Premium membership price hike in Europe.

[+MartyBartfast]

If anyone hasn't noticed all EU Premium memberships have just had a price hike, in the UK we now have to pay £24.99, which is about %25 more than the US rate of $29.99. This is being discussed here:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=309954&st=0

 

Probably better to post on that thread if you have something to say, though I doubt anything will change as a result.

[+MartyBartfast]

Oops replied to the wrong thread!

Edited April 19, 2013 by MartyBartfast

[+sparklefingers]

When does this come into play? When I looked the other day it was listed as $30 via Paypal

[+ivanidea]

It seems to be operational now!

 

Make friends with somebody from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey or Gibralter, since they are not part of the EU and will be charged in US dollars.

[+MartyBartfast]

When does this come into play? When I looked the other day it was listed as $30 via Paypal

 

It already has, all the up front pages say $30, but when you click through to actually pay it changes and says your location is UK, and the price changes to £24.99.

[+The Growler]

I gather on the main forum that people are getting quite worked up about Premium membership for the year. There is so much "chatter" that I would appreciate a summary.

My understanding is that I pay $20 pa and that the exchange rate is my risk as I pay by Credit Card or Pay Pal or whatever.

There has been talk of VAT being introduced; paying in Sterling being introduced; and a freeze for recurring members at $20. I am confused and would like some clarity as to what is actually happening so that I can make an informed decision before I travel to the US and fire-bomb Groundspeak's offices.

 

(Message for the CIA and MI5 - the last bit is a joke)

 

Oh and if you could fix maps for me so that the one useful thing about the site actually works properly............

Edited April 21, 2013 by The Growler

[+MartyBartfast]

The price has always been $30 (not $20), with the member taking the hit for exchange rates & currency conversion rates.

 

This has now changed, and although all the up front pages still quote the price as $30, when you click on a payment link it figures out where in Europe you are and the price then changes, so for the UK it changes to £24.99, the rest of Europe gets a Euro rate which I think is even more than £24.99.

 

Groundspeak say they are being obliged to charge VAT and the new rate includes VAT, and a component because they are now taking the risk on currency charges, and because we're paying in £ we will nolonger have to pay a conversion rate.

 

Groundspeak have also said that those with a recurring membership will still be locked into the old rate of $30, but I think that only applies to the automatically renewing membership and not just someone who's manually renewed every year.

 

There's a lot of angst over it and the situation may or may not change, however if what GS has said in the forums is correct, and that their site falls under the EU requirement to charge VAT then the best we can hope for is that we'll be charged the equivalent of $30 + VAT, which is still an increase.

 

I think the most likely way to avoid the extra payment will be to fool GS into thinking you're in the US when you renew so you get it VAT free, although that technically could be VAT fraud!

[+stijnhommes]

VAT is a tax you're supposed to pay on value added to a product/service in the European Union. Not paying VAT on a service that is entire created in the US is, in my opinion not fraud. Perhaps unethical, but not fraud.

[+castagnari]

*Merging duplicate threads*

 

This topic is being discussed in this thread might I suggest that future replies are posted there, to keep everything together

[+C8W9]

When does this come into play? When I looked the other day it was listed as $30 via Paypal

 

It already has, all the up front pages say $30, but when you click through to actually pay it changes and says your location is UK, and the price changes to £24.99.

 

When you're paying, click "not your location", change it to the US, pay for it in dollars.

 

If you want ultimate cover, create a "dead-drop" account, make it premium as above, run all your PQ's from there, then log your finds etc. on your current account.

[+The Growler]

If it is VAT - related , why do recurring members not get a price hike?

[+sparklefingers]

When does this come into play? When I looked the other day it was listed as $30 via Paypal

 

It already has, all the up front pages say $30, but when you click through to actually pay it changes and says your location is UK, and the price changes to £24.99.

 

Well that's annoying. though when i last processed the $30 dollars it took £22 from my paypal. and when i did it on thursay it was still $30 on paypal.

 

it's not a massive hike but then on the flip side it always seems that america gets a better deal.

[+castagnari]

I feel I must point out that whatever the reasons behind it

This is the first price change since Premium membership was introduced 12 years ago

 

And at £24.99 it still equates to less than 50p/week

[team tisri]

I feel I must point out that whatever the reasons behind it

This is the first price change since Premium membership was introduced 12 years ago

 

And at £24.99 it still equates to less than 50p/week

 

My concern isn't so much that it's a lot of money but the way Groundspeak appear unable to get a coherent story together as to why the price has risen.

 

Firstly they said they converted it to pounds to save us bank charges and currency fees, except that's like saying because we couldn't know whether $30 would cost us £15, £18 or £21 they'd just charge us £25 so we'd have the certainty of knowing. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

Then they said VAT was included but so far haven't explained why they aren't going to give us their VAT number, why they've apparently been absorbing the VAT themselves for the last decade, or indeed how HMRC have any authority over a US firm that has no presence in the UK to require them to charge VAT in the first place.

[+The Growler]

They have no plausible answer because there is no plausible answer. They have well and truly been caught with their hands in the metaphorical till as far as I can see. Oh and with their pants down at the same time!

[+Mad H@ter]

I feel I must point out that whatever the reasons behind it

This is the first price change since Premium membership was introduced 12 years ago

 

And at £24.99 it still equates to less than 50p/week

A good point, well made.

However why should European customers be the only ones to have a price rise?

[BOBBLES WORLD TOUR]

I have no qualms. I don't / won't pay.

But us Brits are known to take any increase of Taxes / Parking charges / Energy charges etc....up the MartyBartfast.

Stop paying or stop whining. Or never set foot in Seattle.

Jeez. I sound like Fatcher back from the dead.

Welcome to the year of the Snake.

[nobby.nobbs]

I feel I must point out that whatever the reasons behind it

This is the first price change since Premium membership was introduced 12 years ago

 

And at £24.99 it still equates to less than 50p/week

A good point, well made.

However why should European customers be the only ones to have a price rise?

 

To be honest if they just fessed up there would be less angst wouldn't there? lol

 

It's back to the good old days when jeremy had his little game and if we didn't like it tough.

[+Matthew 7:7 Too]

I have no qualms. I don't / won't pay.

But us Brits are known to take any increase of Taxes / Parking charges / Energy charges etc....up the MartyBartfast.

Stop paying or stop whining. Or never set foot in Seattle.

Jeez. I sound like Fatcher back from the dead.

Welcome to the year of the Snake.

 

Wasn't the Boston Tea Party all about refusing to pay unjustifiable taxes??

 

Although I think it's arguable that Groundspeak ARE providing a service in the UK as we use their website to find our caches, and so they should pay VAT.

 

The problem is more likely the usual fictitious exchange rate applied to American software when exported to the UK - compare Adobe and Micro$oft prices!

 

Chris

[team tisri]

I have no qualms. I don't / won't pay.

But us Brits are known to take any increase of Taxes / Parking charges / Energy charges etc....up the MartyBartfast.

Stop paying or stop whining. Or never set foot in Seattle.

Jeez. I sound like Fatcher back from the dead.

Welcome to the year of the Snake.

 

Wasn't the Boston Tea Party all about refusing to pay unjustifiable taxes??

 

The Boston Tea Party had, IIRC, the rallying call "no taxation without representation". Since Groundspeak seems to ignore Americans just as much as Europeans when it comes to telling us what's going on I don't think that's going to fly here.

 

Although I think it's arguable that Groundspeak ARE providing a service in the UK as we use their website to find our caches, and so they should pay VAT.

 

The problem is more likely the usual fictitious exchange rate applied to American software when exported to the UK - compare Adobe and Micro$oft prices!

 

The beauty of the silly exchange rate issue for virtual goods is that sometimes you can order from anywhere, wherever you happen to be at the time, and therefore pay the lowest possible price.

[+AmayaTom]

I feel I must point out that whatever the reasons behind it

This is the first price change since Premium membership was introduced 12 years ago

 

And at £24.99 it still equates to less than 50p/week

 

As has been pointed out on the main forum, the price hike is only hitting non-Americans. Which isn't a fair way of doing things.

 

Americans get to play more of the game than we do anyway. Of the 18 cache icons you can get, only 14 of them are available outside of America. Therefore, as we only get to play 14/18's of the game here in the UK/Europe/Rest of the World, we should only pay 14/18's of the price. Instead we are being asked to pay another $8.50 approx at current prices compared to what the Americans do. Which is approx 23/18's of the price. How does that work? People that can play all the game pay 18/18's of the price, and people that can only play 14/18's of the game have to pay 23/18's of the price.

 

Worth pointing out that according to my own memory and of others on the forum, GS promised that whilst you renewed your membership, they would never raise the price. For people that auto-renewed with Paypal (which keeps them locked in to the old price), GS are asking people to cancel the agreement, without telling them that if they do, the price will go up when they renew the new way (very underhand).

 

My own personal preference is to wait until a week or so before renewal time, download as much cache info as possible, and then cache on this old data for a month or so before renewing a month or two later, thereby effectively paying the same amount as I did before.

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

You know it's funny everyone plays hell about big American Corporations, doing everything they can, to Legal avoid paying Taxes in the UK

 

Yet you have a Small American Company, who is fully complying with legislation and collecting and paying VAT are required by Reciprocal Trade Agreements, between the US and EU, something which was enacted in 2002 . And they get ripped to pieces, over charging and collecting the appropriate VAT.

 

Fair enough Communication could have been better, but the major grumble is over how much PM's have gone up. Groundspeak have admitted that they have included a Currency Brokerage Fee, and due to the fluctuating nature of Currencies, if things go the other way, they will get a stung for a loss on each transaction. So a case of swings and roundabouts.

 

If you believe Groundspeak are illegally collecting VAT are required, and are failing to pay that money collected to a appropriate Government Department within the EU, and please remember, one nominated Customs and Revenue Department for a Single Government in the EU, can act as the collection agent for all Countries within the EU. Then make a formal complaint to HMCR.

 

But please be aware, that by circumventing paying VAT, on goods or services, could lead to HMCR, contacting you and requesting back payment. For knowingly circumventing paying appropriate VAT due. And if Canada also has a Reciprocal Agreement, then Businesses there, could face themselves coming into the same situation as Groundspeak.

 

Oh and not every US cacher, pays or has paid $30 for PM, in Washington State, where Groundspeak is located, there is a Local Sales Tax Levied on PM's, so cachers resident there have been paying more for their PM's without screaming about it.

 

So have a rant about poor communication, because that is the cause of your angst. But if your going to rant about VAT being charged, then your just condoning Google and Starbucks efforts to avoid paying UK Taxes, and if/when the exchange rate is in your favour, don't forget to thank Groundspeak for locking you in at a fixed rate, so they take the loss.

 

Groundspeak Staff work their socks off for your benefit, it is poor communication which lets them down.

 

Dave

Mancunain Pyrocacher

Personal Opinion before anyone comments!

[+Amberel]

You know it's funny everyone plays hell about big American Corporations, doing everything they can, to Legal avoid paying Taxes in the UK

Tut tut, that's totally misleading in several ways. VAT is NOT what the current angst about companies not paying UK taxes is about, they all do their VAT. And VAT is a consumer tax anyway, companies don't pay it (or, they pay it and get most of it back). So a totally misleading comparison.

 

Rgds, Andy

[nobby.nobbs]

You know it's funny everyone plays hell about big American Corporations, doing everything they can, to Legal avoid paying Taxes in the UK

 

Yet you have a Small American Company, who is fully complying with legislation and collecting and paying VAT are required by Reciprocal Trade Agreements, between the US and EU, something which was enacted in 2002 . And they get ripped to pieces, over charging and collecting the appropriate VAT.

 

Fair enough Communication could have been better, but the major grumble is over how much PM's have gone up. Groundspeak have admitted that they have included a Currency Brokerage Fee, and due to the fluctuating nature of Currencies, if things go the other way, they will get a stung for a loss on each transaction. So a case of swings and roundabouts.

 

If you believe Groundspeak are illegally collecting VAT are required, and are failing to pay that money collected to a appropriate Government Department within the EU, and please remember, one nominated Customs and Revenue Department for a Single Government in the EU, can act as the collection agent for all Countries within the EU. Then make a formal complaint to HMCR.

 

But please be aware, that by circumventing paying VAT, on goods or services, could lead to HMCR, contacting you and requesting back payment. For knowingly circumventing paying appropriate VAT due. And if Canada also has a Reciprocal Agreement, then Businesses there, could face themselves coming into the same situation as Groundspeak.

 

Oh and not every US cacher, pays or has paid $30 for PM, in Washington State, where Groundspeak is located, there is a Local Sales Tax Levied on PM's, so cachers resident there have been paying more for their PM's without screaming about it.

 

So have a rant about poor communication, because that is the cause of your angst. But if your going to rant about VAT being charged, then your just condoning Google and Starbucks efforts to avoid paying UK Taxes, and if/when the exchange rate is in your favour, don't forget to thank Groundspeak for locking you in at a fixed rate, so they take the loss.

 

Groundspeak Staff work their socks off for your benefit, it is poor communication which lets them down.

 

Dave

Mancunain Pyrocacher

Personal Opinion before anyone comments!

 

Dave, for someone who has repeatedly raved against the tyranny of Garmin and their attitude to cachers due to their business practices this is somewhat hypocritical.

 

Groundspeak chose to make the transaction in local currency, we used to pay in $ and WE took the financial risk of fluctuating rates. So it is spurious to explain that they are being lovely to us to risk their profits. They have factored in a extra cushion already to cover themselves and it means that for a while if not for a long while they are going to be making extra.

They have changed the wording from "continue to renew" to ensure that anyone who just renewed each year cannot keep their fixed price.

If they are paying VAT in this country then let them show us their VAT number so that we know there is nothing underhand going on.

If not then it certainly appears to be a cynical attempt to justify a jump in prices.

 

It has been pointed out that the American market can effectively utilise the game slightly more due to a few different cache types that are not available outside the USA.

 

Whilst a promise made ten years ago to never increase the prices was naive in the extreme, it was a promise none the less. The way that they have just changed that for everyone, except the USA, is what has caused the problem.

 

We are back to the good old days when Jeremy played HIS game HIS way and to heck with anyone who didn't agree. The fact that our reviewers are supporting it is adding insult to injury, personal opinion or not you are the longest standing reviewer and are outspoken when the likes of Garmin treat the caching community with disdain and disrespect yet seem to support Groundspeak when they do the same. You can't have it both ways.

 

If they need more money to make it a viable company then they should be honest and apply the price hike to the ENTIRE community and tell us that they are doing it. People might grumble a bit but would be happy to pay an increase to continue to enjoy the hobby.

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

You know it's funny everyone plays hell about big American Corporations, doing everything they can, to Legal avoid paying Taxes in the UK

 

Yet you have a Small American Company, who is fully complying with legislation and collecting and paying VAT are required by Reciprocal Trade Agreements, between the US and EU, something which was enacted in 2002 . And they get ripped to pieces, over charging and collecting the appropriate VAT.

 

Fair enough Communication could have been better, but the major grumble is over how much PM's have gone up. Groundspeak have admitted that they have included a Currency Brokerage Fee, and due to the fluctuating nature of Currencies, if things go the other way, they will get a stung for a loss on each transaction. So a case of swings and roundabouts.

 

If you believe Groundspeak are illegally collecting VAT are required, and are failing to pay that money collected to a appropriate Government Department within the EU, and please remember, one nominated Customs and Revenue Department for a Single Government in the EU, can act as the collection agent for all Countries within the EU. Then make a formal complaint to HMCR.

 

But please be aware, that by circumventing paying VAT, on goods or services, could lead to HMCR, contacting you and requesting back payment. For knowingly circumventing paying appropriate VAT due. And if Canada also has a Reciprocal Agreement, then Businesses there, could face themselves coming into the same situation as Groundspeak.

 

Oh and not every US cacher, pays or has paid $30 for PM, in Washington State, where Groundspeak is located, there is a Local Sales Tax Levied on PM's, so cachers resident there have been paying more for their PM's without screaming about it.

 

So have a rant about poor communication, because that is the cause of your angst. But if your going to rant about VAT being charged, then your just condoning Google and Starbucks efforts to avoid paying UK Taxes, and if/when the exchange rate is in your favour, don't forget to thank Groundspeak for locking you in at a fixed rate, so they take the loss.

 

Groundspeak Staff work their socks off for your benefit, it is poor communication which lets them down.

 

Dave

Mancunain Pyrocacher

Personal Opinion before anyone comments!

 

Dave, for someone who has repeatedly raved against the tyranny of Garmin and their attitude to cachers due to their business practices this is somewhat hypocritical.

 

Groundspeak chose to make the transaction in local currency, we used to pay in $ and WE took the financial risk of fluctuating rates. So it is spurious to explain that they are being lovely to us to risk their profits. They have factored in a extra cushion already to cover themselves and it means that for a while if not for a long while they are going to be making extra.

They have changed the wording from "continue to renew" to ensure that anyone who just renewed each year cannot keep their fixed price.

If they are paying VAT in this country then let them show us their VAT number so that we know there is nothing underhand going on.

If not then it certainly appears to be a cynical attempt to justify a jump in prices.

 

It has been pointed out that the American market can effectively utilise the game slightly more due to a few different cache types that are not available outside the USA.

 

Whilst a promise made ten years ago to never increase the prices was naive in the extreme, it was a promise none the less. The way that they have just changed that for everyone, except the USA, is what has caused the problem.

 

We are back to the good old days when Jeremy played HIS game HIS way and to heck with anyone who didn't agree. The fact that our reviewers are supporting it is adding insult to injury, personal opinion or not you are the longest standing reviewer and are outspoken when the likes of Garmin treat the caching community with disdain and disrespect yet seem to support Groundspeak when they do the same. You can't have it both ways.

 

If they need more money to make it a viable company then they should be honest and apply the price hike to the ENTIRE community and tell us that they are doing it. People might grumble a bit but would be happy to pay an increase to continue to enjoy the hobby.

 

Matt I expressed a personal opinion, it is up to Groundspeak to full explain all the background, and why specific decisions were made, in regards to pricing in Local Currency. Again I'll point out, it is a communication issue. In that Groundspeak appear to have decided not to fully explain the reasoning behind the decision over charging in Local Currency. How much of the increase is actually VAT? and How much is Currency Charge, which is locked in, whatever the value of Sterling. So whilst they might be covering costs today, there is no guarantee that they will tomorrow or the next day. Because the value of currency bounces every day.

 

So how much is actually a increase on PM, it would appear you have the cost of PM in Sterling plus, Currency Exchange Fee, plus VAT charged at UK rate. So please point out how the actual cost of a PM has risen, when the Currency Exchange Fee and VAT are removed?

 

The moans are about Currency Exchange Fee and VAT being added, not PM being increased. VAT they could not avoid, so lets get things correct, the Moans are about the Currency Exchange Fee, being added due to the change to billing in local currency. So if the exchange rate meant PM cost of $30 in Sterling was £25, then vat on £25 would then be added. Instead it is locked down, and will only change with a change in VAT.

 

You know full well that as a Reviewer, any explanation, by Groundspeak remains confidential, so all I can comment on, is information in the public domain. So if you believe I'm" hypocritical" so be it, Groundspeak are the ones to provide a full detailed explanation, because I can't due to the confidentiality placed on me.

 

As for Garmin, well a Employee made a not so supportive post, which all of a sudden seems to have disappeared. Maybe Garmin don't want the facts out there!

 

Dave

[+MartyBartfast]

So whilst they might be covering costs today, there is no guarantee that they will tomorrow or the next day. Because the value of currency bounces every day.

 

Yes, I see that; because there's no way they are going to increase the cost if the exchange rate changes because as we know once they've given a promise they would never go back on it would they?

 

A couple of the things that particularly bug me are the outright duplicitous way they've gone about this.

 

If you (in the UK) follow the link to the Premium signup page here http://www.geocaching.com/premium/ it says it's gonna cost you $30, as does any promtional stuff they have anywhere. It's only when you click through to pay that it changes from $ to £, with no explanation. There's nothing anywhere to say that VAT will be added, or that they're gonna chuck on a few quid to cover their costs. This is tantamount to going to Tesco where the price on the shelf says £20, but once the girl puts it through the till you get charged £25, with no explanation.

 

They had a long-standing promise to not increase the charges to people who kept renewing their membership. Now I can't say for sure (but I could probably find out), however I've seen several people who's word I trust say that the wording has only recently been changed to say that this only applies to automatic renewals.

 

They recently sent the word out (I think it was in an Email or newsletter) telling people who had an automatically renewing membership to cancel it and set up a new one - what was that about if not to break everyone out of their locked in price?

 

As for them taking on the burden of the exchange rate, what about those Europeans who don't have the Euro, but are being forced to pay in Euros for PM, so GS are taking on the burden of the Euro<->Dollar exchange rate and stinging the punter for it, the punter then has to pay in their own currency and therefore bear the burden of the local currency<->Euro exchange rate so they get stung twice!

 

As for your statement above about HMRC coming after us if we were to use a website belonging to a terra based aquatic predatorial fishz organisation then that would be GS' problem not ours it's up to them to collect the VAT, and as we have no idea how much we're actually paying for the service, for the VAT, for the exchange rate, or for GS' little fiddle how can we be held responsible for them not collecting the VAT?

 

Note I daren't mention the organisation in the previous comment as GS have been deleting posts mentioning them on the other thread even though this is an official GC partner.

 

To be brutally honest I don't care about the extra cost, it's only a couple of pence a day, and there are too many ways to avoid paying it anyway if I can be bothered and if I think it will be cost effective to spend my time doing so. What I care about is the shabby way GS went about it and then just seem to have closed the curtains, turned the light off, and hid behind the sofa hoping that all the nasty customers will get bored and go away.

 

If you can't add anything useful to the discussion due to "confidentiality" how about getting someone from GS out from behind the sofa who can say something?

[nobby.nobbs]

 

Matt I expressed a personal opinion, it is up to Groundspeak to full explain all the background, and why specific decisions were made, in regards to pricing in Local Currency. Again I'll point out, it is a communication issue. In that Groundspeak appear to have decided not to fully explain the reasoning behind the decision over charging in Local Currency. How much of the increase is actually VAT? and How much is Currency Charge, which is locked in, whatever the value of Sterling. So whilst they might be covering costs today, there is no guarantee that they will tomorrow or the next day. Because the value of currency bounces every day.

 

So how much is actually a increase on PM, it would appear you have the cost of PM in Sterling plus, Currency Exchange Fee, plus VAT charged at UK rate. So please point out how the actual cost of a PM has risen, when the Currency Exchange Fee and VAT are removed?

 

The moans are about Currency Exchange Fee and VAT being added, not PM being increased. VAT they could not avoid, so lets get things correct, the Moans are about the Currency Exchange Fee, being added due to the change to billing in local currency. So if the exchange rate meant PM cost of $30 in Sterling was £25, then vat on £25 would then be added. Instead it is locked down, and will only change with a change in VAT.

 

You know full well that as a Reviewer, any explanation, by Groundspeak remains confidential, so all I can comment on, is information in the public domain. So if you believe I'm" hypocritical" so be it, Groundspeak are the ones to provide a full detailed explanation, because I can't due to the confidentiality placed on me.

 

As for Garmin, well a Employee made a not so supportive post, which all of a sudden seems to have disappeared. Maybe Garmin don't want the facts out there!

 

Dave

 

I would assume that you have not been privy to any inner thoughts of Jeremy and all regarding the actual circumstances because if you were and still speculated, as you are doing, about what the financial reasons are for Groundspeak to undertake this action then it would make your post pointless.

 

Why speculate if you know and why speculate to provide excuses for the organisation if you don't know? regardless of how many times you say what you post under this name is personal people will obviously take it as a comment by a reviewer because the reviewers base much of their work on their own personality and with their intimate knowledge of the background work being taken by Groundspeak.

 

It still stands that GS decided to take on the financial risk by changing the way we pay from $ to local currency. No one had complained and asked for it to change so they did a business model and decided that it was what they wanted, this business model would have included the increase in financial exposure due to the money markets. So GS has used it as a way to increase the cost so that they can claim a buffer zone for potential fluctuations.

 

The adding on of VAT, if it is being collected and paid into the coffers of some government agency somewhere in the EU then why haven't they come forward and provided a simple VAT number to prove as such? At the moment it would appear that they have made up an excuse that they thought would make people shut up. Unfortunately people have called their bluff and their silence only adds to the circumstantial evidence that they aren't paying it.

 

To think a major international company deciding on a whim to change their business practice and focus on a model that brings extra money into their bank regardless of how bad it looks and how annoyed it makes their customers. I'm sure I remember someone repeatedly making comments on several forums about a company doing this....

[nobby.nobbs]

Dave to cut to the chase.

 

If you haven't seen actual evidence that GS are doing everything legitimately and above board then you do not know that it is purely a communication problem.

 

On the assumption that you haven't then you shouldn't post in such an authoritative manner in your personal or reviewer account because there will be some that will take it as official news regardless.

 

Personal opinion is all well and good but the lines are blurred and you should know better than to risk exposing yourself to criticism should what you said turn out to be wrong.

[+AmayaTom]

 

Yet you have a Small American Company, who is fully complying with legislation and collecting and paying VAT are required by Reciprocal Trade Agreements, between the US and EU, something which was enacted in 2002 . And they get ripped to pieces, over charging and collecting the appropriate VAT.

>> If this has been in place since 2002, why are they putting up the prices in 2013?

 

Fair enough Communication could have been better, but the major grumble is over how much PM's have gone up. Groundspeak have admitted that they have included a Currency Brokerage Fee, and due to the fluctuating nature of Currencies, if things go the other way, they will get a stung for a loss on each transaction. So a case of swings and roundabouts.

>> I have been paying my yearly renewal with an USD credit card for a number of years. I could also pay in USD with Paypal as can almost any other UK cacher. I am perfectly happy to continue paying in USD and not pay unnecessary fees for something I don't need.

 

But please be aware, that by circumventing paying VAT, on goods or services, could lead to HMCR, contacting you and requesting back payment. For knowingly circumventing paying appropriate VAT due. And if Canada also has a Reciprocal Agreement, then Businesses there, could face themselves coming into the same situation as Groundspeak.

>> By delaying your renewal for a month, it hits GS in the pocket, but there is nothing illegal in that. I am however aware of what you are getting at.

 

Oh and not every US cacher, pays or has paid $30 for PM, in Washington State, where Groundspeak is located, there is a Local Sales Tax Levied on PM's, so cachers resident there have been paying more for their PM's without screaming about it.

>> That's because it has probably been a rise of a couple of %, not an astronomic hike. As you said before, the law has been in place since 2002, why are the prices going up 11 years later?

 

Groundspeak Staff work their socks off for your benefit, it is poor communication which lets them down.

>> Poor communication? That's a bit like saying the Captain of the Costa Concordia was a little poor at steering. The problem is more fundamental about that. The Abysmal communication is down to a complete disrespect for their customers. How do you justify GS suggesting people cancel their auto Paypal renewing without telling them the price will go up if they do?

 

Dave

Mancunain Pyrocacher

Personal Opinion before anyone comments!

 

Dave, I have a lot of respect for what you do as a reviewer [apart from when you wander around in public in that skirt you have ], but on this subject you are way out of touch with he grass roots. When a company continues to show such contempt for their customers, they are on a slippery slope.

[+AmayaTom]

 

Worth pointing out that according to my own memory and of others on the forum, GS promised that whilst you renewed your membership, they would never raise the price. For people that auto-renewed with Paypal (which keeps them locked in to the old price), GS are asking people to cancel the agreement, without telling them that if they do, the price will go up when they renew the new way (very underhand).

 

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20050829125729/http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe/

[+wrightexplorers]

In response to some of the points above:

 

1. VAT may have been due since 2002 and it sounds like GS were non-compliant with VAT legislation for a number of years. Now that they've been found out they're having to charge VAT. Perhaps we should consider ourselves lucky that they haven't had to pay VAT they should have charged us, as then costs would have gone up further or GS might have gone out of business.

 

2. Paying with a USD credit card or paypal does not change the fact that you're a UK resident, consuming the product in the UK. Therefore UK VAT applies.

 

3. As far as the Americans paying less is concerned, watch this space. On 6 May the US Senate passed a bill that would make online retailers subject to sales taxes. Whether this will apply to GS remains to be seen, but it would put the base cost up for US consumers, as well as the admin costs for them or for all of us.

[+MartyBartfast]

In response to some of the points above:

 

2. Paying with a USD credit card or paypal does not change the fact that you're a UK resident, consuming the product in the UK. Therefore UK VAT applies.

 

 

The point about paying in USD isn't about paying the VAT or not, it's about GS now forcing us to pay in £ (or Euros), but them paying the currency conversion charge and charging it back to us, plus a bit extra "just in case", when most of us have been happy all along to pay in USD and make our own arrangements to cover the currency conversion and which now results in some people taking a double hit - but GS still pocket that little extra fiddle factor the added on!

[+wrightexplorers]

In response to some of the points above:

 

2. Paying with a USD credit card or paypal does not change the fact that you're a UK resident, consuming the product in the UK. Therefore UK VAT applies.

 

 

The point about paying in USD isn't about paying the VAT or not, it's about GS now forcing us to pay in £ (or Euros), but them paying the currency conversion charge and charging it back to us, plus a bit extra "just in case", when most of us have been happy all along to pay in USD and make our own arrangements to cover the currency conversion and which now results in some people taking a double hit - but GS still pocket that little extra fiddle factor the added on!

 

Fair enough. £23.99 would equate to $29.99 at 1.5 + VAT, so GS are definitely making a quid or two out of us by switching to Sterling.

[+Delta68]

 

The point about paying in USD isn't about paying the VAT or not, it's about GS now forcing us to pay in £ (or Euros), but them paying the currency conversion charge and charging it back to us, plus a bit extra "just in case",

 

Have you tried this?

 

I renewed my PM last week expecting to have to pay £24.99 and I got charged $29.99

 

 

I'd say, get and renew asap and set up an auto renewal while it's still a mess!

 

Mark

[+Happy Humphrey]

But please be aware, that by circumventing paying VAT, on goods or services, could lead to HMCR, contacting you and requesting back payment. For knowingly circumventing paying appropriate VAT due. And if Canada also has a Reciprocal Agreement, then Businesses there, could face themselves coming into the same situation as Groundspeak.

I think that you mean if you contacted Groundspeak and agreed that you wouldn't get charged VAT, then you could (in theory) be required by HMRC to pay the missing amount to Groundspeak later. Although Groundspeak could be prosecuted for this arrangement too: it's like a builder arranging with you not to charge VAT as long as you agree to pay cash. I doubt that Groundspeak would agree to this, even if you offered to drop by when in Seattle and hand over the pound coins in person.

 

As for your statement above about HMRC coming after us if we were to use a website belonging to a terra based aquatic predatorial fishz organisation then that would be GS' problem not ours it's up to them to collect the VAT, and as we have no idea how much we're actually paying for the service, for the VAT, for the exchange rate, or for GS' little fiddle how can we be held responsible for them not collecting the VAT?

Although I have my doubts, you could easily test this by asking for a VAT receipt, which would show exactly the amount of VAT charged. They'd have this easily available as they need to use it to reclaim the VAT from HMRC. I don't think that Groundspeak can legally refuse such a request (you'd need the VAT receipt to reclaim the VAT), nor can they delay unduly.

 

It looks like Groundspeak are also obliged to display their VAT registration number on their website, according to the UK's E-Commerce Regulations (2002). So we should easily be able to check this: although, oddly, I can't spot their VAT number anywhere I've checked.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Happy Humphrey

[+MartyBartfast]

Although I have my doubts, you could easily test this by asking for a VAT receipt, which would show exactly the amount of VAT charged. They'd have this easily available as they need to use it to reclaim the VAT from HMRC. I don't think that Groundspeak can legally refuse such a request (you'd need the VAT receipt to reclaim the VAT), nor can they delay unduly.

 

It looks like Groundspeak are also obliged to display their VAT registration number on their website, according to the UK's E-Commerce Regulations (2002). So we should easily be able to check this: although, oddly, I can't spot their VAT number anywhere I've checked.

 

That's what I thought originally, and said as much on the other thread, however according to the VOES regs they have no obligation to provide a VAT receipt, or even to state what rate they're charging. I did have a look on HMRC at one point which confirmed that, but don't remember seeing that they are obliged to display their VAT number anywhere, but will have a look at the out-law page later.

[team tisri]

Although I have my doubts, you could easily test this by asking for a VAT receipt, which would show exactly the amount of VAT charged. They'd have this easily available as they need to use it to reclaim the VAT from HMRC. I don't think that Groundspeak can legally refuse such a request (you'd need the VAT receipt to reclaim the VAT), nor can they delay unduly.

 

It looks like Groundspeak are also obliged to display their VAT registration number on their website, according to the UK's E-Commerce Regulations (2002). So we should easily be able to check this: although, oddly, I can't spot their VAT number anywhere I've checked.

 

That's what I thought originally, and said as much on the other thread, however according to the VOES regs they have no obligation to provide a VAT receipt, or even to state what rate they're charging. I did have a look on HMRC at one point which confirmed that, but don't remember seeing that they are obliged to display their VAT number anywhere, but will have a look at the out-law page later.

 

Withotu spending an age reading these regulations it does seem bizarre that a government would create a law that requires non-resident businesses to charge tax but spares them the need to identify the tax on their invoices or indeed provide a registration number to its customers.

 

My company in the UK provides VAT registration information on all its invoices with the VAT element clearly identifiable. That allows VAT-registered businesses to reclaim the VAT and anyone to verify that the company is actually registered for VAT. Without that information anyone could increase their profit margins by 20% by simply adding "+ VAT" to the end of their price list and keep the money.

 

For the first time in many years I'm seriously considering letting my premium membership lapse. I don't care overly much about an extra couple of quid a year but do care about a company treating me like a walking wallet that has little choice but to play their game their way. Groundspeak need us more than we need them, and I'm starting to think it might be a good time to remind them of that.

[+The Growler]

Groundspeak need to tell us what the changes are, the reasons behind it, and how it will effect us. If everything is above board and there is no price gouging then I am happy. I am not happy with Premium v Non-premium anyway but I understand that they use non premium as bait for premium membership and that is a commercial decision that whilst I don't like, I understand the business sense of.

My understanding of VAT is that you must provide a breakdown so that it can be reclaimed by VAT registered businesses (I get a VAT receipt at Amazon and even at MacDonalds in my business as a professional couch potato consultancy).

I pay for goods in US dollars happily, but if regulations have changed and I need to pay in Sterling then fine. Tell me why I have to and tell me why it isn't a straight £ to $ conversion.

[+The Blorenges]

Groundspeak need to tell us what the changes are, the reasons behind it, and how it will effect us. If everything is above board and there is no price gouging then I am happy. I am not happy with Premium v Non-premium anyway but I understand that they use non premium as bait for premium membership and that is a commercial decision that whilst I don't like, I understand the business sense of.

My understanding of VAT is that you must provide a breakdown so that it can be reclaimed by VAT registered businesses (I get a VAT receipt at Amazon and even at MacDonalds in my business as a professional couch potato consultancy).

I pay for goods in US dollars happily, but if regulations have changed and I need to pay in Sterling then fine. Tell me why I have to and tell me why it isn't a straight £ to $ conversion.

 

I rather doubt that you'll get any more clarification from Groundspeak here, in these forums - They've given no more information over in the longer discussion topic on this matter.

 

I suggest you send your questions to them by email - contact@geocaching.com

 

(Then come back and let us know the answers.)

 

 

MrsB

[team tisri]

Groundspeak need to tell us what the changes are, the reasons behind it, and how it will effect us. If everything is above board and there is no price gouging then I am happy. I am not happy with Premium v Non-premium anyway but I understand that they use non premium as bait for premium membership and that is a commercial decision that whilst I don't like, I understand the business sense of.

My understanding of VAT is that you must provide a breakdown so that it can be reclaimed by VAT registered businesses (I get a VAT receipt at Amazon and even at MacDonalds in my business as a professional couch potato consultancy).

I pay for goods in US dollars happily, but if regulations have changed and I need to pay in Sterling then fine. Tell me why I have to and tell me why it isn't a straight £ to $ conversion.

 

I rather doubt that you'll get any more clarification from Groundspeak here, in these forums - They've given no more information over in the longer discussion topic on this matter.

 

I suggest you send your questions to them by email - contact@geocaching.com

 

(Then come back and let us know the answers.)

 

 

MrsB

 

If the linked thread is anything to go by you still won't get any sense from Groundspeak.

[+Happy Humphrey]

My company in the UK provides VAT registration information on all its invoices with the VAT element clearly identifiable. That allows VAT-registered businesses to reclaim the VAT and anyone to verify that the company is actually registered for VAT. Without that information anyone could increase their profit margins by 20% by simply adding "+ VAT" to the end of their price list and keep the money.

Exactly: this is why it's illegal to charge VAT without providing a VAT number.

My company reclaims VAT on purchases, but I can only do that where I have a receipt with the VAT number on it (the amount of VAT doesn't have to be specified, although it normally is, but the VAT number has to appear). If I was to run an outdoor activity company which did geocaching I'd be reclaiming the VAT I paid for Groundspeak membership as a matter of course. If Groundspeak didn't give me a VAT number but claimed that they were charging me VAT I'd report them immediately, no question.

[+MartyBartfast]

 

Exactly: this is why it's illegal to charge VAT without providing a VAT number.

My company reclaims VAT on purchases, but I can only do that where I have a receipt with the VAT number on it (the amount of VAT doesn't have to be specified, although it normally is, but the VAT number has to appear). If I was to run an outdoor activity company which did geocaching I'd be reclaiming the VAT I paid for Groundspeak membership as a matter of course. If Groundspeak didn't give me a VAT number but claimed that they were charging me VAT I'd report them immediately, no question.

 

I'm not trying to defend G$ here HH as I'm pretty cheesed off about this as well, and my first post on the other thread was along the same lines lines but it appears they are NOT required to issue a VAT receipt or a registration number under the VOES scheme :-

 

20.31 Must I issue VAT invoices?

 

It is common practice for businesses supplying electronically supplied services to issue electronically an invoice or similar document which confirms the details of the sale. There are no special rules for issuing VAT invoices under the special scheme and consequently the normal rules apply. In the UK you are not required to issue VAT invoices for such supplies because your customers are not in business for the purposes of the special scheme and cannot deduct VAT on their purchases.

 

My bold. I have considered a query to HMRC but don't have time at the mo, might do when my renewal comes around though.

 

Details from the HMRC site here:

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD1_029955&propertyType=document#P1240_160886

[+Happy Humphrey]

I'm not trying to defend G$ here HH as I'm pretty cheesed off about this as well, and my first post on the other thread was along the same lines lines but it appears they are NOT required to issue a VAT receipt or a registration number under the VOES scheme :-

Well spotted, I was wondering who'd be the first to notice that!

 

I wasn't aware of that special scheme. It appears that Groundspeak can register with the UK and make declarations to them of the amount of VAT charged to every EU customer, pay the UK HMRC and HMRC will sort it out with the other countries. Still sounds a bit of an admin nightmare, but I suppose that's what you take on when trying to run an international business.

 

I'd have thought that to protect themselves from accusations of simply hiking up the price and claiming it to be "VAT", they'd proudly display their VAT registration number. Then anyone can check that they actually do as they say they do.

[team tisri]

I'm not trying to defend G$ here HH as I'm pretty cheesed off about this as well, and my first post on the other thread was along the same lines lines but it appears they are NOT required to issue a VAT receipt or a registration number under the VOES scheme :-

Well spotted, I was wondering who'd be the first to notice that!

 

I wasn't aware of that special scheme. It appears that Groundspeak can register with the UK and make declarations to them of the amount of VAT charged to every EU customer, pay the UK HMRC and HMRC will sort it out with the other countries. Still sounds a bit of an admin nightmare, but I suppose that's what you take on when trying to run an international business.

 

I'd have thought that to protect themselves from accusations of simply hiking up the price and claiming it to be "VAT", they'd proudly display their VAT registration number. Then anyone can check that they actually do as they say they do.

 

That's what I'd have thought too, especially since in one of the posts on the other thread Bryan said something to the effect of they were looking into whether they were allowed to disclose their registration number and would do so if it were permitted. Now they seem to be taking a stance that they are not required to disclose it and therefore won't be disclosing it.

 

I'm still wondering how many European geocachers will not renew their memberships and how many will mysteriously move to Delaware. It's almost worth setting up an operation in Delaware offering premium memberships to Europeans for $33 or some such.

 

I still don't understand why the EU would create a scheme that gives foreign businesses an easy opportunity to hike the prices by 20%, claim it's because of VAT, decline to itemise the VAT on their invoices or disclose a registration number, and then just keep the extra 20%. Just what would HMRC do if Groundspeak were to simply hike their prices by 20% and never hand over the money they told us was VAT?

[+The Growler]

I'm up for a fight (or at least seeing justice being done) so will be emailing HMRC about the whole thing. It seems that foreign companies not paying tax in the UK is a hot topic at the moment.

[nobby.nobbs]

 

I still don't understand why the EU would create a scheme that gives foreign businesses an easy opportunity to hike the prices by 20%, claim it's because of VAT, decline to itemise the VAT on their invoices or disclose a registration number, and then just keep the extra 20%. Just what would HMRC do if Groundspeak were to simply hike their prices by 20% and never hand over the money they told us was VAT?

 

Probably because the person who wrote it doesn't really understand the real world.

[+geralduscambrensis]

I recently renewed my premium member subscription and had to pay £24.99.. after paying a lot less in dollars before. One very minor consolation was finding a link for a free month if you owned a Garmin. So I have 13 months subscription for my £25.But it still leaves it bad taste in the wallet.

 

Perhaps if you can manage without logging premium caches a group could be formed with one premium member supplying the ordinary members/subscribers with the PQ's they require.[]

[+MartyBartfast]

 

Perhaps if you can manage without logging premium caches a group could be formed with one premium member supplying the ordinary members/subscribers with the PQ's they require.[]

 

That's against the T's & C's you agreed to when you signed up as a Premium member not saying it doesn't happen though .

Edited May 30, 2013 by MartyBartfast

[team tisri]

I recently renewed my premium member subscription and had to pay £24.99.. after paying a lot less in dollars before. One very minor consolation was finding a link for a free month if you owned a Garmin. So I have 13 months subscription for my £25.But it still leaves it bad taste in the wallet.

 

Perhaps if you can manage without logging premium caches a group could be formed with one premium member supplying the ordinary members/subscribers with the PQ's they require.[]

 

That's a breach of the terms, but it doesn't seem hugely far-fetched to imagine groups of people in a similar area sharing a premium membership, sharing the pocket queries and simply keeping their own records so they know what each of them have really found.

 

It's a bit of a faff but since so much of geocaching seems to be about using third-party applications to overcome the inadequacies of the web site I'm surprised it isn't springing up. For as long as Groundspeak played the role of a bunch of friends behind a fun game it's easy to see why people supported them but now it seems they've just become another faceless corporation pretending to be "one of the lads".