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Different prices of Premium Membership


Tschakko
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This is no different than any other company. For example cost of a H&M sweater in Paris: 30 euro, in NYC: 30 dollars, in Tokyo: 3,000 yen, in Seoul 30,000 Won

The Korean won is worth less than the euro, dollars or yen so you can save a bunch of money if you shop in Meyongdong over champ de elysees, 5th ave or Shinjuku. It's not discrimination. Or maybe it is but all company's do it so you can't single out GS for this.

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You're talking about phisical products that have different logistic costs. How does it cost to GS to change the expiry date of my PM subscription? I guess it costs the same to change the same atribute to a PM membership in any place where € and £ are not the official currencies.

 

However it's positive that you agree there's a discrimination from GS in this subject. That's the main issue, here in this topic.

 

For the other products I can easily choose another company to buy from the products I need - except in geocaching and that's why GS is abusing its position in the market.

 

As said several times in this topic, GS can raise the price if needed but use the same base price to everyone, and charge vat as required and detail everything in the invoice. Even the non business customers or the final consumers, if you prefer, needs to know that a vat registration exists from whom is charging the vat amount. It's their way to know that their money is being correctly taken as vat and not as a suspicious and discriminatory raise in the subscription fee.

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To summarize:

 

- It is illegal to charge VAT without an invoice where VAT is shown.

 

Please correct me, if I am wrong...

 

The HMRC states:

 

"It is common practice for businesses supplying electronically supplied services to issue electronically an invoice or similar document which confirms the details of the sale. There are no special rules for issuing VAT invoices under the special scheme and consequently the normal rules apply. In the UK you are not required to issue VAT invoices for such supplies because your customers are not in business for the purposes of the special scheme and cannot deduct VAT on their purchases."

 

As an example, Amazon Web Services states that they do not provide tax invoices under the simplified scheme that Groundspeak uses.

 

"Amazon Web Services, Inc. is required to charge value added taxes (VAT) on sales of Amazon Web Services to private (non-business) European Union customers. All VAT collected from customers in the European Union will be paid to the tax authority of the appropriate EU member state. Please be advised that Amazon Web Services, Inc. is registered for EU VAT under the Electronically Supplied Services (ESS) simplified VAT registration regime. As a result, Amazon Web Services, Inc. cannot issue tax invoices. For additional information regarding the simplified VAT registration regime, please visit HM Revenue & Customs VAT on e-Services."

Edited by geodarts
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To summarize:

 

- It is illegal to charge VAT without an invoice where VAT is shown.

 

Please correct me, if I am wrong...

 

The HMRC states:

 

"It is common practice for businesses supplying electronically supplied services to issue electronically an invoice or similar document which confirms the details of the sale. There are no special rules for issuing VAT invoices under the special scheme and consequently the normal rules apply. In the UK you are not required to issue VAT invoices for such supplies because your customers are not in business for the purposes of the special scheme and cannot deduct VAT on their purchases."

 

As an example, Amazon Web Services states that they do not provide tax invoices under the simplified scheme that Groundspeak uses.

 

"Amazon Web Services, Inc. is required to charge value added taxes (VAT) on sales of Amazon Web Services to private (non-business) European Union customers. All VAT collected from customers in the European Union will be paid to the tax authority of the appropriate EU member state. Please be advised that Amazon Web Services, Inc. is registered for EU VAT under the Electronically Supplied Services (ESS) simplified VAT registration regime. As a result, Amazon Web Services, Inc. cannot issue tax invoices. For additional information regarding the simplified VAT registration regime, please visit HM Revenue & Customs VAT on e-Services."

 

And, there you have it.

Perhaps all these people can use the extra time they have after they quit geocaching in protest, to brush up on the tax laws that apply to them. I wonder if they boycott Amazon as well?

 

If I was a ten year premium member, I'd be thinking that at least I got away without paying the tax for ten years. Too bad that free ride is over.

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And, there you have it.

Perhaps all these people can use the extra time they have after they quit geocaching in protest, to brush up on the tax laws that apply to them.

That does seem to resolve the VAT number thing, but the Europeans still have a legitimate beef regarding the higher price (excluding VAT) compared to the rest of the world. The "we're helping you with the exchange rate" statement still doesn't sit right.

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To summarize:

 

- It is illegal to charge VAT in the EU without showing the net price and VAT (exact amount and percentage)

 

As far as I know pricing for the special scheme applying to e-services is commonly displayed as being VAT-inclusive. Some places, like this magazine take a base price and apply the VAT for each country. Thus, their pricing reflects different rates for EU subscriptions, depending on the country where the consumer lives.

 

Groundspeak "simplifies" matters by charging a single inclusive price for all of the EU (excepting Britain). Of course this means that the base price for their services varies by country. The base price for Luxembourg will be approximately 10% more than Sweden (using the VAT percentages in the above link), and both countries will be paying a base rate higher than the United States so that Groundspeak can hedge against various fees applied to their transactions and exchange rates.

 

I do not know any reason why they can't do this as long as the VAT is correctly paid to the EU under the special e-services scheme. But as a company that operates within a community-based game (and in the spirit of their new commitment to improving communication), they certainly could document what is being charged in each country.

Edited by geodarts
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To summarize:

 

- It is illegal to charge VAT without having a public VAT ID from an EU country.

 

Please correct me, if I am wrong...

 

These rules do not necessarily apply to non-EU company providing e-services under the "One Stop Shop" VAT special scheme.

 

Certainly Groundspeak has to have a VAT registration number. But I could not find that either the Amazon Web Services or the Blake magazine (to use the examples cited above) provide this number on their web site.

 

Bryan, however, stated that Groundspeak will provide this if they can do so under the special scheme. I don't know of any reason why Groundspeak could not provide it if they choose to do so, but they have been silent since his post (No. 130).

Edited by geodarts
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This is no different than any other company. For example cost of a H&M sweater in Paris: 30 euro, in NYC: 30 dollars, in Tokyo: 3,000 yen, in Seoul 30,000 Won

The Korean won is worth less than the euro, dollars or yen so you can save a bunch of money if you shop in Meyongdong over champ de elysees, 5th ave or Shinjuku. It's not discrimination. Or maybe it is but all company's do it so you can't single out GS for this.

So if I am by chance in New York, do I pay 30$ or 30€ for the sweat shirt? Will they ask me at the check out, where I'm from to find a price? See the difference?

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So if I am by chance in New York, do I pay 30$ or 30€ for the sweat shirt? Will they ask me at the check out, where I'm from to find a price? See the difference?

 

You will pay US$ 30 + tax and it will not be rounded up, you will be billed the correct amount and not something that "includes all taxes" but is more than a US customer.

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You will pay US$ 30 + tax and it will not be rounded up, you will be billed the correct amount and not something that "includes all taxes" but is more than a US customer.

That's what I thought. On the other hand it's hard to compare prices of physical products in different markets. But that's another story.

 

To come back billing, VAT-registration numbers and the lot. I found two ordinary receipts in my pokets. One from a sports and outdoor store, one from a local supermarket. Neither I do run a sports business nor a grocery shop. But all the important information are given here even on plain receipts at the check out in those shops.

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You will pay US$ 30 + tax and it will not be rounded up, you will be billed the correct amount and not something that "includes all taxes" but is more than a US customer.

That's what I thought. On the other hand it's hard to compare prices of physical products in different markets. But that's another story.

 

To come back billing, VAT-registration numbers and the lot. I found two ordinary receipts in my pokets. One from a sports and outdoor store, one from a local supermarket. Neither I do run a sports business nor a grocery shop. But all the important information are given here even on plain receipts at the check out in those shops.

 

Both of these examples are for physical goods sold within the EU. But as noted above, a non-EU company billing for e-services under VOES is different.

Edited by geodarts
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You will pay US$ 30 + tax and it will not be rounded up, you will be billed the correct amount and not something that "includes all taxes" but is more than a US customer.

That's what I thought. On the other hand it's hard to compare prices of physical products in different markets. But that's another story.

 

To come back billing, VAT-registration numbers and the lot. I found two ordinary receipts in my pokets. One from a sports and outdoor store, one from a local supermarket. Neither I do run a sports business nor a grocery shop. But all the important information are given here even on plain receipts at the check out in those shops.

 

Both of these examples are for physical goods sold within the EU. But as noted above, a non-EU company billing for e-services under VOES is different.

 

Presumably Groundspeak provides a VAT invoice if they sell a cache container to a residential customer in the UK.

1.) My aim was to make plain that it is no big deal to provide the VAT registration number

2.) I doubt that any non-EU company providing digital content and collects EU VAT for that product (in case of EU customers, of course) may refuse to give the information of VAT rate and registration number.

Edited by squirrel42
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We do have creditcards over here and can pay in US$ without a problem. As for bankcharges, there are none for CC payments. The option to pay via Paypal also lets us pay in US$.

If I make a payment in US$ with my card my bank charges me 4%, with a minimum of 1 Euro. So the "discrimination" against me, currently 7% (see below), is reduced to 3%. (Paypal doesn't charge an explicit commission; it just gives me a lousy exchange rate.)

 

Also note that in many European countries, especially Germans, a lot of people do not have credit cards, or debit cards other than the (internationally useless) Maestro.

Bye bye Premium Membership (from Catalonia, Europe). I'm not going to pay more for the same service in US <_<

Spain charges 21% VAT (and I doubt if an independent Catalonia would charge much less). So if the Euro drops below $1.21 you'd be paying less (to Groundspeak, before tax) than Americans do. With the Euro currently at $1.30 that means you're apparently going to give up the benefits of a PM because you're currently paying €2.20 a year more than a bunch of other people whom you've never met. It's up to you, I guess...

 

Here's a little experiment. Go into C&A, or H&M, or another Europe-wide clothes store. Look at the price label in any item. You'll probably find it has different prices for 6 or 7 different countries, including many in the Euro zone. Do you walk out of the store when you see that, because someone in France might be able to buy the same T-shirt for 2 Euros less? Or do you walk round naked in protest at how these evil companies are discriminating against you?

Edited by sTeamTraen
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Here's a little experiment. Go into C&A, or H&M, or another Europe-wide clothes store. Look at the price label in any item. You'll probably find it has different prices for 6 or 7 different countries, including many in the Euro zone. Do you walk out of the store when you see that, because someone in France might be able to buy the same T-shirt for 2 Euros less? Or do you walk round naked in protest at how these evil companies are discriminating against you?

Again, if somebody here in Dortmund, Germany walks into the local C&A or H&M branch, anybody will pay the same price for a specific product, regardless if he's from Germany, France, the US or from Mars. (More, non EU consumers will even pay less, as they are refunded the VAT if they reclaim it.) And I'll get a proper receipt as well, showing all the information we are still missing from Groundspeak. They just claim to be paying VAT now, but they should have the last 10 years. What about that? Will I get a bill from the local tax authorities? Will they really pay VAT from now on? I cannot say, as I haven't seen their VAT number and so I haven't the slightest clue. If you don't care, well, that's up to you.
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Here's a little experiment. Go into C&A, or H&M, or another Europe-wide clothes store. Look at the price label in any item. You'll probably find it has different prices for 6 or 7 different countries, including many in the Euro zone. Do you walk out of the store when you see that, because someone in France might be able to buy the same T-shirt for 2 Euros less? Or do you walk round naked in protest at how these evil companies are discriminating against you?

 

For a lot of people here it seems the issue isn't the difference in price, it's the way Groundspeak appear to want to engage us when it suits them but then expect us to shut up like little children and accept what they tell us when it suits them. In this particular case they've made some very weak-sounding excuses and then disappeared completely.

 

If the price were $30 plus whatever local sales taxes applied that's one thing but Groundspeak were very quiet over questions of whether they could even be legally required to collect European VAT at all, then it appears they "thought long and hard" over whether to charge it (which suggests it's a voluntary issue for them - when my company registered for VAT it was a simple matter of being legally required to do it so no thought process was required at all), then they appeared to have kludged just about everything and claimed it was a "learning curve" for them, and so it went. Along the way they came across as either making it all up as they went along, or utterly incompetent, or potentially looking to charge VAT with no registration and no intention to pass the VAT on to HMRC.

 

So for your comparison purposes, if they'd just come clean and said they were introducing prices in GBP and EUR for European customers a lot of people would have been unhappy (just as many people do get annoyed about items being priced differently in different markets) but I suspect a lot would have just gone ahead and paid it anyway. When they spout lots of fluff about how a price increase is to help us out it's easy to see why people resent being treated like fools.

 

If I encounter a local company that appears to be charging VAT without proper registration you can be sure I'll be passing my concerns on to HMRC. So if I end up concerned that Groundspeak are committing a tax fraud like that (at present it appears to be one of a few possibilities) then you can be sure I'll be treating them just like any other company.

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Hi there!

 

I am also very unhappy about how GS has increased the price for the PM in europe. To pay more money or to pay more taxes is not the problem.

But, that the price increase was not communicated properly and the flimsy reasons such as exchange rate equalization or VAT without an VAT-ID are very weak.

 

As of April 17th, Groundspeak is collecting and remitting VAT on sales of Premium Memberships within the EU. Where applicable, receipts for PM payments will include the statement “VAT Inclusive” going forward. We believe this is the legal requirement we are required to meet. We are registered for VAT via the U.K. under the special scheme for non-EU Businesses and we have an EU Vat Registration Number. We are currently researching whether is it OK for us to provide this number publicly. We do not want to publish the registration number if it is not permitted or if it would cause other issues. For those who question whether we are in fact registered, the best I can do now is to give you my word that it is true. If we can provide more, we will.

 

@Brian:

Do you have new informations? Can you provide a VAT-ID? Or do you still have to do some research wether it is ok? :anibad:

 

For this reason, and if there will be no proper explanation come from GS, I will not renew my PM ​​when the time comes.

 

There are alternative plattforms in europe and the way you handle this situation will cost you customers and will strenghten you local competitors.

 

ka_be

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We do have creditcards over here and can pay in US$ without a problem. As for bankcharges, there are none for CC payments. The option to pay via Paypal also lets us pay in US$.

If I make a payment in US$ with my card my bank charges me 4%, with a minimum of 1 Euro. So the "discrimination" against me, currently 7% (see below), is reduced to 3%. (Paypal doesn't charge an explicit commission; it just gives me a lousy exchange rate.)

 

 

I use Mastercard and what I pay (US$30 for PM) is shown as such on my CC statement. The amount in €uro is at a better rate than if I would change $ to € and there are no surcharges whatsoever. I do pay a fixed amount for my CC no matter if I use it or not but then again, the card covers roadside assistance (for 2 cars), travel insurance, internet fraud insurance and so on. The CC card is cheaper than paying for travel insurance and CDW on rental cars every year. Maybe you need to change banks it they charge you so much :lol:

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Very strange that no lakey is posting while posts are being censored removed.

 

What are they supposed to say? It´s "above" their paygrade... Maybe we should pay another 10,-€ extra so they will get down to us to answer some questions that they do not like...

 

Every country defines "Freedom of Speech" differently. In the US it´s obviously just some words on an old piece of paper thats kept in a museum. Nothing more to it...

Edited by Tschakko
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Every country defines "Freedom of Speech" differently. In the US it´s obviously just some words on an old piece of paper thats kept in a museum. Nothing more to it...

 

Freedom of Speech does not pertain to privately owned internet forums. The forum owner can remove any content they wish not to appear on their site.

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Freedom of Speech does not pertain to privately owned internet forums. The forum owner can remove any content they wish not to appear on their site.

 

Which in this case is: If you do not comply with our thinking then we will censor or delete your comments...

 

In this situation I have to say Groundspeak have an absolute right to decide what content they want on their forum. Freedom of speech is about the government censoring your expression rather than a private company restricting what conduct they consider acceptable.

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Freedom of Speech does not pertain to privately owned internet forums. The forum owner can remove any content they wish not to appear on their site.

Which in this case is: If you do not comply with our thinking then we will censor or delete your comments...

In this situation I have to say Groundspeak have an absolute right to decide what content they want on their forum. Freedom of speech is about the government censoring your expression rather than a private company restricting what conduct they consider acceptable.

I understand that certain things may be censored such es improber words. But to delete posts just because you do not like the critics the writer is filing on you just is not the way to solve this...

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The volunteer moderator team have removed or edited a small number of the more than 400 replies to this topic. (As in, I can count the moderated posts without running out of fingers and toes.) These actions have been to enforce the forum guidelines regarding issues like potty language, links to competing listing sites and off topic posts. No ideas have been "censored" -- otherwise, it would be a far shorter thread!

 

No conclusions about Groundspeak should be drawn from these actions, since the volunteer moderators do not have any additional information to share with you concerning this subject. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion. Thanks!

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Freedom of Speech does not pertain to privately owned internet forums. The forum owner can remove any content they wish not to appear on their site.

Which in this case is: If you do not comply with our thinking then we will censor or delete your comments...

In this situation I have to say Groundspeak have an absolute right to decide what content they want on their forum. Freedom of speech is about the government censoring your expression rather than a private company restricting what conduct they consider acceptable.

I understand that certain things may be censored such es improber words. But to delete posts just because you do not like the critics the writer is filing on you just is not the way to solve this...

 

Again in fairness to Groundspeak they are far more tolerant of posts critical of them and their operations than many companies would be. Try going into your local supermarket and telling every single customer that the prices are too high and they can get a better deal at a rival supermarket and I'll bet it won't be long before you are asked to leave.

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Freedom of Speech does not pertain to privately owned internet forums. The forum owner can remove any content they wish not to appear on their site.

Which in this case is: If you do not comply with our thinking then we will censor or delete your comments...

In this situation I have to say Groundspeak have an absolute right to decide what content they want on their forum. Freedom of speech is about the government censoring your expression rather than a private company restricting what conduct they consider acceptable.

I understand that certain things may be censored such es improber words. But to delete posts just because you do not like the critics the writer is filing on you just is not the way to solve this...

Again in fairness to Groundspeak they are far more tolerant of posts critical of them and their operations than many companies would be. Try going into your local supermarket and telling every single customer that the prices are too high and they can get a better deal at a rival supermarket and I'll bet it won't be long before you are asked to leave.

Well I am not telling their customers that they should go ti a rival supermarket. I am just telling them that they can get a better price at the same supermarket. They just have to order on a different website. And the website I named is an official reseller of G$. So where is there the problem naming those resellers?

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The volunteer moderator team have removed or edited a small number of the more than 400 replies to this topic. (As in, I can count the moderated posts without running out of fingers and toes.) These actions have been to enforce the forum guidelines regarding issues like potty language, links to competing listing sites and off topic posts. No ideas have been "censored" -- otherwise, it would be a far shorter thread!

 

No conclusions about Groundspeak should be drawn from these actions, since the volunteer moderators do not have any additional information to share with you concerning this subject. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion. Thanks!

 

Thanks to you, to explain this problem. Maybe you or another moderator can bring in some informations concerning the real problem, which by the way is really not fair handled up to now. You would have not so many much work with this forum, if the informations to this problem had been more precise, informativ and correct B) (and please excuse my "bad" english)

Edited by Chapeman
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Freedom of Speech does not pertain to privately owned internet forums. The forum owner can remove any content they wish not to appear on their site.

Which in this case is: If you do not comply with our thinking then we will censor or delete your comments...

In this situation I have to say Groundspeak have an absolute right to decide what content they want on their forum. Freedom of speech is about the government censoring your expression rather than a private company restricting what conduct they consider acceptable.

I understand that certain things may be censored such es improber words. But to delete posts just because you do not like the critics the writer is filing on you just is not the way to solve this...

Again in fairness to Groundspeak they are far more tolerant of posts critical of them and their operations than many companies would be. Try going into your local supermarket and telling every single customer that the prices are too high and they can get a better deal at a rival supermarket and I'll bet it won't be long before you are asked to leave.

Well I am not telling their customers that they should go ti a rival supermarket. I am just telling them that they can get a better price at the same supermarket. They just have to order on a different website. And the website I named is an official reseller of G$. So where is there the problem naming those resellers?

 

I have no idea, but ultimately the forum is owned by Groundspeak and if they have a rule that says you're not allowed to mention their resellers by name then you get to either abide by the rule or take the discussion elsewhere.

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The volunteer moderator team have removed or edited a small number of the more than 400 replies to this topic. (As in, I can count the moderated posts without running out of fingers and toes.) These actions have been to enforce the forum guidelines regarding issues like potty language, links to competing listing sites and off topic posts. No ideas have been "censored" -- otherwise, it would be a far shorter thread!

 

No conclusions about Groundspeak should be drawn from these actions, since the volunteer moderators do not have any additional information to share with you concerning this subject. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion. Thanks!

 

So Groundspeak are aware, Groundspeak have sent in the cleaning crew but Groundspeak aren't big enough to justify their actions or answer what are reasonable questions.

I feel sorry for the moderators like you Keystone as you are having to represent a firm that has very little respect for it's customers.

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Some thoughts from a Norte Americano.

Groundspeak does not seem to be doing a good job handling this situation. Hire a lawyer, and a customer service rep who know to handle a situation like this. Major failure.

Questions that have been brought up:

What if the US repeals the "No state sales tax on Internet purchases?" Wouldn't concern me in the slightest. Add the 7% NJ sales tax. Washington state residents are already paying their sales tax.

"What if I buy the $20 tee shirt in NYC?" Then you pay the NY State and NYC sales tax. Or you could drive to a NJ mall ($13 toll at the Lincoln or Holland Tunnels, or $6 round trip on public transportation) but New Jersey does not have sales tax on clothing. Of course, you are required to report 'out-of-state purchases' on your state/city income tax form (as if anyone actually does that...)

With the $.40 - $.60 difference in gas prices, there are people who will pay the toll to fill up in NJ. My co-workers from PA will fill their tanks in NJ because of the $.20 price differential. (Though, of course, they are required to report, and pay the tax differential on their state tax form.) (Yeah! Right!)

We were looking at hiking boots at New Balance in NYC. Small store. Did not have a lot in stock. But, it they had had what we wanted, we would have paid the high NYC sales tax. The New Balance store in NJ is in Bergen County, which has Blue Laws. They are not open on Sundays! If the store in NYC had what we wanted, we would have been happy to pay the NYC sales tax!

The problem here is that Groundspeak is not handling the problem in a logical, nor customer friendly manner.

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What if the US repeals the "No state sales tax on Internet purchases?" Wouldn't concern me in the slightest. Add the 7% NJ sales tax. Washington state residents are already paying their sales tax.

 

Wat if they "round up" the fee. I wouldn't mind (well I would mind but understand why <_< ) GS charging US$30+21%VAT= US$36.3 for PM but I mind that they would charge US$ 39.5 (€30 at today's rate) and claiming this is to make it "easier".

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What if the US repeals the "No state sales tax on Internet purchases?" Wouldn't concern me in the slightest. Add the 7% NJ sales tax. Washington state residents are already paying their sales tax.

 

Wat if they "round up" the fee. I wouldn't mind (well I would mind but understand why <_< ) GS charging US$30+21%VAT= US$36.3 for PM but I mind that they would charge US$ 39.5 (€30 at today's rate) and claiming this is to make it "easier".

 

According to my handy VAT calculator and the Google exchange rate converter, for a €30 inclusive charge you are paying €24.79 for Groundspeak's services (or US $32.70). Without VAT, Luxembourg pays €26.09 (or $34.42). Sweden pays €24 (or $31.66).

 

The monetary differences do not seem significant. Groundspeak would bear some exchange risk or costs, particularly when it transfers the VAT it has collected to the HMRC in pounds. People can decide whether Groundspeak's services are worth the particular price for their country or if there are other principles involved relating to communication, equal pricing, or their pledge not to raise prices for some members. That seems to be the crux of the discussion.

Edited by geodarts
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Good point! Dear Geocaching.com. Please stop issuing premium memberships to people who live in the EU. Do like a lot of American companies and force Europeans to register with an address within the United States. It must be horrible to live in a place where you have to spend pennies more per day than the rest of the world!

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Very strange that no lakey is posting while posts are being censored removed.

 

What are they supposed to say? It´s "above" their paygrade... Maybe we should pay another 10,-€ extra so they will get down to us to answer some questions that they do not like...

 

Every country defines "Freedom of Speech" differently. In the US it´s obviously just some words on an old piece of paper thats kept in a museum. Nothing more to it...

 

Freedom of Speech prevents the American government from telling Groundspeak to delete posts on their website. I love people who can only quote two or three words from a document then try to amaze everyone with their intelligence. Aaaaand I just realized I'm completely off topic. Oh noez I'm gonna cry when this post gets deleted.

Edited by Hysham Pirate
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Good point! Dear Geocaching.com. Please stop issuing premium memberships to people who live in the EU. Do like a lot of American companies and force Europeans to register with an address within the United States. It must be horrible to live in a place where you have to spend pennies more per day than the rest of the world!

Haven't you read the last 9 pages of this discussion? It's not about the price, it's about how Groundspeak communicates the price change - or better, how GS not communicates it.

And it's also about the somewhat fishy reasons they give.

 

I don't know how you get to work, but maybe you go by car. And then you go down the highway and for one or the other reason, the speed limit changes in 2003 from 75 mph to 55 mph. But you keep on traveling at 75, and you are lucky. And then, in 2013, you are caught by the highway patrol and you say: "Well, officer, I thought long and hard, but from now on I'll obey the speed limit." and "No, I won't show you my driving license".

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Good point! Dear Geocaching.com. Please stop issuing premium memberships to people who live in the EU. Do like a lot of American companies and force Europeans to register with an address within the United States. It must be horrible to live in a place where you have to spend pennies more per day than the rest of the world!

Haven't you read the last 9 pages of this discussion? It's not about the price, it's about how Groundspeak communicates the price change - or better, how GS not communicates it.

And it's also about the somewhat fishy reasons they give.

 

I don't know how you get to work, but maybe you go by car. And then you go down the highway and for one or the other reason, the speed limit changes in 2003 from 75 mph to 55 mph. But you keep on traveling at 75, and you are lucky. And then, in 2013, you are caught by the highway patrol and you say: "Well, officer, I thought long and hard, but from now on I'll obey the speed limit." and "No, I won't show you my driving license".

 

I guess he did not read the topic. It´s just one of the very important people that have to insult others to be heard. Not worth the time reading his posts.

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... an now ... nothing left, no one is writing, no answer of GS ...

 

Thanks to GS for the ignoration of their missbehavior and discrimination of the european cachers. ... and don´t feel invited to join events in Europe or be sure to know, that you have to answer questions and you can handle this :)

 

If there is any chance to get rid of this lack of communication skill, it would be a good thing for you.

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... an now ... nothing left, no one is writing, no answer of GS ...

 

Thanks to GS for the ignoration of their missbehavior and discrimination of the european cachers. ... and don´t feel invited to join events in Europe or be sure to know, that you have to answer questions and you can handle this :)

 

If there is any chance to get rid of this lack of communication skill, it would be a good thing for you.

 

Communicating with customers is obviously also something of a learning curve for Groundspeak, and no doubt they are thinking long and hard about whether to consider climbing it at some point.

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Small number? Edited maybe, but everybody having paid attention, noticed how many posts have been removed. I don't know who many fingers and toes you have, but - wow, sure mine wouldn't be enough.

 

The thing is, this is not the only forum this thing is talked about. The local forums also gave discussions about this (and they are not censored). Many don't come here to discus because of the language barrier, so GS is right, it's only a limited amount of EU cachers who complain here, however, it's not a small that complains.

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Small number? Edited maybe, but everybody having paid attention, noticed how many posts have been removed. I don't know who many fingers and toes you have, but - wow, sure mine wouldn't be enough.

I have ten fingers and ten toes. The total number of posts removed from this thread STILL doesn't exceed twenty. You are welcome to advocate your own version of reality to advance a "censorship!" agenda, but my statements are factual and verifiable.

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You can say whatever you want now... Verifiable or not, censored or not, deleted or not. Can't you understand we simply don't care what you say anymore?

You (and by you I mean Groundspeak and co) have been ignoring us for weeks now and all we saw happening from you side is posts getting deleted. So clearly you were monitoring and well aware of the situation but you don't care enough about your (european) customers to join in on the debate.

You consider this respectful? You consider this better comunication?

If there's one thing I have learned during the years, and has been proven again bij this case, it's that Groundspeak DOES NOT WANT TO INTERACT with its users.

I did some sugestions in the past but Groundspeak even doesn't care enough to respond anything. Just plain silence. So I gave up...

And here it's the same story... The let us vent our frustrations and that's it, no interaction.

I'm going to give up on Groundspeak, they will NEVER learn proper comunication!

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Small number? Edited maybe, but everybody having paid attention, noticed how many posts have been removed. I don't know who many fingers and toes you have, but - wow, sure mine wouldn't be enough.

I have ten fingers and ten toes. The total number of posts removed from this thread STILL doesn't exceed twenty. You are welcome to advocate your own version of reality to advance a "censorship!" agenda, but my statements are factual and verifiable.

 

It's not my fight (yet), and I would be (nearly) the last person to accuse you of embellishing the facts...

 

but...

 

Exactly how would someone go about 'verifying' the claim that there are less than twenty 'deleted' posts? :unsure:

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I second the suggestion that European customers are ignored and treated lesser than the American ones. I think Australians also get a fairly poor deal. I'm also still very unhappy that a company I want to deal with is apparently breaking my country's tax laws at least two weeks after they were made aware of it (I've seen no proof to the contrary)

 

But I know enough about IT systems to know that someone with high level access can delete posts from a forum without leaving any trace for normal moderators, so a count claim by a moderator is not necessarily going to be accurate.

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Exactly how would someone go about 'verifying' the claim that there are less than twenty 'deleted' posts? :unsure:

 

I counted 19, and I can tell you that the vast majority were for links to competing sites and inappropriate language. None of these have ever been tolerated in the forums. Some of those I counted were reposts, as the poster tried to post their note multiple times. Those identical posts was removed again and again.

Edited by BlueRajah
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Exactly how would someone go about 'verifying' the claim that there are less than twenty 'deleted' posts? :unsure:

 

I counted 19, and I can tell you that the vast majority were for links to competing sites and inappropriate language. None of these have ever been tolerated in the forums. Some of those I counted were reposts, as the poster tried to post their note multiple times. Those identical posts was removed again and again.

 

Thats fine and I personally believe you. It also would be fine and brillant, if we would get informations about the inaccurat price and not only the correct number of deleted items. I dont need this and there had been posts ... I understand the deletion. What I still do not understand is, why GS still ingnores our questions?!!

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