the same time. If there's room for more caches between the multi stages, some traditionals might offer a few advantages. For example, people could hike so far to pick up some of the multi-stages while also grabbing some of the traditionals so they have something to show for their effort. Then they can come back another day to continue further. If all that's there is the one multi, seekers are more likely to ignore it if they can't do it in one shot. Quote Link to comment
+Leatherneck Posted April 22, 2013 Author Share Posted April 22, 2013 dprovan, I placed 4 traditional caches along the trail shortly after placing the 5/5. Three of those caches have only had 2 finds because they require a mile or 2 round trip hike. One has had a few only because it is a park-n-grab. There are very few cachers in my neck of the woods that will venture very far away from their car for a cache. lol Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I placed 4 traditional caches along the trail shortly after placing the 5/5. Three of those caches have only had 2 finds because they require a mile or 2 round trip hike. One has had a few only because it is a park-n-grab. There are very few cachers in my neck of the woods that will venture very far away from their car for a cache. lol That probably explains why the multi only has one find, then, wouldn't you say? It sounds like you've got a great area set up. I'm sure it will be discovered eventually. Quote Link to comment
+Leatherneck Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 Yes it is a good set up. It's along a 23 mile loop trail located in a National Forest. There's a Base Camp on both the North and South side of the loop. Perfect for backpackers. There are also several places to bugout if a cacher wanted to tackle it in multi visits. Leatherneck Quote Link to comment
+wmpastor Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Yes it is a good set up. It's along a 23 mile loop trail located in a National Forest. There's a Base Camp on both the North and South side of the loop. Perfect for backpackers. There are also several places to bugout if a cacher wanted to tackle it in multi visits. Leatherneck 23-mile loop, huh? Even if the multi doesn't require the full loop, that hugely narrows the field. Even very fit people who can walk 10 miles might be intimidated. Quote Link to comment
+The_Incredibles_ Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Yes it is a good set up. It's along a 23 mile loop trail located in a National Forest. There's a Base Camp on both the North and South side of the loop. Perfect for backpackers. There are also several places to bugout if a cacher wanted to tackle it in multi visits. Leatherneck 23-mile loop, huh? Even if the multi doesn't require the full loop, that hugely narrows the field. Even very fit people who can walk 10 miles might be intimidated. Probably explains why it's rarely found. I guess it's up to each cache owner to decide what they want, but to me, the only reason to put a geocache out is for others to find it, the more frequently the better, IMO. Quote Link to comment
+Leatherneck Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 The Incredibles, you are not alone in your thinking. A very large number of cachers prefer a quick park-n-grab….just give me that smiley!! IMO, a cache should have some redeeming qualities such as an adventure, unique hide, placed in scenic area, nice walk in the woods etc. This cache has all of that. It is my version of “Anti Park-N-Grab”. I was just trying to figure a way to give a cacher a little more bang for their buck. Quote Link to comment
+Ruddles1325 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I would place some traditionals along the route of the multi. 23 miles is a long way for one smiley Near me there's a nice multi nightcache of around 20km based on the zodiac. It got a lot more logs when the owner added 12 traditional caches along the trail based on signs of the zodiac. Quote Link to comment
+Leatherneck Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) I already have 4 traditionals along the trail. I may add a couple more "Bread Crumbs". Edited April 23, 2013 by Leatherneck Quote Link to comment
+ByronForestPreserve Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Jumping in to ask a question-- People suggested turning the multi into one traditional and several unknown/mystery types, with the coords to each of those in the previous container. I'm confused as to how that's a different set-up (other than getting more smileys). I mean, that sounds like the very definition of a multi... Mystery/Puzzle CachesThe information needed to solve this type cache must be available to the general community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page. Multi CachesThe coordinates posted at the top of the cache listing are for the first stage of a multi-cache. Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Jumping in to ask a question-- People suggested turning the multi into one traditional and several unknown/mystery types, with the coords to each of those in the previous container. I'm confused as to how that's a different set-up (other than getting more smileys). I mean, that sounds like the very definition of a multi... The original idea was, in fact, to get more smilies. But to answer your basic question, where a series of traditional caches provide pieces which add up to a final, I've always seen that listed as a unknown cache. While I see the logic of saying it should be a multi, any given spot would have to be either a multi stage or a traditional, it couldn't be both because of the proximity limitation. Quote Link to comment
+The_Incredibles_ Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 The Incredibles, you are not alone in your thinking. A very large number of cachers prefer a quick park-n-grab….just give me that smiley!! IMO, a cache should have some redeeming qualities such as an adventure, unique hide, placed in scenic area, nice walk in the woods etc. This cache has all of that. It is my version of “Anti Park-N-Grab”. I was just trying to figure a way to give a cacher a little more bang for their buck. I"m all for quality caches and I"m not suggesting you put caches in parking lots. If your goal is to bring people to this awesome area and encourage them to enjoy this great hiking trail, then put out a series of traditionals. No point in putting out a cache, IMO, if nobody's looking for it. Kind of like spending hours making a gourmet dinner and you eat it alone. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Kind of like spending hours making a gourmet dinner and you eat it alone. If nobody accepts your invitation, it's their loss. I'd prefer a 'gourmet meal' with some actual meat to it over one made from puffed rice and tofu. Not that there is anything wrong with puffed rice or tofu, but a steady diet like that will leave you weak and flaccid. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Thanks to everyone for your ideas/advice. I think I'll drop my idea and leave the cache as it is. Leatherneck Thanks. Although I will probably not get to look for it, it's good to know there are caches like this one out there. Quote Link to comment
+The_Incredibles_ Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Kind of like spending hours making a gourmet dinner and you eat it alone. If nobody accepts your invitation, it's their loss. I'd prefer a 'gourmet meal' with some actual meat to it over one made from puffed rice and tofu. Not that there is anything wrong with puffed rice or tofu, but a steady diet like that will leave you weak and flaccid. I take it you're single and live with your cat? It's a 23 mile circuit. Even if someone only did 1/4 of it, there would be nothing weak or flaccid about them. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 I take it you're single and live with your cat? It's a 23 mile circuit. Even if someone only did 1/4 of it, there would be nothing weak or flaccid about them. Very much married, with zero cats. There is no prize for running 1/4 of the marathon...either you finish or you don't. Quote Link to comment
+stijnhommes Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) While you could archive the current multi cache and turn it into a series that has to be done in order, I doubt it would drive more people to the cache. The problem here is the time investment people need to put in finding a multi or a series of linked caches and the fact it's kind of in the middle of nowhere. YOu're more likely to get additional visits if you place some more traditionals along the route towards the starting point from the nearest town. Also, it's listed as 5 difficulty, 5 terrain. Is that accurate? A 5 terrain cache might be putting some people off... Edited April 24, 2013 by stijnhommes Quote Link to comment
+Leatherneck Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) I believe the 5 terrain rating to be accurate based on the sheer distance, mud and creek crossings. Also, some of the stages are very difficult. However, all ratings are judgmental and therefore opent to debate. I have decided to let the cache stand as is. Edited April 24, 2013 by Leatherneck Quote Link to comment
+The A-Team Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Also, it's listed as 5 difficulty, 5 terrain. Is that accurate? A 5 terrain cache might be putting some people off... Good point. Does the cache require specialized skills or equipment, like climbing equipment or a boat? If not, the terrain rating could probably be dropped, and then it might not scare away as many people. Edit for clarification Edited April 24, 2013 by The A-Team Quote Link to comment
+Don_J Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Jumping in to ask a question-- People suggested turning the multi into one traditional and several unknown/mystery types, with the coords to each of those in the previous container. I'm confused as to how that's a different set-up (other than getting more smileys). I mean, that sounds like the very definition of a multi... The original idea was, in fact, to get more smilies. But to answer your basic question, where a series of traditional caches provide pieces which add up to a final, I've always seen that listed as a unknown cache. While I see the logic of saying it should be a multi, any given spot would have to be either a multi stage or a traditional, it couldn't be both because of the proximity limitation. A series of traditional caches with clues that leads to a final puzzle bonus cache is fine. As was noted, a series of puzzle caches that daisy chain to each other is generally not permitted as it is properly known as, and should be listed as a single multi cache. The only reason for doing so would be to let the finders rack up smileys. If that is the ultimate goal, simply stick with traditionals. I can't speak for the OP's area, but if I put in nine traditional caches along 23 miles of trail, there would be 50+ caches on it by the end of the year as most every cacher that went out to find them would leave a few more, which entices more to come, who also leave more. Quote Link to comment
+stijnhommes Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I believe the 5 terrain rating to be accurate based on the sheer distance, mud and creek crossings. Also, some of the stages are very difficult. However, all ratings are judgmental and therefore opent to debate. I have decided to let the cache stand as is. A rating 5 terrain is a terrain that requires special equipment. If you want more visits, you can either drop the terrain rating to 4 or 4.5 or specify what material is required so people can prepare for this cache before they leave home. Quote Link to comment
+L0ne.R Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I believe the 5 terrain rating to be accurate based on the sheer distance, mud and creek crossings. Also, some of the stages are very difficult. However, all ratings are judgmental and therefore opent to debate. I have decided to let the cache stand as is. A rating 5 terrain is a terrain that requires special equipment. If you want more visits, you can either drop the terrain rating to 4 or 4.5 or specify what material is required so people can prepare for this cache before they leave home. +1 Quote Link to comment
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